EVE Search - Apocalyspe and Abaddon - two ships with different problems.

All Channels

Ships and Modules

Apocalyspe and Abaddon - two ships with different problems.

» Click here to find additional results for this topic using Google

Monitor this thread via RSS [?]

Pages: [1] 2 :: one page
Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 0 post(s)
Arthur Frayn Veterans Of Liberation	Posted - 2007.10.20 22:59:00 - [1] The Apocalypse, once king of Amarr battleships, was dethroned by a successor which can't quite bear the weight of the crown. The Abaddon is an interesting break from Amarr philosophy - namely, it tries to fill two roles at once. We have one ship with no direction, and another without the power to take either direction it needs to go. I thought of a solution. Swap the Apocalypse's laser cap bonus for the Abaddon's armor resist bonus. The Apoc would have the bonus to capacitor size and armor resists, giving it a beast of a tank. The Abaddon would be an immense alpha strike ship with a damage bonus and desperately needed cap bonus to its lasers. It would still differ from the Armageddon which emphasizes dps rather than alpha. The Gallente and Minmatar have two decent gank battleships already, so it's not a ridiculous stretch for the Amarr. -- Eve needs a dose of Top Gun without the sweaty shower scenes.
Gladiator Jonny Repo Industries	Posted - 2007.10.20 23:03:00 - [2] that.... that would make real good sense. would end the tanking theme of tier 3 bships but.... i really like the idea and it makes sense.
Deschenus Maximus Amarr Digital Fury Corporation Digital Renegades	Posted - 2007.10.20 23:17:00 - [3] Yeah... but then, the Apoc would have even less of a reason to fit lasers instead of ACs.
Dei Amarr Khanid Aerospace Group Khanid Provincial Authority	Posted - 2007.10.20 23:24:00 - [4] Originally by: Deschenus Maximus Yeah... but then, the Apoc would have even less of a reason to fit lasers instead of ACs. Same as the Proph, Retri, and Arbi then. --- The true master paralyses his opponent, leaving him vulnerable to attack
Acoco Osiris Gallente Sublime.	Posted - 2007.10.20 23:25:00 - [5] It would remove the Abbadon's main role-which is to go out in a quick blaze of glory, destroying all opposition... until it runs out of cap. I think the Abbadon should keep its resists + damage boni, simply to be "that boat which you struggle to outlast". The Apocalypse currently has a role as a low-skill-friendly newbie boat, and I wouldn't want to take that away either. ------------------------------ One more soldier off to war... And one Velator in my hangars.
Arthur Frayn Veterans Of Liberation	Posted - 2007.10.20 23:28:00 - [6] Originally by: Deschenus Maximus Yeah... but then, the Apoc would have even less of a reason to fit lasers instead of ACs. The Scorpion has no incentive to fit railguns or missiles. The Myrmidon has no incentive to fit blasters or rails. And few people see the utility in fitting lasers to an Apoc anymore anyway. My idea gives it a decent and well defined role. Does it have one now? -- Eve needs a dose of Top Gun without the sweaty shower scenes.
Deschenus Maximus Amarr Digital Fury Corporation Digital Renegades	Posted - 2007.10.20 23:28:00 - [7] Originally by: Dei Originally by: Deschenus Maximus Yeah... but then, the Apoc would have even less of a reason to fit lasers instead of ACs. Same as the Proph, Retri, and Arbi then. Arbi's not really a turret boat, Retri gets a laser damage bonus, so I don't see why ACs would be better on it. As for the Proph, it wastes its laser cap reduc bonus with ACs, while an Apoc with cap capacity bonus and armour resist bonus loses nothing.
Deschenus Maximus Amarr Digital Fury Corporation Digital Renegades	Posted - 2007.10.20 23:39:00 - [8] Originally by: Arthur Frayn The Scorpion has no incentive to fit railguns or missiles. The Myrmidon has no incentive to fit blasters or rails. Scorp's main role is e-war, and Myrm's main role is droneboat, so while you are right, it's not really as bad as with the Apoc, a pure turret boat. Originally by: Arthur Frayn And few people see the utility in fitting lasers to an Apoc anymore anyway. My idea gives it a decent and well defined role. Does it have one now? No, but it's role should make it compliant with using laser turrets. My idea would be to give it the armour resist bonus, but keep the laser cap reduc bonus.
Udyr Vulpayne Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2007.10.20 23:45:00 - [9] Originally by: Arthur Frayn Swap the Apocalypse's laser cap bonus for the Abaddon's armor resist bonus. The Apoc would have the bonus to capacitor size and armor resists, giving it a beast of a tank. bad idea wich doesnt solve any of the problems amarr have. - makes abaddon even more a better clone of the geddon than it already is and removes one of its main advantages. if anthing this ship needs a change to make it less like a bettergeddon. - apoc would be (even more) useless with lasers without getting a role in return. also note that the apoc wasnt the "king of amarr battleships" before the abaddon got released. it desperatle needs a change and a real role to fill but i would hope that this will be sth better than pushing it even more into the bait ship with autocannons role.
Transcendant One	Posted - 2007.10.20 23:45:00 - [10] No, the Abaddon cannot active tank and gank and that's perfectly fine since it does one of the two well. A plated gank Abaddon is a monster, and would be a joke with your suggested change.
Markus Aurelian	Posted - 2007.10.20 23:47:00 - [11] The problem with the Apoc is that its bonuses lead it into a role that the abaddon does better. The Abaddon, by the way, is fine. If anything, it has cap issues, which has more to do with the weapon system itself, rather than the ship. The Abaddon can't run a dual rep tank and fire, so what? all amarr ships have problems with that. I think there are two solutions to lasers (which, combined with the bonuses the apoc gets are the reason it sucks). One-keep the cap use as it is, and increase damage to compensate for it (the range advantage of lasers with current ship speeds is completely wasted), or cut cap use, remove that 10% cap use reduction, and give real useful bonuses, say, damage or tracking. The Abaddon is IMO the best amarrian battleship, despite its flaws. While it cant do as much raw dps as the armageddon, it lasts a whole lot longer if you passive tank it, it has an extra midslot, much more generous fitting, has a bigger alpha, and has less of its dps reliant on drones. Meatwad FTW
Lance Fighter Amarr	Posted - 2007.10.21 00:29:00 - [12] Just give the apoc 6 missile bays, 6 turret slots, 5% cruise/torp RoF, and leave the 5% cap :) That would give the apoc a role, sure enough! please please please please please
Rialtor Amarr Yarrrateers Mass Destruction.	Posted - 2007.10.21 01:10:00 - [13] Originally by: Arthur Frayn The Apocalypse, once king of Amarr battleships, was dethroned by a successor which can't quite bear the weight of the crown. The Abaddon is an interesting break from Amarr philosophy - namely, it tries to fill two roles at once. We have one ship with no direction, and another without the power to take either direction it needs to go. I thought of a solution. Swap the Apocalypse's laser cap bonus for the Abaddon's armor resist bonus. The Apoc would have the bonus to capacitor size and armor resists, giving it a beast of a tank. The Abaddon would be an immense alpha strike ship with a damage bonus and desperately needed cap bonus to its lasers. It would still differ from the Armageddon which emphasizes dps rather than alpha. The Gallente and Minmatar have two decent gank battleships already, so it's not a ridiculous stretch for the Amarr. An emphatic no thank you. All youÆll do is reduce the abaddon from having 2 bonuses and being good to having 1 bonus and being bad like half the fleet. I would much rather everyship lose all their cap % bonus for a real bonus. Even though they'd all cap out fast at least they'd have a bonus to counteract the horrible nature of lasers. For instance,Harb loses -10 cap reduction, and gains an ROF. All Amarr ships would then be diesel until they cap themselves. I'd be much happier in that role since Amarr still cap themselves with the bonus, at least I'd be great for a few minutes. A bright starr that burns brightly for a short time then fades away. :) ---- sig ---- He who pays the piper, picks the tune
Kristoffer Amarr Blackguard Brigade Aftermath Alliance	Posted - 2007.10.21 01:56:00 - [14] We do not need an Amarrian ***poc. Give the Apocalypse an optimal range bonus instead of its cap capacity bonus and the Apocalypse will be quite useful.
Transcendant One	Posted - 2007.10.21 02:01:00 - [15] Originally by: Kristoffer We do not need an Amarrian ***poc. Give the Apocalypse an optimal range bonus instead of its cap capacity bonus and the Apocalypse will be quite useful. /SIGNED
Kristoffer Amarr Blackguard Brigade Aftermath Alliance	Posted - 2007.10.21 02:03:00 - [16] Originally by: Kristoffer We do not need an Amarrian g-a-y-v-e-n'poc. Give the Apocalypse an optimal range bonus instead of its cap capacity bonus and the Apocalypse will be quite useful.
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.10.21 02:31:00 - [17] Originally by: Kristoffer We do not need an Amarrian ***poc. Give the Apocalypse an optimal range bonus instead of its cap capacity bonus and the Apocalypse will be quite useful. An apoc with an optimal bonus is overpowered. About any laser ship with a comparable number of turrets with more optimal bonuses than their competitors will overpowered as a sniper. If you gave the Zealot a second optimal bonus right now[-1 turret or -1 effective damage bonus against the Muninn] it would be overpowered.
Redora Gallente Universal Exports	Posted - 2007.10.21 02:41:00 - [18] Originally by: Deschenus Maximus Originally by: Dei Originally by: Deschenus Maximus Yeah... but then, the Apoc would have even less of a reason to fit lasers instead of ACs. Same as the Proph, Retri, and Arbi then. Arbi's not really a turret boat, Retri gets a laser damage bonus, so I don't see why ACs would be better on it. As for the Proph, it wastes its laser cap reduc bonus with ACs, while an Apoc with cap capacity bonus and armour resist bonus loses nothing. Uhhh.... Retribution gets a laser damage bonus? Since when? --- Redora http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=543553
Arenis Xemdal Amarr	Posted - 2007.10.21 03:07:00 - [19] While your idea is better than most found on these forums, its not completely thought out. 1. Without a cap laser use bonus on the Apoc, it would not only have the least damage output of the three battleships (as it does today), but no ability to use it. It would make a great damage absorber, but thats about it. I personally would not trade in 25% more resistances for the inability to use lasers. 2. You don't seem to understand that the higher cost of an Abaddon isn't a prohibitive factor to its use. The fact that you can't run a full rack of Tachyons very well for very long is the only thing that discourages people from using it exclusively. To some, the ability to fire for longer periods of time is more valuable in say.. a siege situation, rather than an alpha strike fleet situation. When the Tier 3's were originally being designed it was quite obvious that nearly every race would get a ship specifically oriented to fleet battles. For the Abaddon, damage is what sells it, but my original proposal was like this: Arma - ROF, laser cap use - cheapest ship, highest damage, least survivable, least versatile Apoc - Cap, laser cap use - best sustainable tanking, best cap warfare, good value, good versatility Abaddon - Resistances, laser cap use - best passive tank, easiest fitting reqs, highest cost, slowest speed As it stands, the damage bonus on the Abaddon with a lack of laser cap bonus not only makes it hard to use, even in its intended role - but it puts the Apoc at the bottom of the ladder in terms of damage.
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.10.21 03:13:00 - [20] Originally by: Redora Originally by: Deschenus Maximus Originally by: Dei Originally by: Deschenus Maximus Yeah... but then, the Apoc would have even less of a reason to fit lasers instead of ACs. Same as the Proph, Retri, and Arbi then. Arbi's not really a turret boat, Retri gets a laser damage bonus, so I don't see why ACs would be better on it. As for the Proph, it wastes its laser cap reduc bonus with ACs, while an Apoc with cap capacity bonus and armour resist bonus loses nothing. Uhhh.... Retribution gets a laser damage bonus? Since when? Since forever.
Markus Aurelian	Posted - 2007.10.21 03:37:00 - [21] Originally by: Arenis Xemdal Arma - ROF, laser cap use - cheapest ship, highest damage, least survivable, least versatile Apoc - Cap, laser cap use - best sustainable tanking, best cap warfare, good value, good versatility Abaddon - Resistances, laser cap use - best passive tank, easiest fitting reqs, highest cost, slowest speed As it stands, the damage bonus on the Abaddon with a lack of laser cap bonus not only makes it hard to use, even in its intended role - but it puts the Apoc at the bottom of the ladder in terms of damage. I'm glad they at least got two battleships right, if there was only one ship in the amarrian line that could do decent damage itd be a sham. the apocalypse is one of the least effective battleships, but I dont think that requires a change to the other battleships to make them less effective (and thus improve the apoc by comparison). Meatwad FTW
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Uninvited Guests	Posted - 2007.10.21 09:32:00 - [22] Originally by: Markus Aurelian The problem with the Apoc is that its bonuses lead it into a role that the abaddon does better. The Abaddon, by the way, is fine. If anything, it has cap issues, which has more to do with the weapon system itself, rather than the ship. The Abaddon can't run a dual rep tank and fire, so what? all amarr ships have problems with that. I think there are two solutions to lasers (which, combined with the bonuses the apoc gets are the reason it sucks). One-keep the cap use as it is, and increase damage to compensate for it (the range advantage of lasers with current ship speeds is completely wasted), or cut cap use, remove that 10% cap use reduction, and give real useful bonuses, say, damage or tracking. The Abaddon is IMO the best amarrian battleship, despite its flaws. While it cant do as much raw dps as the armageddon, it lasts a whole lot longer if you passive tank it, it has an extra midslot, much more generous fitting, has a bigger alpha, and has less of its dps reliant on drones. Excuse me but Abaddon and geddon do the same damage pretty much if you count in both the drones, without drones abaddon outdamages the geddon.
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Uninvited Guests	Posted - 2007.10.21 09:33:00 - [23] Originally by: Goumindong Originally by: Kristoffer We do not need an Amarrian ***poc. Give the Apocalypse an optimal range bonus instead of its cap capacity bonus and the Apocalypse will be quite useful. An apoc with an optimal bonus is overpowered. About any laser ship with a comparable number of turrets with more optimal bonuses than their competitors will overpowered as a sniper. If you gave the Zealot a second optimal bonus right now[-1 turret or -1 effective damage bonus against the Muninn] it would be overpowered. You can boost zealot in anyway you want, its so crappy it will still zuck.
Dei Amarr Khanid Aerospace Group Khanid Provincial Authority	Posted - 2007.10.21 09:34:00 - [24] Originally by: Deschenus Maximus Originally by: Dei Originally by: Deschenus Maximus Yeah... but then, the Apoc would have even less of a reason to fit lasers instead of ACs. Same as the Proph, Retri, and Arbi then. Arbi's not really a turret boat, Retri gets a laser damage bonus, so I don't see why ACs would be better on it. As for the Proph, it wastes its laser cap reduc bonus with ACs, while an Apoc with cap capacity bonus and armour resist bonus loses nothing. Sorry I meant the Punisher. --- The true master paralyses his opponent, leaving him vulnerable to attack
Zhaine Coreli Corporation Corelum Syndicate	Posted - 2007.10.21 10:23:00 - [25] Something needs to be done about the Apoc for sure, but please please please leave my Abaddon as it is :( No, it's not a perfect ship but I like it how it is, and the flaws are easily negated with the right set up and tactics.
Xequecal	Posted - 2007.10.21 11:16:00 - [26] Apocalypse should be fixed like the Nightmare was. 6 high slots, 4 turret slots, 2 launcher slots, ship bonus 20% bonus to large energy turret damage and 5% bonus to capacitor capacity per level.
mallina Caldari Core Contingency	Posted - 2007.10.21 11:18:00 - [27] Originally by: Goumindong Originally by: Kristoffer We do not need an Amarrian **poc. Give the Apocalypse an optimal range bonus instead of its cap capacity bonus and the Apocalypse will be quite useful. An apoc with an optimal bonus is overpowered. About any laser ship with a comparable number of turrets with more optimal bonuses than their competitors will overpowered as a sniper. That's not exactly accurate. The Apoc is one of the few Battleships that suffers from a complete lack of a Damage Bonus(like the Rokh), but instead gets a bonus to Cap Amount - and let's be honest here, that's hardly going to help much considering that most people use Cap Injector setups, is it? An Apoc with an Opt Range bonus is an Apoc that's useful with lasers*. The Current Apoc is pretty pathetic in that regard. With a similar role to the Rokh, it might actually see some action. ---
Markus Aurelian	Posted - 2007.10.21 11:23:00 - [28] Originally by: Xequecal Apocalypse should be fixed like the Nightmare was. 6 high slots, 4 turret slots, 2 launcher slots, ship bonus 20% bonus to large energy turret damage and 5% bonus to capacitor capacity per level. those bonuses would do nothing for the apoc, halving the number of turrets and adding a 100% damage bonus is in effect the 10% bonus to laser cap use that it already has. sure, it adds two utility highs, but the apoc will still have **** poor dps. will it push people towards using lasers on it? yes. will it make using lasers on it better than using lasers in its current form? no. it will also make starting out with an apoc as a noob very unfriendly. The Apoc would be an interesting droneboat, much like the arbitrator. drop 2 highs, add a low slot, increase drone bay size to ~250m3, drop the laser cap use bonus for a drone damage and hp bonus. sure, might not jibe with the prime fiction, but itd add a new dynamic to the amarr battleship line, as currently they are all laser gunboats with varying degrees of success. Meatwad FTW
Revan Crow Minmatar KraehenKlaue	Posted - 2007.10.21 11:41:00 - [29] i found the apoc pretty usefull ....with 6 miner2s fitted ....
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.10.21 15:09:00 - [30] Originally by: Markus Aurelian Originally by: Xequecal Apocalypse should be fixed like the Nightmare was. 6 high slots, 4 turret slots, 2 launcher slots, ship bonus 20% bonus to large energy turret damage and 5% bonus to capacitor capacity per level. those bonuses would do nothing for the apoc, halving the number of turrets and adding a 100% damage bonus is in effect the 10% bonus to laser cap use that it already has. sure, it adds two utility highs, but the apoc will still have **** poor dps. will it push people towards using lasers on it? yes. will it make using lasers on it better than using lasers in its current form? no. it will also make starting out with an apoc as a noob very unfriendly. The Apoc would be an interesting droneboat, much like the arbitrator. drop 2 highs, add a low slot, increase drone bay size to ~250m3, drop the laser cap use bonus for a drone damage and hp bonus. sure, might not jibe with the prime fiction, but itd add a new dynamic to the amarr battleship line, as currently they are all laser gunboats with varying degrees of success. An apoc with 4, 100% bonused lasers and 2 sige launchers would do 1030 dps with 3 heat sinks after the torp changes, 1000 before and 768/800 in a full tank setup. That certianly isnt bad, especially considering the range of lasers. That would make it pretty much the Amarr solo-ship. Especially if it could fit a tank while doing that.

Pages: [1] 2 :: one page
First page \| Previous page \| Next page \| Last page

COPYRIGHT NOTICE
EVE Online, the EVE logo, EVE and all associated logos and designs are the intellectual property of CCP hf. All artwork, screenshots, characters, vehicles, storylines, world facts or other recognizable features of the intellectual property relating to these trademarks are likewise the intellectual property of CCP hf. EVE Online and the EVE logo are the registered trademarks of CCP hf. All rights are reserved worldwide. All other trademarks are the property of their respective owners. CCP hf. has granted permission to EVE-Search.com to use EVE Online and all associated logos and designs for promotional and information purposes on its website but does not endorse, and is not in any way affiliated with, EVE-Search.com. CCP is in no way responsible for the content on or functioning of this website, nor can it be liable for any damage arising from the use of this website.