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Arthur Frayn Veterans Of Liberation	Posted - 2007.10.20 22:59:00 - [1] The Apocalypse, once king of Amarr battleships, was dethroned by a successor which can't quite bear the weight of the crown. The Abaddon is an interesting break from Amarr philosophy - namely, it tries to fill two roles at once. We have one ship with no direction, and another without the power to take either direction it needs to go. I thought of a solution. Swap the Apocalypse's laser cap bonus for the Abaddon's armor resist bonus. The Apoc would have the bonus to capacitor size and armor resists, giving it a beast of a tank. The Abaddon would be an immense alpha strike ship with a damage bonus and desperately needed cap bonus to its lasers. It would still differ from the Armageddon which emphasizes dps rather than alpha. The Gallente and Minmatar have two decent gank battleships already, so it's not a ridiculous stretch for the Amarr. -- Eve needs a dose of Top Gun without the sweaty shower scenes.
Gladiator Jonny Repo Industries	Posted - 2007.10.20 23:03:00 - [2] that.... that would make real good sense. would end the tanking theme of tier 3 bships but.... i really like the idea and it makes sense.
Deschenus Maximus Amarr Digital Fury Corporation Digital Renegades	Posted - 2007.10.20 23:17:00 - [3] Yeah... but then, the Apoc would have even less of a reason to fit lasers instead of ACs.
Dei Amarr Khanid Aerospace Group Khanid Provincial Authority	Posted - 2007.10.20 23:24:00 - [4] Originally by: Deschenus Maximus Yeah... but then, the Apoc would have even less of a reason to fit lasers instead of ACs. Same as the Proph, Retri, and Arbi then. --- The true master paralyses his opponent, leaving him vulnerable to attack
Acoco Osiris Gallente Sublime.	Posted - 2007.10.20 23:25:00 - [5] It would remove the Abbadon's main role-which is to go out in a quick blaze of glory, destroying all opposition... until it runs out of cap. I think the Abbadon should keep its resists + damage boni, simply to be "that boat which you struggle to outlast". The Apocalypse currently has a role as a low-skill-friendly newbie boat, and I wouldn't want to take that away either. ------------------------------ One more soldier off to war... And one Velator in my hangars.
Arthur Frayn Veterans Of Liberation	Posted - 2007.10.20 23:28:00 - [6] Originally by: Deschenus Maximus Yeah... but then, the Apoc would have even less of a reason to fit lasers instead of ACs. The Scorpion has no incentive to fit railguns or missiles. The Myrmidon has no incentive to fit blasters or rails. And few people see the utility in fitting lasers to an Apoc anymore anyway. My idea gives it a decent and well defined role. Does it have one now? -- Eve needs a dose of Top Gun without the sweaty shower scenes.
Deschenus Maximus Amarr Digital Fury Corporation Digital Renegades	Posted - 2007.10.20 23:28:00 - [7] Originally by: Dei Originally by: Deschenus Maximus Yeah... but then, the Apoc would have even less of a reason to fit lasers instead of ACs. Same as the Proph, Retri, and Arbi then. Arbi's not really a turret boat, Retri gets a laser damage bonus, so I don't see why ACs would be better on it. As for the Proph, it wastes its laser cap reduc bonus with ACs, while an Apoc with cap capacity bonus and armour resist bonus loses nothing.
Deschenus Maximus Amarr Digital Fury Corporation Digital Renegades	Posted - 2007.10.20 23:39:00 - [8] Originally by: Arthur Frayn The Scorpion has no incentive to fit railguns or missiles. The Myrmidon has no incentive to fit blasters or rails. Scorp's main role is e-war, and Myrm's main role is droneboat, so while you are right, it's not really as bad as with the Apoc, a pure turret boat. Originally by: Arthur Frayn And few people see the utility in fitting lasers to an Apoc anymore anyway. My idea gives it a decent and well defined role. Does it have one now? No, but it's role should make it compliant with using laser turrets. My idea would be to give it the armour resist bonus, but keep the laser cap reduc bonus.
Udyr Vulpayne Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2007.10.20 23:45:00 - [9] Originally by: Arthur Frayn Swap the Apocalypse's laser cap bonus for the Abaddon's armor resist bonus. The Apoc would have the bonus to capacitor size and armor resists, giving it a beast of a tank. bad idea wich doesnt solve any of the problems amarr have. - makes abaddon even more a better clone of the geddon than it already is and removes one of its main advantages. if anthing this ship needs a change to make it less like a bettergeddon. - apoc would be (even more) useless with lasers without getting a role in return. also note that the apoc wasnt the "king of amarr battleships" before the abaddon got released. it desperatle needs a change and a real role to fill but i would hope that this will be sth better than pushing it even more into the bait ship with autocannons role.
Transcendant One	Posted - 2007.10.20 23:45:00 - [10] No, the Abaddon cannot active tank and gank and that's perfectly fine since it does one of the two well. A plated gank Abaddon is a monster, and would be a joke with your suggested change.
Markus Aurelian	Posted - 2007.10.20 23:47:00 - [11] The problem with the Apoc is that its bonuses lead it into a role that the abaddon does better. The Abaddon, by the way, is fine. If anything, it has cap issues, which has more to do with the weapon system itself, rather than the ship. The Abaddon can't run a dual rep tank and fire, so what? all amarr ships have problems with that. I think there are two solutions to lasers (which, combined with the bonuses the apoc gets are the reason it sucks). One-keep the cap use as it is, and increase damage to compensate for it (the range advantage of lasers with current ship speeds is completely wasted), or cut cap use, remove that 10% cap use reduction, and give real useful bonuses, say, damage or tracking. The Abaddon is IMO the best amarrian battleship, despite its flaws. While it cant do as much raw dps as the armageddon, it lasts a whole lot longer if you passive tank it, it has an extra midslot, much more generous fitting, has a bigger alpha, and has less of its dps reliant on drones. Meatwad FTW
Lance Fighter Amarr	Posted - 2007.10.21 00:29:00 - [12] Just give the apoc 6 missile bays, 6 turret slots, 5% cruise/torp RoF, and leave the 5% cap :) That would give the apoc a role, sure enough! please please please please please
Rialtor Amarr Yarrrateers Mass Destruction.	Posted - 2007.10.21 01:10:00 - [13] Originally by: Arthur Frayn The Apocalypse, once king of Amarr battleships, was dethroned by a successor which can't quite bear the weight of the crown. The Abaddon is an interesting break from Amarr philosophy - namely, it tries to fill two roles at once. We have one ship with no direction, and another without the power to take either direction it needs to go. I thought of a solution. Swap the Apocalypse's laser cap bonus for the Abaddon's armor resist bonus. The Apoc would have the bonus to capacitor size and armor resists, giving it a beast of a tank. The Abaddon would be an immense alpha strike ship with a damage bonus and desperately needed cap bonus to its lasers. It would still differ from the Armageddon which emphasizes dps rather than alpha. The Gallente and Minmatar have two decent gank battleships already, so it's not a ridiculous stretch for the Amarr. An emphatic no thank you. All youÆll do is reduce the abaddon from having 2 bonuses and being good to having 1 bonus and being bad like half the fleet. I would much rather everyship lose all their cap % bonus for a real bonus. Even though they'd all cap out fast at least they'd have a bonus to counteract the horrible nature of lasers. For instance,Harb loses -10 cap reduction, and gains an ROF. All Amarr ships would then be diesel until they cap themselves. I'd be much happier in that role since Amarr still cap themselves with the bonus, at least I'd be great for a few minutes. A bright starr that burns brightly for a short time then fades away. :) ---- sig ---- He who pays the piper, picks the tune
Kristoffer Amarr Blackguard Brigade Aftermath Alliance	Posted - 2007.10.21 01:56:00 - [14] We do not need an Amarrian ***poc. Give the Apocalypse an optimal range bonus instead of its cap capacity bonus and the Apocalypse will be quite useful.
Transcendant One	Posted - 2007.10.21 02:01:00 - [15] Originally by: Kristoffer We do not need an Amarrian ***poc. Give the Apocalypse an optimal range bonus instead of its cap capacity bonus and the Apocalypse will be quite useful. /SIGNED
Kristoffer Amarr Blackguard Brigade Aftermath Alliance	Posted - 2007.10.21 02:03:00 - [16] Originally by: Kristoffer We do not need an Amarrian g-a-y-v-e-n'poc. Give the Apocalypse an optimal range bonus instead of its cap capacity bonus and the Apocalypse will be quite useful.
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.10.21 02:31:00 - [17] Originally by: Kristoffer We do not need an Amarrian ***poc. Give the Apocalypse an optimal range bonus instead of its cap capacity bonus and the Apocalypse will be quite useful. An apoc with an optimal bonus is overpowered. About any laser ship with a comparable number of turrets with more optimal bonuses than their competitors will overpowered as a sniper. If you gave the Zealot a second optimal bonus right now[-1 turret or -1 effective damage bonus against the Muninn] it would be overpowered.
Redora Gallente Universal Exports	Posted - 2007.10.21 02:41:00 - [18] Originally by: Deschenus Maximus Originally by: Dei Originally by: Deschenus Maximus Yeah... but then, the Apoc would have even less of a reason to fit lasers instead of ACs. Same as the Proph, Retri, and Arbi then. Arbi's not really a turret boat, Retri gets a laser damage bonus, so I don't see why ACs would be better on it. As for the Proph, it wastes its laser cap reduc bonus with ACs, while an Apoc with cap capacity bonus and armour resist bonus loses nothing. Uhhh.... Retribution gets a laser damage bonus? Since when? --- Redora http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=543553
Arenis Xemdal Amarr	Posted - 2007.10.21 03:07:00 - [19] While your idea is better than most found on these forums, its not completely thought out. 1. Without a cap laser use bonus on the Apoc, it would not only have the least damage output of the three battleships (as it does today), but no ability to use it. It would make a great damage absorber, but thats about it. I personally would not trade in 25% more resistances for the inability to use lasers. 2. You don't seem to understand that the higher cost of an Abaddon isn't a prohibitive factor to its use. The fact that you can't run a full rack of Tachyons very well for very long is the only thing that discourages people from using it exclusively. To some, the ability to fire for longer periods of time is more valuable in say.. a siege situation, rather than an alpha strike fleet situation. When the Tier 3's were originally being designed it was quite obvious that nearly every race would get a ship specifically oriented to fleet battles. For the Abaddon, damage is what sells it, but my original proposal was like this: Arma - ROF, laser cap use - cheapest ship, highest damage, least survivable, least versatile Apoc - Cap, laser cap use - best sustainable tanking, best cap warfare, good value, good versatility Abaddon - Resistances, laser cap use - best passive tank, easiest fitting reqs, highest cost, slowest speed As it stands, the damage bonus on the Abaddon with a lack of laser cap bonus not only makes it hard to use, even in its intended role - but it puts the Apoc at the bottom of the ladder in terms of damage.
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.10.21 03:13:00 - [20] Originally by: Redora Originally by: Deschenus Maximus Originally by: Dei Originally by: Deschenus Maximus Yeah... but then, the Apoc would have even less of a reason to fit lasers instead of ACs. Same as the Proph, Retri, and Arbi then. Arbi's not really a turret boat, Retri gets a laser damage bonus, so I don't see why ACs would be better on it. As for the Proph, it wastes its laser cap reduc bonus with ACs, while an Apoc with cap capacity bonus and armour resist bonus loses nothing. Uhhh.... Retribution gets a laser damage bonus? Since when? Since forever.
Markus Aurelian	Posted - 2007.10.21 03:37:00 - [21] Originally by: Arenis Xemdal Arma - ROF, laser cap use - cheapest ship, highest damage, least survivable, least versatile Apoc - Cap, laser cap use - best sustainable tanking, best cap warfare, good value, good versatility Abaddon - Resistances, laser cap use - best passive tank, easiest fitting reqs, highest cost, slowest speed As it stands, the damage bonus on the Abaddon with a lack of laser cap bonus not only makes it hard to use, even in its intended role - but it puts the Apoc at the bottom of the ladder in terms of damage. I'm glad they at least got two battleships right, if there was only one ship in the amarrian line that could do decent damage itd be a sham. the apocalypse is one of the least effective battleships, but I dont think that requires a change to the other battleships to make them less effective (and thus improve the apoc by comparison). Meatwad FTW
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Uninvited Guests	Posted - 2007.10.21 09:32:00 - [22] Originally by: Markus Aurelian The problem with the Apoc is that its bonuses lead it into a role that the abaddon does better. The Abaddon, by the way, is fine. If anything, it has cap issues, which has more to do with the weapon system itself, rather than the ship. The Abaddon can't run a dual rep tank and fire, so what? all amarr ships have problems with that. I think there are two solutions to lasers (which, combined with the bonuses the apoc gets are the reason it sucks). One-keep the cap use as it is, and increase damage to compensate for it (the range advantage of lasers with current ship speeds is completely wasted), or cut cap use, remove that 10% cap use reduction, and give real useful bonuses, say, damage or tracking. The Abaddon is IMO the best amarrian battleship, despite its flaws. While it cant do as much raw dps as the armageddon, it lasts a whole lot longer if you passive tank it, it has an extra midslot, much more generous fitting, has a bigger alpha, and has less of its dps reliant on drones. Excuse me but Abaddon and geddon do the same damage pretty much if you count in both the drones, without drones abaddon outdamages the geddon.
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Uninvited Guests	Posted - 2007.10.21 09:33:00 - [23] Originally by: Goumindong Originally by: Kristoffer We do not need an Amarrian ***poc. Give the Apocalypse an optimal range bonus instead of its cap capacity bonus and the Apocalypse will be quite useful. An apoc with an optimal bonus is overpowered. About any laser ship with a comparable number of turrets with more optimal bonuses than their competitors will overpowered as a sniper. If you gave the Zealot a second optimal bonus right now[-1 turret or -1 effective damage bonus against the Muninn] it would be overpowered. You can boost zealot in anyway you want, its so crappy it will still zuck.
Dei Amarr Khanid Aerospace Group Khanid Provincial Authority	Posted - 2007.10.21 09:34:00 - [24] Originally by: Deschenus Maximus Originally by: Dei Originally by: Deschenus Maximus Yeah... but then, the Apoc would have even less of a reason to fit lasers instead of ACs. Same as the Proph, Retri, and Arbi then. Arbi's not really a turret boat, Retri gets a laser damage bonus, so I don't see why ACs would be better on it. As for the Proph, it wastes its laser cap reduc bonus with ACs, while an Apoc with cap capacity bonus and armour resist bonus loses nothing. Sorry I meant the Punisher. --- The true master paralyses his opponent, leaving him vulnerable to attack
Zhaine Coreli Corporation Corelum Syndicate	Posted - 2007.10.21 10:23:00 - [25] Something needs to be done about the Apoc for sure, but please please please leave my Abaddon as it is :( No, it's not a perfect ship but I like it how it is, and the flaws are easily negated with the right set up and tactics.
Xequecal	Posted - 2007.10.21 11:16:00 - [26] Apocalypse should be fixed like the Nightmare was. 6 high slots, 4 turret slots, 2 launcher slots, ship bonus 20% bonus to large energy turret damage and 5% bonus to capacitor capacity per level.
mallina Caldari Core Contingency	Posted - 2007.10.21 11:18:00 - [27] Originally by: Goumindong Originally by: Kristoffer We do not need an Amarrian **poc. Give the Apocalypse an optimal range bonus instead of its cap capacity bonus and the Apocalypse will be quite useful. An apoc with an optimal bonus is overpowered. About any laser ship with a comparable number of turrets with more optimal bonuses than their competitors will overpowered as a sniper. That's not exactly accurate. The Apoc is one of the few Battleships that suffers from a complete lack of a Damage Bonus(like the Rokh), but instead gets a bonus to Cap Amount - and let's be honest here, that's hardly going to help much considering that most people use Cap Injector setups, is it? An Apoc with an Opt Range bonus is an Apoc that's useful with lasers*. The Current Apoc is pretty pathetic in that regard. With a similar role to the Rokh, it might actually see some action. ---
Markus Aurelian	Posted - 2007.10.21 11:23:00 - [28] Originally by: Xequecal Apocalypse should be fixed like the Nightmare was. 6 high slots, 4 turret slots, 2 launcher slots, ship bonus 20% bonus to large energy turret damage and 5% bonus to capacitor capacity per level. those bonuses would do nothing for the apoc, halving the number of turrets and adding a 100% damage bonus is in effect the 10% bonus to laser cap use that it already has. sure, it adds two utility highs, but the apoc will still have **** poor dps. will it push people towards using lasers on it? yes. will it make using lasers on it better than using lasers in its current form? no. it will also make starting out with an apoc as a noob very unfriendly. The Apoc would be an interesting droneboat, much like the arbitrator. drop 2 highs, add a low slot, increase drone bay size to ~250m3, drop the laser cap use bonus for a drone damage and hp bonus. sure, might not jibe with the prime fiction, but itd add a new dynamic to the amarr battleship line, as currently they are all laser gunboats with varying degrees of success. Meatwad FTW
Revan Crow Minmatar KraehenKlaue	Posted - 2007.10.21 11:41:00 - [29] i found the apoc pretty usefull ....with 6 miner2s fitted ....
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.10.21 15:09:00 - [30] Originally by: Markus Aurelian Originally by: Xequecal Apocalypse should be fixed like the Nightmare was. 6 high slots, 4 turret slots, 2 launcher slots, ship bonus 20% bonus to large energy turret damage and 5% bonus to capacitor capacity per level. those bonuses would do nothing for the apoc, halving the number of turrets and adding a 100% damage bonus is in effect the 10% bonus to laser cap use that it already has. sure, it adds two utility highs, but the apoc will still have **** poor dps. will it push people towards using lasers on it? yes. will it make using lasers on it better than using lasers in its current form? no. it will also make starting out with an apoc as a noob very unfriendly. The Apoc would be an interesting droneboat, much like the arbitrator. drop 2 highs, add a low slot, increase drone bay size to ~250m3, drop the laser cap use bonus for a drone damage and hp bonus. sure, might not jibe with the prime fiction, but itd add a new dynamic to the amarr battleship line, as currently they are all laser gunboats with varying degrees of success. An apoc with 4, 100% bonused lasers and 2 sige launchers would do 1030 dps with 3 heat sinks after the torp changes, 1000 before and 768/800 in a full tank setup. That certianly isnt bad, especially considering the range of lasers. That would make it pretty much the Amarr solo-ship. Especially if it could fit a tank while doing that.
Alyxa Mahan	Posted - 2007.10.21 15:52:00 - [31] Originally by: Goumindong With AN Microwave it would do as much DPS as any other sniper to 180km but have 4 times the tracking. Does tracking really matter that much against a tackled target at 180 klicks?
Leandro Salazar The Blackguard Wolves Knights Of the Southerncross	Posted - 2007.10.21 15:54:00 - [32] The only 'problem' the Abaddon might have is incompetence on the part of some of its users. In skilled hands, it is a top notch ship and any change could only be for the worse. So please don't touch it. The Apoc on the other hands needs something. Any change can only be good. There is no 'n' in turret There is no 'r' in faction There is no 'a' in Scorpion There is no 'e' in Caldari There is no makeup in rogue drones
Lord Berk Amarr	Posted - 2007.10.21 16:09:00 - [33] I suspect the Apoc might receive its tweak (no, nothing more than foolish hope, I admit) with Rev3. The 100% bonuses will be saved for the Paladin and the Pally will be a laser platform. Abaddon is fine, it has a nice following of which I consider myself a proud member. Apoc will possibly go to missiles OR drones (god I'd love both but that'd be too OP'd) CCP will have to write a creative description on Carthum's switch but it's not impossible. What I''d like to see for the new Apoc: 5% torp / cruise damage or ROF per level 5% Armor rep 75 drone bay Kinda boring but balanced...a basic ship for newer players to hop into. OR 5% drone hit points / dam per level 5% NOS / NEUT consumption 225 drone bay This would be an amazing ship. Not near as crazy as a Bhaal but we'ed have some Gallente look a little green with envy. And it's totally different from the other 2 BS'es. This may lead to abuse with nanoing. But energy warfare is in our history. Other option is possibly smartbombs....however one truth remains. Something has got to be done about the Apoc. -------------------------------- Nice Apoc! Going mining?
Azirapheal Amarr The Bastards	Posted - 2007.10.21 16:20:00 - [34] apoc is the only amarr ship i dont fly enough said
Arenis Xemdal Amarr	Posted - 2007.10.21 16:31:00 - [35] If the same Apocalypse we have today was the king of all battleships numerous times in the past, why do people insist on messing with the symptoms instead of the problems? Its everything but the Apocalpyse that has changed, and until the Abaddon came out I've not heard a single peep about this ship. People don't want to admit it, but the Abaddon encroaches on the same territory just like many of the other tier 3's do for their own race (Hyperion vs Mega, Maelstrom vs Tempest). And to reiterate what I said before, the two ships should have equal damage output with one having a cap bonus and the other an hp/resist bonus. One is suited to smaller scale and siege, the other is suited for fleet battle. Anybody who thinks turning the Apocalypse into a missile ship is a good idea is acting in traitorous ways.
Markus Aurelian	Posted - 2007.10.21 16:46:00 - [36] Originally by: Arenis Xemdal If the same Apocalypse we have today was the king of all battleships numerous times in the past, why do people insist on messing with the symptoms instead of the problems? Its everything but the Apocalpyse that has changed, and until the Abaddon came out I've not heard a single peep about this ship. People don't want to admit it, but the Abaddon encroaches on the same territory just like many of the other tier 3's do for their own race (Hyperion vs Mega, Maelstrom vs Tempest). And to reiterate what I said before, the two ships should have equal damage output with one having a cap bonus and the other an hp/resist bonus. One is suited to smaller scale and siege, the other is suited for fleet battle. Anybody who thinks turning the Apocalypse into a missile ship is a good idea is acting in traitorous ways. Not all of us have an Impoc, and having the geddon as the only amarrian battleship that can break the 1000 dps mark while doing only EM/Therm damage and capping out isnt something i relish. Apoc capped out at 949 dps with any sort of realistic fit...no thanks, I think the Abaddon is not only more capable, but fits into the amarrian theme better. The Apoc may not have produced complaints when the only alternative was the armageddon, but that doesnt mean it was by any means a great ship. Its the red-headed step child of the battleship line, and if lasers were OMGWTFPWN damage weapons then perhaps the 2 cap bonuses would be justified. as it is, the apocalypse has tons of cap, and no way to make good use of it. Meatwad FTW
shinsushi	Posted - 2007.10.21 17:15:00 - [37] Edited by: shinsushi on 21/10/2007 17:17:26 Originally by: Markus Aurelian Originally by: Arenis Xemdal If the same Apocalypse we have today was the king of all battleships numerous times in the past, why do people insist on messing with the symptoms instead of the problems? Its everything but the Apocalpyse that has changed, and until the Abaddon came out I've not heard a single peep about this ship. People don't want to admit it, but the Abaddon encroaches on the same territory just like many of the other tier 3's do for their own race (Hyperion vs Mega, Maelstrom vs Tempest). And to reiterate what I said before, the two ships should have equal damage output with one having a cap bonus and the other an hp/resist bonus. One is suited to smaller scale and siege, the other is suited for fleet battle. Anybody who thinks turning the Apocalypse into a missile ship is a good idea is acting in traitorous ways. Not all of us have an Impoc, and having the geddon as the only amarrian battleship that can break the 1000 dps mark while doing only EM/Therm damage and capping out isnt something i relish. Apoc capped out at 949 dps with any sort of realistic fit...no thanks, I think the Abaddon is not only more capable, but fits into the amarrian theme better. The Apoc may not have produced complaints when the only alternative was the armageddon, but that doesnt mean it was by any means a great ship. Its the red-headed step child of the battleship line, and if lasers were OMGWTFPWN damage weapons then perhaps the 2 cap bonuses would be justified. as it is, the apocalypse has tons of cap, and no way to make good use of it. Thats actually a really good response that I agree with Markus. Unfortunately CCP has been all over the place with lasers. Originally they were awesome, blatenly overpowered, and all amarrian ships just needed a cap bonus, because lasers were powerful enough without one. That time is gone, the only laser boats with competitive damage have damage bonuses, which craps all over the original design of lasers (pre dmg boosted) and makes CCP's job a hard one. They either have to admit that lasers are no longer hot-****, and get rid of the cap bonus/reduce cap requirements, or boost laser damage by 25% and change the dmg bonuses on some ships (T1 not T2.)
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.10.21 17:18:00 - [38] Originally by: Alyxa Mahan Originally by: Goumindong With AN Microwave it would do as much DPS as any other sniper to 180km but have 4 times the tracking. Does tracking really matter that much against a tackled target at 180 klicks? Targets typically are not tackled when you are using a sniper. If they are, then stick in aurora sit at 230k and do 400 dps. Its would be terribly broken.
Alyxa Mahan	Posted - 2007.10.21 17:44:00 - [39] Hmm, ok, but that still didn't answer my question. Does tracking matter at all over that distance? You'd need absolutely unrealistic velocities to achieve any kind of noticable vertical movement.
mallina Caldari Core Contingency	Posted - 2007.10.21 18:02:00 - [40] Edited by: mallina on 21/10/2007 18:14:52 Originally by: Goumindong No, its entirely true. An Apoc with a range bonus out-damages and nearly out-tracks all other ships to max lock range except the rokh in a very very small sliver. With AN Microwave it would do as much DPS as any other sniper to 180km but have 4 times the tracking. With aurora It has an optimal range of 231km with a falloff of 20+, it has a 249km lock range with a relativly fantastic sensor strength, and it does 401 dps, more than any other racial sniper could ever hope to come up with. As those figures are most definately with Tachs, consider that the Apoc needs TWO reactor control units just for the guns. No other race has this issue. Also, to get that kind of DPS with Aurora, you'd need 3 damage mods. You'd also need 2 Tracking Enhancers to get to that range (Rigs arn't an option due to the PG penalty), leaving you without any lowslots left whatsoever. ---
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.10.21 18:42:00 - [41] Originally by: mallina Edited by: mallina on 21/10/2007 18:18:08 Originally by: Goumindong No, its entirely true. An Apoc with a range bonus out-damages and nearly out-tracks all other ships to max lock range except the rokh in a very very small sliver. With AN Microwave it would do as much DPS as any other sniper to 180km but have 4 times the tracking. With aurora It has an optimal range of 231km with a falloff of 20+, it has a 249km lock range with a relativly fantastic sensor strength, and it does 401 dps, more than any other racial sniper could ever hope to come up with. As those figures are most definately with Tachs, consider that the Apoc needs TWO reactor control units just for the guns. No other race has this issue. Also, to get that kind of DPS with Aurora, you'd need 3 damage mods. You'd also need 2 Tracking Enhancers to get to that range (Rigs arn't an option due to the PG penalty), leaving you without any lowslots left whatsoever and no tank to speak of. So yes, it does more DPS than other snipers. It also can't fit any Plates to last a bit longer, nor is it capable of tanking a DD. Wonderful. Those numbers are for a fitted apoc. It can drop weapon mods for plates/dcs and STILL outdamage everyone else at all ranges. Originally by: Alyxa Mahan Hmm, ok, but that still didn't answer my question. Does tracking matter at all over that distance? You'd need absolutely unrealistic velocities to achieve any kind of noticable vertical movement. Yes, you will have a very hard time hitting cruisers with tech 2 ammo.
Xequecal	Posted - 2007.10.21 20:16:00 - [42] I really don't see how an Apoc with an optimal bonus would be overpowered. Yes, it would outdamage the Rokh at almost all ranges, if Tech 2 ammo is not used, but it wouldn't be by much. Also, the Rokh currently outdamages every sniper by a significant margin if Tech 2 ammo is not used, but nobody is calling it overpowered.

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