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'Balance' is killing Eve

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Ichabod Dirange Backwater Security Systems	Posted - 2007.11.22 14:06:00 - [151] One can only hope they've learnt any from previous nerfs when they've gone too far, almost as if punishing the players for finding the flaws in their designs. Sure work over the Eos some but at least make it as useful as the Sleipnir, proposed changes doesn't say that, it says sell now and never look back. Cloners Wanted
Die Unknown Amarr New Age Solutions New Age Solutions Amalgamated	Posted - 2007.11.22 14:16:00 - [152] Originally by: Ichabod Dirange One can only hope they've learnt any from previous nerfs when they've gone too far, almost as if punishing the players for finding the flaws in their designs. Sure work over the Eos some but at least make it as useful as the Sleipnir, proposed changes doesn't say that, it says sell now and never look back. Sleipnir is Field Command Ship. Eos is Fleet Command Ship.
Ichabod Dirange Backwater Security Systems	Posted - 2007.11.22 14:21:00 - [153] So a lesser ship no matter how you dice it. Cloners Wanted
Die Unknown Amarr New Age Solutions New Age Solutions Amalgamated	Posted - 2007.11.22 14:25:00 - [154] Sleipnir is Field Command Ship. Eos is Fleet Command Ship.
Ichabod Dirange Backwater Security Systems	Posted - 2007.11.22 14:30:00 - [155] So a lesser ship no matter how you dice it. Cloners Wanted
Die Unknown Amarr New Age Solutions New Age Solutions Amalgamated	Posted - 2007.11.22 14:32:00 - [156] Sleipnir is Field Command Ship. Eos is Fleet Command Ship.
Gorefacer Caldari Resurrection	Posted - 2007.11.22 15:02:00 - [157] Originally by: Siigari Kitawa I do not like this idea of how people think that if you put two ships of the same class in a room together they should be a 100% even match. Come on. The Moros vs. the Revelation? The Navitas vs. the Bantam? The Vexor vs. the Scythe? The Megathron vs. the Raven? GIVE ME A BREAK. You guys need to understand each ship does something unique, and is what makes it stand apart. There I listed the ships pitted against each other in their respective roles, but I don't think it's fair for people to put all 4 ships of the same class in a room and rate them as "best, second best, third best, worst." That takes away from the spirit of the game in terms of making something into something useful, rather than making it into something that can be as good as this other ship. I've heard that on sisi with the changes coming up, the new Raven will melt the Megathron now at close range. Before it was reversed. If CCP's balance attempts cause the Raven to overtake the Megathron in a certain role, how is this bad for the game according to what you state you want? Was it OK when the Gallente ship was more powerful, but now not OK when the Caldari ship eclipses it in DPS? According to your logic, you should be happy that the Raven is a better damage dealer than the Megathron now, or that many drone ships will be less effective in combat than some of their counterparts, because at least all the ships aren't equal in effectiveness, right? The fact of the matter is, all ships will never be completely equal, so don't worry, what you apparently fear will never happen, the strongest ship for a role will just change. "You can't reason someone out of a belief they haven't reasoned themselves into" - Prometheus
Andrue Amarr	Posted - 2007.11.22 16:09:00 - [158] Changes keep the game interesting by challenging you to adapt. The alternative is boredom and/or everyone flying the same ships. -- (Battle hardened industrialist) [Brackley, UK] My budgie can say "ploppy bottom". You have been warned.
Sauromugue	Posted - 2007.11.22 18:39:00 - [159] Boredom? Uh, I don't know what game you're playing, but I want to have fun with what I TRAINED FOR, not have my damn ship class crippled every other month. What's the point of having goals any more?
Moghydin Confederation of Red Moon Red Moon Federation	Posted - 2007.11.22 18:44:00 - [160] Originally by: Sauromugue Boredom? Uh, I don't know what game you're playing, but I want to have fun with what I TRAINED FOR, not have my damn ship class crippled every other month. What's the point of having goals any more? That's actually the point. You trained for a FOTM and now the "I Win" button is getting nerfed. FOTM is actually a ship that ppl train for, because someone invented a creative setup that allows that ship to be significantly better than other ships of its class. Now tell me why it shouldn't be nerfed? Press alt+F4 to reduce lag

Mark Lucius Forbidden Lore	Posted - 2007.11.22 19:53:00 - [161] The uniqueness you and all the Gallente fanbois in this thread are advocating is the ease in which the Myrmidon can* outperform the other tier 2 battlecruisers. We all know this is true and if you don't believe it watch how people will scramble to find their new 'unique' ship. If you think I am wrong, you should petition CCP en masse to have the Myrmidons turret slots and drone space+bandwidth halved (making it even more unique). When this has happened and everybody is still flying Myrmidons as zealously as they do now because of its uniqueness, you will have convinced me of the error in my arguments. (*Disclaimer: I said 'can', not 'always will'.) --- Please resize image to a maximum of 400 x 120, not exceeding 24000 bytes, ty. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] - Cortes
Andrue Amarr	Posted - 2007.11.22 20:51:00 - [162] Edited by: Andrue on 22/11/2007 20:52:59 Originally by: Sauromugue Boredom? Uh, I don't know what game you're playing, but I want to have fun with what I TRAINED FOR, not have my damn ship class crippled every other month. What's the point of having goals any more? It's the same game I've been playing for over 3.5 years. Well actually it isn't and that's my point. If it was the same game I wouldn't still be playing it. If every ship you fly is getting crippled that often then it would suggest that you don't understand Eve. It suggests that you are continually trying to find the 'I win' button. Eve is not supposed to have such a thing and you'll do far better if you stop trying to chase that impossible dream. Stop putting all your eggs into one basket. Learn how to adapt. Become flexible. You will develop a far better character and achieve more in the long run by doing that. Let the other fools follow a narrow path down a dead-end while you keep your options open. -- (Battle hardened industrialist) [Brackley, UK] My budgie can say "ploppy bottom". You have been warned.
Adunh Slavy Ammatar Trade Syndicate	Posted - 2007.11.22 21:55:00 - [163] Originally by: Andrue Stop putting all your eggs into one basket. Learn how to adapt. Become flexible. You will develop a far better character and achieve more in the long run by doing that. Let the other fools follow a narrow path down a dead-end while you keep your options open. Andrue brings up a good point here. Specialization may allow a player to own a role, but that's all that player will have. It is very time consuming to be a jack of all trades, we poor sots don't do anything great, but we can do lots and lots of things well enough to get by. Think of nerfs as big asteroids that from time to time plow into the planet. The dinos that had furry stuff became birds, the little creepy things running around in holes in the ground started climbing trees, those same odd little tree climbers invented the Internet, despite Al Gore's claims to the contrary. Specialization wins some PVP, but it does not win Eve. Eve can not be won, so much as survived. -AS The Real Space Initiative (Forum Link)
Mentonak	Posted - 2007.11.22 22:19:00 - [164] Originally by: Tarminic If the Myrmidon is 3 times as popular as any other battlecruiser despite only 35% of players being Gallente (example numbers) then they figure it needs to be balanced. Um. This may be a silly question... but why? Since all players can play all craft (with apropriate skill training. why would it be a problem if 75% of BC pilots flew 1 type of ship. how does this possibly detract from the game? In any game there will allways be items / skills / spells / ships that no one uses because they are crap. This never really ruins the game... But making everything the same does kinda dumb down a bit and remove the fun.
Misses Gap Caldari The Lantern Mining Corporation	Posted - 2007.11.22 22:30:00 - [165] Op hits spot on ! Diversity is needed. If Eve Devs would balance the two different human RL genders, no one would want to have sex anymore. Gap Attention you need. Children play in the snow aloud. The cat has been podded!
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2007.11.22 22:33:00 - [166] Originally by: Mark Lucius Edited by: Mark Lucius on 22/11/2007 20:01:14 The uniqueness all the Gallente fanbois in this thread are advocating is the ease in which the Myrmidon can* outperform the other tier 2 battlecruisers. We all know this is true and if you don't believe it watch how people will scramble to find their new 'unique' ship. If you think I am wrong, you should petition CCP en masse to have the Myrmidons turret slots and drone space+bandwidth halved (making it even more unique). When this has happened and everybody is still flying Myrmidons as zealously as they do now because of its uniqueness, you will have convinced me of the error in my arguments. (*Disclaimer: I said 'can', not 'always will'.) /thread - I wish I was a three foot female doll with a watering can and heterochromatic eyes.
Ione Hunt 0utbreak	Posted - 2007.11.22 23:12:00 - [167] Well, drones have been an alternative weapon, now they've been nerfed to a sort of "add-on" which on its own won't be able to kill any clever target. If speed gets nerfed too, we'll have BLOB Online instead of EVE Online and the last best counter to blobs will die...and so will small-scale or solo combat. I can live with the drone nerf (even though I think they overdid it), but if speed gets nerfed to the point where I have to fit a tank on current nano-ships like the Vaga (shield booster??) I won't bother anymore with this game... _______________
Neesa Corrinne Black Watch Legionnaires	Posted - 2007.11.23 11:58:00 - [168] The next patch is the only patch in two years that I am NOT looking forward to being released. That says a lot about the state of the game. The whiners seem to pick a different aspect of the game every couple of months, spam the forums with "that's not fair!" threads and then CCP capitulates to them. Is there an option I can click on to NOT accept the next patch? Cause TBH, I'm not even remotely interested in it... including the new ships being released.
Qui Shon	Posted - 2007.11.23 13:18:00 - [169] Originally by: Andrue ...I've been playing for over 3.5 years....Stop putting all your eggs into one basket. See how that is a problem for a new player? A new player HAS to specialize in order to compete with older players. (Sure sure, you can bring friends too, i.e. blob warfare.) Personally, I will always go jack of all trades route, in everything I do, and therefore I'll never match same age specialized characters, nor older jack- players like yourself. I can live with that, but I well understand those who can't.
General Coochie New Justice Minuit.	Posted - 2007.11.28 21:51:00 - [170] Edited by: General Coochie on 28/11/2007 21:54:29 Wow. its like one mind I totally agree with OP. English isn't my 1st language and I'm not the best with writing down my arguments, but this thread says exactly what I wanted this thread to say Balanced combat and EvE. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- - Sig originally by Kel Solaar Please resize image to a maximum of 400 x 120, not exceeding 24000 bytes, ty. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] - Cortes

Orbital123	Posted - 2007.11.28 22:14:00 - [171] yeah and Amarr laser gunners are just pleased as punch and peachy keen /sarcasm
Guntaro	Posted - 2007.11.28 23:36:00 - [172] Edited by: Guntaro on 28/11/2007 23:38:43 People invest a lot of time and money training for certain ships and setups only to have that ship nerfed. That equals time and money wasted because now you need to train a new area. Thats the problem with constant changes to this game. Take away all the skill intensive requirements and I couldnt care less if they change the game every day.
Kurogauna	Posted - 2007.11.28 23:57:00 - [173] Edited by: Kurogauna on 29/11/2007 00:03:28 Edited by: Kurogauna on 29/11/2007 00:02:08 In modern warfare, weapons, and sometimes wehicles are higly specialized. i am a big player of advance wars, and the game is quite fine balanced (not an mmo, i agree). Ah-64 apache (helicopter) is an anti infantry - anti tank ... and only this. Useless against ships and aircraft. HH-60H seahawk (helicopter again) can fire a deadly anti ship missile, a torpedoe or put some sonars. Useless against infantry (lol swimmers?). Heavy tank, like M1 Abrahams are useful against other ground vehicles and deadly against infantry. useless against aircraft and so on. Shilka (tired of us things) is an anti aircraft tank. Useful too against infantry but cannot kill a heavy tank. Sabot shell (ammo) is a penetrative armor, usefull against heavy armored things, but useless against strutured unarmored objects like humans or civil buildings HEAT shell (ammo is a high explosive shell, very suppressive against infantry (the inverse of aboce) and useless against heavy tanks. AA missile (missile) explode out of its target in order to damage plane enough to make it crash Slam missiles (anti ship missiles) explode inside of its target in order to destroy machinery. I think there is enough examples. What i mean? Replace infantry by drones, interceptors by .. interceptors, DCA by destroyers and so on... I mean ships could have bonus against specific targets. Eve destroyers could be a true antri frig ship with a +50% scan res, +50% tracking, +50% dmg and so on against drones an frig size ships. but a huge penalty against heavier targets. Another example, bombers could have bombs that inflict huge damage against heavy target ( already exist ? =) We could have guns (not ammo, because every one will become jack of all trades) that gives bonus against a unique class of ships and not to the others. Then, in eve, we could see different races doctrines. For example, amarr prefer BS anti BS and frigs anti frigs while gallente prefer Frigs anti BS and BS anti frigs (subversives =). I know there is a huge RPG problem: how a noob could bare a gun that can one shot an elite battle ship... ... Its a rpg conception ... i have no answer to this. - Real men tank hull.
Minmatar Citizen 4521577	Posted - 2007.11.29 01:18:00 - [174] Originally by: Kurogauna I know there is a huge RPG problem: how a noob could bare a gun that can one shot an elite battle ship... ... Its a rpg conception ... i have no answer to this. Naw. The problem is that most of the people are using tanks. So when the apache comes they whine about not being able to hit it. And, since your army is actually paid by those 95% tanks, unless you somehow get rid of those apaches you can say bye to your army. Not looking forward this patch really. Nothing interesting.
Ruciza Minmatar	Posted - 2007.11.29 12:30:00 - [175] Originally by: Augeas The OP does not desire or recognise diversity. The latter probably.
AntonioBanderas Empirius Enigmus Navy	Posted - 2007.11.29 14:22:00 - [176] Originally by: Alkeena ...blah-blah-blah... ...No longer do you really have to question what setup a particular ship may be using... ...blah-blah-blah... Oh yes... can you gess how was 97,5% dominixes fitted before the NOS nerf? Or what was the percentage of Myrms witout t2 heavys (providing that pilot had the skills...)? I won't even go into the nberness of eos. Oh, yes. You're Gallente. Now i understant your post.
Matrixcvd Rionnag Alba Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.11.29 15:19:00 - [177] Originally by: Andrue If every ship you fly is getting crippled that often then it would suggest that you don't understand Eve. It suggests that you are continually trying to find the 'I win' button. Eve is not supposed to have such a thing and you'll do far better if you stop trying to chase that impossible dream. A large part of this game is a space combat "simulator" This isn't tic tack toe or some mindless game of checkers. This shouldn't be about fighting fair, because if you are, you are doing something wrong. This is about exploiting the weaknesses in your opponent by any means necessary. Granted, with a game complex as this, tweeks to the game play are necessary but this nonsense of balancing ship types so that statistically 1 BC is used accordingly as others is nonsense and utter garbage. And its morons that think just because they fly a BC, means they can go after and kill any other BC, or an AF, with crap fittings, crap logic, and crap execution. The game has grown to the point where no one can concieve of every ship fit type and too many times, people just don't think about what they are doing and call a particular ship the "I win" button. Outside of the cyno DD which was flat out stupid, no ship has truley been the IWIN. Even nanophoons. For every one of these ships, i can find an equivalent counter which is less expensive and but still effective, maybe not a single ship but no more than 3. Whining about dying to superior might, EPIC FAIL!
James Lyrus Lyrus Associates Enuma Elish.	Posted - 2007.11.29 21:28:00 - [178] Originally by: MasterEnt Agreed This is why weapons and modules has CPU/MW requirements. If you want to fit a "L" weapon on a meduim ship.. should should be able to.. just knowing that your resources will be limited. Too Much Yes. Bit like having a bandwidth limitation really. I mean, you can't fit a rack of cruise launchers on a drake, but you could probably shoehorn a couple on. -- Crane needs more grid 249km locking? GMP and TNP
Sauromugue	Posted - 2007.11.29 21:34:00 - [179] Edited by: Sauromugue on 29/11/2007 21:36:50 Originally by: Andrue Edited by: Andrue on 22/11/2007 20:52:59 Originally by: Sauromugue Boredom? Uh, I don't know what game you're playing, but I want to have fun with what I TRAINED FOR, not have my damn ship class crippled every other month. What's the point of having goals any more? It's the same game I've been playing for over 3.5 years. Well actually it isn't and that's my point. If it was the same game I wouldn't still be playing it. If every ship you fly is getting crippled that often then it would suggest that you don't understand Eve. It suggests that you are continually trying to find the 'I win' button. Eve is not supposed to have such a thing and you'll do far better if you stop trying to chase that impossible dream. Stop putting all your eggs into one basket. Learn how to adapt. Become flexible. You will develop a far better character and achieve more in the long run by doing that. Let the other fools follow a narrow path down a dead-end while you keep your options open. Yeah, Heretic is totally an "I win" button. What with ANYTHING cruiser class and above being able to kill me easily if I try to engage on my own, Interceptors outrunning me no matter what, and being able to kill only T1 frigates reliably, totally overpowered. Get real, you're obviously not playing the same game I am. You know what "adapting" means in this case? Getting polycarbs/snakes just so I can go the same speed I used to. Oh, what's that? Now it's FOTM? Damn, I guess I can't adapt, right?
Arktiger Gallente MacroIntel United Corporations Against Macros	Posted - 2007.11.30 03:20:00 - [180] Originally by: Jatonix You want to know what is actually killing EVE? People who whine and complain about EVERYTHING instead of adapting like you. There isn't much to adapt too when everything becomes almost the same.



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