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Has GM the right to see our Windows Product ID or Physic IP-Adress??

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yuancongxin01's Wife	Posted - 2007.10.24 11:32:00 - [1] Has GM the right to see our Windows Product ID or Physic IP-Adress?? Has EULA said, GM has that right??
SentryRaven KIA Corp KIA Alliance	Posted - 2007.10.24 11:35:00 - [2] As far as I am aware.... Your Microsoft Product ID is none of a GM's business at all... With best regards, SentryRaven KIA Noobship Pilot
Gner Dechast Gallente Flashman Services	Posted - 2007.10.24 11:36:00 - [3] Windows Product ID is none of GM's business, but your IP is not a great secret, I'm afraid... I'm kind of curious who on earth would ask you for the COMBINATION of those two and via what medium... For one, the GM's are quite able to read your IP off the logs, and the product ID is (again) absolutely none of their business, so whoever is asking is most likely up to no good... my 2 cents
Unvisibility	Posted - 2007.10.24 11:37:00 - [4] Your IP address however... er... why would you be opposed to a GM seeing that? I'd say that was crucial for them to be able to see.
Morrow Disca Macrocosm Advanced Industries	Posted - 2007.10.24 11:38:00 - [5] Edited by: Morrow Disca on 24/10/2007 11:38:27 Your IP is in the public domain, most corporate websites you visit records it in some way.
u die Minmatar Sugarcane Technologies	Posted - 2007.10.24 11:41:00 - [6] Originally by: yuancongxin01's Wife Has GM the right to see our Windows Product ID or Physic IP-Adress?? Has EULA said, GM has that right?? So you have an illegal copy of XP on your PC. I call Microsoft right now. ________________________________________________
ZeroMbutCannotJump	Posted - 2007.10.24 11:41:00 - [7] Originally by: yuancongxin01's Wife Has GM the right to see our Windows Product ID or Physic IP-Adress?? Has EULA said, GM has that right?? You smell farmerish.
yuancongxin01's Wife	Posted - 2007.10.24 11:46:00 - [8] I think so, GM dont have the right to see our Windows ID. But they are doing that, as I known I am lucky, that I am not in China. And I am not a Farmer. But some of my best friend were be banned. because 'your Windows Product ID is same as isk seller, how can you explain that?' Can anyone explain that to me? I think, almost everyone know, that in China, almost no one using original-Windows System, even the other Software. That mean, its possibly they have all the same Windows ID. GM, you wanna Ban them all?
yuancongxin01's Wife	Posted - 2007.10.24 11:48:00 - [9] Edited by: yuancongxin01''s Wife on 24/10/2007 11:48:19 I cant repeat the words, said by GM, as I know. if I do it, I will be banned. EULA said, that GM has also that right?
Gone'Postal Minmatar Vengeance 8 Interceptors	Posted - 2007.10.24 11:49:00 - [10] Originally by: yuancongxin01's Wife I think so, GM dont have the right to see our Windows ID. But they are doing that, as I known I am lucky, that I am not in China. And I am not a Farmer. But some of my best friend were be banned. because 'your Windows Product ID is same as isk seller, how can you explain that?' Can anyone explain that to me? I think, almost everyone know, that in China, almost no one using original-Windows System, even the other Software. That mean, its possibly they have all the same Windows ID. GM, you wanna Ban them all? Well I guess using pirate copys of windows does suck in some cases, oh well... ---- \0/ CCP SlideShow Games \0/ "Eve" Proof that <1FPS games can still generate income.
Chrysalis D'lilth	Posted - 2007.10.24 11:55:00 - [11] If a GM wanted to know my windows product ID, i'd want a real good explaination as to why.... And believe me, it would have to be good.
yuancongxin01's Wife	Posted - 2007.10.24 12:01:00 - [12] I read EULA once more. I had just found, that CCP reserved all the rights. I mean all. We paid for gaming, we are customer. What kind of rights we have? Something like, petition can only vai online?
Secretary Bargain consumables	Posted - 2007.10.24 12:01:00 - [13] Edited by: Secretary on 24/10/2007 12:01:50 ibtl. and while we're at it : windows product ID + IP matched an isk seller.... well that's good to know. --------------------------- The signature. Here i can type my Bio.
Morrow Disca Macrocosm Advanced Industries	Posted - 2007.10.24 12:06:00 - [14] Don't torrent your windows install? buy it?
Macro Slasher	Posted - 2007.10.24 12:06:00 - [15] Originally by: yuancongxin01's Wife I read EULA once more. I had just found, that CCP reserved all the rights. I mean all. We paid for gaming, we are customer. What kind of rights we have? Something like, petition can only vai online? Get a genuine Windows. Or, play using Linux. (Yes, it should work already)
Freya Selene Infinitus Odium The Church.	Posted - 2007.10.24 12:08:00 - [16] Originally by: yuancongxin01's Wife I read EULA once more. I had just found, that CCP reserved all the rights. I mean all. We paid for gaming, we are customer. What kind of rights we have? Something like, petition can only vai online? Regardless what they have stated in there EULA, they are still bound by goverment and international law. They may ask from you to provide your windows ID, and you can be willingly to provide it. But you can also decline there request. As for them scanning your system for the ID, if they do so they are breaking laws. Regardless if they stated in the EULA that you are giving permission or not when playing the game (anyone remembers the microsoft authentication software incident?).
yuancongxin01's Wife	Posted - 2007.10.24 12:16:00 - [17] I know that GM are trying everything to reduce the amounts of Farmer, to ban them. Thats good. But I just feeling, that GM are starting doing something wrong. I saw the return from GMs. But I cant just copy them here, and let all to see them. If I do, I will be banned with no discuss. But as a friend. I read it. And I just feel angry. From the Words. I feel, GM is god, is judge.
Gner Dechast Gallente Flashman Services	Posted - 2007.10.24 12:17:00 - [18] "all rights reserved" refers to the intellectual and property rights of the product/service. It doesn't involve your basic rights as a customer or individual (data protection act, Directive 95/46/EC of the European Parliament and of the Council of 24 October 1995 on the protection of individuals with regard to the processing of personal data and on the free movement of such data and derived local legistlations in EU memberstates). At any rate, EULA's and any other kind of agreement in conflict with local legistlation is null and void if it conflicts with local legistlation (in it's entirety), so they can't contain obscene conditions or take freedoms over your privacy. But as far as I see, CCP is honoring EU directives very well indeed. On the subject of Product ID, I called up ministry of justice (help line) and confirmed the status on this. Product ID is not considered equal to your actual product license, and may be obtained as a proof of purchase by the provider. However, not even the provider can obtain your actual license without your approval, as it is considered as your asset and doing so constitutes theft. So, I guess using Product ID and IP based screening is well within the legal boundaries. ...this also makes alot of sense why would such a thing exist in the first place, as Product ID (over using License key). So in short, I am convinced no rights are violated. Infact, rather nice to hear about actual moves against the scourge that is ISK farming and sales
Macro Slasher	Posted - 2007.10.24 12:20:00 - [19] Originally by: Freya Selene Regardless what they have stated in there EULA, they are still bound by goverment and international law. They may ask from you to provide your windows ID, and you can be willingly to provide it. But you can also decline there request. As for them scanning your system for the ID, if they do so they are breaking laws. Regardless if they stated in the EULA that you are giving permission or not when playing the game (anyone remembers the microsoft authentication software incident?). International laws do not apply to this case. As an integral part of an online service it is common agreement that the applying laws are of the hosting place. Which afaik is UK, and the EULA and disagreements between CCP and the users in this case would have to be handled in the UK (unless if the eula contains an agreement of an other place) and with the UK's law system. I can not talk of the UK (I don't know it well) but in most European countries service providers are legally allowed to scan your computer to the extent that is required for them to be able to quarantee sufficient security and the level of service. Anti-cheat measures such as "punkbuster" and whatever Eve uses are plain legal and are allowed to scan your system, including the Windows ID. No law system could explicitly prevent from them doing that as it would make many if not most of the online services extremely hard to implement. Please note thought that it is possible to have disagreement about the extent of this scanning (limited to the only really necessary software & hardware components etc) and the practices of the storage of this data. They should not be linked to specific end user information pieces etc. Needless to say it is extremely tricky area. To bottom line is: It is perfectly legal, and you can choose not to play Eve if you don't like it. Ethically.. Using pirated Windows.. It's wrong.
Strak Yogorn Amarr	Posted - 2007.10.24 12:23:00 - [20] dont sell isk then.. problem solved
Mashie Saldana Minmatar Hooligans Of War Insurgency	Posted - 2007.10.24 12:24:00 - [21] I'm curious why you even would talk to a GM about that. Have you been banned or tried to circumvent the restriction of number of trial accounts? Please let us know, would be interesting to know. Jita fix: The distributed market hub
Sopha Serpentia Core Dynamics	Posted - 2007.10.24 12:28:00 - [22] Edited by: Sopha Serpentia on 24/10/2007 12:28:38 ISPs are protected by private data protection laws, while Microsoft product numbers are protected by copyright laws. A GM is an agent for a corporate body you have a contract with, that corporate body may or may not be working in partnership with Microsoft and/or local/international authorities to not only protect thier intellectual property but also stamp out crime. Isk selling is a crime, piracy is a crime, don't do the crime then come whinging on here looking for a clause to get you out.
yuancongxin01's Wife	Posted - 2007.10.24 12:29:00 - [23] Edited by: yuancongxin01''s Wife on 24/10/2007 12:33:05 Originally by: Mashie Saldana I'm curious why you even would talk to a GM about that. Have you been banned or tried to circumvent the restriction of number of trial accounts? Please let us know, would be interesting to know. :D I have never be banned, oder did something wrong. Just because of the thing happened on my friend, I m starting to interpellate the whole things. about EULA, GM .... The things I said here, has happened and is happening. so CCP or GM should come out, and explain for that. I dont want to be blind all the time. even the next 20 years. And you? you all?
Macro Slasher	Posted - 2007.10.24 12:37:00 - [24] Originally by: Sopha Serpentia ISPs are protected by private data protection laws, while Microsoft product numbers are protected by copyright laws. A GM is an agent for a corporate body you have a contract with, that corporate body may or may not be working in partnership with Microsoft and/or local/international authorities to not only protect thier intellectual property but also stamp out crime. Isk selling is a crime, piracy is a crime, don't do the crime then come whinging on here looking for a clause to get you out. The Windows installation IDs itself are not protected by anything. It is different from the numbers you use for installing the Windows. Whether CCP has any connection with Microsoft or not is mostly irrelevant in this issue.
Fswd	Posted - 2007.10.24 12:41:00 - [25] Edited by: Fswd on 24/10/2007 12:41:22 Originally by: yuancongxin01's Wife I think so, GM dont have the right to see our Windows ID. snip GM, you wanna Ban them all? YEAH --- Free exotic dancers for mods that mod my sig Snip* Please do not discuss moderation in your signature. -Yipsilanti ([email protected]) <-- freebie for you
yuancongxin01's Wife	Posted - 2007.10.24 12:42:00 - [26] Edited by: yuancongxin01''s Wife on 24/10/2007 12:42:15 Originally by: Macro Slasher Originally by: Sopha Serpentia ISPs are protected by private data protection laws, while Microsoft product numbers are protected by copyright laws. A GM is an agent for a corporate body you have a contract with, that corporate body may or may not be working in partnership with Microsoft and/or local/international authorities to not only protect thier intellectual property but also stamp out crime. Isk selling is a crime, piracy is a crime, don't do the crime then come whinging on here looking for a clause to get you out. The Windows installation IDs itself are not protected by anything. It is different from the numbers you use for installing the Windows. Whether CCP has any connection with Microsoft or not is mostly irrelevant in this issue. for example. Microsoft has the right to know his Product ID. Apple has the right to know which iPod be sold to me. and CCP?
Gone'Postal Minmatar Vengeance 8 Interceptors	Posted - 2007.10.24 12:49:00 - [27] Originally by: yuancongxin01's Wife for example. Microsoft has the right to know his Product ID. Apple has the right to know which iPod be sold to me. and CCP? have the right to ban whoever they like for whatever reason, Hell they could ban me right now and give the reason that members of my family hate giving DEV's oral. ---- \0/ CCP SlideShow Games \0/ "Eve" Proof that <1FPS games can still generate income.
Ather Ialeas Amarr Exercitus Solus	Posted - 2007.10.24 12:51:00 - [28] Originally by: Gner Dechast "all rights reserved" refers to the intellectual and property rights of the product/service. It doesn't involve your basic rights as a customer or individual (data protection act, Directive 95/46/EC of the European Parliament and of the Council of 24 October 1995 on the protection of individuals with regard to the processing of personal data and on the free movement of such data and derived local legistlations in EU memberstates). At any rate, EULA's and any other kind of agreement in conflict with local legistlation is null and void if it conflicts with local legistlation (in it's entirety), so they can't contain obscene conditions or take freedoms over your privacy. But as far as I see, CCP is honoring EU directives very well indeed. On the subject of Product ID, I called up ministry of justice (help line) and confirmed the status on this. Product ID is not considered equal to your actual product license, and may be obtained as a proof of purchase by the provider. However, not even the provider can obtain your actual license without your approval, as it is considered as your asset and doing so constitutes theft. So, I guess using Product ID and IP based screening is well within the legal boundaries. ...this also makes alot of sense why would such a thing exist in the first place, as Product ID (over using License key). So in short, I am convinced no rights are violated. Infact, rather nice to hear about actual moves against the scourge that is ISK farming and sales You seem to be an experience Internet Lawyer. The only thing that's making me go "whuh?" at the moment is how CCP has gotten the Windows PID in the first place since that may be on the gray zone legally. Then again, if the EVE client is a data miner and it's stated clearly in the install program then I guess it's OK too, just a bit devious. -
Macro Slasher	Posted - 2007.10.24 12:51:00 - [29] Originally by: yuancongxin01's Wife for example. Microsoft has the right to know his Product ID. Apple has the right to know which iPod be sold to me. and CCP? Has the right to see your Windows product ID for anti-cheating purposes such as thwarting RMT. Most likely is not allowed to store the non-banned IDs extensively over years etc, but is allowed to store the banned IDs and check the connecting clients ID against the ban list and store the previous ID of users for a short while.

GM Grimmi	Posted - 2007.10.24 13:14:00 - [30] Hello everyone, I just want to clear this up real quick. GMs are NOT able to see users' Windows Product IDs. What we are able to see, is a hashed value of Windows Product ID key. We have no way to see the actual Windows Product ID key but we can cross reference the hashed value and see if a given user shares that with another user. Thank you all, GM Grimmi Lead Game Master EVE CSS

Poister Amarr THEM. Praesidium Libertatis	Posted - 2007.10.24 13:26:00 - [31] Edited by: Poister on 24/10/2007 13:26:04 Originally by: GM Grimmi Hello everyone, I just want to clear this up real quick. GMs are NOT able to see users' Windows Product IDs. What we are able to see, is a hashed value of Windows Product ID key. We have no way to see the actual Windows Product ID key but we can cross reference the hashed value and see if a given user shares that with another user. I'd just like to point out something .. I hope CCP are aware Of "Windows Corparation" product ID's, As that 1 ID can cover hundreds and in very large organisasions thousands of PC's Just a thought. Thank you all,
Tzar'rim Minmatar Eve University	Posted - 2007.10.24 13:36:00 - [32] Originally by: Poister Edited by: Poister on 24/10/2007 13:26:04 Originally by: GM Grimmi Hello everyone, I just want to clear this up real quick. GMs are NOT able to see users' Windows Product IDs. What we are able to see, is a hashed value of Windows Product ID key. We have no way to see the actual Windows Product ID key but we can cross reference the hashed value and see if a given user shares that with another user. I'd just like to point out something .. I hope CCP are aware Of "Windows Corparation" product ID's, As that 1 ID can cover hundreds and in very large organisasions thousands of PC's Just a thought. Thank you all, And they are allowed for home/non-corporate use for us to play games on.... kinda. Act quickly, think slowly.
flashfreaking LFC FreeFall Securities	Posted - 2007.10.24 13:36:00 - [33] GM's are a necessary evil, and so is the constant hunt against ISK-sellers and farmers, I for one don't care at all what they do to extinguish it asap, as I'm not being harmed at all, 'caus I ain't one... -This statements reflects my opinion, and not the one from my corporation and alliance-
Lagerstars Caldari Independent Operations Amen Anera	Posted - 2007.10.24 13:45:00 - [34] Its definitely good to see action being taken in such a comprehensive manor. Fingers crossed our corporate keys arent leaked and mis-used :) ----------------------------------------- - This space intentionally left blank -

CCP Lingorm	Posted - 2007.10.24 13:45:00 - [35] Edited by: CCP Lingorm on 24/10/2007 13:46:02 Originally by: Poister Edited by: Poister on 24/10/2007 13:26:04 Originally by: GM Grimmi Hello everyone, I just want to clear this up real quick. GMs are NOT able to see users' Windows Product IDs. What we are able to see, is a hashed value of Windows Product ID key. We have no way to see the actual Windows Product ID key but we can cross reference the hashed value and see if a given user shares that with another user. I'd just like to point out something .. I hope CCP are aware Of "Windows Corparation" product ID's, As that 1 ID can cover hundreds and in very large organisasions thousands of PC's Just a thought. Thank you all, That is true, but when windows hashes the Product ID it uses stuff like the CPU S/N, and Motherboard S/N so that the HASH is unique for each machine it is installed on. So while machines maybe installed using the same Product Key the Hashes will be different. CCP Lingorm CCP Quality Assurance QA Engineering Team Leader

Lagerstars Caldari Independent Operations Amen Anera	Posted - 2007.10.24 13:50:00 - [36] So based on that, it would be near on impossible to exclude someone on this basis by mistake. Goodbye Farmers ----------------------------------------- - This space intentionally left blank -
Maximillion Carter	Posted - 2007.10.24 13:52:00 - [37] Originally by: CCP Lingorm That is true, but when windows hashes the Product ID it uses stuff like the CPU S/N, and Motherboard S/N so that the HASH is unique for each machine it is installed on. So while machines maybe installed using the same Product Key the Hashes will be different. So accounts which connect with the same hashed Product ID as a known ISK farmer has in the past must be connecting using the same PC and therefor there's a pretty good chance it's the same person. Why not prevent the client connecting with known bad user Product ID's.
Maltitol Gallente Tides of Silence Hydra Alliance	Posted - 2007.10.24 13:54:00 - [38] this bring up a question... can somebody an online friend log in and change a skill for you once in a blue moon? or is that automatically a double ban for sharing? Originally by: CCP Wrangler Well boohoo.
Mashie Saldana Minmatar Hooligans Of War Insurgency	Posted - 2007.10.24 13:55:00 - [39] Originally by: CCP Lingorm That is true, but when windows hashes the Product ID it uses stuff like the CPU S/N, and Motherboard S/N so that the HASH is unique for each machine it is installed on. So while machines maybe installed using the same Product Key the Hashes will be different. Now that is a nice feature, too bad this thread just revealed that info to the farmers... Jita fix: The distributed market hub
Haks'he Lirky Dominion Imperium	Posted - 2007.10.24 13:55:00 - [40] Originally by: Maximillion Carter Originally by: CCP Lingorm That is true, but when windows hashes the Product ID it uses stuff like the CPU S/N, and Motherboard S/N so that the HASH is unique for each machine it is installed on. So while machines maybe installed using the same Product Key the Hashes will be different. So accounts which connect with the same hashed Product ID as a known ISK farmer has in the past must be connecting using the same PC and therefor there's a pretty good chance it's the same person. Why not prevent the client connecting with known bad user Product ID's. Well, then they couldnt ban that account :) much better to get the isk sellers to give ccp money for the account and then ban their sorry assess...
Haks'he Lirky Dominion Imperium	Posted - 2007.10.24 13:56:00 - [41] Originally by: Maltitol this bring up a question... can somebody an online friend log in and change a skill for you once in a blue moon? or is that automatically a double ban for sharing? Is your friend a isk seller?
Poister Amarr THEM. Praesidium Libertatis	Posted - 2007.10.24 13:57:00 - [42] That is true, but when windows hashes the Product ID it uses stuff like the CPU S/N, and Motherboard S/N so that the HASH is unique for each machine it is installed on. So while machines maybe installed using the same Product Key the Hashes will be different. excellent ... thx for the reply ..... now i can go back to playing eve at work
Maltitol Gallente Tides of Silence Hydra Alliance	Posted - 2007.10.24 13:58:00 - [43] Originally by: Haks'he Lirky Originally by: Maltitol this bring up a question... can somebody an online friend log in and change a skill for you once in a blue moon? or is that automatically a double ban for sharing? Is your friend a isk seller? lol, no a real player.. but as per the eula, account sharing is bannable.. but how loose/tight is that? does sharing mean full out playing the account? or even logging in once to change a skill and gtfo Originally by: CCP Wrangler Well boohoo.
DubanFP Caldari Four Rings Phalanx Alliance	Posted - 2007.10.24 14:01:00 - [44] Edited by: DubanFP on 24/10/2007 14:02:20 Also if he means the same Physical IP adress as opposed to the same Logical IP adress that can't be faked. Normally you see & use the logical IP adress. However, every Network card in the world has it's own unique MAC adress "Physical IP adress". Basically unless you're using someone else's NIC to connect to the internet you're guilty as charged. ___________ Desolacer> Who the heck gives YOU the right to ruin it for others buy blowing them up. Zaqar> CCP
Haks'he Lirky Dominion Imperium	Posted - 2007.10.24 14:03:00 - [45] Originally by: Maltitol Originally by: Haks'he Lirky Originally by: Maltitol this bring up a question... can somebody an online friend log in and change a skill for you once in a blue moon? or is that automatically a double ban for sharing? Is your friend a isk seller? lol, no a real player.. but as per the eula, account sharing is bannable.. but how loose/tight is that? does sharing mean full out playing the account? or even logging in once to change a skill and gtfo I dont know how harsh ccp are with this rule, it's not allowed in the EULA to account share but I think that is mostly to protect them from stupid support cases. i.e. no we do not cover cat explosions in the microwave under the home insurance contract. Besides, gaining account sharing evidence from windows hash id's isnt valid as I could be visiting my friend and I logged in to change skills.
Maltitol Gallente Tides of Silence Hydra Alliance	Posted - 2007.10.24 14:10:00 - [46] Originally by: Haks'he Lirky Besides, gaining account sharing evidence from windows hash id's isnt valid as I could be visiting my friend and I logged in to change skills. exactly why i asked the question.. how far does the law go here before you get banned? what if you wanted to play for a bit on your friends pc, who also has an eve account... where is the line? Originally by: CCP Wrangler Well boohoo.
Mashie Saldana Minmatar Hooligans Of War Insurgency	Posted - 2007.10.24 14:27:00 - [47] Originally by: Maltitol this bring up a question... can somebody an online friend log in and change a skill for you once in a blue moon? or is that automatically a double ban for sharing? No you are not allowed to share your login details. This feature is probably only used for serious offences (account hacking / isk laundry) as I would have been banned otherwise as I have used my friends computer while visiting to swap skills. Jita fix: The distributed market hub
Argenton Sayvers	Posted - 2007.10.24 14:28:00 - [48] Edited by: Argenton Sayvers on 24/10/2007 14:31:59 Originally by: Maltitol lol, no a real player.. but as per the eula, account sharing is bannable.. but how loose/tight is that? Simple answer: if CCP would actually enforce this rule, there wouldnt be a single alliance left in eve.
Firkragg Blue Labs Knights Of the Southerncross	Posted - 2007.10.24 14:38:00 - [49] Originally by: CCP Lingorm Edited by: CCP Lingorm on 24/10/2007 13:46:02 Originally by: Poister Edited by: Poister on 24/10/2007 13:26:04 Originally by: GM Grimmi Hello everyone, I just want to clear this up real quick. GMs are NOT able to see users' Windows Product IDs. What we are able to see, is a hashed value of Windows Product ID key. We have no way to see the actual Windows Product ID key but we can cross reference the hashed value and see if a given user shares that with another user. I'd just like to point out something .. I hope CCP are aware Of "Windows Corparation" product ID's, As that 1 ID can cover hundreds and in very large organisasions thousands of PC's Just a thought. Thank you all, That is true, but when windows hashes the Product ID it uses stuff like the CPU S/N, and Motherboard S/N so that the HASH is unique for each machine it is installed on. So while machines maybe installed using the same Product Key the Hashes will be different. Does this mean CCP are not going to be the next line of defence against people pirating windows? Probs more effective than WGA tbh
Taedrin Gallente Magellan Exploration and Survey Rare Faction	Posted - 2007.10.24 14:50:00 - [50] Originally by: CCP Lingorm Edited by: CCP Lingorm on 24/10/2007 13:46:02 Originally by: Poister Edited by: Poister on 24/10/2007 13:26:04 Originally by: GM Grimmi Hello everyone, I just want to clear this up real quick. GMs are NOT able to see users' Windows Product IDs. What we are able to see, is a hashed value of Windows Product ID key. We have no way to see the actual Windows Product ID key but we can cross reference the hashed value and see if a given user shares that with another user. I'd just like to point out something .. I hope CCP are aware Of "Windows Corparation" product ID's, As that 1 ID can cover hundreds and in very large organisasions thousands of PC's Just a thought. Thank you all, That is true, but when windows hashes the Product ID it uses stuff like the CPU S/N, and Motherboard S/N so that the HASH is unique for each machine it is installed on. So while machines maybe installed using the same Product Key the Hashes will be different. Unless you have a Hash Collision, but now I'm just being picky
Kazuma Saruwatari	Posted - 2007.10.24 14:51:00 - [51] Edited by: Kazuma Saruwatari on 24/10/2007 14:52:18 Originally by: Maltitol this bring up a question... can somebody an online friend log in and change a skill for you once in a blue moon? or is that automatically a double ban for sharing? Comment please from Dev/GM. There are literally thousands who exercise this for their friends in good faith (and unfortunately, quire a few who dont), and seeing a sizable portion of EVE's playerbase banned because of a skillchange for one's buddy just sounds a bit overkill, even if it isnt outright bannable at this stage. I just dont want another grey area of coverage from the GM's on this matter. We've had that before already with suicide ganking before it became "legal". - Odd Pod Out, a blog of EVE Online
DubanFP Caldari Four Rings Phalanx Alliance	Posted - 2007.10.24 14:56:00 - [52] Edited by: DubanFP on 24/10/2007 14:56:21 Originally by: Kazuma Saruwatari Edited by: Kazuma Saruwatari on 24/10/2007 14:52:18 Originally by: Maltitol this bring up a question... can somebody an online friend log in and change a skill for you once in a blue moon? or is that automatically a double ban for sharing? Comment please from Dev/GM. There are literally thousands who exercise this for their friends in good faith (and unfortunately, quire a few who dont), and seeing a sizable portion of EVE's playerbase banned because of a skillchange for one's buddy just sounds a bit overkill, even if it isnt outright bannable at this stage. I just dont want another grey area of coverage from the GM's on this matter. We've had that before already with suicide ganking before it became "legal". The main reason they have the rules is so if someone shares their account or password then that person tries to take over the account & kick off person #2 they don't have to deal with the ****feast he said/she said situation. Whole lot easier to either force them to figure it out themselves or ban them both. Short of a situation like that I don't think CCP really cares, even if it is technically against the EULA. Just don't go around announcing it "like on a public forum" . ___________ Desolacer> Who the heck gives YOU the right to ruin it for others buy blowing them up. Zaqar> CCP
Kayna Eelai Gallente GNATHIC	Posted - 2007.10.24 14:57:00 - [53] Originally by: Gone'Postal Originally by: yuancongxin01's Wife I think so, GM dont have the right to see our Windows ID. But they are doing that, as I known I am lucky, that I am not in China. And I am not a Farmer. But some of my best friend were be banned. because 'your Windows Product ID is same as isk seller, how can you explain that?' Can anyone explain that to me? I think, almost everyone know, that in China, almost no one using original-Windows System, even the other Software. That mean, its possibly they have all the same Windows ID. GM, you wanna Ban them all? Well I guess using pirate copys of windows does suck in some cases, oh well... if the eve player has or not an original windows, is none of CCPs business. actually there are many countries (for example all .SK domains, which i don't know what country exctaly it is) which have no software copyright laws, so it's actually perfectly fine to run pirate copies in those countries. but as said, the windows ID is none of CCP business and i don't think it should be possible to use a windows ID as argument for a ban. world of warcraft has had big complaints from all users a few years ago, as their game loader gathered just "a little bit too much" info. i would like to know what's CCP stand on this issue. fixed to 23.15 kB (23710 bytes)
Seamus Drummer	Posted - 2007.10.24 14:58:00 - [54] Originally by: Gner Dechast So, I guess using Product ID and IP based screening is well within the legal boundaries. ...this also makes alot of sense why would such a thing exist in the first place, as Product ID (over using License key). But that would be a foolish attempt. All of the PCs in our company have the same Product ID as they were set up from one image. So are my two PCs at home. Nothing wrong with this, as long as you have a valid license for each copy. You just simply don't run around and set up hundreds of PCs from CD/DVD.
DubanFP Caldari Four Rings Phalanx Alliance	Posted - 2007.10.24 15:01:00 - [55] Edited by: DubanFP on 24/10/2007 15:04:08 Originally by: Seamus Drummer Originally by: Gner Dechast So, I guess using Product ID and IP based screening is well within the legal boundaries. ...this also makes alot of sense why would such a thing exist in the first place, as Product ID (over using License key). But that would be a foolish attempt. All of the PCs in our company have the same Product ID as they were set up from one image. So are my two PCs at home. Nothing wrong with this, as long as you have a valid license for each copy. You just simply don't run around and set up hundreds of PCs from CD/DVD. Yeah but they also catch him on the MAC adress "Physical Adress". This isn't the logical IP adress that most people are used to using. This is an address unique to each and every Network card. In theory you can switch Network Cards around, but it's pretty doubtful someone would have the same Windows ID & MAC address as a Isk selling company computer unless they're guilty as charged. Especially in a small game like this. ___________ Desolacer> Who the heck gives YOU the right to ruin it for others buy blowing them up. Zaqar> CCP
Kayna Eelai Gallente GNATHIC	Posted - 2007.10.24 15:06:00 - [56] Edited by: Kayna Eelai on 24/10/2007 15:07:15 Originally by: DubanFP Yeah but they also catch him on the MAC adress "Physical Adress". This isn't the logical IP adress that most people are used to using. This is an address unique to each and every Network card. In theory you can switch Network Cards around, but it's pretty doubtful someone would have the same Windows ID & MAC address as a Isk selling company computer unless they're guilty as charged. Especially in a small game like this. MAC is not a valid identification method either. it can easily be changed to something else. PLUS some of the first realtek cards had a bug in the winXP driver which made the OS and the drivers think your mac was 00-00-00-00-00 (digit missing? cant remember, lol) fixed to 23.15 kB (23710 bytes)
Tradelade	Posted - 2007.10.24 15:09:00 - [57] Yes! Go go GM's, ban them all! Good work CCP, don't let the whines stop you, get rid off these farmers and sellers. You are obviously atleast hurting 'em! Good job!
Freya Selene Infinitus Odium The Church.	Posted - 2007.10.24 15:10:00 - [58] Originally by: CCP Lingorm Edited by: CCP Lingorm on 24/10/2007 13:46:02 Originally by: Poister Edited by: Poister on 24/10/2007 13:26:04 Originally by: GM Grimmi Hello everyone, I just want to clear this up real quick. GMs are NOT able to see users' Windows Product IDs. What we are able to see, is a hashed value of Windows Product ID key. We have no way to see the actual Windows Product ID key but we can cross reference the hashed value and see if a given user shares that with another user. I'd just like to point out something .. I hope CCP are aware Of "Windows Corparation" product ID's, As that 1 ID can cover hundreds and in very large organisasions thousands of PC's Just a thought. Thank you all, That is true, but when windows hashes the Product ID it uses stuff like the CPU S/N, and Motherboard S/N so that the HASH is unique for each machine it is installed on. So while machines maybe installed using the same Product Key the Hashes will be different. Still baning accounts based on the windows hash ID, instead of any other prove like CC card, NAP or other avidence alike sounds a bit thin. But probly one of the last resorts, unless you require cc information on trail accounts (and losing the easy "try and get hooked" trick)..
DubanFP Caldari Four Rings Phalanx Alliance	Posted - 2007.10.24 15:13:00 - [59] Originally by: Kayna Eelai Originally by: DubanFP Yeah but they also catch him on the MAC adress "Physical Adress". This isn't the logical IP adress that most people are used to using. This is an address unique to each and every Network card. In theory you can switch Network Cards around, but it's pretty doubtful someone would have the same Windows ID & MAC address as a Isk selling company computer unless they're guilty as charged. Especially in a small game like this. MAC is not a valid identification method either. it can easily be changed to something else. PLUS some of the first realtek cards had a bug in the winXP driver which made the OS and the drivers think your max was 00-00-00-00-00 (digit missing? cant remember, lol) You can make it look different to an outside viewer yes. However, the actual MAC is still on the NIC. Not to mention the changing of a MAC address is more likely to be used to avoid getting busted. The likelyhood of someone changing their MAC address to perfectly match up with an ISK buyer's AND having the same Windows key AND who plays EVE is just soo small I can't really see it happening. Not to mention if the MAC comes from within "data gathered in the connection from client to Server" it wouldn't be hard to get the real MAC address rather then the changed one. Basically it's theoretically possible, but increadibly unlikely that the Windows key and the MAC adress would line up by coincidence. Unless the OP at least has some tie/ties to the company even if second hand "like buying a used computer that used to belong to an ISK buying company". ___________ Desolacer> Who the heck gives YOU the right to ruin it for others buy blowing them up. Zaqar> CCP
Sun Ra Grumpy Old Farts Gruntfuttocks	Posted - 2007.10.24 15:24:00 - [60] Lets me guess You heard rumours of M$ buying EvE & your thinking that M$ mite found out your using a illegal copy of windows ?
Kayna Eelai Gallente GNATHIC	Posted - 2007.10.24 15:24:00 - [61] Originally by: DubanFP You can make it look different to an outside viewer yes. However, the actual MAC is still on the NIC. i'm telling u: you can change the REAL MAC of a NIC. just google "MAC CHANGE" and you'll find it soon enough, somewhere hidden in middle of all the software ones. novadays, all that info is stored on an EPROM on the NICs and perfectly possible to change em. actually i got the software for it somewhere at my office. it's a very simple bootdisk (as it has to be done from msdos or linux) with just an .exe file which lets you see the actual mac or change it. fixed to 23.15 kB (23710 bytes)
Brixer Dai Dai Hai	Posted - 2007.10.24 15:42:00 - [62] Originally by: Maltitol this bring up a question... can somebody an online friend log in and change a skill for you once in a blue moon? or is that automatically a double ban for sharing? Wont happen. I'm using 3 computers at home and 2 at work logging in 2 different accounts. I've never got any questions about that. Several times I've forgot to log out the work-computer and forced it off by logging on at home.. Still not heard anything even tho that would really seems like account sharing.
DubanFP Caldari Four Rings Phalanx Alliance	Posted - 2007.10.24 16:02:00 - [63] Edited by: DubanFP on 24/10/2007 16:03:47 Originally by: Kayna Eelai Originally by: DubanFP You can make it look different to an outside viewer yes. However, the actual MAC is still on the NIC. i'm telling u: you can change the REAL MAC of a NIC. just google "MAC CHANGE" and you'll find it soon enough, somewhere hidden in middle of all the software ones. novadays, all that info is stored on an EPROM on the NICs and perfectly possible to change em. actually i got the software for it somewhere at my office. it's a very simple bootdisk (as it has to be done from msdos or linux) with just an .exe file which lets you see the actual mac or change it. I already gave you the benifit of the doubt in the last post, but tell me this. He would either have to have the same pirated Windows Key "even if he's innocent he's guilty so no mercy from me" or same legitiment KEY "which ties his computer to the Farmers". What are the chances of that happening with the same farmer around the world having changed his MAC address to the exact same address as the op "very unlikely in itself", AND the person who just happens to match both of these criteria also just happens to be a player of EVE online? It's just too unlikely to be coincidence. There has to be a connection beyond dumb luck, it's just too implausible. ___________ Desolacer> Who the heck gives YOU the right to ruin it for others buy blowing them up. Zaqar> CCP

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