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Alkeena
Gallente Unitas Nusquam Est FOUNDATI0N
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Posted - 2007.10.26 19:32:00 -
[1]
Consistently I hear the complaint that cruisers should not be able to fit 'L sized weapons' -- Heavy Drones. Similar arguments have come about regarding the ishkur and medium drones, resulting in a pending bandwidth nerf to them.
Those that hold this position are ruining what makes eve unique: flexibility and the true sandbox nature of Eve. I've been part of EVE for two and a half years, joining just before Exodus and the introduction of capitals. Essentially all that I've witnessed since then has been the gradual homogenization of Eve. No longer do you really have to question what setup a particular ship may be using, at most there are two, in rare cases three feasible fits for any given ship. More poignantly, there is growing consistency between the races and ship profiles at large.
Take the caldari for instance with the coming torp nerf/buff: They used to have a high power weapons system that could strike at long range--it just took some time. In a few weeks they'll be reduced down to just another standard short range platform. Torps are being stripped of their uniqueness and turned into just another short-range system. Yes I recognize there are differences still, such as the fact that a Bthron will do the same damage but have to close to 5km and deal with concurrent cap and tracking issues to pull it off instead of just sitting and spamming at 30km . Still the fact remains that a major distinguishing feauture between the weapons systems has been lost...
Likewise, drones used to be a different type of weapons system. Drones were unique in their implementation and have been for 4 years. You fit what you could and what was appropriate to the situation, yes you could carry heavies and do a litle more damage, but you'd run into issues against faster targets and run the risk of your drones being popped without you having replacements in the bay...now they are rapidly on the path to being pidgeonholed. No longer will drone ships be seen as versatile ships--their drone loadouts will be largely pre-defined and to make up the DPS shortfall they'll have no choice but to fit standard loadouts--at which point they may as well be flying a standard gun ship. Drones have never been a standard weapons system--they've always been in a different category; one where they could be reasonably mixed and matched but you ran the risk of loosing them. Now they're loosing one of the traits that made them unique, they're slowly being homogenized like everything else.
The push is everywhere, the Eos is being nerfed to be exactly like the other fleet commands (worse, actually, it's tank + links is terrible in comparison). There are constant cries for the nerfing of nano ships, despite numerous effective counters--eventually I'm sure they'll be nerfed to a point that those pilots will have no choice but to start fitting standard tanks instead. I dont even fly them, in fact my favored setups--blaster boats--are utterly impotent against them, but loosing that uniqueness I feel would be a massive blow to what makes eve special. As a further example, given the current rate of nerfage, (and yes this is hyperbole) I fully expect that optimal PvP fits will eventually favor cap rechargers over EW , which removes a significant portion of tactical piloting.
I dont want all the ships to be the same, or hell, even perfectly balanced along racial lines, you can always crosstrain and as long as there is sufficient distinction in roles people will continue to fly 'sub-optimal' ships because they have unique attributes that makes them suitable to particular situations. Instead, Eve is slowly becoming Warcraft II in space--same ships, different skins, maybe not this patch, but we're certainly on the path there.
I want my ship fitting decisions to matter, I want to HAVE ship fitting decisions. I want my piloting ability to matter. At this rate Eve will just turn into F1-F8 online, and that depresses me.
CCP, start setting your ships apart, not balancing them through homogenization.
~Alkeena
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Jita Alt
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Posted - 2007.10.26 19:36:00 -
[2]
Didn't read it, you're wrong though __________________________________ Calling you an idiot on a forum nearby |
Alkeena
Gallente Unitas Nusquam Est FOUNDATI0N
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Posted - 2007.10.26 19:38:00 -
[3]
Originally by: Jita Alt Didn't read it
You fail at any form of sensible discourse. If you're not even going to read it you have no standing for argument.
~Alkeena
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Nexus Kinnon
Synthetic Frontiers
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Posted - 2007.10.26 19:39:00 -
[4]
I agree completely.
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krrukruukruuujkh
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Posted - 2007.10.26 19:40:00 -
[5]
ya bandwidth is dumb m3 already restricts what can be fit where this is a dumber idea than the carrier drone control nerf
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Jita Alt
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Posted - 2007.10.26 19:40:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Alkeena
Originally by: Jita Alt Didn't read it
You fail at any form of sensible discourse. If you're not even going to read it you have no standing for argument.
~Alkeena
Sure i do, you're whining about the proposed changes and i can't be arsed reading yet another bloody thread about it So, you're wrong and need to shut up, NEXT! __________________________________ Calling you an idiot on a forum nearby |
Tarminic
Forsaken Resistance
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Posted - 2007.10.26 19:41:00 -
[7]
There's nothing killing EVE - it's been growing consistently for several years now. People are whining, people have whined, and people will continue to whine. If CCP decides to nerf something it will be due to the massive amount of data they have on how various ships or modules are purchased/lost/used primarily and input from the community secondarily.
If the Myrmidon is 3 times as popular as any other battlecruiser despite only 35% of players being Gallente (example numbers) then they figure it needs to be balanced. Of course this won't be popular because unbalanced ships are popular for obvious reasons - they kick ass.
EVE will survive the carrier nerf, will survive drone bandwidth, and will survive any future nerfs unless they're truly short-sighted and idiotic, which I don't think will ever happen. ---------------- Tarminic - 29 million SP in Forum Warfare Wrangler on Whining |
Masukito Mako
Echelon Academy
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Posted - 2007.10.26 19:41:00 -
[8]
Edited by: Masukito Mako on 26/10/2007 19:42:02 /signed (the OP)
vehemently.
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Jatonix
Target Practice Inc. Pure.
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Posted - 2007.10.26 19:42:00 -
[9]
I fail to see how the drone changes make fitting decisions useless. You will still have to make drone decisions, as well as other fitting decisions.
You want to know what is actually killing EVE? People who whine and complain about EVERYTHING instead of adapting like you.
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Jita Alt
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Posted - 2007.10.26 19:42:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Tarminic There's nothing killing EVE - it's been growing consistently for several years now. People are whining, people have whined, and people will continue to whine. If CCP decides to nerf something it will be due to the massive amount of data they have on how various ships or modules are purchased/lost/used primarily and input from the community secondarily.
If the Myrmidon is 3 times as popular as any other battlecruiser despite only 35% of players being Gallente (example numbers) then they figure it needs to be balanced. Of course this won't be popular because unbalanced ships are popular for obvious reasons - they kick ass.
EVE will survive the carrier nerf, will survive drone bandwidth, and will survive any future nerfs unless they're truly short-sighted and idiotic, which I don't think will ever happen.
you = jesus __________________________________ Calling you an idiot on a forum nearby |
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Jita Alt
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Posted - 2007.10.26 19:42:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Jatonix I fail to see how the drone changes make fitting decisions useless. You will still have to make drone decisions, as well as other fitting decisions.
You want to know what is actually killing EVE? People who whine and complain about EVERYTHING instead of adapting like you.
you = also jesus __________________________________ Calling you an idiot on a forum nearby |
Moon Kitten
GoonFleet
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Posted - 2007.10.26 19:43:00 -
[12]
I disagree with the entire premise of your argument.
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Kolwrath
Amarr
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Posted - 2007.10.26 19:44:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Tarminic There's nothing killing EVE - it's been growing consistently for several years now. People are whining, people have whined, and people will continue to whine. If CCP decides to nerf something it will be due to the massive amount of data they have on how various ships or modules are purchased/lost/used primarily and input from the community secondarily.
If the Myrmidon is 3 times as popular as any other battlecruiser despite only 35% of players being Gallente (example numbers) then they figure it needs to be balanced. Of course this won't be popular because unbalanced ships are popular for obvious reasons - they kick ass.
EVE will survive the carrier nerf, will survive drone bandwidth, and will survive any future nerfs unless they're truly short-sighted and idiotic, which I don't think will ever happen.
Amen brotha.
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Alkeena
Gallente Unitas Nusquam Est FOUNDATI0N
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Posted - 2007.10.26 19:54:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Jatonix I fail to see how the drone changes make fitting decisions useless. You will still have to make drone decisions, as well as other fitting decisions.
You want to know what is actually killing EVE? People who whine and complain about EVERYTHING instead of adapting like you.
Although technically what you wrote implies that I DO in fact adapt, I'm going to assume, due to context, that you actually meant the opposite, and respond to that.
I am adapting. I used to be an avid drone pilot, I started shifting to blaster kits as soon as it was hinted at that drones may be altered in some way. Blaster ships aren't being nerfed at all, in fact I'm getting a pretty decent boost with the introduction of the Kronos. Ad hominem attacks accomplish nothing as you've done little to refute my argument. I suppose this is fair given that it was more a statement of opinion than anything else, but still, attacking me doesnt accomplish much.
What I had intended to say, in not so many words, is that Eve seems to be loosing it's particular flavor and uniqueness. Yes there are still decisions to be made, yes pilot skill still factors in, but I believe it is this holds true to a much lesser extent than it has in the past. This, in turn, makes the game less appealing to me. Perhaps that is sound financial accumen. I loathe WoW, for instance, but it's highly successful and enjoyed by many.
Eve, as a game, seems to be changing. Slowly but perceptably, our sandbox is shrinking, and it bothers me. All of the above was merely the expression of that.
~Alkeena
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Alkeena
Gallente Unitas Nusquam Est FOUNDATI0N
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Posted - 2007.10.26 20:06:00 -
[15]
Edited by: Alkeena on 26/10/2007 20:11:06
Originally by: Tarminic There's nothing killing EVE - it's been growing consistently for several years now. People are whining, people have whined, and people will continue to whine. If CCP decides to nerf something it will be due to the massive amount of data they have on how various ships or modules are purchased/lost/used primarily and input from the community secondarily.
If the Myrmidon is 3 times as popular as any other battlecruiser despite only 35% of players being Gallente (example numbers) then they figure it needs to be balanced. Of course this won't be popular because unbalanced ships are popular for obvious reasons - they kick ass.
EVE will survive the carrier nerf, will survive drone bandwidth, and will survive any future nerfs unless they're truly short-sighted and idiotic, which I don't think will ever happen.
I appreciate the candor of your response. The position I would take with regards to that is that it doesnt matter if the myrm is overpower (to an extent), so long as other ships are differentiated enough to make them worthy of flying on their own merits. The trouble we've run into, in my opinion, is the obsession with DPS. It's all that a lot of people see and so when a ship class is made essentially homogenous (I'll grant a happy exception to the tanking ability of the drake) the slightest difference causes people to rush to ONE ship, such as the myrm due to it's elevated DPS. If the other BCs had a role that was sufficiently differentiated they'd be flown more as a result. Instead, because they are percieved as being so similar it becomes 'easy' to pick out the 'best' one and everyone flocks to it.
Note my use of the word percieved above. There's another issue at work here, and that's that a lot of players are not terribly astute. Vagacanes = awesome. Also, pop the damn drones and your problem is solved.
Finally, when I say that something is killing Eve, I mean in the sense that REALLY sets it apart. Let's face it, the more mass market appeal you have the better off you are financially, that doesnt necessarilly mean it is a better game, just that it can attract more rabid mouth breathers. I think a lot of people that respect the complexity and depth of Eve hold games such as WoW in disdain, yet it is many times more successful.
It is not the true death of Eve, it is the spiritual death of Eve.
~Alkeena
Edit: I predicated the discussion of the myrm with "within reason." I'm not against all nerfs, simply homogenizing ones. The missile nerf that came with exodus I feel was necessary, as it essentialy destroyed the role of smaller ships. By NOT nerfing missiles they would have continued to encourage everyone to fly big ships and big ships alone; homogenization = bad. The myrm is certainly on the cusp of that, as it may have started to crowd out BS pilots, however "bringing it in line" with the other BCs is also a poor decision, or at least in the form it was implemented, for reasons already expressed.
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Malcanis
High4Life SMASH Alliance
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Posted - 2007.10.26 20:07:00 -
[16]
Excellent post, OP.
CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that. |
Igualmentedos
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Posted - 2007.10.26 20:08:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Alkeena
Originally by: Tarminic There's nothing killing EVE - it's been growing consistently for several years now. People are whining, people have whined, and people will continue to whine. If CCP decides to nerf something it will be due to the massive amount of data they have on how various ships or modules are purchased/lost/used primarily and input from the community secondarily.
If the Myrmidon is 3 times as popular as any other battlecruiser despite only 35% of players being Gallente (example numbers) then they figure it needs to be balanced. Of course this won't be popular because unbalanced ships are popular for obvious reasons - they kick ass.
EVE will survive the carrier nerf, will survive drone bandwidth, and will survive any future nerfs unless they're truly short-sighted and idiotic, which I don't think will ever happen.
I appreciate the candor of your response. The position I would take with regards to that is that it doesnt matter if the myrm is overpower (to an extent), so long as other ships are differentiated enough to make them worthy of flying on their own merits. The trouble we've run into, in my opinion, is the obsession with DPS. It's all that a lot of people see and so when a ship class is made essentially homogenous (I'll grant a happy exception to the tanking ability of the drake) the slightest difference causes people to rush to ONE ship, such as the myrm due to it's elevated DPS. If the other BCs had a role that was sufficiently differentiated they'd be flown more as a result. Instead, because they are percieved as being so similar it becomes 'easy' to pick out the 'best' one and everyone flocks to it.
Note my use of the word percieved above. There's another issue at work here, and that's that a lot of players are note terribly astute. Vagacanes = awesome. Also, pop the damn drones and your problem is solved.
Finally, when I say that something is killing Eve, I mean in the sense that REALLY sets it apart. Let's face it, the more mass market appeal you have the better off you are financially, that doesnt necessarilly mean it is a better game, just that it can attract more rabid mouth breathers. I think a lot of people that respect the complexity and depth of Eve hold games such as WoW in disdain, yet it is many times more successful.
It is not the true death of eve, it is the spiritual death of eve.
~Alkeena
Holy balls, stop complaining about what you think EVE should be. Just accept that change is inevitable.
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Sorum Daemoth
Insidious Existence Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
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Posted - 2007.10.26 20:08:00 -
[18]
/signed
also jita alts a noob, i caught him in the restroom with polaris pulling a george michael.
You just got WTF EXIT ganked! |
Laboratus
Gallente BGG League of Abnormal Gentlemen
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Posted - 2007.10.26 20:10:00 -
[19]
The op is 100% correct. ___ P.S. Post with your main. Mind control and tin hats |
MasterEnt
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Posted - 2007.10.26 20:11:00 -
[20]
Agreed
This is why weapons and modules has CPU/MW requirements. If you want to fit a "L" weapon on a meduim ship.. should should be able to.. just knowing that your resources will be limited.
Too Much
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Tarminic
Forsaken Resistance
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Posted - 2007.10.26 20:12:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Alkeena I appreciate the candor of your response. The position I would take with regards to that is that it doesnt matter if the myrm is overpower (to an extent), so long as other ships are differentiated enough to make them worthy of flying on their own merits. The trouble we've run into, in my opinion, is the obsession with DPS. It's all that a lot of people see and so when a ship class is made essentially homogenous (I'll grant a happy exception to the tanking ability of the drake) the slightest difference causes people to rush to ONE ship, such as the myrm due to it's elevated DPS. If the other BCs had a role that was sufficiently differentiated they'd be flown more as a result. Instead, because they are percieved as being so similar it becomes 'easy' to pick out the 'best' one and everyone flocks to it.
I can agree with that actually - one of the things that I like about EVE is that it's not a game that can be easily min-maxed (I.E. someone simply creating 'optimal' setup with the highest posssible DPS) and that several real-time factors make doing this impossible. Think that we need more diversity in ship setups (though T2 battleships do interesting things in this regard).
Quote: Note my use of the word percieved above. There's another issue at work here, and that's that a lot of players are not terribly astute. Vagacanes = awesome. Also, pop the damn drones and your problem is solved.
Finally, when I say that something is killing Eve, I mean in the sense that REALLY sets it apart. Let's face it, the more mass market appeal you have the better off you are financially, that doesnt necessarilly mean it is a better game, just that it can attract more rabid mouth breathers. I think a lot of people that respect the complexity and depth of Eve hold games such as WoW in disdain, yet it is many times more successful.
It is not the true death of eve, it is the spiritual death of eve.
~Alkeena
Indeed - it's up to CCP to strike the right balance between uniqueness and mass-appeal, and we all have different positions along that line.
I do think that we need to add something more to combat, and I think that CCP will be doing that with T3 weapons, attribute changing effects (sensor boosters, dampeners, etc), and heat will help this. ---------------- Tarminic - 29 million SP in Forum Warfare Wrangler on Whining |
Jatonix
Target Practice Inc. Pure.
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Posted - 2007.10.26 20:12:00 -
[22]
Edited by: Jatonix on 26/10/2007 20:13:11
Originally by: Alkeena
Originally by: Jatonix I fail to see how the drone changes make fitting decisions useless. You will still have to make drone decisions, as well as other fitting decisions.
You want to know what is actually killing EVE? People who whine and complain about EVERYTHING instead of adapting like you.
Although technically what you wrote implies that I DO in fact adapt, I'm going to assume, due to context, that you actually meant the opposite, and respond to that.
I am adapting. I used to be an avid drone pilot, I started shifting to blaster kits as soon as it was hinted at that drones may be altered in some way. Blaster ships aren't being nerfed at all, in fact I'm getting a pretty decent boost with the introduction of the Kronos. Ad hominem attacks accomplish nothing as you've done little to refute my argument. I suppose this is fair given that it was more a statement of opinion than anything else, but still, attacking me doesnt accomplish much.
What I had intended to say, in not so many words, is that Eve seems to be loosing it's particular flavor and uniqueness. Yes there are still decisions to be made, yes pilot skill still factors in, but I believe it is this holds true to a much lesser extent than it has in the past. This, in turn, makes the game less appealing to me. Perhaps that is sound financial accumen. I loathe WoW, for instance, but it's highly successful and enjoyed by many.
Eve, as a game, seems to be changing. Slowly but perceptably, our sandbox is shrinking, and it bothers me. All of the above was merely the expression of that.
~Alkeena
I see where you're coming from, but it seems like bandwidth will actually add more variety in a way. Now, you can store much more different types of drones with the larger drone bays, making your drone decisions carry into space, rather than in station. Let's take, for example, a ship with 50 m3 of drone space. That's 5 medium scouts. Once in combat, you can only launch those, limiting decisions. With the new changes, you will be able to store more varieties of drones to adapt to more situations.
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shinsushi
Amarr Imperial Academy
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Posted - 2007.10.26 20:13:00 -
[23]
translation, "My boats can't do everything anymore!!!"
Last I checked there where like 100 different ships in eve, alot with different roles. Wanna do something well, get in a specialized ship for it. AMARR - Taking it up the butt since 2005
Fixing Laser Boats 101 |
Major Death
Caldari Space Salvage Incorperated
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Posted - 2007.10.26 20:21:00 -
[24]
Shame, someone broken the OP's I WIN button.
My original sig was 'Enjoy lag free play in a dynamic space MMORPG'. It was removed for lack of EVE content! ;) |
Gnulpie
Minmatar Miner Tech
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Posted - 2007.10.26 20:24:00 -
[25]
I agree with the op here.
The changes are taking away more and more freedom from Eve. The devs really need to be MUCH more carefully what they want to change and what not.
They must not forget that the SANDBOX CONCEPT is what made Eve so unique and strong. They shouldn't limit it to 3 or 4 specialization careers. That takes away all the freedom and it will only force you to skill up that career.
Everything will become predictable and boring ... and there will be a 'best fit' if they continue like this. And then it will be only dull nerf - unnerf game of the devs.
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Wilfuc Fatburdz
The Capitals' Club Te-Ka
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Posted - 2007.10.26 20:36:00 -
[26]
The only thing killimg EVE atm the moment is Devs making devblogs out of a brainfart. Which then appears to the sweaty mass to devalue immense time investments in a particular skill branch so much as to make them apparently worthless at a stroke.
No amount of ISK can buy the most valuable personal commodity in EVE, and that commodity is time. Such power, to regard it so carelessly.
Kardim: If i buy a Ferrari it damn well better be a Ferrari a year later not a Civic. |
ChimeraRouge
Caldari Eve University Ivy League
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Posted - 2007.10.26 20:42:00 -
[27]
Sorry you are 100% WRONG.
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krrukruukruuujkh
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Posted - 2007.10.26 20:51:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Gnulpie I agree with the op here.
The changes are taking away more and more freedom from Eve. The devs really need to be MUCH more carefully what they want to change and what not.
They must not forget that the SANDBOX CONCEPT is what made Eve so unique and strong. They shouldn't limit it to 3 or 4 specialization careers. That takes away all the freedom and it will only force you to skill up that career.
Everything will become predictable and boring ... and there will be a 'best fit' if they continue like this. And then it will be only dull nerf - unnerf game of the devs.
ah ok so you think that its cool for a carrier to be able to do everything without changing fit
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cal nereus
Bounty Hunter - Dark Legion Brutally Clever Empire
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Posted - 2007.10.26 20:52:00 -
[29]
It doesn't matter if your ship is "good" or not. Just fly whatever looks cool, has a nice name, or embodies the style of play you prefer. Don't fly something just because it is powerful. That leads to a lot of grief when it gets nerfed. Keyword: when. ---
Join BH-DL |
Mekk Azal
November Night Industries
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Posted - 2007.10.26 20:54:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Alkeena
Originally by: Jita Alt Didn't read it
You fail at any form of sensible discourse. If you're not even going to read it you have no standing for argument.
~Alkeena
I didnt read it either. But please skip the fancy words and just tell me to STFU like normal space-geeks.
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