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Siddy
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Posted - 2004.02.24 12:53:00 -
[1]
my simplest of simple idea is to make big guns Simpply unable to fire at Small targets
it can be done by aplying Signature radius!
all ships got it right?
and frigs got rily small one
so.. make Large guns have minimum signature radius Requaier to shoot
let say 1400mms got abaut 150m
and 800mms only 85m
this way thous lil frigs whuld got a cse and Cruisers whuld get a litle more useful role
720mm whuld require abaut 100m signature
and 400mm only 50m
and frigh whuld got advantage being able to shot down rely small things like missiles and drones
Also solution to hewy drone menance is to make em able to target only 125m signaturet ships
Medium drones abaut 40m signatured
Light whuld then be able to target anything
NOTE! The signature radiuses in this post are offsetted and not accurate.. they are in there to make the picture of pointu that i am after whit this post 
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Fausto
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Posted - 2004.02.24 12:58:00 -
[2]
Why would guns not be able to fire? So that people with interceptors get to save their money? And should we disable big drones from shooting at frigs? Bad idea, jmo.
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<brainpodder> |
Siddy
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Posted - 2004.02.24 13:03:00 -
[3]
Well hey drones Are extramly good ant Cruiser Wepon.... and do decent damage aganst BS too.... then imagine what lil poor frig can do when 10 ogres shoot at it once?
u newer saw Deathstar fiaring Deathra at fighters or even corelian cruisers did?
or any BS's using it Mainguns on small targets?
and when the ammo diameter is almost as big as the firgate its like going whit Bazoka after fly 
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Dan Daro
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Posted - 2004.02.24 13:19:00 -
[4]
This seems like the most sensible suggestion so far. No doubt it would take some time for correct balancing but it should lead to some more creative battleship loadouts than simply pile as many 1400/tachyon/425's as possible. Battleships (and cruisers) would have to look at carrying lower class weapons to protect themselves against the smaller ships. Just as the real life WWI/WWII battleships didn't just have 4 great turrets.
DD
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Admiral IceBlock
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Posted - 2004.02.24 13:21:00 -
[5]
it should all depend on the ships signature, the higher signature, the better chance to hit?
"We brake for nobody"
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Toran Mehtar
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Posted - 2004.02.24 13:29:00 -
[6]
Okay, so frigs are now more protected from bs, but that doesn't immediately make them a good pvp option, as it doesn't make them anymore useful in terms of doing damage, it just means your less likely to die from a lucky shot.
Will this really inspire people to use smaller ships in PvP? I don't think so.
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Admiral IceBlock
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Posted - 2004.02.24 13:32:00 -
[7]
Edited by: Admiral IceBlock on 24/02/2004 13:33:17
i think so, i could then get a force of 5 frigates, all in tristan shooting with light neutron blasters and do a average dmg of 120 each gun...
or use 5 kestrels and do 300 dmg each launcher... or just hunt the pods on the battlefield...
"We brake for nobody"
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Discorporation
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Posted - 2004.02.24 13:33:00 -
[8]
TomB's already stated that shipsize isn't used properly/enough in the 'to hit' factor.
When it does, or is fixed, lets see what happens then
[Heterocephalus glaber]
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Randuin MaraL
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Posted - 2004.02.24 13:40:00 -
[9]
 Quote:
This seems like the most sensible suggestion so far. No doubt it would take some time for correct balancing but it should lead to some more creative battleship loadouts than simply pile as many 1400/tachyon/425's as possible. Battleships (and cruisers) would have to look at carrying lower class weapons to protect themselves against the smaller ships. Just as the real life WWI/WWII battleships didn't just have 4 great turrets.
DD
Right enough, but there are no more than say a handful of HI turret slots. Assume a 5 turret slot BS, it would mount 3 large guns and 2 smaller ones? A 4 turrets BS then 2 + 2? Or 3 + 1 as hunting NPC drones ... that single smaller gun would not make much difference.
I think the current system is well enough. A small fleet of 6 sancha frigates at closest range can keep you busy, the more would a small fleet of frigate pilots. There should not be a guarantee for 6 "200k isk" ships to kill a "90.000k isk ship", but a chance. Maybe 90.000k/(6*200k) gives a chance of 1-2% successful small frigate fleet attacks vs battleships which sounds fair to me
And this is how it is implemented afais. Correct me if I am wrong here.
____________________________________________________
Never be in the company of anyone with whom you would not want to die.
MEDUSA veteran, Khumaak Award winner |
sokkusu
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Posted - 2004.02.24 13:46:00 -
[10]
Quote:
Okay, so frigs are now more protected from bs, but that doesn't immediately make them a good pvp option, as it doesn't make them anymore useful in terms of doing damage, it just means your less likely to die from a lucky shot.
Will this really inspire people to use smaller ships in PvP? I don't think so.
It's true, but if CCP allow fregates target/destroy modules and turrets. it'll be going more interesting. A group of fregates (i say a group not an alone fregate) desable BS weapons should very helpfull for allied cruiser/BS.
just a thought 
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Toran Mehtar
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Posted - 2004.02.24 14:02:00 -
[11]
I don't see the point in making frigates/cruisers tougher just so that they CAN be used in fleet combat.
So five frigates could easily take down a bs? So what, so could five battleships. There need to be more interesting options available to make people want to use them. Specialist mods has to be the way to go.
I admit drones are still a problem. How about mods to set-up cruisers as drone killers?
The frigates try to use their special mods against BS's, drones defend against the frigs, cruisers take out the drones and the BS's batter the crap out of each other and the cruisers.
Just one example of how each class of ship (including drones) has a role in a fleet battle.
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Lomex
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Posted - 2004.02.24 14:09:00 -
[12]
Edited by: Lomex on 24/02/2004 14:09:55
Quote:
u newer saw Deathstar fiaring Deathra at fighters or even corelian cruisers did?
The second Deathstar (minus the obvious weakpoint) was setup to allow partial main cannon bursts at smaller mobile targets. It could only reliably strike capital ships.
In the world of EVE it would be like a Titan having MAHOOSIVE guns with such p**spoor tracking that they can only reliably hit battleships.
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Join in the NEW Sci-Fi Quiz |
Jayad
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Posted - 2004.02.24 16:47:00 -
[13]
Great idea Siddy,
Since this ship class problem was brought into light a month ago i would agree that this is the best solution yet. Indeed it does seem rediculous that L ammo diameters are shockingly large compared to frig targets.
During any pvp using frigates, ive quit bothering to use any shield modifiers or armour mods since in most cases you only have a "1" shot life span. Much more usefull to set up a frig for speed of operation (Hit and run) inorder to flee before shots are fired at you.
The are a few other frigate roles respected people use, most noteably the jammer setup. Simply put: frigates have no real role to fill in combat which i think is a tradgic shame for this GREAT game.
ITS TOO LIMITED, AND NOT RELISTIC
Nothing firm has been mentioned by TomB however i have a feeling hes looking into it
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Deep Spacer
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Posted - 2004.02.24 19:46:00 -
[14]
umm...hello
the whole point of drones and frigates are that they are built to fight eachother
gallente made drones, caldari made frigates to fight the drones (or sumthing like that)
so making drones not able to attack frigates would be a disaster from a RP standpoint.
also big guns have a bit of trouble hitting a high speed close range frigate anyway. dont want ot be hit, then fly really really fast and get in close
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Dexter Rast
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Posted - 2004.02.24 19:54:00 -
[15]
Frigates do have a role in combat, they are very very useful if used correctly, and are an essential part of a fleet, their speed and targeting speed are the main uses,
it is true that you are never going to bring down a battleship on your own in a frigate, but you can cause a battleship enough problems to let your corpmates lay down the hurt on him
Frigates by nature are fragile, but attacking a Battleship in a frigate isnt as difficult as most people think when you are in a fleet battle situation,
Its a good suggestion Siddy about the Sig Rad but i think you have to have a chance of being hit by a big gun even if you are in a frigate, big guns already are pretty useless close in so no need to disable them altogether when attacking a frigate
just my 2p worth
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Jayad
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Posted - 2004.02.24 20:38:00 -
[16]
Hi Dexter :)
Would like to say i have a good respect for your corporation for what members have said in previous posts, especially "s0cks".
Just to reliterate on my post (Which was a bit presumptious) i whole heartedly agree that frigates have a place in pvp, which is why i have risked seeming like a mono-view poster.
I hope you would agree that, where myself, you, or s0cks may have sucess in frig combat, we are experianced players with game knowledge others may not have.
With a large influx of new players i cant help but feel simpathetic. When i was a noob, battleships were still 3months in the future i never had the trouble they are facing now. I want these guys to have as much fun as myself, but most of all i want combat to be diversified that includes them.
Currently frig use is few and far between with most fleets comprising of BATTLESHIPS, most people agree this is boring.
Regards
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Lysender
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Posted - 2004.02.24 23:15:00 -
[17]
Thats why one alone frigate should never go against a battleship. That was fool hardy even in the starwars/sci-fi movies.
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Vel Kyri
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Posted - 2004.02.25 08:29:00 -
[18]
I think this is a great idea...
make each gun class have a "minimum" size target it can hit... if you try to shoot at something smaller - you just miss all the time.
the thing is - frigates SHOULD be basically impossible to hit by battleships using main guns... Which is why you have drones and other frigates in fleets.
If you make frigates impossible to hit with the big guns (and hard to hit with the cruiser guns) then the battleships are forced to
a) use small guns on their slots
b) carry lots of drones)
c) fly with a frigate partner for defense.
all are valid i think - and what we want to see more of.
its not the BATTLESHIP that needs nerfing - its the large guns. Battleships are great as is.
But a single frigate should be able to fly (fast) through an enemy fleet composed solely of battleship pretty easily - as long as they dont have drones or any other frigates around.
Frigates already have a great use in fleet battles (warp jamming, webbing, scouting etc) now make it that the battleships cant get rid of them, so you need the defenders to start also using cruisers/frigates to stop those annoying jammers.
sounds good to me.
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Siddy
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Posted - 2004.02.25 12:11:00 -
[19]
in fleet combat all ships got their role
rigt now Battleships handle all roles.....
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Siddy
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Posted - 2004.02.26 09:08:00 -
[20]
*bumppage*
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Arcane
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Posted - 2004.02.26 10:06:00 -
[21]
Quote:
u newer saw Deathstar fiaring Deathra at fighters or even corelian cruisers did?
Wrong ... it had hundreds of small turrets mounted on the surface to shoot all those fighters getting too close and after all it took like 20+ ships destroyed before one was finally able to deploy the torpedo 
Same applies to the BSs (star destroyers) ... they did shoot fighters on several occasions and only stopped shooting once their own fighters werde launched to avoid killing their own pilots.
To me this looks very similar to how it currently works in EVE:
A big ship can shoot frigs but still, drones or another frig are more reliable in getting rid of them.
Be quick or be dead ... |
Vel Kyri
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Posted - 2004.02.26 12:41:00 -
[22]
it doesn't work that way currently.
you dont see battleship using SMALL lasers to shoot at frigs etc.
what i think we'd like is that different gun sizes have an "optimal" target.
already, small guns are good v frigates, so-so vs cruisers, and pretty useless vs battleship (not enough damage to beat shield recharge)
what we want is that LARGE mount guns basically cant hit frigates, so battleship would need to mount small/med mount guns to take them on - or carry drones.
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Varia
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Posted - 2004.02.26 13:31:00 -
[23]
Quote:
u newer saw Deathstar fiaring Deathra at fighters or even corelian cruisers did?
or any BS's using it Mainguns on small targets?
and when the ammo diameter is almost as big as the firgate its like going whit Bazoka after fly
It's been a while but I do beleive in "Return of the Jedi" the Death Star was infact killing Cruisers with one shot using it's main weapon.
But I would agree that normally battleships would not use it's larger weapons to hit the smaller faster ships but use smaller guns mounted on said battleships to defend agasint such an attack.
But who in their right mind would attack a battleship solo? surely if somebody is going to attack a battleship with frigates you do it with lots.
Women that strive to equal men lack ambition. |
Siddy
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Posted - 2004.02.26 19:24:00 -
[24]
YES!!!!
Optimal range
AND optimal TARGET size !!
u sed it! w00h00
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Siddy
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Posted - 2004.02.26 19:27:00 -
[25]
Quote:
Quote:
But who in their right mind would attack a battleship solo? surely if somebody is going to attack a battleship with frigates you do it with lots.
i am not talkking solo taking BS on Frig..
its impossible no mather what...
but its sittle unfair for friggy that 1400mm even TRAK EM !!!
i mean, Comoon! 1400mms trakking computers are Designet for Big and Medium Targets... they shuld not even Detekt friggy in their targeting oculars
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Lentia
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Posted - 2004.02.26 19:55:00 -
[26]
Who says frigates arenet important in PvP or fleet battles? They are!
Their quick lock times makes them usefull in intiating scrambles and webbs. Plus they are good for scouting and recon. A Kestrel with 4 cruise coming at you aint exactly fun either....
Lentia
Military Officer
http://www.staf.online-guild.com/ |
Wraeththu
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Posted - 2004.02.26 23:03:00 -
[27]
Not that I'm supporting the idea, but the answer isn't always "put smaller guns on the battleship" it could also be "bring your buddy along in a frig or cruiser to run anti-frig defense for you" thereby turning the game into less of a solo game.
For all the good and bad that could/would be.
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TomB: End the speed-race. 1 propulsion mod allowed, make turrets affect ship attributes like +speed/+ab speed +agil for progressivly smaller/lighter turrets, -speed/-ab speed -agil for long-range. |
Siddy
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Posted - 2004.02.27 00:12:00 -
[28]
Edited by: Siddy on 27/02/2004 00:13:27
i myself fly typoon ocasionaly... and find that drones are more than enought to keep friggys at bay....
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Andros Eh'kaar
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Posted - 2004.02.27 01:39:00 -
[29]
hmm if you compare with the deathstar, its actually nice:)
Guns the size to kill planets made crusiers vanish, a comparison of Battleship versus frigate is quite ok there, plus you had bug cruiser guns make fighters vanish, sure had to be a little lucky, but one lucky hit is enough.
hmm youre idea is nice, but i see no sense of relism in there. Why cant 1400mm hit a target thats 10times as big. frigs are 10s of metres long. Sure its alot harder, but if you hit, the effects are far more devastating than on a cruiser, because you take down a whole section of the ship.
I want to see frigates to become alot more useful too, but i think it should be done by implementing some specialist frigates that take some time to train, than by nerfing big guns.
lvl 5 mages dont kill lvl 20 mages in fantasy too. dont wanna see that in EVE, like ppl train 1 month, buy a frig with mods for 500k and are set, and others spend 2months training, even more time spent making money.........
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Elphaba
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Posted - 2004.02.27 02:39:00 -
[30]
While I like the idea that large guns should have a hard time hitting frigates, I don't like the arbitrary "you can't shoot it" mechanic. The BS pilot should always have that lucky shot chance -- it IS a battleship after all. The chance should be small, but exist (probably the current 1% crit chance is just about right)
I suspect that the desired effect could be achieved simply by giving signature vs tracking a larger role in the tohit calc than it has currently.
The way I see it the balance should work out as follows:
1 Frigate well armed and piloted should have a >50% chance to take out a lone BS outfitted for max LR damage (loaded for max effect vs other BSs)
1 BS loaded out to take on Frigates should be nigh invulnerable to Frigates, but be a guarenteed kill for the battleship above. By and large, it should be sorta silly to set up this way, since a Cruiser should be almost as good in the role, and a LOT cheaper.
Cruisers should generally pwn frigates, and generally loose to any sensibly equipped BS.
This way, the fleet that knows the most about it's opponent and best uses that knowledge will win. As opposed to the current system which seems to tend towards the fleet that can field the most BSs wins.
It should be more like Rock/scissors/paper, instead of the current "Rock, Sharp Rock, Flat Rock (scissors and paper are for noobs!)" system.
Rock (BS) is big, expensive, durable, and versitile. But paper (frig) should be able to win unless the BS sets up to kill frigs (making itself an expensive and fat cruiser)
Scissors (cruiser) cuts up paper good, gets crushed by rock. It should be easier for a lone frigate to survive against a normal BS than a normal cruiser.
Paper (frigate) is cheap and fragile, but if given the opportunity can take out 100x it's value in BS should the opponent be silly enough to fly unescorted. (of course, the BS always has the option to play "fat cruiser" in which case, buhbuy frig -- size does have it's advantages)
This should be acomplishable (is that a word?) by simply making signature radius factor into tracking along with transverse velocity. (or factor more, if it is already included)
anyhoo, that's my input, for what it's worth.
"my englisch is wicked" |
Jash Illian
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Posted - 2004.02.27 03:15:00 -
[31]
Quote:
While I like the idea that large guns should have a hard time hitting frigates, I don't like the arbitrary "you can't shoot it" mechanic. The BS pilot should always have that lucky shot chance -- it IS a battleship after all. The chance should be small, but exist (probably the current 1% crit chance is just about right)
Maybe it's different with other gun types but firing a large projectile at a frigate piloted by a mediocre pilot is an exercise in wasting ammo. I've flown circles around cruisers in frigates, taking tolerable damage from their turret weapons. Biggest issue is usually the drones.
I'd suggest frigate 'pilots' sit down and seriously analyze the issue at hand. Large turret weapons, including the 800mm, stand almost zero chance of hitting a frigate at under 1km without outside assistance.
I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather **** my enemy.- Rohann
Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!- Lallante |
Belzavior
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Posted - 2004.02.27 04:17:00 -
[32]
I don't think it should be impossible. But I do think the degree of the shot landed should be determined after the shot actually hits. Seems like if you hit a frig with a Large turret it's a wrecking shot that pretty much kills it.
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PIraten
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Posted - 2004.02.27 07:26:00 -
[33]
final word on the matter..
5 friggs can easy take out a BS as it is now... (has been done more than once)
Take what the 5 frigs cost and what that BS cost.. and u will c that the frigs cost a lot les than that one BS. Not 2 say the tme 2 train al the "bs skills" VS the "frigg skilsss"
And u want the figgs 2 get even better?
HELLO any one home?
Wy should pepole bother train skills, fix money, mine etc etc if a guy after 2-3 weeks can jump into in a frig and take on players that have been here 4 months and months.
HEY wy not let the hole noobie fleet up in empire be so powerfull that it can take over 00 space in friggs...!
Soory if I flame away a bit here but this is so STUPID
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Nimrodel
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Posted - 2004.02.27 10:43:00 -
[34]
Anyone ever played Freespace 2 :P
Huge BS Beams Targeting Small ships
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Nimrodel
Dark Force User
Joint Espionage & Defence Industries
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Your Medium YF-12a Smartbomb hits Rusty Cloud, doing 0.0 damage. |
Reaper Grim
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Posted - 2004.02.27 12:31:00 -
[35]
as a frigate finatic, i have to make a comment here, as it is large guns are not a problem for some one who has chosen to fly frigates, and with the new interceptors, the cost of a frigate is astronomical and the time it takes to train to fly an interceptor isnt much less than battle ships.
a large gun will rarely hit a fly piloted frigate, not that a lone frigat should be out attacking a battle ship.
the problem is heavy drones, these things eat frigates alive, the fact that all battle ships can carry them gives the frigate very little chance, if they made the heavy drones for killing cruisers/battleships and kept light and med drobnes ofr anti frigate duties, that would seem fairer to me, and im sure mixed fleets would appear more.
use to fly battle ships, but got bored of their uberness, and so swapped to frigates for more of a challenge, but have to say that the idea of going after most ships knowing they have a load of heavy drones inside is a daunting idea, and why, should i loose my ship in seconds to automated drones, when it has cost upto 20 million to buy and set up, plus the implants, just because i want to fly somthing a bit faster.
its the drones that need changing, not the guns, as any frigate with half a brain will have their ship moving so fast that the big guns cant hit it. |
Finestaut
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Posted - 2004.02.27 13:25:00 -
[36]
A few BS gun ideas have cropped up in this thread and threads like it, so I'm just gonna do my screaming and moaning here and be done with it:
1: "hull mounted" or "spine mounted" battleship guns that only face forward and don't track.
Would be cool if eve had a different control scheme. As it stands, you almost never point directly at your target, and keeping those guns pointed at a target wouldn't work. This idea was discussed some time ago regarding rockets and torpedos, and the same conclusion was reached. Even if you use the approach command, your ship's nose points just behind the other guy. Even slow moving targets would be able to avoid getting shot by simply moving laterally.
2: Making big guns unable to shoot at frigates, this includes giving minimum and/or optimal sig radius to shoot, or a simple gun-to-ship relationship)
This is not good, this is not necessary, this is silly. As it stands, most battleship guns can't hit a fast-moving frigate worth beans, and most any frigate pilot will tell you, it's not the battleships turrets that are dangerous, it's the drones. If anything needs rebalancing in the frigate vs battleship scenario, it's the fact that 6 heavy drones can fry a frig before it has a chance to attack.
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Ruffles
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Posted - 2004.02.27 14:45:00 -
[37]
Quote:
Randuin MaraL:
Right enough, but there are no more than say a handful of HI turret slots. Assume a 5 turret slot BS, it would mount 3 large guns and 2 smaller ones? A 4 turrets BS then 2 + 2? Or 3 + 1 as hunting NPC drones ... that single smaller gun would not make much difference.
NO. It would then REQUIRE protection. Its a battleship, its gotta be vulnerable to something, and something that expensive should have escourts protecting it. Let your cruisers and frigates protect you, your ship bonuses aren't to small or medium weapons are they. You fit for long range bombardment like you are intended, and let the smaller ships protect you.
I think Siddy said it well. Battleships can do it all, so they don't need anyone else to protect them.
When you make a battleship NEED protection by cruisers/frigates, then you will see them in fleets doing things other then warp scrambling (not that that isn't important, but there are other things we could be doing with them also).
This is quite possibly one of the better ideas I have seen todate about this issue. We had thought about minimum ranges on some weapons, but that wouldn't affect their hit chance.
Whilst the details siddy put in were just examples, its a very fine basic idea. 
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Ruffles
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Posted - 2004.02.27 14:51:00 -
[38]
Quote:
Jash:
I'd suggest frigate 'pilots' sit down and seriously analyze the issue at hand. Large turret weapons, including the 800mm, stand almost zero chance of hitting a frigate at under 1km without outside assistance.
I agree, close range frigates have greater chances of survival against a lone battleship. The problem is that the only support a battleship needs presently is another battleship a little further away to complete neutralize this issue. Is this really right, or should we be putting the responsibility onto the cruisers/frigate pilots in our groups to protect the battleships?
At least with siddy's idea the second battleship with large guns won't be much help to the first one in trouble, and they would both HAVE to rely on cruisers/frigates for defense, bringing a need into the equation.
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Jash Illian
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Posted - 2004.02.27 15:20:00 -
[39]
Quote:
Quote:
Randuin MaraL:
Right enough, but there are no more than say a handful of HI turret slots. Assume a 5 turret slot BS, it would mount 3 large guns and 2 smaller ones? A 4 turrets BS then 2 + 2? Or 3 + 1 as hunting NPC drones ... that single smaller gun would not make much difference.
NO. It would then REQUIRE protection. Its a battleship, its gotta be vulnerable to something, and something that expensive should have escourts protecting it. Let your cruisers and frigates protect you, your ship bonuses aren't to small or medium weapons are they. You fit for long range bombardment like you are intended, and let the smaller ships protect you.
I think Siddy said it well. Battleships can do it all, so they don't need anyone else to protect them.
When you make a battleship NEED protection by cruisers/frigates, then you will see them in fleets doing things other then warp scrambling (not that that isn't important, but there are other things we could be doing with them also).
This is quite possibly one of the better ideas I have seen todate about this issue. We had thought about minimum ranges on some weapons, but that wouldn't affect their hit chance.
Whilst the details siddy put in were just examples, its a very fine basic idea.
Battleships are already vulnerable to frigates at the turret level. Most of the issues come from other weapon systems or from the frigate pilots themselves. Drones are the biggest threat to a frigate, followed by missiles. The smallest threat to a frigate is large turrets. They stand almost no chance of hitting a properly piloted frigate without outside assistance.
But as usual, the problem isn't the actual mechanics. Just that people don't want to learn how to properly pilot a frigate. At 12km a battleship would be hard pressed to hit a rifter with large class weapon except the short range variants. That's nearly 3 minutes travelling at +2km/s on mwd for a semi-skilled pilot. At 1km, the only chance large turrets have against a frigate is a wrecking shot.
What will allow a battleship to kill a frigate:
1) Drones
2) Missiles
3) Webifier
4) Locking onto that frigate fast enough to fire while the frigate is still attempting to reach effective range and speed.
A person trying to dance around a battleship's guns at 20km-30km so they can lob cruise missiles at it is pretending to be a ship much bigger with a lot less armor.
I mean its like you want corporations to oblige each other like its sex or something. Pffft I would rather **** my enemy.- Rohann
Be careful out there. That other guy waiting in the queue for the gate MIGHT be a baby-munching frock-burner, YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!- Lallante |
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