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Matiaj
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Posted - 2007.11.01 11:48:00 -
[61]
New torps are incredibly powerful. 25+ km range is perfect for remote repping other bs with these 2 remaining high slots while not worrying much about your placement. Put some damps (and eventually 1 painter) in the meds with a light buffer armor tank (for remote repping purposes) in the lows and you've got an insanely good small-med gang BS.
And stop whining about missions already. Just train cruise and get over it.
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happomaagi
Space Perverts and Forum Warriors United
Cult of War
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Posted - 2007.11.01 13:36:00 -
[62]
 Originally by: Omnium Domitor
Max skills on a Raven/Caracal/Flycatcher:
Flycatcher Rockets: 15.1875km (FT: 3 MV: 5062.5) Ok
Caracal HAMs: 30.375km (FT: 6 MV: 5062.5) 2x the distance of Rockets... not bad
Raven Torps: 30.375km (FT: 9 MV: 3375) Same as the damn HAMs on a caracal.
I had to test this out in EFT. Tempest with 800mm AC's, Megathron with Neutron Blaster II's, Raven with T2 Siege launchers. I used all lvl 5 skills and multiplied torp damage by 1.33. Max turrets/launchers, no drones, no damage mods.
Barrage L AC's get 6km+30km optimal+falloff.
Null L Blasters get 11km+16km.
New torps with T1 ammo. 30km range as in the quote above.
DPS: AC 397, blaster 451, torps 497.
With AC's and blasters using max damage T2 ammo, Torp user will need to switch to faction torps to beat AC's and to be equal with blasters(with T1 torpedos raven will be equal with AC's and Hail).
Hail L AC range 3+10km.
Void L Blaster 4.5+13km.
Caldari Navy Torps 30km range.
DPS: AC 505, blaster 574, Faction torps 571.
To achieve these damages you would ofcourse need the dreaded target painter. One 30% painter without bonuses used at Tempest would make its sig radius to 340 * 1.3 = 442. Typhoon needs 40% painting, 450 / 320 = 1.406(torp exp rad / phoon sig rad), which equals one painter with ship bonus at lvl 4. So its pretty safe to say that one painter from any ship will give new torps max damage in most situations.
Sorry, i genuinely forgot lazors 
My conclusions: Torps will be fukken awesome.
After crunching the numbers cant really see what the fuzz is about, they will have range and damage on par with the other short range weapon systems. Even without painting they will do acceptable damage, and most importantly they will deal it to whole their range(eventually;). With painting they just about outdamage blasters.
To Omnium Domitor: 30km range is good in this category. If anything, nerf HAM range, it's ridiculous.
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Exlegion
Caldari
New Light
Hydra Alliance
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Posted - 2007.11.01 14:37:00 -
[63]
I think drones should also be put "in line" with turrets. The heavy drones should only be allowed to go no more than 20km, while the light drones can go past 100 km. Medium drones are a violation of the turret system and therefore should be scrapped completely.   .
One of us equals many of us. Disrespect one of us, you'll see plenty of us. - Guru |
Xaldor
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Posted - 2007.11.05 15:03:00 -
[64]
Edited by: Xaldor on 05/11/2007 15:05:20
Edited by: Xaldor on 05/11/2007 15:04:13
The damage values people are posting are bogus because you will need painters to do remotely close to their maximum damage even on a battleship and Caldari battleships do not get 7 or 8 mid slots like armour tanking ships get with low slots. Caldari battleships can't fit their 5 or 6 shield tank setup plus have room for a painter (to hit) and a AB/MWD or Web to have a hope in hell of being in range.
An 8 low slot armour tanker can go 6 lows for the tank, 2 for damage boosts or cap regen and still have 3 or 4 mid slots free to put the modules you need for close range combat.
One of Caldari's benefit is longer range with sensors allowing them to engage at longer range, which is offset by the their ships being slower. It is why Caldari use Railguns instead of Blasters, they have superior range. Caldari battleships pare just designed to have the close range ability, the proposed Torp is just not suited to the whole Caldari design.
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Jack Thurner
Quam Singulari
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Posted - 2007.11.05 16:09:00 -
[65]
Originally by: Xaldor
An 8 low slot armour tanker can go 6 lows for the tank, 2 for damage boosts or cap regen and still have 3 or 4 mid slots free to put the modules you need for close range combat.
Could you give me a Pulse-geddon setup for tank and gank, with AB/MWD, please? 
(tank = 2 LAR's) |
Exlegion
Caldari
New Light
Hydra Alliance
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Posted - 2007.11.05 16:16:00 -
[66]
Originally by: Jack Thurner
Originally by: Xaldor
An 8 low slot armour tanker can go 6 lows for the tank, 2 for damage boosts or cap regen and still have 3 or 4 mid slots free to put the modules you need for close range combat.
Could you give me a Pulse-geddon setup for tank and gank, with AB/MWD, please?
(tank = 2 LAR's)
You're comparing a Tier 2 battleship with a Tier 1. In all fairness the Scorpion (the Caldari Tier 1) can only tank, not gank.
One of us equals many of us. Disrespect one of us, you'll see plenty of us. - Guru |
Jack Thurner
Quam Singulari
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Posted - 2007.11.05 16:18:00 -
[67]
Edited by: Jack Thurner on 05/11/2007 16:22:18
Originally by: Exlegion
Originally by: Jack Thurner
Originally by: Xaldor
An 8 low slot armour tanker can go 6 lows for the tank, 2 for damage boosts or cap regen and still have 3 or 4 mid slots free to put the modules you need for close range combat.
Could you give me a Pulse-geddon setup for tank and gank, with AB/MWD, please?
(tank = 2 LAR's)
You're comparing a Tier 2 battleship with a Tier 1. In all fairness the Scorpion (the Caldari Tier 1) can only tank, not gank.
Could you then give me the name of a Tier 2 Battleship class thats got 8 low-slots. |
Exlegion
Caldari
New Light
Hydra Alliance
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Posted - 2007.11.05 16:27:00 -
[68]
Originally by: Jack Thurner
Could you then give me the name of a Tier 1 Battleship class thats got 8 low-slots.
Sure. The Geddon gets 8 low slots. But....
Who's talking about 8 low slot Tier 1 ships? I'm not sure how this is even relevant to what is being discussed  .
Xaldor mentioned an 8-low slot tank, as in the Apoc (since we're talking about the Raven, a Tier 2). Then you mention how the Geddon doesn't tank and gank. I tell you the Scorp can't either. Now you want me to point to you an 8-low-slot Tier 1 BS. Am I following you correctly? Cause I don't think so .
One of us equals many of us. Disrespect one of us, you'll see plenty of us. - Guru |
Jack Thurner
Quam Singulari
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Posted - 2007.11.05 16:31:00 -
[69]
Originally by: Exlegion
Originally by: Jack Thurner
Could you then give me the name of a Tier 1 Battleship class thats got 8 low-slots.
Sure. The Geddon gets 8 low slots. But....
Who's talking about 8 low slot Tier 1 ships? I'm not sure how this is even relevant to what is being discussed .
Xaldor mentioned an 8-low slot tank, as in the Apoc (since we're talking about the Raven, a Tier 2). Then you mention how the Geddon doesn't tank and gank. I tell you the Scorp can't either. Now you want me to point to you an 8-low-slot Tier 1 BS. Am I following you correctly? Cause I don't think so .
No, i'm saying that there are no Tier 2 BS's with 8 low-slots.. (ah, saw you replied to it before i updated it to ["tier 2"] ) |
Exlegion
Caldari
New Light
Hydra Alliance
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Posted - 2007.11.05 16:33:00 -
[70]
Edited by: Exlegion on 05/11/2007 16:33:20
Originally by: Jack Thurner
No, i'm saying that there are no Tier 2 BS's with 8 low-slots.. (ah, saw you replied to it before i updated it to ["tier 2"] )
Sure there is. The Apoc is 8 highs, 8 lows, and I believe 4 mids, and it's also a Tier 2.
One of us equals many of us. Disrespect one of us, you'll see plenty of us. - Guru |
Incantare
Caldari
Kernel of War
Tau Ceti Federation
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Posted - 2007.11.05 16:34:00 -
[71]
Apoc has 7 lows. But anyway the Raven has only 6 mids.
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Wolfiegoth
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Posted - 2007.11.05 16:35:00 -
[72]
Well I almost always do my Lvl 4 missions with cruises except the rare times I got blaster bananas with a hyperion.
Missions with cruises are absolutely no problem and a raven with cruises still does it quicker that a blasterboat in my experience. So I think pushing torps in line with rockets and assault missiles is perfectly reasonable. Not to mention the fact that it made no sense the Torpedos were not short ranged unguided heavy hitters in the first place. Read the torp descriptions they are supposed to be "unguided" therefore should be completely unable to hit at long ranges anyway.
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Exlegion
Caldari
New Light
Hydra Alliance
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Posted - 2007.11.05 16:37:00 -
[73]
Originally by: Incantare
Apoc has 7 lows. But anyway the Raven has only 6 mids.
True. I stand corrected.
One of us equals many of us. Disrespect one of us, you'll see plenty of us. - Guru |
Random Womble
Minmatar
Master Miners
Aftermath Alliance
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Posted - 2007.11.05 17:33:00 -
[74]
The only real problem i have with this nerf is it assumes all torp users fly a raven and so will get the boost to distance. Although its not that regular torps are still used sometimes on a typhoon (if your a minnie dread pilot you have to train torp Lv5 anyway to get cit so why not use torp launchers when flying a phoon) and unless its bonus has been altered (and it should really be 7.5% for both missile launcher and turret ROF to make it on par with every other BS Since bonus is split across 4 weapons each) the typhoon is going to end up unable to use torps (Which makes the Lv5 torps for minnie pilots useless except as a way to get somewhere) and the nightmare again im not sure how they are atm on SiSi.
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Creh Ester
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Posted - 2007.11.05 22:12:00 -
[75]
I see a lot of argument on how this torp nerf should be justified or not based upon comparisons with other weapon types. I find that kind of logic strange. Why have exact correlations? The weapons weren't concieved that way from the beginning. There's a lot of things that comes together. Not just the ship types' available slots, performance, grids, but also invested skill points and what they in the end and underway will yield you.
Torps suck in pvp. T2 torps suck even more (cause they already got nerfed badly) Why shouldn't they suck? Caldari pvp skills are EW and support. Missiles can only do credible damage against ships of a certain size. Unlike guns. Caldari ships are slow and ungainly, they can't dogfight with guns. They have weak tanks unless that is the only thing you equip. You don't get any bonus damage with standard ammo with t2 launchers, only with ammo with penalties. Differences are everwhere. And why not?
Why have 4 different races? Why have different weapon cathegories? If they are, as some seem to suggest, supposed mirror each other in properties? I mean that's ridiculous! Why have difference if it's supposed to be same? And it isn't any way. There are so many other details originally different to compensate.
Rubbish! But it does seem as if even ccp is thinking that way these days. Shrugs. But it's a big mistake. Because so many other things are tied into this. The nerf doesn't really solve any "problem". It doesn't add anything really desirable to the game. The good things that some think they can see are going to be more than offset by yet unforseen effects.
With mission and plex abilities removed, Caldari remains only as a gangking race, useless for anything else. Luckily, I got wise of ccp's changes early and decided to skill all races.
But if ccp intends to really do all things the same, they really should start to look at skill point rewards and ship grids and slots as well. ...-And it would be idiotic.
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Tibilo
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Posted - 2007.11.05 23:59:00 -
[76]
looking at happomaagi's numbers it seems the new torpedoes out damage neutron blasters. That is the heaviest damaging gun which has high cap use and low range. Also most ships that fit a full rack of them have a weak tank, maybe 1 rep and some resists. Or fit plates and hope they have the damage to kill the target before they run out of hit points.
taking a raven with the new torps. It does more damage than neutron blasters without having to sacrifice too much of its tank. It can still easily fit an xlarge shield booster and cap injector. With a 30km range it doesn't really need a mwd anymore than it did before.
The only drawback being sig radius which is easy to cope with, fit a target painter and some painter drones, where a blaster ship needs mwd and web.
raven v blasterthron could be a close enough fight as it was, now I doubt the thron has much of a chance
It just doesn't seem right that torps get to do the most damage with better range and not requiring the main ship that uses them to tank any less.
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Xaldor
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Posted - 2007.11.06 03:46:00 -
[77]
Originally by: Jack Thurner
Originally by: Xaldor
An 8 low slot armour tanker can go 6 lows for the tank, 2 for damage boosts or cap regen and still have 3 or 4 mid slots free to put the modules you need for close range combat.
Could you give me a Pulse-geddon setup for tank and gank, with AB/MWD, please?
(tank = 2 LAR's)
Low:
2xLAR II
3x EANM II
1x DC II
1x Capacitor Power Relay II
1x Co-Processor II
Med:
1x 100MN MWD II
1x Heavy Cap Booster II (800)
1x Stasis Web II
High:
7x Dual Heavy Pulse IIs
1x Heavy Diminishing NOS
Rig:
3x CCC
5x Ogre IIs
Gives you 511 dps tanking, 705dps. You can run everything other than the MWD non-stop with caps. You wouldn't want to be stuck in long engagements but that is a reasonable result with budget modules.
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