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Deschenus Maximus
Amarr
Digital Fury Corporation
Digital Renegades
   |
Posted - 2007.12.11 21:15:00 -
[91]
 Originally by: Distrans
You make one wonna train Amarr BC to 5 just to hand it over to You and your fancy faction fit even with AC fitted to an Absolution.
Anyone wanna translate that nonsense for me?
D-F-C recruitment closed |
Distrans
n0thing Inc.
|
Posted - 2007.12.11 21:18:00 -
[92]
Originally by: Deschenus Maximus
Originally by: Distrans
You make one wonna train Amarr BC to 5 just to hand it over to You and your fancy faction fit even with AC fitted to an Absolution.
Anyone wanna translate that nonsense for me?
Keep screaming
|
shinsushi
|
Posted - 2007.12.11 21:19:00 -
[93]
Originally by: Deschenus Maximus
Originally by: Distrans
You make one wonna train Amarr BC to 5 just to hand it over to You and your fancy faction fit even with AC fitted to an Absolution.
Anyone wanna translate that nonsense for me?
He wants to train BC 5, afterwhich he will buy a absolution fitted with ACs and then give it to you. Not sure if that means he likes you or not though.
An Ad Hominem is a general category of fallacies in which a claim or argument is rejected on the basis of some irrelevant fact about the author of or the person presenting the claim or argument. |
Deschenus Maximus
Amarr
Digital Fury Corporation
Digital Renegades
|
Posted - 2007.12.11 21:19:00 -
[94]
Originally by: Distrans
Originally by: Deschenus Maximus
Originally by: Distrans
You make one wonna train Amarr BC to 5 just to hand it over to You and your fancy faction fit even with AC fitted to an Absolution.
Anyone wanna translate that nonsense for me?
Keep screaming
Riiiiight...
D-F-C recruitment closed |
Deschenus Maximus
Amarr
Digital Fury Corporation
Digital Renegades
|
Posted - 2007.12.11 21:20:00 -
[95]
Originally by: shinsushi
Originally by: Deschenus Maximus
Originally by: Distrans
You make one wonna train Amarr BC to 5 just to hand it over to You and your fancy faction fit even with AC fitted to an Absolution.
Anyone wanna translate that nonsense for me?
He wants to train BC 5, afterwhich he will buy a absolution fitted with ACs and then give it to you. Not sure if that means he likes you or not though.
Why would he need to train BC 5 first though?
D-F-C recruitment closed |
shinsushi
|
Posted - 2007.12.11 21:22:00 -
[96]
Originally by: Deschenus Maximus
Originally by: shinsushi
Originally by: Deschenus Maximus
Originally by: Distrans
You make one wonna train Amarr BC to 5 just to hand it over to You and your fancy faction fit even with AC fitted to an Absolution.
Anyone wanna translate that nonsense for me?
He wants to train BC 5, afterwhich he will buy a absolution fitted with ACs and then give it to you. Not sure if that means he likes you or not though.
Why would he need to train BC 5 first though?
Delivery.
An Ad Hominem is a general category of fallacies in which a claim or argument is rejected on the basis of some irrelevant fact about the author of or the person presenting the claim or argument. |
Deschenus Maximus
Amarr
Digital Fury Corporation
Digital Renegades
|
Posted - 2007.12.11 21:23:00 -
[97]
Originally by: shinsushi
Originally by: Deschenus Maximus
Originally by: shinsushi
Originally by: Deschenus Maximus
Originally by: Distrans
You make one wonna train Amarr BC to 5 just to hand it over to You and your fancy faction fit even with AC fitted to an Absolution.
Anyone wanna translate that nonsense for me?
He wants to train BC 5, afterwhich he will buy a absolution fitted with ACs and then give it to you. Not sure if that means he likes you or not though.
Why would he need to train BC 5 first though?
Delivery.
Ah! Fair enough. Well, I will gladly accept any gift in form of Absolutions, wether fitted with ACs or Lasers (would prefer with lasers, but I can buy them and use the ACs on a Minnie ship).
D-F-C recruitment closed |
Madla Mafia
The Dead Man's Hand
|
Posted - 2007.12.11 21:25:00 -
[98]
Originally by: VJ Maverick
Originally by: Xequecal
Edited by: Xequecal on 01/11/2007 21:36:46
Note that this is 136.5 DPS at OPTIMAL. You won't be at optimal. You will be into falloff and do substantially less than this.
EDIT: What do you mean the "missiles won't hit?" Nano-sac is faster than you, that means it can web you.
A Sleipnir's fall off is quite extensive. Thus a Sleipnir can hit the Sac outside of the Sac's HAM's. And the closer the Sac comes, the more damage the Sleipnir does. Furthermore, a nano-sac compromises its tank, whereas a nano-sleipnir does not. That's why in real world practical applications, the Sleipnir will be faster than the sac, and if it isn't, then the Sac's tank will not be able to hold up to the Sleip's DPS where as the Sleip's will easily tank 5 HAM's.
You two, get on Sisi and test it out. Then continue talking...
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Amarr - getting screwed since 2005. |
Gavri
The Republican Guard
Zenith Affinity
|
Posted - 2007.12.11 21:27:00 -
[99]
Deschenus Maximus, that test I did was a static one, I had web on him and was at my optimal. He won hands down, truly no contest. His armor did not drop below 70% the entire fight and my damage on him was ravaged by his high resists. Astarte is a good gunboat, but in 1v1s against other cs is a gamble... This excludes noobish cs pilots, ofc.
Moral of the story, don't solo a cs, bring friends :) |
Deschenus Maximus
Amarr
Digital Fury Corporation
Digital Renegades
|
Posted - 2007.12.11 21:34:00 -
[100]
Originally by: Gavri
Deschenus Maximus, that test I did was a static one, I had web on him and was at my optimal. He won hands down, truly no contest. His armor did not drop below 70% the entire fight and my damage on him was ravaged by his high resists. Astarte is a good gunboat, but in 1v1s against other cs is a gamble... This excludes noobish cs pilots, ofc.
Moral of the story, don't solo a cs, bring friends :)
I'd be interested to know what his fit was, and what yours was. When I tried it, I got beaten so badly it wasn't even funny.
D-F-C recruitment closed |
Gavri
The Republican Guard
Zenith Affinity
|
Posted - 2007.12.11 22:17:00 -
[101]
Unfortunately, I completely neglected to ask him what his setup was  Mine was standard ion blaster, cap injected, dual repper setup.
I think I have to agree with a previous poster that the other cs might be more forgiving than abso (and damnation?) at lower skill levels (ie. not max). That would explain why at high skills levels, an abso rapes astarte but not at common skill levels... |
Ruah Piskonit
Amarr
PIE Inc.
|
Posted - 2007.12.12 09:37:00 -
[102]
Originally by: Gavri
Unfortunately, I completely neglected to ask him what his setup was Mine was standard ion blaster, cap injected, dual repper setup.
I think I have to agree with a previous poster that the other cs might be more forgiving than abso (and damnation?) at lower skill levels (ie. not max). That would explain why at high skills levels, an abso rapes astarte but not at common skill levels...
Thats true for almost all Amarr ships, its just maddening how long I spend training the 'little things' to 5 (including CS5) just so I can stand toe to toe. In the end though, its more about piloting skills, I usually know within the first 30 seconds how a fight will go.
On a side note though, i will say the Damnation is a real pleasure to fly. . .the resists are better and it eliminates a lot of the DPS issues Laser Boats suffer from.
I agree with Des though, while I am not a whiner or a 'Buff Amarr' spam fan, An Amarr gun boat should never be outdamaged by a Mini boat - ever. I suppose I am paying off bad Karma from all those fun nights in a Gankadon or something. . .but I really feel that with the Absolution, I have a chance to beat most anything. . .and CSs are the only ship class I feel that way about regarding Amarr. . .
Sorry for the wall of text.
----
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Malaphar
Making Our Way to Stars
Knights Of the Southerncross
|
Posted - 2007.12.12 10:16:00 -
[103]
Originally by: Deschenus Maximus
Originally by: Malaphar
Highlights :
Max Speed = around 1300-1400 m/s = more than enough to get in optimal of ANY CS/BS/BC extremly fast!
Rezistances (EM/Kin/Expl/Therm) = 86 / 90 / 92 / 83
Average RAW DPS = 890
Can sustain everything on for almost 15 mins , with only 1 repper running Cap never ends!!
Repairs around 1000 armor every 7 secs = roughly 145 per sec,meaning RAW DPS tanked as follows (EM/Kin/Expl/Therm) : 891 / 1305 / 1668 / 708 or roughly 1039 ANY RAW DPS
Ok, first of all, your numbers are all wrong:
Top speed: 1233 m/s
Resistances (EM/Kin/Expl/Therm) = 86 / 84 / 89 / 77
Raw DPS: 637
Can sustain everything for 2m54s
Repairs exactly 720 armour every 9 secs = exactly 80 per sec, which means that the DPS you can tank is much lower than what you posted (CBA to actually do the math right now).
Oh, and you only have room for 1 Web Drone on the Abso.
Originally by: Malaphar
Beat that!
Ok:
Sleipnir
7x 425 II w/ Republic Fleet EMP (I'd use Hail normaly, but you used faction ammo, so I'll do the same)
1x HAM II w/ Caldary Navy Assault Missiles
1x 10MN MWD II
1x DG XL SB
1x Cap Booster w/800s
2x DG Invuln II
1x DCU II
3x Republic Fleet Gyros
1x PDS II
1x Anti-Kinetic Screen Solidifier
1x Core Defence Operational Solidifier
1x Web drone, 3x light ECM drones
Max Speed: 1422m/s
Resistances (EM/Kin/Expl/Therm): 86/81/85/81
Raw DPS: 734 DPS
Can only sustain everything for 33s, but that's shield tanks for you.
Repairs 825 Shields every 3.4 seconds = 242 shields/s.
So yeah, I got ya beat on everything but sustainability.
I have to admit I missed a few specs in my original thread, but that was because I hate long posts!
Now I have to do such a long post (due to the quoting) :
For 890 RAW DPS , please add the implants : +5% Damage to Medium Energy Turrets ; +5% Damage to all energy Turrets ; +5% Rate of Fire OR + 5% Tracking Speed Accuracy (don't recall exactly) implant.
For resistance calculations make sure you take in consideration Level 5 Command Ships , level 5 all Armor rezistance compensations , Level 5 Armor Warfare Specialist (+2% armor resists per level) applicable to 1-man gang if Wing Commander/Fleet Commander/ Squad Commander skill learnt.
Armor Repaired : please take into consideration the 2 necessary implant for armor repair time reduction and amount increasing and you will reach my numbers.Also make sure you calculated Repair Systems at level 5.
And one last thing : please read my specified crystals for damage! Only a beginner who thinks T2 is always better would fit Scorch or Conflagration crystals.Scorch and Conflagration crystals KILL your turrets Tracking Speed Accuracy to half or with 25%!
This means your drop your chances to hit by 25% or even 50%...and we surely do not want that!
At this point I can say that there is NO FCS out there that would pose a significant threat to a such fitted Absolution!
JMHO
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Eiskalt
Caldari Provisions
|
Posted - 2007.12.12 15:13:00 -
[104]
Still Sleipnir, then Astarte.
Btw I am always amused, that a lot of people claim the Abso has an extreme tank. Especially "the Astarte needs to do more Damage, because the Abso has a much better tank!". I wonder if any of these guys ever checked the tanking abilities of both ships. With pretty standard T2 setups thee Astarte does more raw dps AND has a slightly (almost equal though) BETTER tank than the abso (all skills 5). And it¦s more mobile... and carries more 800s charges. ;) I wonder why the Astarte costs less in Jita :p
No amount of balancing can fix playing like a moron! |
E Vile
Fifth Exiled Legion
SMASH Alliance
|
Posted - 2007.12.12 16:41:00 -
[105]
Speaking dps
Can I get someone to post numbers to compair.
1. max skills with 2 dmg mods in lows (bcu, mag stab ex..)
2. no dmg mods other then skills.
To me the nighthawk is way lower then the others when it comes to dps.
Would be nice to have a 7th launcher to bring it up to par with the others.
Don't tell me the nighthawks tank is better and thats the reason because you can dedicate all meds and lows in the others and tank just as well. I've seen all commands tank like madmen.
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Eiskalt
Caldari Provisions
|
Posted - 2007.12.12 17:24:00 -
[106]
Edited by: Eiskalt on 12/12/2007 17:25:58
Edited by: Eiskalt on 12/12/2007 17:25:21
Btw I forgot to add some numbers... I am talking about pretty standard dual rep setups on Absolution and Astarte. Dual Rep + Eanm2 + DC + specific active hardener for both.
Absolution (2 heat sinks): 710 dps, 525 tank
Astarte (1 mag stab): 762 dps, 542 tank
Faction Ammo for both. Range:
Absolution: 7.5 + 5
Astarte: 1.9 + 7.5 (ions) (2.3 + 9.4 on 2 neutrons)
So they are nearly equap on those numbers. The Advantage of the Absolution is 23+5 Range with scorch (4.7 + 9.4 / 5.6 + 12 for the Astarte with Null)... more flexibility and a med nos/neut. The Astarte is much more mobile though (MWD vs no speed mod), slightly more cargo for 800s, more damage and even slightly better tank.
Forgot to ask for a standard Sleipnir setup... with 3 gyros and X-Large Tank you get 750 dps, 744 tank (with CL-5 because of CPU/grid, faction possible of course) (not substainable for long even with a booster. With booster and cap at zero: 530 substainable). 1.5 + 15 Range with faction EMP. No Speed setup, but no Rigs fitted and one empty high slot and one empty low slot. So probably still enough room for speed as well. ;)
No amount of balancing can fix playing like a moron! |
Derek Sigres
|
Posted - 2007.12.12 18:16:00 -
[107]
I would say there have been many valid arguments posted by people with better experience than me on the subject.
However, I'd lean towards the NH in terms of it's role. It has already been pointed out that the NH is virtually immune to cap and ewar if fitted with passive tank and it is generally one of the last things targeted thanks to it's relatively low direct threat profile (i.e. removing one from the fleet does not directly decrease fleet damage much for the time expended doing so). This leave the NH free to offer up the one thing command ships are supposed to do - Link Warfare. All of the command ships are awesome, and some do the non support roles better than others. The NH however excells in anti-drone work and living long enough for it's link warfare mods to give your fleet that edge long enough to pull your bacon outta the fire. |
AnKahn
Caldari
Repo Industries
|
Posted - 2007.12.12 19:05:00 -
[108]
The Chicken and the Egg thread.
If my gang has a few CS in it (well, the people I know that fly them well, not Ebay CS pilots) and a few BS also, then I'm really sure the enemy will shoot me last in my poor Drake.
Flying a CS solo is moronic. Almost like mining in a carrier. What do you guys do, cross your fingers every time you jump thru a gate?
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Derek Sigres
|
Posted - 2007.12.12 19:14:00 -
[109]
Originally by: AnKahn
The Chicken and the Egg thread.
If my gang has a few CS in it (well, the people I know that fly them well, not Ebay CS pilots) and a few BS also, then I'm really sure the enemy will shoot me last in my poor Drake.
Flying a CS solo is moronic. Almost like mining in a carrier. What do you guys do, cross your fingers every time you jump thru a gate?
I hold a wake in advance in order to mourn the future loss my ship. . .
|
Karash Amerius
Evolution
Band of Brothers
|
Posted - 2007.12.12 19:41:00 -
[110]
From my experience any Minnie T2 ship generally owns an Amarr T2 ship. The natural resists are really problematic. The Sac is one of the first ships to get around this.
"Fighting Broke" - An Ex-Merc Blog |
E Vile
Fifth Exiled Legion
SMASH Alliance
|
Posted - 2007.12.12 21:19:00 -
[111]
Edited by: E Vile on 12/12/2007 21:20:34
Originally by: Derek Sigres
I would say there have been many valid arguments posted by people with better experience than me on the subject.
However, I'd lean towards the NH in terms of it's role. It has already been pointed out that the NH is virtually immune to cap and ewar if fitted with passive tank and it is generally one of the last things targeted thanks to it's relatively low direct threat profile (i.e. removing one from the fleet does not directly decrease fleet damage much for the time expended doing so). This leave the NH free to offer up the one thing command ships are supposed to do - Link Warfare. All of the command ships are awesome, and some do the non support roles better than others. The NH however excells in anti-drone work and living long enough for it's link warfare mods to give your fleet that edge long enough to pull your bacon outta the fire.
No the Nighthawk sucks for war links. It's got a big lack of powergrid. The Vulture is what you want to fill that role. 3 links. Lots of grid. Even better tank. The vulture is horrid on DPS but it fills the fleet support war link role as well or better then any ship in it's class.
Thanks for the numbers responses, as it shows to me even more the nighthawk is out of line. As for passive being the arguement. Believe it or not you can passive tank a sleipnir very well also (projectiles also use no cap).
To have any decent passive tank that compairs to the other commands tanks you need to run all Med and low slots for tank. No scram/web/mwd No BCU. I feel the nighthawk at least needs a 7th launcher slot to bring it closer to the dps of the others.
Nighthawk is a FIELD command JUST LIKE the Abso/astart/sleip. It is supposed to fill the same role as these, and does so poorly other then being a ship less likely to be called primary.
By the way, people say they hate the fact Amarr does only em, it also sucks having the nighthawks dmg bonus only for kinetic. Why do Khanid Amarr ships get missle bonus for all types when the missle specialists Caldari are less effective?
WTF? Lowest dps AND only 1 type dmg or you go even Lower into pathetic dps numbers for a field command ship.
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Deschenus Maximus
Amarr
Digital Fury Corporation
Digital Renegades
|
Posted - 2007.12.13 02:37:00 -
[112]
Originally by: Malaphar
I have to admit I missed a few specs in my original thread, but that was because I hate long posts!
Now I have to do such a long post (due to the quoting) :
For 890 RAW DPS , please add the implants : +5% Damage to Medium Energy Turrets ; +5% Damage to all energy Turrets ; +5% Rate of Fire OR + 5% Tracking Speed Accuracy (don't recall exactly) implant.
For resistance calculations make sure you take in consideration Level 5 Command Ships , level 5 all Armor rezistance compensations , Level 5 Armor Warfare Specialist (+2% armor resists per level) applicable to 1-man gang if Wing Commander/Fleet Commander/ Squad Commander skill learnt.
Armor Repaired : please take into consideration the 2 necessary implant for armor repair time reduction and amount increasing and you will reach my numbers.Also make sure you calculated Repair Systems at level 5.
And one last thing : please read my specified crystals for damage! Only a beginner who thinks T2 is always better would fit Scorch or Conflagration crystals.Scorch and Conflagration crystals KILL your turrets Tracking Speed Accuracy to half or with 25%!
This means your drop your chances to hit by 25% or even 50%...and we surely do not want that!
At this point I can say that there is NO FCS out there that would pose a significant threat to a such fitted Absolution!
JMHO
Unless, well, I used the same implant types with the Sleipnir fit I described.
D-F-C recruitment closed |
Miss KillSome
Caldari
School of Applied Knowledge
|
Posted - 2007.12.13 08:56:00 -
[113]
if u guys are talking about best SOLO ship, then all shield tankers are obsolete, coz for solo, u need mwd, point and web fitted, with cap injector ofc. That leaves 3 slot shield tank, which is not good at all.
As far as a gang is concerned, where there are dedicated tacklers, be advised, that even astarte can fill its mids with two EW slots, let it be tracking disruptors or even ECM, coz it doesnt need point and scram.
So according to this "reveal" i say, that sleip is not as good in solo action as somebody say. It can tank, it is fast and it can dish out nice dps, but what does that help, if any smart person would just warp away when he sees that sleip is kiting him and not scraming. Astarte comes in play here more, coz he has free mids to fit those have-to-have modules for solo PvP.
As for gang, with tacklers, sleip is again the short one. Sure, it can tank, but what does that help, if astarte hits him with dual tracking distruptors?
At the end, its all about fittings, omni tanks vs specialized tanks, tactics and your gang.
No ships is better then other (except that eos is worst in its class:) ).
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Eiskalt
Caldari Provisions
|
Posted - 2007.12.13 17:53:00 -
[114]
Sleipnir can fit a disruptor instead of a amp2 e.g. and the tank is still stronger than Abso/Astarte as long as it has cap. My setup had a cap booster fitted anyways.
No amount of balancing can fix playing like a moron! |
J Valkor
Blackguard Brigade
|
Posted - 2007.12.13 23:04:00 -
[115]
Originally by: Miss KillSome
No ships is better then other (except that eos is worst in its class:) ).
Eos is a fleet command ship.
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