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Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
244
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Posted - 2012.01.27 16:40:00 -
[1] - Quote
local is actaully very good.
It tells you what you need to know if you are concerned about getting blobbed - how many and in what corp. It does not tell you ship types etc.
Delaying intel? Either pve ships will still have time to get away or they wont.
If you they have time to get away then nothing will change. CCP will just do allot of work that changes nothing.
If pve ships do not have time to get away then there will be less pve in low sec and null sec. Is that what we want?
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
244
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Posted - 2012.01.28 01:43:00 -
[2] - Quote
foxnod wrote:Get rid of local everywhere and replace with a new intel tool
That gives you the same information as local! Thats progress. 
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
244
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Posted - 2012.01.28 01:49:00 -
[3] - Quote
Razin wrote:Cearain wrote:
Delaying intel? Either pve ships will still have time to get away or they wont.
If you're aligned you always have time to get away. Delayed local would necessitate some balancing of the cloaking ships to keep that true.
What are you trying to accomplish?
Make it easier to bait and blob? Delayed local will work and no other changes needed.
Kill pvers? Then it will work if they change recons.
Really all these nerf local threads never really say what exactly they are trying to accomplish. In the meantime they will **** up the game.
Some claim they get upset because its free intel and think you should have to hit a button or something. If the problem is that it is free then make us pay concord a fee to see local.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
244
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Posted - 2012.01.28 04:32:00 -
[4] - Quote
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
I believe by removing the instant omniscient knowledge provided by local, and replacing it with an intel tool that lets you know there is a pilot there, but leaves some ambiguity as to whether that pilot is friendly or not, you can change many aspects of this game for the better.
Change the game for the better how? Specifically what do you want to do in game that local prevents?
Let me give specific examples of how no local will ruin my game:
I know I use local to avoid getting blobbed when there are tons of wartargets in the same corp as a bait ship. So i know without local I would take the bait and get blobbed *allot* more.
I know that when I see local spike after i start a fight I may want to burn away from whatever I am fighting or risk getting blobbed. So I know without local I would have even less of a chance of avoiding getting blobbed by a fleet jumping in.
I know that when I see no one in local I will just be wasting my time scanning the system down. So I know I will waste more time if local is removed.
In other words I know allot of specifics of how no local will make my game experience much worse. How specifically will it make your game better?
Also local is not omniscient. It doesn't tell you what ships or even if the person is docked. It does tell you the minimum necessary to determine if there is an enemy blob in the system. That is it tells you how many and if they are in the same corp or alliance.
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
The primary thing I want to accomplish is to add some mystery and subterfuge to the game.
This isn't to up the number of ratter km's, this is about NOT instantly knowing whether the 6 ships that just flew through local are a hostile gang up to no good or a bunch of allies running a plex. Will this make it easier to setup baits and/or traps... probably. But that's not a bad thing...
You mean people won't know a blob moved into system? Or is already sitting on grid with the bait cloaked?
When people are uncertain what size force they are dealing with in eve their response is to plan for the worse and ship up and get in a big fleet. That way they can take on whatever is out there.
It is only because of intel tools that people can take *reasonable* risks and do small scale or solo pvp. I see you do allot of it so surely you know this. I admit I am really confused by someone with your experience advocating this.
We may just disagree. I think we get more than enough bait and blob in eve.
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
It means loading grid in a crowded system isn't enough to tell you how many good guys and bad guys are out and about. It's about adding VALUE to intel. When people whine about free intel, they don't me free in terms of isk... they mean free in terms of EFFORT.
IMO Requiring even more effort/time to get a decent pvp fight in eve is not the way to go. CCP should be thinking the opposite. How can they make it so players can get more fights in less time.
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
Currently, intel gathering primarily involves sticking a ship into system and counting people in the local chat channel.
Thats the first step but then you also want to see who is in what ships and hopefully even get eyes on them. You know this.
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
I fully acknowledge such a system is not easy to implement, and it needs to be carefully balanced. It should not make killing ratters and miners easy. If implemented poorly, it would be very disasterous for the game.
I'm glad you admit this. It shows you understand this is pretty important.
Thats why I ask: why mess with it? I mean specifically what is it that you want to do in game now, that you can't do due to local?
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
272
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Posted - 2012.02.20 05:57:00 -
[5] - Quote
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:Do you prefer the omniscient, instantaneous Local Chat we have now? [ 12 For Keep Local ] or Would you prefer a more balanced intel system? [ 29 Replace Local with an Intel Tool ] By balanced, I mean a system that:
- A.) Alerts you quickly (not necessarily instantly) to the presence of all potential threats in space.
- B.) Leaves some ambiguity as to whether a potential threat is a friend or foe until you get intel on it.
- C.) Doesn't nerf the cloak out of play, nor boost it into the God of Hunting.
.....
You haven't indicated what in particular you can't do now that you would like to do if local was nerfed.
Your survey is a bit skewed as well.
1) because it doesn't offer anything concrete. It just sort of says would you like "something better." Something more balanced? Sure we all like balance. Who is the guy that wants imbalance? But you never indicated what specifically you can't do now that you think you would be able to do without local so we can't tell to whom in particular local favors in an imbalanced way.
2) Most people who don't want it changed will not even read this thread. If I put a survey up asking who would like more variety of clothes in the nex store I would probably get a higher percent of people indicating they would prefer that than the population at large. That is because people who don't really care to change the status quo will be less likely to respond. To that thread.
I think we should look at how people are voting with their feet. The main difference between known space and wormhole space is the lack of local. Not many want to live there. If 60% of eve decided to live in no local wormholes I think that would be decent evidence that people really want it changed.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
272
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Posted - 2012.02.20 06:42:00 -
[6] - Quote
Mechael wrote:Cearain wrote: what is it that you want to do in game now, that you can't do due to local? Move through a system without anyone knowing that I'm moving through the system. As it stands, this is only possible if they aren't looking at local for whatever reason. It can help with corp/alliance logistics, ratting/mining in out-of-the-way systems, as well as make getting the drop on said ratters/miners much more fun. ....
Yes its true that you would be able to move through the systems without others seeing you are there. (I guess unless they are spamming dscan like a freak) That is basically just restating the the proposal - that you don't want local. I guess I wonder why you care about this.
I can see how it would help you get a drop on ratters and miners. Ganking pve ships and industrials seems to be what this keeps boiling down to.
How would this help with corp logistics? Are you currently unable to supply your corp due to local?
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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Cearain
Imperial Outlaws
287
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Posted - 2012.02.22 02:25:00 -
[7] - Quote
Gizznitt that was a great response. ItGÇÖs too bad that was at the bottom of the last page.
I think after reading it our difference of opinions on this is due to the different styles of play.
One minor gripe I have with your wording is you keep referring to local as GÇ£omniscient.GÇ¥ Omniscient means all knowing. But local does not tell you everything about the people there. It doesnGÇÖt even tell you if the people are docked up let alone what ships they are in. ItGÇÖs clearly not omniscient.
What it does tell you are the preliminary things you need to know as to whether that system is promising for finding a fight or not. It tells you what corps or alliances the people are with and this in turn can tell you if they are likely together or seperate. This also tells you if they are friendlies so I donGÇÖt waste time scanning them down. This is really just the bare minimum amount of intel I need to determine if that system is worth sticking around in or if I should move on immediately.
It seems like you fly in more proper fleets with scouts and more organization than I do. For me, in low sec/faction war, I look to see if there is a fleet up from my corp or generally something like that. If there is not or I canGÇÖt commit to one I go ahead and roam solo.
I donGÇÖt know that I am too GÇ£lazyGÇ¥ to scout. ItGÇÖs just that I hate dual boxing alts. (I guess my aversion to dual/triple boxing alts might be considered lazy. I do think it is too much like work for a computer game. But it also completely ruins the immersion for me. Also IGÇÖm too old to try to keep track of all these different ships in pvp situations.)
Even if I am not solo most of the gangs I am in are small and rag tag enough that most of the GÇ£scoutsGÇ¥ are just someoneGÇÖs alt sitting in noob ship or cloaky anyway. ItGÇÖs not like anyone specifically wants to be the scout in some ship that is fit with modules for scouting. Now players I fly with will do that from time to time but itGÇÖs not because they like flying a probe ships. They are taking one for the team. In bigger fleets, of course, you are more likely to get a few pilots who really like that GÇ£scout roleGÇ¥.
Hence I think your idea might be viable in null sec with the larger more organized fleets but for what I do in low sec I think this would be problematic.
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:Cearain wrote: IMO Requiring even more effort/time to get a decent pvp fight in eve is not the way to go. CCP should be thinking the opposite. How can they make it so players can get more fights in less time. Outside of some artificial arena system, the only way to create more fights in less time is to increase the population density. I do not know how this will alter the population density of eve. It makes finding a target within very friendly space more difficult. It makes finding targets in unfriendly space easier. Ideally, this would increase the number of roaming gangs, which would increase the number of good fights. However, thatGÇÖs mostly speculation on my part.
I think local is a huge help for me to find good fights fast. Not only can immediately I skip systems that just have allies in them but I can also skip systems that have huge numbers of wts that arenGÇÖt typically in that system.
But with no local I would need to spend time warping around that system to see who they are. I know this may sound petty but I already rarely pvp because it takes too long to get fights. Anything that adds to that time is really going in the wrong direction.
I think this shows the big difference in how we operate. In faction war/ low sec., I may see 5 different people in local. From local I see 3 are wartargets. Perhaps the other 2 are not on scan. Well if I see say 3 destroyerss together on my dscan I know I can go fight them in my t1 cruiser. Sure itGÇÖs possible the other 2 are alts or friends of the enemy but usually I know I can go ahead and get that fight. If I didnGÇÖt know there were three wartargets I wouldnGÇÖt know I could go there. I wouldnGÇÖt know how big their gang was at all. So I would be hesitant to engage at all. It would require more warping around in a game that I think requires far too much already.
Now if I start a fight with them and local spikes with wts I will try to get out. If it spikes with non wartargets or friendly I can keep fighting.
For a place like amamake I would get large numbers of ships on scan. Now with local I could see if anyone is in the same corp or allied corps. But with non descript local this would just be a complete crap shoot.
Overall i think your replacement of local is one of the more sensible ones. Its just that I like knowing if scanning down a system is going to be a waste of time right away. Thats what local does.
Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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