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Mark Lucius Forbidden Lore	Posted - 2007.10.29 15:26:00 - [91] Torpedoes are going to be more distinct from Cruise missiles than they used to be, making it so that it becomes a real choice between the two. How is this homogenised (sp?)/ cookie cutter? Drone bays are going to be bigger, bandwidth is being limited. This means that more choices need to be made, resulting in less cookie-cutter setups. How is this homogenised? The Gallente battlecruiser and fleet commandship are being brought in line with their racial counterparts. This stops the other BC/CS from being instant underdogs and thus more attractive as choices. Again, more choice. How is this making Eve homogenised? I do understand what the OP means though. However, the performance difference should not be a quality that is race or ship specific, but should be acquired through clever use of modules and skills. Examples: Rupture vs. Myrmidon, both with average skills and 'average' pvp setups. Who wins? Given the role, the Myrmidon should be a clear favourite. Nobody will contest this. Harbinger vs. Myrmidon, both with average skills and 'average' pvp setups. Who wins? This should be unclear, mostly depending on luck. However, I am sure that most of you would clearly favour the Myrmidon. Now, everybody knows that neither example is comletely realistic, but it is the general concensus. CCP strives to make the second example depend more on skills, fitting and piloting skills and less on exactly which battlecruiser is in this fight. According to his OP, Alkeena is looking for exactly this. ---
Matrixcvd Shadows of the Dead Aftermath Alliance	Posted - 2007.10.29 16:25:00 - [92] Originally by: Mark Lucius Torpedoes are going to be more distinct from Cruise missiles than they used to be, making it so that it becomes a real choice between the two. How is this homogenised (sp?)/ cookie cutter? Drone bays are going to be bigger, bandwidth is being limited. This means that more choices need to be made, resulting in less cookie-cutter setups. How is this homogenised? I have to disaggree. Look, bottom line is this game is now about speed in every aspect. Very few encounters in real PVP are going to see torps being used. The raven is a specialized ship for PVE, and sometimes POS warefare with proper skillz, and maybe in fleet fights as drone, logistic support ( No good FC wants to have to wait 25 seconds for his pilot to bring damage to a called target). Changing torps isn't going to bring a raven into PVP because its useless in pvp. What this does is kill people from making money efficiently and as safe as possible. With proper skills torps are a huge dps improvement over cruise, which is why a ratting raven is all you see the isk farmers use, and all us caldari for that matter. The drone changes aren't ment to balance anything, they are ment to cover inadequacies in game mechanics and system resources that have been built up over years. Instead of fixing the lag, they recognize drones as a source of lag, and say screw it "we dont want to buy more resources, lets just kill the drone usage" Again, this goes to disconnect at the Dev level on how this game is played. The changes being made do nothing to balance PVP combat they just hinder everything else the ship is used for. Sorry CCP, you make a ship that people don't want to use for certain functions, that doesn't mean you do an edward scissor hands to a bunch of other stuff unless you stop and think about what is the cause for the major tactical aligment when it comes to ships and thats speed, so screw these stupid changes, torps dont hit vagas or nanos unless their pilot is afk. Everything you are doing is ********
Pattern Clarc Infinitus Odium The Church.	Posted - 2007.10.29 16:35:00 - [93] Originally by: Mark Lucius Drone bays are going to be bigger, bandwidth is being limited. This means that more choices need to be made, resulting in less cookie-cutter setups. How is this homogenised? How many ships have had there drone bays enlarged? Quote: [02:31:17] ISD BH Kestrelprime > The Pally is powerful enough. [02:31:27] ISD BH Kestrelprime > All it needs is a hearthstone so it can Bubblehearth.
Mark Lucius Forbidden Lore	Posted - 2007.10.29 16:52:00 - [94] Edited by: Mark Lucius on 29/10/2007 16:52:53 Originally by: Matrixcvd I have to disaggree. Look, bottom line is this game is now about speed in every aspect. Very few encounters in real PVP are going to see torps being used. The raven is a specialized ship for PVE, and sometimes POS warefare with proper skillz, and maybe in fleet fights as drone, logistic support ( No good FC wants to have to wait 25 seconds for his pilot to bring damage to a called target). Changing torps isn't going to bring a raven into PVP because its useless in pvp. What this does is kill people from making money efficiently and as safe as possible. With proper skills torps are a huge dps improvement over cruise, which is why a ratting raven is all you see the isk farmers use, and all us caldari for that matter. The drone changes aren't ment to balance anything, they are ment to cover inadequacies in game mechanics and system resources that have been built up over years. Instead of fixing the lag, they recognize drones as a source of lag, and say screw it "we dont want to buy more resources, lets just kill the drone usage" Again, this goes to disconnect at the Dev level on how this game is played. The changes being made do nothing to balance PVP combat they just hinder everything else the ship is used for. Sorry CCP, you make a ship that people don't want to use for certain functions, that doesn't mean you do an edward scissor hands to a bunch of other stuff unless you stop and think about what is the cause for the major tactical aligment when it comes to ships and thats speed, so screw these stupid changes, torps dont hit vagas or nanos unless their pilot is afk. Everything you are doing is ****** Okie sorry, but you reply is not related to the quoted part. My text was about how design changes affect the diversity instead of claimed homogenization. Originally by:** Pattern Clarc How many ships have had there drone bays enlarged? Non so far. I am sure my claim will hold true for a number of ships with the upcoming changes. ---
Gorefacer Caldari Resurrection	Posted - 2007.10.29 16:55:00 - [95] The change in Torps doesn't really affect cruises. They currently do comparable (slightly less) damage and will retain their range and ability to better hit smaller targets. Now Caldari can choose Hi-DPS/Short Range OR Mid-DPS/Longer Range. How is this destroying a weapon system for Caldari? Also you want ships of certain races to be overpowered (because people can just cross train races ships), I disagree with this. In my opinion there should be different but loosely comparable ships for all races, or at least that should be the goal. I don't see how leaving in BCs like the Myrmidon or the old Calvary Raven BS would mean the DE-homogenization EVE when MOST people will just train to fly that ONE ship, especially if they KNOW it won't be changed by CCP. "You can't reason someone out of a belief they haven't reasoned themselves into" - Prometheus
Gorefacer Caldari Resurrection	Posted - 2007.10.29 17:06:00 - [96] Originally by: Vyktor Abyss Edited by: Vyktor Abyss on 27/10/2007 11:27:35 Great Posts Alkeena. I think you're spot on. The devs added variety for example with the BCs - with distinct differences like DPS, tanking, speed - then seem desperate to NERF them into being pretty much identical. This NERFing seems quite ill thought out since by attacking the differences that exist between the races, they actually make the game a lot more bland for everyone - especially for those older players that just see these balance changes as 'homogenization' (heh...if thats even a word!)... Spiritual Death?!? - maybe not...but definately heading along the lines of Spiritual Decay by verbose long sermons and kiddy fiddling priests ahem. Alkeena for Community Council Representative! [x] How are Myrmidons, Drakes, Harbinger and Hurricane IDENTICAL? They have different slot layouts, different weapon systems, different drone bay sizes, different speeds, different ranges, different tanking systems etc. It's not as dire as you think it is. I guess with all the nerfing, I should be able to take the mods I currently have for my BC, train another race, use the same mods to fit the different BC, fly the ship the same way Im used to, and I'll get comparable results to my original BC, right? "You can't reason someone out of a belief they haven't reasoned themselves into" - Prometheus
Brianna Talnor	Posted - 2007.10.29 17:10:00 - [97] This thread started out as a cleverly designed myrmidon nerf rant and then suddenly became a very very interesting discussion of homogenization and balance. On that note... All the nerfs i've seen so far in this upcoming patch are needed badly except for the cruiser nerf. But the cruiser still needs to be changed. Torps are now more interesting for PvP but probably still underpowered. Does this make it bad news for a weapon system that will now underperform in both PvE and PvP? My take is; oh noess it will take a little longer to afk missions in your raven with cruises...all well. As for PvP, that is less predictable and will have to wait to be seen.
Ryoji Tanakama Caldari Daikoku Fleet Shipyards	Posted - 2007.10.29 19:18:00 - [98] Originally by: Garia666 in the old days amarr had the geddon with the heat sinks staking.. making it a n effective ship. Amarr was happy and notorious The geddon with no heatsink stacking penalty was no effective, it was insane. Every other ship was a geddon simply because they were SO MUCH better than everything else. They got nerfed and for a time things were more sensible... then they got sat on by the 'tanking boost' and haven't really been the same since. ~Ryoji Tanakama Daikoku Fleet Shipyards
Ryoji Tanakama Caldari Daikoku Fleet Shipyards	Posted - 2007.10.29 19:27:00 - [99] Originally by: Gorefacer The change in Torps doesn't really affect cruises. They currently do comparable (slightly less) damage and will retain their range and ability to better hit smaller targets. Now Caldari can choose Hi-DPS/Short Range OR Mid-DPS/Longer Range. How is this destroying a weapon system for Caldari? I think the problem is that now a choice has to be made. Now it's Cruise or Torps where before it was just Torps. Torps never saw extensive PvP use anyway, and in those situations torps will be more effective, as you've always needed tacking support to ensure effective application of such a slow weapon. In PvP they have always had a much shorter effective range than their actual range. If anything torps will now be better for small squad PvP as you'll be doing more damage overall while your buddies hold the target in place for you. What this means is that some mission runners will have to alter their tactics, it's really not going to be that difficult but you will need to consider what you're likely to encounter in the mission or fit some speed modifications or whatever. The world hasn't really ended here. It's not tough to get in range of 30km for some battleship nukage, perhaps the problem is not being able to sit on the next acceleration gate and watch the next episode of heros while you make a profit? ~Ryoji Tanakama Daikoku Fleet Shipyards
Qui Shon	Posted - 2007.10.29 22:46:00 - [100] Originally by: Ryoji Tanakama It's not tough to get in range of 30km for some battleship nukage, perhaps the problem is not being able to sit on the next acceleration gate and watch the next episode of heros while you make a profit? Not tough, but highly ineffective. I'm so tired of people saying that ridiculous line, as if this was a nerf to afk missioning, when clearly it isn't. Torps are only more effective then cruises if properly controlled. If you're afk, you're wasting torps like crazy. Afk raven is a cruise raven, and it won't be changed at all.
Devious Syn	Posted - 2007.10.29 23:44:00 - [101] Edited by: Devious Syn on 29/10/2007 23:44:17 /me agrees with the op "lets kill all fun or imagination in the game for the sake of "balance". Very re.tarded way to design a GAME.
Hellspawn01 Amarr Shadow Rebellion	Posted - 2007.10.29 23:56:00 - [102] Ships should not be brought in line with each race, they should get a role. You cant just take a ship and turn it into a killer when it wasnt a killer before or wasnt designed to be one. Take the scorp for example. At start it was (and perhaps still is) the best ECM BS. Then it got its role more specialized by changing the ship bonus. Or look at the domi. It had almost the same bonus at the mega at start, now it has bonuses to drones. Megathron close range, apoc+arma both close/long range and more tanks than ganks Imo, tempest long range, typhoon close range missile/close range gank ship and so on. Does that mean all ships must be able to kill any other ship of their class in a 1vs1? For the devs, yes. For me, no. Let ships stay with their role and stay with the idea of a multiplayer game where you have to do things "TOGETHER" like flying in gangs and such. Thats just my opinion about this. Ship lovers click here
Cz Ire Minmatar Unitas Nusquam Est FOUNDATI0N	Posted - 2007.11.20 21:08:00 - [103] /signed ive noticed this myself and was talking about it, and until alkeena mentioned to me she had written this post didnt know this thread existed. the torp issue is meant more that before missle bs's were not short OR long range, they were kinda omni-range, unlike the other races, and this change is makeing it so you caldari have to choose between long and short range. and from what ive seen, depending on where in eve you go there is plenty of close-range fleet combat to be had, not everyone flys around in 200km sniper blobs. the myrmidon was undoubtably a very powerful ship - but t2 fit myrm vs a t2 fit autocane, as it is, if the cane pilot has even the slightest brain to keep out of web/nos range and pop the heavy drones first the myrm is pretty easy to take down. its not the god-mobile that everyone thinks it to be, and the nerf its takeing maybe a bit excessive, although i like the idea of the bandwidth, it should be a buff not a nerf - allow us to launch as many drones as before and still carry more in the hold. this allows for more variety. I think the ops point for the myrmi though was that drones basically were the myrmi's weapon system, as it is the ishtars and domi's, and nerfing them makes them more like the other ships - drones are now a "extra" weapon system, instead of "the" weapon system. which is bad, if people want to not have guns and rely on drones, they train gallante and there should be ships that can do that role. The teir2 bc's that came out were nice and diffrent at the start, but as other posts have mentioned the distinguishing features of each of these ships is being nerfed down - drakes tanks, now myrmi's drones - whats next, loosing another turret slot on the cane? but the teir 3 battleships were not so diffrent. all 4 races got a 8 turret battleship. even the drone race. even the missle race. even the speed/mixed weapon type race. 8 turrets for everybody. that's dissapointing. and for the new ships comeing out, they are breaking a somewhat unwritten rule of racial ewar. target painting and webbing bonus's are minmatar ewar, so why are all the other races getting ships that have bonus's to either webbing or painting? surly these ships could have had bonus's in other ways to compensate (double tracking bonus's perhaps, or a bonus reduction to weapon sig radius?) Whats next, a gallante drone boat with curse-range-nos's? or a 40km scram capiblbe vagabond? Even if those ships are meant for pve, they will still be used in pvp like every other ship. Soon, will every race have a ship that can do something compairable to every other race's ship? minmatar ships, my specialty, ive noticed a trend that worrys me there as well. Minmatar ships have generally been considered "skill intensive" or "hard mode" due to mixed weapon systems - yet the focus on missles have been shrinking drastically on the newer ships. even our missle-heavy battleship, the phoon's (and lets face it, most people considered the missles and drones to be the real fit for the ship, ac's were an afterthought) t2 version is a turret ship, with not a single launcher to be found, and NONE of the new ships for minmatar have ANY missle bonus's. split the bonus's but give us an extra highslot or two to make up for lost dps, and id be much happier - flying mixed setups is why i started minmatar. Im sure other races have similar complaints. and finally, amarrian players, relax, your not so hard-done as you think. some of the top damage dealers in pvp i know are amarrian, and while it sucks to have a primary damage type with lasers that is the base strongest armor resist, t2 minmatar ammo has the same problem with sheilds (ever try to shoot a drake using barrage? dont work so well....) and while we could swap ammo to compensate for that, thats over 10 seconds of lost dps, which can still loose you the fight easy, where you guys have infinite ammo/1sec crystal change for ranges. (nerf muninn armor em resist agreed tho) --- someone make a 65 days of static pvp vid pls!!
Kenneth McCoy Vale Heavy Industries Molotov Coalition	Posted - 2007.11.20 21:32:00 - [104] I'm not reading four pages worth, but I must say, that was a very well written post, and I do agree in spirit. My opinions and views are not the official views of my Corp.
Grace	Posted - 2007.11.21 03:55:00 - [105] Edited by: Grace on 21/11/2007 03:56:24 Edited by: Grace on 21/11/2007 03:55:52 Originally by: Alkeena What I had intended to say, in not so many words, is that Eve seems to be loosing it's particular flavor and uniqueness. Yes there are still decisions to be made, yes pilot skill still factors in, but I believe it is this holds true to a much lesser extent than it has in the past. This, in turn, makes the game less appealing to me. Perhaps that is sound financial accumen. I loathe WoW, for instance, but it's highly successful and enjoyed by many. ~Alkeena How is Eve not losing uniqueness when the majority of the population begins to train and fly a ship that is clearly holding an advantage over others. Like you mentioned, you now can and have to make a choice as to which, in the case of your argument, Command Ship to fly, because, supposingly after the changes and balance are made, there is no clear winner as to which ship is better. You have to choose the ship that fits your style the most, and is the most useful in the type of encounter you plan to engage in.
Brunswick2 coracao ardente Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.11.21 05:46:00 - [106] Edited by: Brunswick2 on 21/11/2007 05:52:13 Remember when Revelations II was killing EVE? Remember when Revelations was killing EVE? Remember when Red Moon Rising was killing EVE? For being a dead MMO, it sure has a lot of subscribers. Oh, and if you want to talk about a lot of ships having the same role, try flying amarr bs.
prathe Minmatar Omega Enterprises Mostly Harmless	Posted - 2007.11.21 06:58:00 - [107] is eve dead no but alot of the new changes dont seem to be adding depth but rather cumbersome changes to a difficult and chalenging game already . i just dont see the logic in making a fast paced game with overly complicated game mechanics . honestly tho the new grafx are cool and the heavy dictor will be sweet but ide rather see the rest of the patch scrapped . it doesn't really achieve anything but make life in game more difficult and less fun . as far as i see the devs just dont communicate with players in a real open fashion its more like we thought about it decided on a solution and and you get little or no say . look at the mothership nerf and what it took just to get devs to re-examine their thinking . it's like the player base has to put a gun to their head b4 they acknowledge an issue sometimes . signature removed - please email us to find out why (include a link to the image URL) - Jacques([email protected]) why dont you just tell me ?
Paeniteo	Posted - 2007.11.21 07:12:00 - [108] Edited by: Paeniteo on 21/11/2007 07:13:56 Originally by: Alkeena Bthron will do the same damage but have to close to 5km and deal with concurrent cap and tracking issues to pull it off instead of just sitting and spamming at 30km Originally by: Alkeena (worse, actually, it's tank + links is terrible in comparison) I think the nerf herders and homogenized carebears are getting to you
Vasili Z Beasts of Burden YouWhat	Posted - 2007.11.21 07:32:00 - [109] In a whine thread I am. ------- Everything I say represents my corporation and their views.
Gaia Thorn Villains	Posted - 2007.11.21 08:57:00 - [110] Cant say this enough times now but for me what killed the flavor of eve was the 50%hp boost. It turned everything to as much gank as possible to just kill 1 ship. CCP wanted to prolong combat which in my eyes promote blobs, which if i recall correctly was what they wanted to combat ? the art of solo flying is gone now it's the time of "gangs" which doesnt require you to have a special fitting. Just fit as much gank as possible then try and jump people before they jump you. But i haggle on hoping that CCP removes the boost and brings back the solo aspect of eve.
Xtreem Gallente Knockaround Guys Inc. Privateer Alliance	Posted - 2007.11.21 09:34:00 - [111] agree with the op things being changed that iv used/fought against without issues for YEARS then they change them now as people suddenly whine they dont like it any more. tbh is driving me mad, nerfing things (not tweaking, but full nerf) of things that are fine, always been fine and would have been fine. I doubt i will last much past the 5 year mark at this rate
Moghydin Confederation of Red Moon Red Moon Federation	Posted - 2007.11.21 09:51:00 - [112] I believe CCP base their decisions on the statistics of FOTM usage. Yes, drones are getting nerfed, because drone ships are still overpowered. It was brought in line slightly with the NOS nerf so it prevented drone boats from completely sucking the cap out of the victim, having full tank and gank with drones. Torps should be different from cruise missiles, right now cruise are just light torps. I would change it the other way, torps - massive slow long range damage. Cruise - fast short-mid range missiles. I think that when you look at different statistics and see that some ship is used way above its alternatives this ship needs to be balanced. Press alt+F4 to reduce lag
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2007.11.21 10:06:00 - [113] I agree with the theory behind the OP, but don't follow the examples. I know nothing of missiles so I ignored all that. From my reading on the addition of bandwidth, it seems the idea is that ships will be able to carry more drones without allowing any firepower increases due to this, i.e. a cruiser which could carry 2 heavies can now carry 3 but only launch 2 or whatever. Decoupling the limitations on drone firepower and drone storage like this seems to allow greater variety of loadouts and more tactical usage of them, the opposite of what the OP was talking about. Am I missing something? - I wish I was a three foot female doll with a watering can and heterochromatic eyes.
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2007.11.21 12:03:00 - [114] Originally by: Esk Esme yea my english sux ignore me Fixed based on actual probable outcome. - I wish I was a three foot female doll with a watering can and heterochromatic eyes.
Cpt Branko The Bloody Red	Posted - 2007.11.21 13:16:00 - [115] Edited by: Cpt Branko on 21/11/2007 13:26:08 Title: "Balance is killing EVE" Fail thread is fail. Edit: I utterly fail to see logic in "making people fly different ships" makes eve more "homogenous". You don't different ships for different races, you want inferior ships for different races. There's a difference. With the new changes, preety much all 4 tier two BCs will be, in fact, quite balanced and still have very different flying / piloting styles.
Harisdrop Gallente Omega Enterprises Mostly Harmless	Posted - 2007.11.21 13:32:00 - [116] Oops I have heard this every major patch. As we have 200k subscribers I guess CCP is doing the right thing. At one time they had faction bonuses. Therefore your race made your ships better. Boy that made the Gallente that flew Ravens mad. I say make a spcialized char better than a guy that can fly the flavor ship of the day.
Neutrino Sunset KDM Corp Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2007.11.21 13:47:00 - [117] I share the OP's concern about growing homogeneity. I have another example not mentioned here related to the latest interceptor changes. One of each races interceptors is losing one of its interceptor bonuses and having it replaced with a propulsion jamming range bonus that is identical across the board for all races. I think this is a bad idea as it increases the similarity between them, and the interceptors of some races were not particularly distinctive to start with. What really hacks me off though is that it horribly nerfs the Stilleto to what I consider the point of uselessness. The Stiletto previously had a falloff bonus that made it stand out from the other inties, it badly needed this bonus because it only has two guns. Rather than go into that in detail I'll just point you to this very short post I made about it in the Ships and Modules channel. http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=638601&page=1#20 Why couldn't they have just given interceptors that bonus on top of the bonues they already had?
Kasiie	Posted - 2007.11.21 14:05:00 - [118] Just make LSEs and 1600s battleship only
Gorefacer Caldari Resurrection	Posted - 2007.11.21 14:08:00 - [119] Originally by: Ryoji Tanakama Originally by: Gorefacer The change in Torps doesn't really affect cruises. They currently do comparable (slightly less) damage and will retain their range and ability to better hit smaller targets. Now Caldari can choose Hi-DPS/Short Range OR Mid-DPS/Longer Range. How is this destroying a weapon system for Caldari? I think the problem is that now a choice has to be made. Now it's Cruise or Torps where before it was just Torps. Torps never saw extensive PvP use anyway, and in those situations torps will be more effective, as you've always needed tacking support to ensure effective application of such a slow weapon. In PvP they have always had a much shorter effective range than their actual range. If anything torps will now be better for small squad PvP as you'll be doing more damage overall while your buddies hold the target in place for you. What this means is that some mission runners will have to alter their tactics, it's really not going to be that difficult but you will need to consider what you're likely to encounter in the mission or fit some speed modifications or whatever. The world hasn't really ended here. It's not tough to get in range of 30km for some battleship nukage, perhaps the problem is not being able to sit on the next acceleration gate and watch the next episode of heros while you make a profit? I don't personally see the problem with having a choice coming up between torps and cruises. It seems that people are frustrated that their "best" tool for the job will not necessarily be the "best" anymore. This may be bad for them, but I don't see it as being bad (killing) for EVE. My main point was that people that used to use torps, can still use cruises to nearly comparable effect. They can be frustrated that they may have to train up another skill(s) and that there isn't as clear a best setup for what they like to do, but this does not homogenize EVE, if anything it does the opposite. Note: I have Torpedo Spec to lvl 4 and I've used torpedoes very effectively in mission running and ratting (the ease and rate at which I farm rats/ISK in 0.0 is great, but also ridiculous compared to others I rat with that use almost any other ship). I am still looking forward to the change, if it turns out I can't use torpedoes in the way I used to, Ill train cruise missiles instead. I am perfectly alright being slightly less overpowered in my PVE capabilities, it's fair, and in return maybe I can start using Ravens in PVP more effectively. "You can't reason someone out of a belief they haven't reasoned themselves into" - Prometheus
Miyamoto Uroki Katsu Corporation	Posted - 2007.11.21 14:22:00 - [120] Wish I got one cookie for every oh-so-unfair-treated whiner since announcement of this patch... People often fail to see the reasons why ccp changes things, as it seems. You now can too easily predict the fittings of a particular ship? First of all, no you cannot be sure it's THE standard fitting. And second: whining about nerf of way too strong ew mods? One could tell almost every ship fitting in the current situation. Shall I try? Med slots: sensor booster and dampeners. Done. That's for sure THE standard fitting for pvpers nowadays. So stop whining plz. Originally by: Puupuu dude... your face

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