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Thoran Karlien N.U.R.S.E. New EVE Rising	Posted - 2007.10.26 20:19:00 - [1] Okay, this is going to be something new... namely not a whine, but I really would like to know, why everyone is whining about the Paladin? Sure I didn't compare it too much to the other Marauders, but I kinda liked what I saw. It probably won't do the damage of current T1 Amarr BS but it should be pretty cap stable. Better tank, too. Can't fly one yet, so I can't verify it, but the better tank and cap stability should free a few slots for mods to do a bit more damage. More than enough PG and CPU. What did I miss?
Arvald Caldari House of Tempers	Posted - 2007.10.26 20:21:00 - [2] paladins, enforcing peace and justice...and doing it violently --------------------------- Im in your forums derailing your threads
Zolian	Posted - 2007.10.26 20:22:00 - [3] Because the Kronos is so much better, and the other two marauders are better as well for not being built on an underpowered hull.
Grimpak Gallente Trinity Nova KIA Alliance	Posted - 2007.10.26 21:42:00 - [4] Originally by: Thoran Karlien Okay, this is going to be something new... namely not a whine, but I really would like to know, why everyone is whining about the Paladin? Sure I didn't compare it too much to the other Marauders, but I kinda liked what I saw. It probably won't do the damage of current T1 Amarr BS but it should be pretty cap stable. Better tank, too. Can't fly one yet, so I can't verify it, but the better tank and cap stability should free a few slots for mods to do a bit more damage. More than enough PG and CPU. What did I miss? cuz, while the other 3 marauders do better damage than their T1 counterparts, the paladin is basically an apoc with better armor only, since it does the same damage as the apoc, and the guns eat the same ammount of cap aswell. --- planetary interaction idea!
Shardrael Caldari AWE Corporation Intrepid Crossing	Posted - 2007.10.26 23:57:00 - [5] Originally by: Grimpak Originally by: Thoran Karlien Okay, this is going to be something new... namely not a whine, but I really would like to know, why everyone is whining about the Paladin? Sure I didn't compare it too much to the other Marauders, but I kinda liked what I saw. It probably won't do the damage of current T1 Amarr BS but it should be pretty cap stable. Better tank, too. Can't fly one yet, so I can't verify it, but the better tank and cap stability should free a few slots for mods to do a bit more damage. More than enough PG and CPU. What did I miss? why does everyone always ignore the tractor beam bonus and the cargohold bonus. it may not tank much better (even though it does with the better cap and increased resistance) but this ship just plain old runs missions and ratting better, it has built in support ships combined into one. fit the highs with 4 tach 2's two salvagers and one tractor beam and you have a damn convenient mission runner. webber bonus aint great but its not useless either, fit a domination web in their and you can ensure some pretty damn high hits with tachs on any sized ship. cuz, while the other 3 marauders do better damage than their T1 counterparts, the paladin is basically an apoc with better armor only, since it does the same damage as the apoc, and the guns eat the same ammount of cap aswell.
Fuazzole	Posted - 2007.10.27 00:21:00 - [6] Turtle tanking pala's win the war
Imperator Jora'h	Posted - 2007.10.27 00:57:00 - [7] Originally by: Shardrael why does everyone always ignore the tractor beam bonus and the cargohold bonus. it may not tank much better (even though it does with the better cap and increased resistance) but this ship just plain old runs missions and ratting better, it has built in support ships combined into one. Do you want to pay 600 million ISK for an Apoc with a tractor beam bonus?
NoNah Unseen University	Posted - 2007.10.27 01:03:00 - [8] Originally by: Imperator Jora'h Originally by: Shardrael why does everyone always ignore the tractor beam bonus and the cargohold bonus. it may not tank much better (even though it does with the better cap and increased resistance) but this ship just plain old runs missions and ratting better, it has built in support ships combined into one. Do you want to pay 600 million ISK for an Apoc with a tractor beam bonus? If that implies you will send Marauders for 600 mil a pop, I will keep you out of stock from day one and forward. Postcount: 856816 [02:40:22] <elmickers> if you're caldari in a fleet fight, bring a corp
Imperator Jora'h	Posted - 2007.10.27 01:14:00 - [9] Originally by: NoNah Originally by: Imperator Jora'h Originally by: Shardrael why does everyone always ignore the tractor beam bonus and the cargohold bonus. it may not tank much better (even though it does with the better cap and increased resistance) but this ship just plain old runs missions and ratting better, it has built in support ships combined into one. Do you want to pay 600 million ISK for an Apoc with a tractor beam bonus? If that implies you will send Marauders for 600 mil a pop, I will keep you out of stock from day one and forward. Yeah...I haven't bothered to look at the mat list and calculate the cost. I am only going on 600-700 mil I have seen written. Point still stands though. Maybe I would buy an Apoc with a tractor beam bonus at Apoc prices to retire my loot monkey destroyer...maybe.
Incantare Caldari Kernel of War Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2007.10.27 01:30:00 - [10] Why? No really, there isn't a reason to with the Paladin in its current state. In fact if you have any self respect you won't ever buy that abomination the devs gave to Amarr when it's outclassed pretty much 100% by every other marauder. Especially the Kronos.
Myra2007	Posted - 2007.10.27 01:32:00 - [11] Edited by: Myra2007 on 27/10/2007 01:34:42 Currently there is no indication that paladin will be more cap stable. The point is you lose the laser cap usage bonus which effectively gives your 4 turrets the same cap use as 8 turrets on the apoc. It has a cap bonus also but apoc has it too. Also from the Sisi stats paladin will have a lower base cap than apoc. Well, now you can do the math yourself... Better tank? Yes, but we got a repair bonus which isnt the correct racial bonus (resistance). Also all Marauders tank better than the t1 versions - so this is nothing special. Indeed i'd expect it for estimated prices between 500 and 1 billion isk. Also why do you need a better tank when you can already tank any lvl4 in your apoc? A dmg bonus on the other hand would help to grind through missions faster which frankly is all what matters to a seasoned mission runner. An abaddon will do every lvl4 mission with the added bonus of doing it faster and costing a fraction of the paladin. Furthermore the web bonus while geared towards blaster boats does nothing for pulses. Web range is not where you want to be. This is about pvp ofc. In missions its useless for all marauders because who the hell uses his guns to kill frigs that come that close? You have drones for a reason. These are only a few points. A lot of things can only be seen if you make a detailed comparison to the other ships. Just have a look how much pg/cpu you have left after fitting a paladin and then go and fit a respective Kronos. Look how much pg/cpu Kronos has left and you will be surprised. Then look at the apoc in combat(pvp) where many people already consider it sub-par. There are not many reasons not to prefer either geddon or abaddon regardless for what role you fit out. Tuxford said it might get a role twist, but the paladin is just the very same apoc with a little shinyness. It pretty much looks like they forgot about it/don 't have ideas/decided not to do it. Of course no one sees a reason to communicate to us which of the 3 it would be. The fact that the Paladin looks like they didn't think 1minute about the apoc and its problems or the general issues that many pilots feel with amarr is just a hard disappointment for many. Its like an unofficial dev blog stating that our hopes are futile. When the khanid changes came up the dev blog mentioned that someday we might see a khanid bs with torp bonus. The apoc would have been the logical candidate. Now Paladin and Redeemer are both not khanid. If they ever introduce another t2 bs it will probably be abaddon based and as such most likely not a khanid/torp boat. So it may be safe to say that idea is out of the window too. All in all there is not much to look forward in rev3 if you want to fly laserboats. If you happen to like the apoc though, well then paladin may be the way to go for you. It certainly will perform a little bit better than apoc for general usage. To me it wouldn't be worth tons and tons of money though. Now that was a long post, i hope it gives you a general idea of the most complaints concerning this ship.
MOCC3 Labteck Corporation LTD. Libertas Fidelitas	Posted - 2007.10.27 01:36:00 - [12] I like it as is. sry Originally by: CCP WranglerWell, we do work as a team at CCP, but I don't think any accountants are involved. We do listen to the community though, more than we show through forum posts, but a wel
Reem Fairchild Minmatar Republic University	Posted - 2007.10.27 01:39:00 - [13] The only really significant difference I can see between the different ships is that the Kronos has twice the drone bay/bandwith of the other ships.
Nomakai Delateriel Amarr Delictum 23216	Posted - 2007.10.27 01:45:00 - [14] Originally by: Reem Fairchild The only really significant difference I can see between the different ships is that the Kronos has twice the drone bay/bandwith of the other ships. Kronos has (in comparison to the Paladin): twice the damage More drones Half the cap use (less than that really) Faster More agile Gets a better use out of its webber bonus The paladin has: Umm. slightly more cap (which will be emptied quicker) Lasers? Slightly more armor ______________________________________________ -You can never earn my respect, only lose it. It's given freely, and only grudgingly retracted when necessary.
Incantare Caldari Kernel of War Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2007.10.27 01:45:00 - [15] Originally by: Reem Fairchild The only really significant difference I can see between the different ships is that the Kronos has twice the drone bay/bandwith of the other ships. It also gets one more effective turret and keeps its damage bonus.
Myra2007	Posted - 2007.10.27 01:47:00 - [16] Originally by: Reem Fairchild The only really significant difference I can see between the different ships is that the Kronos has twice the drone bay/bandwith of the other ships. Well, you should compare apoc and megathron first. After that you might see how the problem translates to marauders. Also compare apoc versus geddon and abaddon to get the full picture. If after that you think apoc is good, well then you'll probably have the marauder you are looking for in the paladin. Basically if t1 version sucks, so does t2. There are only very few exceptions of this rule(i.e. absolution and the new sacrilege/damnation). Thus redeemer is good just like the geddon. And paladin sucks just like the apoc.
Reem Fairchild Minmatar Republic University	Posted - 2007.10.27 01:53:00 - [17] Originally by: Incantare Originally by: Reem Fairchild The only really significant difference I can see between the different ships is that the Kronos has twice the drone bay/bandwith of the other ships. It also gets one more effective turret and keeps its damage bonus. I don't see what you mean by "one more effective turret" unless you mean the damage bonus (and if so, why mention them separately?). Lasers don't usually get ship damage bonuses (Abaddon is a notable exception) because they inherently already do a lot more damage than anything else turret wise except when it comes to pulse lasers versus blasters. And that's balanced by the fact that they have many times the range that blasters have.
Incantare Caldari Kernel of War Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2007.10.27 01:56:00 - [18] No, I mean the mega gets seven turrets and the apoc 8. The t2 versions both get 100% on 4 turrets for 8 effective turrets. In essence, the Kronos gains one turret over its t1 counterpart, the Paladin does not.
Red Harvest	Posted - 2007.10.27 02:00:00 - [19] When i look at the paladin i only see a bit better tank than the apoc, same damage and a horrible weakness to ECM. Wasted effort on the apoc to make a decent t2 ship out of it.
Reem Fairchild Minmatar Republic University	Posted - 2007.10.27 02:00:00 - [20] Originally by: Incantare No, I mean the mega gets seven turrets and the apoc 8. The t2 versions both get 100% on 4 turrets for 8 effective turrets. In essence, the Kronos gains one turret over its t1 counterpart, the Paladin does not. Even forgetting for a second that the Megathron has launcher slots, how does that translate into an imbalance between the Kronos and the Paladin themelves?
Imperator Jora'h	Posted - 2007.10.27 02:02:00 - [21] Originally by: Reem Fairchild The only really significant difference I can see between the different ships is that the Kronos has twice the drone bay/bandwith of the other ships. And they all have damage bonuses...EXCEPT the Paladin.
Reem Fairchild Minmatar Republic University	Posted - 2007.10.27 02:07:00 - [22] Originally by: Red Harvest When i look at the paladin i only see a bit better tank than the apoc, same damage and a horrible weakness to ECM. Wasted effort on the apoc to make a decent t2 ship out of it. Higher resists and 7.5%/level of Marauder skill bonus to armor rep is a little more than a "bit" better tank. Same damage, yes, but that's the case with all the Marauders compared to their t1 counterparts. What you get instead is 4 high slots free for other modules. ECM is not that huge a deal when you consider that they are (as lame as that may be) meant mainly for missioning. Hence the huge cargo, the 4 free high slots, and the tractor beam bonus.
Imperator Jora'h	Posted - 2007.10.27 02:07:00 - [23] Originally by: Reem Fairchild Originally by: Incantare No, I mean the mega gets seven turrets and the apoc 8. The t2 versions both get 100% on 4 turrets for 8 effective turrets. In essence, the Kronos gains one turret over its t1 counterpart, the Paladin does not. Even forgetting for a second that the Megathron has launcher slots, how does that translate into an imbalance between the Kronos and the Paladin themelves? The Kronos and the Paladin both get a web bonus. For the Kronos this makes perfect sense. A web is practically required kit for a blasterboat and it WANTS to be close. For the Paladin? It does NOT want to get into web range. If it gets into web range of the Kronos the Paladin is toast. Blasters already do more damage and the Kronos also gets a damage bonus. Exactly what is it you think the Paladin is meant to fight? At ranges it likes shooting at the Abaddon will do better. A Geddon would do better. At ranges where its web bonus comes into effect? Any ship that is in range almost certainly meant to be there (Kronos or Mega) and will wail on the Paladin. Any ship that does not want to be there will likely have no problem staying away from it.
Incantare Caldari Kernel of War Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2007.10.27 02:13:00 - [24] Edited by: Incantare on 27/10/2007 02:15:07 Originally by: Reem Fairchild Even forgetting for a second that the Megathron has launcher slots Forgettable indeed since it doesn't have the fittings to put anything useful in it. Quote: how does that translate into an imbalance between the Kronos and the Paladin themelves? The Kronos and Paladin have the same slot layout and 2 identical bonuses plus one bonus to their respecitve weapon types' tracking. Up till there they are very similar ships. But then Kronos gets that extra effective turret, its the only marauder to get a damage increase worth mentioning and it gets 50 m3 drone bay more plus the 25% damage bonus vs. the Paladin's 25% max cap. Part of the problem is that they're based on the t1 hulls and the apoc is underpowered to being with and the devs didn't make a particular effort to change that with the t2 version. Someone calculated the Kronos would do 40 something percent damage more than the Paladin, while at the same time the Kronos takes fully advantage of the webber bonus, the Paladin's optimal with multi is above 10k though so the bonus is less useful. In the end, the Kronos is going to be a monster while the Paladin... meh. It's an overpriced Apoc. Not worth it. Edit: beaten to it by Imperator Jora'h, but anyway the difference between them is large.
Reem Fairchild Minmatar Republic University	Posted - 2007.10.27 02:14:00 - [25] Originally by: Imperator Jora'h Originally by: Reem Fairchild The only really significant difference I can see between the different ships is that the Kronos has twice the drone bay/bandwith of the other ships. And they all have damage bonuses...EXCEPT the Paladin. The Golem does not. The Vargur uses projectiles, which have sucky dps without some kind of damage and/or rate of fire bonuses just to bring them to the level of other ships. And on the Kronos, well if it uses railguns I think anyone who has flown Caldari rail ships knows what kind of damage railguns without damage bonuses do. And if it uses blasters, well they have very small range, and are meant to outdamage everything else at that range. Even with the bonuses the Pulse Lasers would do more damage once you get a few km outside of blaster optimal.
Reem Fairchild Minmatar Republic University	Posted - 2007.10.27 02:21:00 - [26] Originally by: Imperator Jora'h The Kronos and the Paladin both get a web bonus. For the Kronos this makes perfect sense. A web is practically required kit for a blasterboat and it WANTS to be close. Exactly what is it you think the Paladin is meant to fight? Mission rats. And that's exactly what the web bonus, in both cases, is for. It's those pesky scrambling frig rats. Quote: For the Paladin? It does NOT want to get into web range. If it gets into web range of the Kronos the Paladin is toast. Blasters already do more damage and the Kronos also gets a damage bonus. 2 webs fitted on the Paladin, and the Kronos is toast.
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2007.10.27 02:26:00 - [27] 5% bonus to large energy turret damage per Amarr BS level 10% bonus to large energy turret optimal per Amarr BS level 7.5% bonus to armor repair amount per Marauder level 7.5% bonus to large energy turret tracking per Marauder level Now, THAT would be a GOOD Paladin. _ 1\|2\|3
Nomakai Delateriel Amarr Delictum 23216	Posted - 2007.10.27 02:31:00 - [28] Originally by: Akita T 5% bonus to large energy turret damage per Amarr BS level 10% bonus to large energy turret optimal per Amarr BS level 7.5% bonus to armor repair amount per Marauder level 7.5% bonus to large energy turret tracking per Marauder level Now, THAT would be a GOOD Paladin. Maybe slightly too overpowered with tachyons(the equivalent of 10 unbonused tacyons with 50% extra range, when most ships can't even fit 6 of them)? Well, unless we compare it to a Kronos. Then its powerlevel is just about right... ______________________________________________ -You can never earn my respect, only lose it. It's given freely, and only grudgingly retracted when necessary.
Reem Fairchild Minmatar Republic University	Posted - 2007.10.27 02:32:00 - [29] Originally by: Akita T 5% bonus to large energy turret damage per Amarr BS level 10% bonus to large energy turret optimal per Amarr BS level 7.5% bonus to armor repair amount per Marauder level 7.5% bonus to large energy turret tracking per Marauder level Now, THAT would be a GOOD Paladin. Yeah, because it would be grossly overpowered.
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2007.10.27 02:41:00 - [30] Edited by: Akita T on 27/10/2007 02:44:38 Good luck fiting any decent tank with tachyons on the grid the Paladin has. Damage-wise, it's on par with Abaddon (identical, actually), but without the Abaddon's capacitor issues. Plus, extra range and tracking. Ok, so maybe change the optimal back to the web bonus. But make it a +10% RANGE bonus, not an effectiveness bonus. _ 1\|2\|3

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