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Imperator Jora'h	Posted - 2007.10.27 02:45:00 - [31] Originally by: Reem Fairchild The Golem does not. Explosion velocity and target painters increase missile damage. AKA a damage bonus. Quote: The Vargur uses projectiles, which have sucky dps without some kind of damage and/or rate of fire bonuses just to bring them to the level of other ships. Still has a damage bonus. Quote: And on the Kronos, well if it uses railguns I think anyone who has flown Caldari rail ships knows what kind of damage railguns without damage bonuses do. And if it uses blasters, well they have very small range, and are meant to outdamage everything else at that range. Has a damage bonus. Rails are long range...they trade range for DPS. How it always is in EVE. Quote: Even with the bonuses the Pulse Lasers would do more damage once you get a few km outside of blaster optimal. Sure...if I can keep the Kronos at a narrow range where I can hit him with Pulse but am outside his range of course I am fine. So what? That has always been true. Good luck as it MWDs into you and then webs you.
Imperator Jora'h	Posted - 2007.10.27 02:52:00 - [32] Originally by: Reem Fairchild Edited by: Reem Fairchild on 27/10/2007 02:29:51 Originally by: Imperator Jora'h The Kronos and the Paladin both get a web bonus. For the Kronos this makes perfect sense. A web is practically required kit for a blasterboat and it WANTS to be close. Exactly what is it you think the Paladin is meant to fight? Mission rats. And that's exactly what the web bonus, in both cases, is for. It's those pesky scrambling frig rats. Huh? I do plenty of missions and never have an issue with pesky scrambling frigs. I either pop them on the way in or use drones. Never, ever been a problem (I mission in an Abaddon or Absolution). Quote: 2 webs fitted on the Paladin, and the Kronos is toast. Edit: Actually, scratch the two webs. With the bonus, one web is enough as long as they don't start the battle within web range. 1 web turned on at 10 km (with the Paladin moving away and the Kronos chasing) is enough to keep the Kronos from getting into real blaster range. At 10km the Kronos will annihilate the Paladin (they are both in web range of each other).
Reem Fairchild Minmatar Republic University	Posted - 2007.10.27 03:03:00 - [33] Originally by: Imperator Jora'h Originally by: Reem Fairchild The Golem does not. Explosion velocity and target painters increase missile damage. AKA a damage bonus. Only against smaller ships, and the exact same can be said for the web and the tracking bonus. Quote: Quote: The Vargur uses projectiles, which have sucky dps without some kind of damage and/or rate of fire bonuses just to bring them to the level of other ships. Still has a damage bonus. (A rate of fire bonus actually.) And how does a Minmatar battleship projectile turret with bonuses compare to an equivalent laser turret without? Quote: Quote: And on the Kronos, well if it uses railguns I think anyone who has flown Caldari rail ships knows what kind of damage railguns without damage bonuses do. And if it uses blasters, well they have very small range, and are meant to outdamage everything else at that range. Has a damage bonus. Rails are long range...they trade range for DPS. How it always is in EVE. Ok, and how does a bonused battleship railgun compare to an unbonused equivalent beam laser? Quote: Quote: Even with the bonuses the Pulse Lasers would do more damage once you get a few km outside of blaster optimal. Sure...if I can keep the Kronos at a narrow range where I can hit him with Pulse but am outside his range of course I am fine. So what? That has always been true. Good luck as it MWDs into you and then webs you. Assuming they start the battle outside of web range, the Paladin will be moving away to keep distance and the Kronos chasing. Both on mwd. Assuming the Kronos is a little faster, the Kronos eventually gets in range and they both web each other. Inertia will keep both drifting for a bit before they slow down to webbed speed. From there on the Kronos (assuming it double webs and the Paladin only has one web) will be closing distance at a whopping speed of some 15 m/s at very best.
Norris Packard Wings of Redemption Black Flag Alliance	Posted - 2007.10.27 03:04:00 - [34] Originally by: Akita T 5% bonus to large energy turret damage per Amarr BS level 10% bonus to large energy turret optimal per Amarr BS level 7.5% bonus to armor repair amount per Marauder level 7.5% bonus to large energy turret tracking per Marauder level Now, THAT would be a GOOD Paladin. That would be sweet. Megapulse on her would rock.
Reem Fairchild Minmatar Republic University	Posted - 2007.10.27 03:11:00 - [35] Originally by: Imperator Jora'h At 10km the Kronos will annihilate the Paladin (they are both in web range of each other). Depends on what ammo is used by the two ships, but in general I'd say no. Even battleship size neutron blasters have really tiny optimal range if you're using high damage ammo. The drone bay might tip the balance, but I've already agreed that that is something that makes the Kronos imbalanced compared to all the other Marauders.
Myra2007	Posted - 2007.10.27 03:11:00 - [36] Originally by: Reem Fairchild Mission rats. And that's exactly what the web bonus, in both cases, is for. It's those pesky scrambling frig rats. People don't web the small things and use their guns on it. Either they shoot them at range where tehy can't web it anyway or they use drones. The bonus is stupid unless you are going to equip blasters and take the kronos into pvp ofc,... Originally by: Reem Fairchild 2 webs fitted on the Paladin, and the Kronos is toast. No thats bullcrap. You would have to field an mwd to fly away from the kronos and then web it. If you fit megapulses you won't have an mwd or you will only have a single rep and be badly outtanked by the kronos. If you use dlps your dmg will suck badly and never scratch the kronos in the slightest. But even with 4 x MP2 and 3 x hs 2 you won't break the tank of a dualrep kronos. It will tank you just like a hyperion would. And the kronos will outdamage you in the whole webrange. So its not like webbing would help anything at all even if you actually managed to web him at 9km (which you won't) besides making him use null or fight in falloff. So no its not gonna happen. A Paladin will never beat a kronos in webrange just like an apoc won't beat a thron there. You just don't know what you are talking about. The idea in itself is so laughable that i really have to ask myself if you have run the numbers. Probably not. You are just trolling.
Imperator Jora'h	Posted - 2007.10.27 03:20:00 - [37] Originally by: Reem Fairchild Only against smaller ships, and the exact same can be said for the web and the tracking bonus. It matters for torps against most any ship smaller than a tier-3 battleship and torps themselves are getting a considerable overall damage buff. The Golem will HURT spamming torps and its cruise will be very painful to anything. Quote: (A rate of fire bonus actually.) And how does a Minmatar battleship projectile turret with bonuses compare to an equivalent laser turret without? ROF bonus IS a damage bonus. You shoot more in a given timeframe = better DPS. Partly the ROF issue with projectiles is CCP's effort to make them unappealing to anything other than a Minmatar ship with the bonus. For Amarr it is the horrendous cap use and the cap bonus to keep them Amarr only weapons. Except of course the Paladin gets no cap bonus to weapons (it gets an overall cap bonus which is crap...Paladin actually has less cap than a Kronos in the base ship anyway). Quote: Ok, and how does a bonused battleship railgun compare to an unbonused equivalent beam laser? Rails are LONGER range than a beam laser so yes the beam has more damage. This is as it always has been. You trade range for damage. Except now a bonused rail will approach the DPS of a beam laser and STILL have the better range. Quote: Assuming they start the battle outside of web range, the Paladin will be moving away to keep distance and the Kronos chasing. Both on mwd. Assuming the Kronos is a little faster, the Kronos eventually gets in range and they both web each other. Inertia will keep both drifting for a bit before they slow down to webbed speed. From there on the Kronos (assuming it double webs and the Paladin only has one web) will be closing distance at a whopping speed of some 15 m/s at very best. Kronos can hit for better damage than the Paladin out to 16-17 Km. Still out of web range and while an MWD is required kit for a blasterboat and MWD on an Amarr ship is almost always a bad idea. Not to mention on the Paladin does NOT have a bonus to laser use making an MWD even a worse idea. The MWD would negate the cap bonus the Paladin gets and the Kronos while losing cap to the MWD is worse off the Kronos has a better base cap anyway so it is not as worse off.
Imperator Jora'h	Posted - 2007.10.27 03:31:00 - [38] Originally by: Reem Fairchild Depends on what ammo is used by the two ships, but in general I'd say no. Even battleship size neutron blasters have really tiny optimal range if you're using high damage ammo. With Antimatter ammo and good skills the Neutron-II can hit out to 17 Km (w/falloff). With Multifrequency ammo and good skills Megapulse Laser-II can hit out to 25 Km (w/falloff).
Zana Kito Antares Fleet Yards SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2007.10.27 03:36:00 - [39] Kronos vs Paladin. Same ship layout and design. Both tank similarly, yet one ship is faster, more agile, has a much bigger drone bay, and does 40% more dps. You can guess which one that is. Saying the paladin looks good cos you didn't compare it to any other marauder is like saying your wife is sexy hot when you are blind.
Reem Fairchild Minmatar Republic University	Posted - 2007.10.27 03:38:00 - [40] Originally by: Imperator Jora'h Originally by: Reem Fairchild Depends on what ammo is used by the two ships, but in general I'd say no. Even battleship size neutron blasters have really tiny optimal range if you're using high damage ammo. With Antimatter ammo and good skills the Neutron-II can hit out to 17 Km (w/falloff). And only a 4.5 km optimal. However, I just double checked teh numbers, and a tech 2 neutron blaster cannon with null ammo (a maximum optimal of 11 km, but more likely somewhere right below 10 for most) and damage bonus does more damage than an unbonused tech 2 mega pulse laser with high damage crystals. So, I guess you are right.
Reem Fairchild Minmatar Republic University	Posted - 2007.10.27 03:41:00 - [41] Originally by: Zana Kito Kronos vs Paladin. Same ship layout and design. Both tank similarly, yet one ship is faster, more agile, has a much bigger drone bay, and does 40% more dps. You can guess which one that is. Saying the paladin looks good cos you didn't compare it to any other marauder is like saying your wife is sexy hot when you are blind. It's only the Kronos that you can at all claim to be better than the Paladin, and that's because it's better than any of the other Marauders in the first place.
Imperator Jora'h	Posted - 2007.10.27 03:50:00 - [42] Originally by: Reem Fairchild It's only the Kronos that you can at all claim to be better than the Paladin, and that's because it's better than any of the other Marauders in the first place. Jury is still out on the Golem. Not so sure it will make a good mission ship since NPCs are effective with Defenders although with the torp buff it may work fine. Looks like it might be a tad worse than a Caldari Navy Raven (or Raven Navy Issue if you prefer) but then it is cheaper although not cheap. Vargur looks very nice. Might make an excellent sniper with that falloff bonus. While it lacks the damage bonus (as the ROF bonus of course) of the Tempest it has better range and frankly with a double-damage gun if it gets a wrecking it is going to hurt really bad. In short the other Marauders certainly look to have a place in life and are pretty nice ships with the Kronos pulling ahead of all (Gallente...go figure). The Paladin on the other hand is just pure fail. I seriously wonder if anyone will buy one as is unless they want a 700 million loot monkey (cheaper to run a second account and loot with that).
Reem Fairchild Minmatar Republic University	Posted - 2007.10.27 03:51:00 - [43] Originally by: Imperator Jora'h It matters for torps against most any ship smaller than a tier-3 battleship and torps themselves are getting a considerable overall damage buff. The Golem will HURT spamming torps and its cruise will be very painful to anything. That's assuming the torp change does happen, and all the bonuses in question will do is actually enable it to do full dps, it won't increase it's theoretical "paper" dps, at all. Same exact thing can be said for the tracking and web bonuses. Quote: Partly the ROF issue with projectiles is CCP's effort to make them unappealing to anything other than a Minmatar ship with the bonus. I think that's the closest I'll get you to say "they need the bonus to have at least near equivalent dps", so I'll have to settle for it. Quote: Rails are LONGER range than a beam laser so yes the beam has more damage. This is as it always has been. You trade range for damage. Except now a bonused rail will approach the DPS of a beam laser and STILL have the better range. Which is in both cases range so long that the difference will only really matter if they are fleet snipe fitted.
Imperator Jora'h	Posted - 2007.10.27 04:43:00 - [44] Originally by: Reem Fairchild I think that's the closest I'll get you to say "they need the bonus to have at least near equivalent dps", so I'll have to settle for it. You're not getting it. They are not supposed to do equivalent DPS. Beams should be the highest damaging "long" range weapons. There are also the shortest ranged long ranged weapons (that's a mouth full). Arty has an alphastrike capability as well (low ROF but hits hard). Additionally Minmatar are the fastest race so while they won't out DPS beam lasers they can stay at their range and beat down a laser ship. On balance yet another reason why Amarr fail overall. Quote: Which is in both cases range so long that the difference will only really matter if they are fleet snipe fitted. Dunno what fleet snipe fitting has to do with it.
Tar Kara Caldari	Posted - 2007.10.27 07:22:00 - [45] Reem Fairchild Megatron always fly on nwd, so web will stop him actualy when he will be closer then 10KM(10KM web Range) he have web too, soo Paladin (WEB)whil stay 5< so he will be in Blasteres/Autocanaos range. And paladyn will have 50% dmg becouse he will be (optimal range (15KM- 1 x fall off(8KM) so max 50% from lasers. * 5% bonus to large laser turret damage per A BS level * 2% bonus to stasis webifier velocity factor per Amarr BS level * 7.5% bonus to armor repair amount per Marauder level * 20% bonus to Stasis Webifier range per Marauder level * Role bonus: 100% bonus to large energy turret damage * Role bonus: 100% bonus to range and velocity of tractor beams Give them more cap on ship so thay can keep thay lasers shooting , and the same Dron Bay as Kronos, so no G no M no Caldari nerf ;p
Leandro Salazar The Blackguard Wolves Knights Of the Southerncross	Posted - 2007.10.27 07:52:00 - [46] Originally by: Imperator Jora'h Originally by: Reem Fairchild Only against smaller ships, and the exact same can be said for the web and the tracking bonus. It matters for torps against most any ship smaller than a tier-3 battleship and torps themselves are getting a considerable overall damage buff. The Golem will HURT spamming torps and its cruise will be very painful to anything. The explosion velocity bonus helps pretty much not at all in PvE. Not even against smaller ships. With maybe a handful of exceptions (like spider drones) all NPCs orbit at speeds lower (or only slighly higher) than torpedo explosion velocities, so this 'bonus' would only help on the few torps that hit stuff that is actually approaching you at high speeds. At a guess, 95% of all missile damage reduction in PvE is from low sig radius, and only 5% is from velocity. So if it was an explosion radius bonus, then yes, it would be an indirect damage bonus. But explosion velocity is like no bonus at all for PvE purposes. There is no 'n' in turret There is no 'r' in faction There is no 'a' in Scorpion There is no 'e' in Caldari There is no makeup in rogue drones
Alyxa Mahan	Posted - 2007.10.27 09:33:00 - [47] Originally by: Reem Fairchild Ok, and how does a bonused battleship railgun compare to an unbonused equivalent beam laser? Same damage (with longrange T2 ammo, before resists) over a longer range, less than half the cap, and easier fittings. Originally by: Reem Fairchild Assuming they start the battle outside of web range, the Paladin will be moving away to keep distance and the Kronos chasing. Both on mwd. Assuming the Kronos is a little faster, the Kronos eventually gets in range and they both web each other. Inertia will keep both drifting for a bit before they slow down to webbed speed. From there on the Kronos (assuming it double webs and the Paladin only has one web) will be closing distance at a whopping speed of some 15 m/s at very best. The entire scenario is ridiculous. Any Amarr ship that ends up in web range of a blaster boat is toast, and that even before you factor in the drones.
Nomakai Delateriel Amarr Delictum 23216	Posted - 2007.10.27 10:29:00 - [48] Originally by: Alyxa Mahan The entire scenario is ridiculous. Any Amarr ship that ends up in web range of a blaster boat is toast, and that even before you factor in the drones. The only chance I see here 1vs1 is if the Paladin is actually using an Officers web (the bonus would mitigate the mere 75% efficiency, sort of). ...and no. A domination web won't do. At 15 the Kronos would still rip the Paladin apart using Null or even regular antimatter. ______________________________________________ -You can never earn my respect, only lose it. It's given freely, and only grudgingly retracted when necessary.
Hydrogen Art of War Cult of War	Posted - 2007.10.27 11:38:00 - [49] They should just make the Paladin a Khanid ship snifff - Khanid armor resist - cruise/torp dmg/rof bonus - ... sob __ - click here -
Kuolematon Space Perverts and Forum Warriors United Cult of War	Posted - 2007.10.27 11:39:00 - [50] As pure amarr person, all I want to know is that CAN I USE HS WHILE HAVING BUBBLE UP?! :loladin: It's great being Amarr isn't it.
Chief Judge	Posted - 2007.10.27 13:06:00 - [51] Edited by: Chief Judge on 27/10/2007 13:08:33 Balanced Amarr Paladin fix? (i dont know if this has already been discussed but anways i give it a try.. Looking forward to your comments.. if u ok this sign it 5% bonus to capacitor capacity per Amarr BS level 5% bonus to large energy turret damage per Amarr BS level 5% bonus to armor resistance per Marauder level 7.5% bonus to large energy turret tracking per Marauder level that would be fixed non-overpowered usefull paladin.. why?.. 'cause: 1st -i cannot see the reason why is the rep amount bonus on amarr ships?!! (not native bonus for it) Kronos and Paladin they both have same slot layout ATM and 3 of the same bonuses.. THIS DOES NOT SHOW VERSATILITY.. or race originality.. 2nd - web bonus and tracking bonus both on the one laser ship? lasers are kings of med range combat.. why use multifreq when u can sit comfortably 40clicks away and rain almost the same dmg.. (yes u deal mostly EM/and omni tanks are tough for amarr but all that is discussion for another thread/fix) stasis web bonus is really not needed here.. instead i would introduce dmg bonus,all of the other races have it.. amarr need it.. (ROF bonus would be too much) 3rd - i am also seeing the new paladin with a bigger base cap amount.. There really must be a reason to fly a paladin.. CCP please give these ideas a thought.. i really feel that amarr have not been given much thought with these new ships.. (i would also like to see 5 or 10% bonus on optimal range instead of 5% more cap but that would indeed be overpowered )
Bentula	Posted - 2007.10.27 15:14:00 - [52] Tbh, 25% cap bonus and webstrength are both very strong contenders for the most useless general purpose boni. You dont need them for pve, we have killed 30k frigs for years without such a bonus. And you dont need 25% more cap either, the best normal mission runners domi/raven/abaddon all dont have this bonus. So surely those boni rock in pvp? Nope. Capbonus is extremely useless, cause without passive capmodules its only like 5cap/s difference. The missing cap bonus on guns does more than eating that up. Web is also useless on paladin, the list of ships you dont want to fight within 10km against is simply staggering. This doesnt even start to mention that the paladin, just like the vargur, has fubar fittings. And unlike blasters there is no ion's that you can use to safe some grid, with DHP you jump right down to electrons.
Kadoes Khan	Posted - 2007.10.27 23:04:00 - [53] Originally by: Hydrogen They should just make the Paladin a Khanid ship snifff - Khanid armor resist - cruise/torp dmg/rof bonus - ... sob Yes please. -=^=- "Someday the world will recognize the genius in my insanity."
Sevis	Posted - 2007.10.28 22:56:00 - [54] Edited by: Sevis on 28/10/2007 22:57:10 Bah, you guys are all trying to fix the damage with a ship bonus. That's not the way to do it. 10% Laser Cap use per level 5% Cap size per level 5% Armor resist per level 7.5% tracking per level +1000pg +1 low slot Now you can fit 4 Tachs, a T2 Rep, a T2 MWD, and full tank/gank without a single grid mod. The extra low slot balances out the extra drone space. And the 5% cap / level frees a midslot you would otherwise spend on a Cap Recharger. Now if you want twice the web effectiveness, you fit 2 webs and you'll have space for it.
Madla Mafia The Dead Man's Hand	Posted - 2007.10.29 13:31:00 - [55] Let's make this short. Paladin = Another kick in the pants for Amarr. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Amarr - getting screwed since 2005.
DeadDuck Amarr Amarr Border Defense Consortium Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2007.10.29 14:26:00 - [56] The ship simply doesnt worth the amount of isk they will cost.
Hastur DragonTooth Amarr Call of Cthulhu	Posted - 2007.10.29 14:51:00 - [57] Originally by: DeadDuck The ship simply doesnt worth the amount of isk they will cost. CCP will look at the stats on the new T2 ships after a month or so and find single-digit numbers for paladins in game. They'll scratch their heads and come to the conclusion that the abba and geddon are too overpowered. They'll then nerf those boats as a way to force people to use the paladin and apoc. People just misconstrued the dev blog about Amarr. You see, the "oomph" they promised us is simply the sound that we're supposed to make when they kick us in the stomach. Scientific test CCP ran to prove that EVE is heavily weighted in favor of Amarr, thus needing another nerf...
Kruel Blunt Force Syndicate	Posted - 2007.10.29 15:30:00 - [58] Originally by: Chief Judge 5% bonus to capacitor capacity per Amarr BS level 5% bonus to large energy turret damage per Amarr BS level 5% bonus to armor resistance per Marauder level 7.5% bonus to large energy turret tracking per Marauder level[/b] ^^ That's exactly what I was just about to suggest. The currently proposed web bonus is just "WTF?". 7.5% Armor per lvl is Gallente, not Amarr - someone at CCP get confused?
Sevis	Posted - 2007.10.29 16:19:00 - [59] Edited by: Sevis on 29/10/2007 16:26:11 You guys do realize that the 10% cap use/level bonus frees up considerably more cap than the 5% cap size/level bonus, right? I'll demonstrate using the Apoc's cap size alond with Energy Management V,Energy Systems Operation V, and Controlled Bursts V. All are reasonable for a long term Amarr pilot. 5% Cap size bonus @ L5 w/ Tachs & Multifreq 4xT2 Tachs, no bonus = -22.8 Peak Cap recharge, with bonus = 26 Available cap = +3.2 10% cap use per level @L5 w/ Tachs & Multifreq 4xT2 Tachs = -11.4 Peak Cap recharge, no bonus = 20.8 Available cap recharge = +9.4 5% Cap size bonus @ L5 w/ Tachs & Radio 4xT2 Tachs = -19.4 Peak Cap recharge, with bonus = 26 Available cap = +6.6 10% cap use per level @L5 w/ Tachs & Radio 4xT2 Tachs = -9.7 Peak Cap recharge, no bonus = 20.8 Available cap recharge = +11.1 5% Cap size bonus @ L5 w/ Pulses & Multifreq 4xT2 Megapulse = -15.2 Peak Cap recharge, with bonus = 26 Available cap = 10.8 10% cap use per level @L5 w/ Pulses & Multifreq 4xT2 Megapulse = -7.6 Peak Cap recharge, no bonus = 20.8 Available cap recharge = 13.2 5% Cap size bonus @ L5 w/ Pulses & Radio 4xT2 Megapulse = 13 Peak Cap recharge, with bonus = 26 Available cap = 13 10% cap use per level @L5 w/ Pulses & Radio 4xT2 Megapulse = 6.5 Peak Cap recharge, no bonus = 20.8 Available cap recharge = 14.3 These numbers don't turn around until you get a much, much larger cap. If the Paladin has equal or less cap recharge than the Apoc (pre bonus) then the 10% cap use/level bonus is the better of the pair.
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.10.29 17:45:00 - [60] Originally by: Akita T 5% bonus to large energy turret damage per Amarr BS level 10% bonus to large energy turret optimal per Amarr BS level 7.5% bonus to armor repair amount per Marauder level 7.5% bonus to large energy turret tracking per Marauder level Now, THAT would be a GOOD Paladin. Overpowered.

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