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girlybabe	Posted - 2007.10.30 20:37:00 - [31] Torpedos are this way. And changing it will effect gameplay really bad. And ravens do not have a strong tank or cap. So they should atleast have some good range and some good damage output.
Namelesz Viscosity	Posted - 2007.10.30 20:45:00 - [32] Originally by: girlybabe Torpedos are this way. And changing it will effect gameplay really bad. And ravens do not have a strong tank or cap. So they should atleast have some good range and some good damage output. actually they do.
Revan Crow Minmatar KraehenKlaue	Posted - 2007.10.30 21:35:00 - [33] ive done so many missions in a t2 torp raven that eve itself became boring for me...it became "warp in, sit still and hit F1 to F6 ...." strangely now im doing the damn same missions in a arty maelstrom without T2 weapons and enjoy the game. these new torps seem to be fun .... gonna look at them once they hit TQ
girlybabe	Posted - 2007.10.30 22:05:00 - [34] Thats what torpedos are for. They are meant to kill Battleships, especially for Battleships. And most battleships in a mission are at a range of 40 km or higher. So its best to leave the torps as it is. Most people only use them for Level 4. Cruise missiles are for PVP!
Voin	Posted - 2007.10.30 23:43:00 - [35] I would like to see a reason from CCP they desided to fukc a gameplay of mission runners with Torpedo's... To those who prove a cruise, who told you, CCP 'll not cut it's in the next after next patch as well... Something wrong in headoffice with some DEV's, I believe... Curious if they changed all ranges of NPC's in all 4 lvl mission's, other way torpedo's 'll be useless in there... Try to complite mission's with Serpentis or Guristas with such a range of fire... and speed of Raven... CCP be ready for a massive quit of the game... there is a lot of new game's around novadays...
Gamesguy Amarr D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.10.31 01:22:00 - [36] Originally by: Voin I would like to see a reason from CCP they desided to fukc a gameplay of mission runners with Torpedo's... To those who prove a cruise, who told you, CCP 'll not cut it's in the next after next patch as well... Something wrong in headoffice with some DEV's, I believe... Curious if they changed all ranges of NPC's in all 4 lvl mission's, other way torpedo's 'll be useless in there... Try to complite mission's with Serpentis or Guristas with such a range of fire... and speed of Raven... CCP be ready for a massive quit of the game... there is a lot of new game's around novadays... Yes because there are legions of people using blasters and autocannons for missions. Torps are SHORT range weapons, every other race has to fit its LONG range weapons to do missions, why should caldari be different? signature removed - please email us to find out why (include a link to the image URL) - Jacques([email protected])
girlybabe	Posted - 2007.10.31 07:34:00 - [37] The difference between blasters (megathron) or torpedos (raven) in level 4 missions is that a raven doesnt use an afterburner and a megathron does. So a megathron can easily go up to a BS in distance. A raven will get killed in a Level 4 missions this way. It wont be able to do any level 4 missions again. Let the bird go.
Cyza	Posted - 2007.10.31 12:20:00 - [38] I must agree with the others whom think this is a good idea. That being said, I do believe it needs a bit of a tweak. It's quite obvious what CCP is trying to do. They're trying to do the same as they have with the other class of missiles.... I'll explain. Each class size of ship has a missile more geared towards missions and one towards PVP. Frigates have Light Missiles and Rockets while cruisers have Heavy Missiles and Heavy Assault Missiles. The PVP counterparts have much shorter range, less individual missile damage, however the rate of fire for the launcher is sufficient enough to allow them to do a significantly higher DPS. The battleship class has been without this variation since inception. I agree firmly with they're decision to gear Cruise Missiles more for missions and Torpedoes more towards PVP. There is only one small problem as I see it... they're too slow. Examining Rockets and Heavy Assault Missiles you see that they share a common speed of 2250 m/sec. The difference between the two is that Rockets have a flight time of 2 seconds (for a total base range of 4.5 km) and the Heavy Assault Missiles have a flight time of 4 seconds (for a total base range of 9 km). Torpedoes are proposed to be at 1500 m/sec with a flight time of 6 seconds (for a total base range of 9 km). Anyone else see the problem here? Can anyone else think of a medium and heavy weapon which are comparable and yet share the same range? My entire corp and I are in agreement that Torpedoes should follow suit with the rest of the assault style missiles and be increased to 2250 m/sec (for a total base range of 13.5 km). This would change maximum range (in a raven) from ~30 km to a new ~45 km. They will still follow suit as Rockets and Heavy Assault Missiles when it comes to missions.... being right at the edge of practicality for the purposes of range... and thus will not be commonly used (especially solo). This will of course have other benefits. Most notably is that the increase in speed will make them more difficult to outrun easily with an afterburner. And yes, the change from 1500 m/sec to 2250 m/sec would make a big difference in that aspect. While I'll concede that many would argue this being too far for an assault style missile, let us not forget that missiles have a flight time and do not impact instantly as turrets do. I've said my peace and I do not think this compromise is unreasonable. All I'm asking is that the new "Assault" Torpedoes follow suit with the previous assault style missiles. I like Cheese... ~Cyza
Nozomi nrvqsr Les chevaliers de l'ordre	Posted - 2007.10.31 13:38:00 - [39] Originally by: girlybabe It wont be able to do any level 4 missions again. With cruise it will be. x\|
Shmekla Gallente Lithuanians Division of Eden	Posted - 2007.10.31 14:04:00 - [40] Originally by: girlybabe Thats what torpedos are for. They are meant to kill Battleships, especially for Battleships. And most battleships in a mission are at a range of 40 km or higher. So its best to leave the torps as it is. Most people only use them for Level 4. Cruise missiles are for PVP! Sure, give a blaster, rail gun range and I'll say ok. Why we must have good dps guns but short range. It's good change, now torps will be valuable for pvp. And enough "easy mode" mission runner.
girlybabe	Posted - 2007.10.31 14:49:00 - [41] If the new torps will get a 60 km range with all level 4 skills trained for torpedos then that is good enough for me. It will be enough to run level 4's.
Cyza	Posted - 2007.10.31 14:59:00 - [42] Edited by: Cyza on 31/10/2007 14:58:54 Originally by: girlybabe If the new torps will get a 60 km range with all level 4 skills trained for torpedos then that is good enough for me. It will be enough to run level 4's. I know it's wordy... but read through my previous post. The entire point of the decrease in range, with the higher DPS, is to make them difficult to use on level 4 missions solo. I like cheese... ~Cyza
Namelesz Viscosity	Posted - 2007.10.31 15:40:00 - [43] Edited by: Namelesz on 31/10/2007 15:40:43 Originally by: girlybabe If the new torps will get a 60 km range with all level 4 skills trained for torpedos then that is good enough for me. It will be enough to run level 4's. so basically the point I am getting from all of your posts is that in order for anyone in EvE to run a level 4 mission is to only use Ravens and to only use Torps. I just want to be clear. waitaminute!! there are other options?!?!?!!? NO WAI!!!!
Dominik Flandry AB INITO	Posted - 2007.10.31 17:42:00 - [44] Well, this time CCP have little over done it. 20~ km is definitely not enougth for torpedoes. People before me said enougth smart things why this is nerfed too much. There's more than enougth situations in game when NPC is keeping his range more than 40 km and even torps damage is hardly enougth to break a tank of NPCs in a mission or in belt when ratting. You may say that it should boost teamplay, making people play together, but for me it more looks like CCP is trying to force people to use two accounts at a time to play effectively enougth. More accounts, more green i$kies? And even in PVP those new torps is still suxx. Mainly because of their speed. Why don't you nerf railed Hyperion with antimatter charges at gatecamps instead? That's a bigger problem than useless torps ATM. >_> And even with current Sisi torps Raven can't do the same damage, and, what's more important, at the same range, as other BS class ships. Correct me if i'm wrong. Why don't nerf uncatchable interdictors, especially 8 km/s Sabres, which is too overpowered because of it's hardly possible to kill ot at least avoid it? Why don't nerf warp scramblers, so they give -50% decrease in scan res of ship equipping it, so it would be even with ships fitted with warp stabs? Why nerf things that stir nobody? Anyway... I say — just give it more speed, let it fly 40 km at lvl 4 skills, and about 45~ km with perfect skills - and a lot, *A LOT MORE ppl will agree that this idea have at least some rights to live.* But untill then - they will be the least used weapon of all that is available in game. Even less used than HAMs. Amen.
Dominik Flandry AB INITO	Posted - 2007.10.31 18:30:00 - [45] And one more thing. Someone was comparing rockets to HAMs, etc... You didn't noticed one thing: rockets and HAMs are _FAST_. It's MUCH more logical to make Cruise Missiles a fast short-range damage dealers instead of slow torpedoes. .
Namelesz Viscosity	Posted - 2007.10.31 18:41:00 - [46] Edited by: Namelesz on 31/10/2007 18:43:09 I'll agree with that, the Torps should be a little faster than they are, but not much. And I disagree that HAMs are never used, those little buggers are awesome, and with the Khanid Mk2 stuff they are even more used than ever. Possibly made the Sac the new king of HACs. And to say that Torps HAVE TO reach 40km or more is just like me arguing that Blasters should reach that far too. I wish! It's all about balance, not about making 1 ship with 1 setup viable in 1 aspect of the game.
Dominik Flandry AB INITO	Posted - 2007.10.31 19:04:00 - [47] Edited by: Dominik Flandry on 31/10/2007 19:05:10 Quote: It's all about balance, not about making 1 ship with 1 setup viable in 1 aspect of the game. Do some calcs and see, how much dps and alpha does Hyperion/Mega/Tempest have at range of about 50 to 150 km with different ammo and then compare it to cruiser-fitted Raven. And you still think it's balanced?.. WTF, boost cruise missiles then, damn it!!!
Namelesz Viscosity	Posted - 2007.10.31 19:45:00 - [48] dont trust EFT numbers.
Cythrawl Caldari Central Defiance	Posted - 2007.10.31 19:48:00 - [49] Since a majority of you people are unable to get on the test server or something, this here is a comparison of torps and siege launchers as of the current build. It's been this way for atleast a week. You could have looked at the other posts and seen what the changes were. Its a good change. It just screws up lvl 4 missioning. Train those missile skills some more kids. .:. Originally by: Krazy Bitsch Originally by: Virtuality In before the first troll. i do believe you are too late for this....
Dominik Flandry AB INITO	Posted - 2007.10.31 19:49:00 - [50] I do trust my corp mates.
Cyza	Posted - 2007.10.31 21:36:00 - [51] Originally by: Dominik Flandry And one more thing. Someone was comparing rockets to HAMs, etc... You didn't noticed one thing: rockets and HAMs are _FAST_. It's MUCH more logical to make Cruise Missiles a fast short-range damage dealers instead of slow torpedoes. . Originally by: Cyza There is only one small problem as I see it... they're too slow. Examining Rockets and Heavy Assault Missiles you see that they share a common speed of 2250 m/sec. The difference between the two is that Rockets have a flight time of 2 seconds (for a total base range of 4.5 km) and the Heavy Assault Missiles have a flight time of 4 seconds (for a total base range of 9 km). Torpedoes are proposed to be at 1500 m/sec with a flight time of 6 seconds (for a total base range of 9 km). Anyone else see the problem here? Can anyone else think of a medium and heavy weapon which are comparable and yet share the same range? ~Cyza I thought I addressed it rather pointedly. Interesting you'd call them "_FAST_" when they're slower than light/heavy/cruise missiles. I like cheese... ~Cyza
Omnium Domitor Caldari ADVANCED Combat and Engineering Axiom Empire	Posted - 2007.10.31 22:18:00 - [52] Max skills on a Raven/Caracal/Flycatcher: Flycatcher Rockets: 15.1875km (FT: 3 MV: 5062.5) Ok Caracal HAMs: 30.375km (FT: 6 MV: 5062.5) 2x the distance of Rockets... not bad Raven Torps: 30.375km (FT: 9 MV: 3375) Same as the damn HAMs on a caracal. Current:()=Max Skill Modded []=Max Skill+Ship modded Rocket FT:2(3) MV:2250(3375)[5062.5]=4500(10125)[15187.5] HAM FT:4(6) MV:2250(3375)[5062.5]=9000(20250)[30375] (2x Rocket Range) Torp FT:30(45) MV:1250(1875)[2812.5]=37500(84375)[126562.5] (sticks out like a sore thumb 4x HAM range rather than 2x) Light FT:5(7.5) MV:3750(5625)[8437.5]=18750(42187.5)[63281.25] Heavy FT:10(15) MV:3750(5625)[8437.5]=37500(84375)[126562.5] (2x Light Range) Cruise FT:20(30) MV:3750(5625)[8437.5]=75000(168750)[253125] (2x Heavy Range) SiSi: Rocket FT:2(3) MV:2250(3375)[5062.5]=4500(10125)[15187.5] HAM FT:4(6) MV:2250(3375)[5062.5]=9000(20250)[30375] (2x Rocket Range) Torp FT:6(9) MV:1500(2250)[3375]=9000(20250)[30375] = HAM To make it Identical to the Light>Heavy>Cruise progression the torp would need to be: FT:8(12) MV:2250(3375)[5062.5]=18000(27000)[40500] (2x HAM Range) With Rigs, the Raven would still be viable for PvE. Using max skill modded as base: ()=1x Rocket 2x Hydraulic []=2x Rocket 1x Hydraulic SiSi: Torps: FT:9(10.35)[11.7] MV:2250(4387.24)[3881.25]=20250(45407.94)[45410.62]* Cruise: FT:30(34.5)[39] MV:5625(10968.10)[9703.12]=168750(378399.51)[378421.87]* Inline with Light/Heavy/Cruise: FT:12(14.49)[15.6] MV:3375(4387.2407882)[3881.25]=40500(63571.11)[60547.5]* +Ship FT:12(14.49)[15.6] MV:5062.5(6580.86)[5821.87]=60750(95356.67)[90821.25]* However, to get torps to fit the damage progression from Rockets to HAMs, torp damage would have to changed from 450 to 400 *Speed and Range truncated after 0.01
Cyza	Posted - 2007.10.31 22:20:00 - [53] Thanks, Omnium Domitor. This is exactly what I was trying to say with my wordy mass of a post. Just without all of the math shown. I like cheese... ~Cyza
Omnium Domitor Caldari ADVANCED Combat and Engineering Axiom Empire	Posted - 2007.10.31 22:23:00 - [54] Originally by: Cyza Thanks, Omnium Domitor. This is exactly what I was trying to say with my wordy mass of a post. Just without all of the math shown. I like cheese... ~Cyza I did this in the Gen Dis torp nerf thread, but no one ever looked at it hehe
OXU	Posted - 2007.11.01 00:42:00 - [55] All I have to say to CCP is listen to your players! DO THEY REMEMBER WHAT HAPPENED TO S.O.E. STARWARS GALAXIES when they did not listen to what their players said? Results they lost tons of players = Money and they had to close a bunch of servers. Look at where their ranking now. They once dominated the online game market by being number one. Need I say more.
Ilvan	Posted - 2007.11.01 01:13:00 - [56] Originally by: OXU All I have to say to CCP is listen to your players! DO THEY REMEMBER WHAT HAPPENED TO S.O.E. STARWARS GALAXIES when they did not listen to what their players said? Results they lost tons of players = Money and they had to close a bunch of servers. Look at where their ranking now. They once dominated the online game market by being number one. Need I say more. Shut up. This change is only bad if you're a cookie-cutter Raven mission *****. Guess what? You now have to make the same choice every other race does: damage or range.
Dominik Flandry AB INITO	Posted - 2007.11.01 09:36:00 - [57] Read this first, and only THEN try to say something about "choise". With this st on Sisi, called "torpedoes", Ravens are actually weaker compared to other ships of their class in close-range fitting. Same goes to cruise missiles - they're just weak. And guess what - Mega w/ blasters deals more damage to fast orbiting frigs, than torps can even dream about. So shut the up with comparing "sugar taste" vs. "green color". It's a DIFFERENT THINGS, damn it! Missiles was created from the beginning as totally different weapon. Like Dominix with drones, for example. Why the hell did CCP making 'em just as another clone of turrets?? Missiles != Guns !!!!**
d026 THE LEGION OF STEEL WARRIORS.... R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.11.01 10:14:00 - [58] Originally by: Dominik Flandry With this st on Sisi, called "torpedoes", Ravens are actually weaker compared to other ships of their class in close-range fitting. Missiles != Guns !!!!** lol? i just bbq'd couple of megas with my new tops. probably your setups suck..
ArmyOfMe hirr Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2007.11.01 10:53:00 - [59] i love these changes tbh. for the first time in ages my caldari alt will be doing something other then missions. I cant wait to try the raven in pvp again, its been so long since the last time i did that
bldyannoyed Un4seen Development	Posted - 2007.11.01 11:19:00 - [60] I was using a Siege Rattler for missions when the changes first appeared on sisi. Quick as flash i sold off my CN Siege before they became worthless, and used the profit from one of them to buy a Domi. I can still do lvl4's in my sleep. The new torpedoes however look like they are gonna be absolutely ***** lethal in PvP. 1000DPS @ 20km isnt hard to achieve with Tech2 Siege, and thats more damage at that range than any other ship in the game can put out. Torpedos are supposed to be anti-BS, and now they truly are. Missions have got really ** all to do with it.

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