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Rigs and and ships for free?

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ChimeraRouge Caldari Eve University Ivy League	Posted - 2007.11.03 19:25:00 - [1] My corp mates are telling me that they get rigs and ships for free by manufacturing them from salvage and minerals they get from missions that they save in their hangers. Sometimes I see them in belts for hours mining ore for stuff. I sell my salvage/loot on the market instead of using it to produce. They say I'm doing it all wrong. How is this free stuff possible?
Sleepkevert Rionnag Alba Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.11.03 19:27:00 - [2] Soooo, you buy stuff from the money you get from the salvage / whatever. And they build stuff from it. No diffrence really, but you get to buy stuff without buying blueprints for it, and training up manufacture skills.. Sign my sig
Jenny Spitfire Caldari	Posted - 2007.11.03 19:28:00 - [3] Free as in not using your wallet to buy. It is not free as in not wasting your time to procure. --------- Technica impendi Caldari generis. Pax Caldaria! Kali is for KArebearLIng. I 100% agree with Avon. Female EVE gamers? Mail Zajo or visit WGOE.Public in-game.
CrayC Gallente CrayC Inc.	Posted - 2007.11.03 19:28:00 - [4] You said it yourself: They mine their stuff, making it, at least isk-wise, free. The time they spend doing it, could be better spent making raw isk, but each to their own
Kazuo Ishiguro House of Marbles Zzz	Posted - 2007.11.03 19:29:00 - [5] Well, it's a matter of relative value. If they think the time they took to salvage all the required materials is worthless, then as far as they're concerned, what they get from looting is free. My research services Spreadsheets: Top speed calculation - Halo Implant stats
Haks'he Lirky Dominion Imperium	Posted - 2007.11.03 19:31:00 - [6] if they are getting their ships/equipment for free then you are getting your isk for free. same end result.
Tek'a Rain Gallente Phoenix Logistics Industries	Posted - 2007.11.03 19:31:00 - [7] as the industry folks will arrive and tell us.. simply.. Mining Does Not Make Something Free. Minerals From Loot Are Not Free. Datacores Are Not Free. the reasons are many, of course. try this post over in Industry forums and see what happens.
Zilkin Murder-Death-Kill	Posted - 2007.11.03 19:34:00 - [8] Opportunity cost
SoftRevolution	Posted - 2007.11.03 19:50:00 - [9] Ask them if they'll give you any kind of discount on whatever it is you fly
Tamia Clant New Dawn Corp New Eden Research	Posted - 2007.11.03 19:51:00 - [10] Originally by: Zilkin Opportunity cost Beat me to it. Looking for queue-free research slots? Click here!
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2007.11.03 20:00:00 - [11] I see most of the reply here are very calm. My reaction to this kind of statement is turning Amarr, gather a mob with pitforks and lasers and burn the heretics .
Vajak Caldari	Posted - 2007.11.03 20:02:00 - [12] It's actually possible that they are paying more for their stuff by making it themself. Let's see eg. they need 100 components to build the item and then use it themselfs. In this case they lose the opportunity of selling the 100 components or the potential profit of selling the item they have built. Now let's see it from the "professional" manufacturers point of view. They only need 80 components to build the same item because of skills and researched bpo. Now lets assume 1 component is worth 1 isk and the manufacturer wants 15% profit for their product. So it would be priced at 95isk. Now which would be better to sell the components for 100 isk and buy the product they want want for 95 isk or build it yourself ?
ChimeraRouge Caldari Eve University Ivy League	Posted - 2007.11.03 20:34:00 - [13] thanks guys. so you guys are pretty much stating that selling your own salvage/loot is more profitable hourly then producing and selling your own T1 components for newer players?
Fracking Beach	Posted - 2007.11.03 20:40:00 - [14] Originally by: ChimeraRouge thanks guys. so you guys are pretty much stating that selling your own salvage/loot is more profitable hourly then producing and selling your own T1 components for newer players? Yes, same goes for refining and building. If you mine and don't have the skills to refine good enough - selling raw ore gives more money than refining + loosing a lot in process.
Jurgen Cartis Caldari Interstellar Corporation of Exploration	Posted - 2007.11.03 22:04:00 - [15] Originally by: Venkul Mul I see most of the reply here are very calm. My reaction to this kind of statement is turning Amarr, gather a mob with pitforks and lasers and burn the heretics . A pitchfork mob against opportunity cost deniers? Where do I sign up? -------------------- ICE Blueprint Sales FIRST!! -Yipsilanti Pfft. Never such a thing as a "last chance". ;) -Rauth
Selene D'Celeste Caldari The D'Celeste Estate	Posted - 2007.11.03 22:14:00 - [16] I used to think that the ole "Things I mine/salvage are free" argument was an urban legend and no one actually did this. Then I got to know more people. Sigh. Props to the OP though for actually asking, and not being a troll about the topic either. I don't think I've seen that one before.
hydraSlav Synergy Evolved Daisho Syndicate	Posted - 2007.11.03 22:43:00 - [17] Originally by: Jurgen Cartis Originally by: Venkul Mul I see most of the reply here are very calm. My reaction to this kind of statement is turning Amarr, gather a mob with pitforks and lasers and burn the heretics . A pitchfork mob against opportunity cost deniers? Where do I sign up? Sign me up too. Every time someone says they get "free" mineral by mining it themselves, a kitten dies. Save the kittens! == Above comments are my personal views Oveur >Local shouldn't be a tactical tool, it's for chat
Fehnrail Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2007.11.03 22:47:00 - [18] There is no free lunch. ...I am a part of all that I have met, Yet all experience is an arch wherethro' Shines that untravell'd world, whose margin fades For ever and for ever as I move...
Altaree Red Frog Investments Blue Sky Consortium	Posted - 2007.11.03 22:52:00 - [19] I love the people who think things they get from missions and mining are free. I can buy it CHEAP!!! WOO WOO!!! And then sell it to lazy mission runners who won't go 4 jumps to get ammo. Also, don't forget that every production slot you use to make something for yourself is a production slot you aren't using to make something worth more than you could sell the materials for...
Taedrin Gallente Magellan Exploration and Survey Rare Faction	Posted - 2007.11.03 23:05:00 - [20] Well, There Is No Such Thing As A Free Lunch. That said, there are other things to consider. Raw ISK-wise, it might be more efficient for them to sell their salvage and buy a rig from someone with good manufacturing skills. Time-wise, this may not be all that good, since in order to sell your salvage at the optimum price, you must take the salvage to a region with a strong market. If your base is in low sec, then hauling that stuff is risky. Then you must wait for someone to purchase them from you (or find an appropriate buy order). Selling salvage/minerals then buying the desired item is not necessarily better than making it yourself - even if you have poor manufacturing skills. At best, you save yourself a couple million ISK by having a professional make your items. If it takes you a couple hours making arrangements to make that happen, your time might be better spent running more missions, and building the items yourself.
Acoco Osiris Gallente Sublime.	Posted - 2007.11.03 23:49:00 - [21] Originally by: ChimeraRouge thanks guys. so you guys are pretty much stating that selling your own salvage/loot is more profitable hourly then producing and selling your own T1 components for newer players? Depends on the market. There are some things which are so overpriced that self-manufacture is a good idea. See: Rigs, T2 drones (Hammerhead IIs are about 1,000% of manufacture cost), anything in an isolated market, and anything in Jita. ------------------------------ One more soldier off to war... And one Velator in my hangars.
Cygnus Zhada Amarr Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2007.11.03 23:54:00 - [22] Originally by: ChimeraRouge My corp mates are telling me that they get rigs and ships for free by manufacturing them from salvage and minerals they get from missions that they save in their hangers. Sometimes I see them in belts for hours mining ore for stuff. I sell my salvage/loot on the market instead of using it to produce. They say I'm doing it all wrong. How is this free stuff possible? They're wrong, you're right. Even though they didn't PAY for the minerals/salvage it still represents a monetary value. If you sell them you get cash, as such USING them isn't free at all; you used up goods that have a value, thus not free. It's a common misconception and the funny part is that the people who insist on the goods being 'for free' are very difficult to persuade otherwise. It's best to nod at them, smile and back off. Don't forget to ask them for a bargain for whatever they're selling, as they got them for free and thus make 100% profit they might as well give you 30% off... Welcome to EVE Online: Press 1 for Caldari, PVE Online Press 2 for Minmatar, PVP Online Press 3 for Gallente, PWN Online Press 4 for Amarr, Lulz Online
Cygnus Zhada Amarr Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2007.11.03 23:56:00 - [23] Originally by: ChimeraRouge thanks guys. so you guys are pretty much stating that selling your own salvage/loot is more profitable hourly then producing and selling your own T1 components for newer players? (sorry for the double post, was too lazy to read it all :/ ) Yes, most of the time you're better off letting OTHERS do the hard work while you make a good (if not the most) profit. Also because since THEY think they got their good for free and YOU are a tad smarter they will always be able undercut your prices. Welcome to EVE Online: Press 1 for Caldari, PVE Online Press 2 for Minmatar, PVP Online Press 3 for Gallente, PWN Online Press 4 for Amarr, Lulz Online
hydraSlav Synergy Evolved Daisho Syndicate	Posted - 2007.11.04 01:27:00 - [24] Originally by: Cygnus Zhada Don't forget to ask them for a bargain for whatever they're selling, as they got them for free and thus make 100% profit they might as well give you 30% off... LOL, best thing to do: exploit the stupid == Above comments are my personal views Oveur >Local shouldn't be a tactical tool, it's for chat
Ryoji Tanakama Caldari Daikoku Fleet Shipyards	Posted - 2007.11.04 01:34:00 - [25] Originally by: ChimeraRouge My corp mates are telling me that they get rigs and ships for free by manufacturing them from salvage and minerals they get from missions that they save in their hangers. Sometimes I see them in belts for hours mining ore for stuff. I sell my salvage/loot on the market instead of using it to produce. They say I'm doing it all wrong. How is this free stuff possible? It's not free. If that rig costs 8 mil worth of salvage, then they have effectively paid 8 million isk for that rig, it's 8 million in profit that they would have had. In some cases this could be false economy, as you have a surplus of some salvage that could account for any markup on the items anyway. Sings and roundabouts is the term that comes to mind. The chances are that unless your production operation is highly efficient, you'll not be saving money. ~Ryoji Tanakama Daikoku Fleet Shipyards
tucK vaeL Minmatar Extreme Addiction Atrum Tempestas Foedus	Posted - 2007.11.04 03:00:00 - [26] Originally by: Vajak It's actually possible that they are paying more for their stuff by making it themself. Let's see eg. they need 100 components to build the item and then use it themselfs. In this case they lose the opportunity of selling the 100 components or the potential profit of selling the item they have built. Now let's see it from the "professional" manufacturers point of view. They only need 80 components to build the same item because of skills and researched bpo. Now lets assume 1 component is worth 1 isk and the manufacturer wants 15% profit for their product. So it would be priced at 95isk. Now which would be better to sell the components for 100 isk and buy the product they want want for 95 isk or build it yourself ? This analogy fails. If they only need 80 components to build the item, then they would only need to get the 80 components. Therefore, they are selling the end product at 95isk/80components. Which gives a 15isk profit on the 80 components, and if they did have 100 components, they can sell the remaining 20 unused components for another 20isk.
Cygnus Zhada Amarr Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2007.11.04 03:05:00 - [27] Originally by: tucK vaeL Originally by: Vajak It's actually possible that they are paying more for their stuff by making it themself. Let's see eg. they need 100 components to build the item and then use it themselfs. In this case they lose the opportunity of selling the 100 components or the potential profit of selling the item they have built. Now let's see it from the "professional" manufacturers point of view. They only need 80 components to build the same item because of skills and researched bpo. Now lets assume 1 component is worth 1 isk and the manufacturer wants 15% profit for their product. So it would be priced at 95isk. Now which would be better to sell the components for 100 isk and buy the product they want want for 95 isk or build it yourself ? This analogy fails. If they only need 80 components to build the item, then they would only need to get the 80 components. Therefore, they are selling the end product at 95isk/80components. Which gives a 15isk profit on the 80 components, and if they did have 100 components, they can sell the remaining 20 unused components for another 20isk. Note where he says 'professional'. A starting manufacturer will always have more waste than a 'pro'. The 'pro' guy will base his selling price on HIS mats use (IE 80) and THUS sell for 80 plus profit so prolly for 95 or so. If the starter wants to make it he will have to use 100 isk mats. In essence the starter will have a higher mats price than the selling pric for the 'pro'. As such it's cheaper to just sell the mats and then buy the end product with the money made. Welcome to EVE Online: Press 1 for Caldari, PVE Online Press 2 for Minmatar, PVP Online Press 3 for Gallente, PWN Online Press 4 for Amarr, Lulz Online
Lisento Slaven Amarr Capitalism Amuck	Posted - 2007.11.04 03:06:00 - [28] Originally by: Zilkin Opportunity cost I'm quoting this because the thread should have ended at this point. --- Put in space whales!
Cygnus Zhada Amarr Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2007.11.04 03:08:00 - [29] Originally by: Lisento Slaven Originally by: Zilkin Opportunity cost I'm quoting this because the thread should have ended at this point. True but it's a wall of text for most people, and it takes effort. (said in a whiney voice). Welcome to EVE Online: Press 1 for Caldari, PVE Online Press 2 for Minmatar, PVP Online Press 3 for Gallente, PWN Online Press 4 for Amarr, Lulz Online
Siege Minmatar Siegecraft Bounty Hunting	Posted - 2007.11.04 03:12:00 - [30] Simple version; They may not be spending ISK to get their stuff, but they are still expending effort. They are just dealing with a different commodity, time. And in a given amount of time, they probably end up with less finished goods than proper manufacturing. Terrible efficiency to say the least. But meh, as long as they are enjoying it. ------ begin signature ----- Little known Eve fact, The original race names were: Amarr Empire, Caldar Empire, Minmatar Republic, The Jovians, and The Remanaquie Federation.
Shakuul Caldari O RLY corp YTMND.	Posted - 2007.11.04 07:53:00 - [31] Originally by: ChimeraRouge My corp mates are telling me that they get rigs and ships for free by manufacturing them from salvage and minerals they get from missions that they save in their hangers. Sometimes I see them in belts for hours mining ore for stuff. I sell my salvage/loot on the market instead of using it to produce. They say I'm doing it all wrong. How is this free stuff possible? They are completely wrong. The only thing they save by making the salvage it themselves is some portion of the bid/ask spread and the trip to Jita. The trit (or any input) you use to build ships in empire is worth ~3.3 isk per unit (or whatever) regardless of where you obtained it.
Amarria Black Clan Anthraxx	Posted - 2007.11.04 08:02:00 - [32] Originally by: Jurgen Cartis Originally by: Venkul Mul I see most of the reply here are very calm. My reaction to this kind of statement is turning Amarr, gather a mob with pitforks and lasers and burn the heretics . A pitchfork mob against opportunity cost deniers? Where do I sign up? Put me down as well for two pitchforks, a torch, and a page to carry my spare pitchfork. I have to restrain myself from screaming every time I see someone list products below material cost.
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2007.11.04 08:04:00 - [33] Originally by: Amarria Black I have to restrain myself from screaming every time I see someone list products below material cost. Scream ? For JOY, I hope. The more peons to exploit, the bigger the wallet gets. You see, for smart (and mildly wealthy) people, there is such a thing as "a free lunch" _ 1\|2\|3
Amarria Black Clan Anthraxx	Posted - 2007.11.04 08:07:00 - [34] Originally by: Akita T Originally by: Amarria Black I have to restrain myself from screaming every time I see someone list products below material cost. Scream ? For JOY, I hope. The more peons to exploit, the bigger the wallet gets. You see, for smart (and mildly wealthy) people, there is such a thing as "a free lunch" It sucks hard for the members of my corp who I aid in doing the manufacture thing. For me, not so much.
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2007.11.04 08:15:00 - [35] I have this unwritten rule of never manufacturing anything that's not already profitable to sell to an existing buy order... then selling it via sell orders, of course ... ... Yeah, I don't manufacture much, just because of that _ 1\|2\|3
Dred'Pirate Jesus Amarr Ministry of War	Posted - 2007.11.04 08:26:00 - [36] Screw all that complicated econobabel.. I simply buy low and sell high and let bulk commodities take care of the profits.. Originally by: David Hackworth ò If you find yourself in a fair fight, you didn't plan your mission properly.
Jurgen Cartis Caldari Interstellar Corporation of Exploration	Posted - 2007.11.04 15:34:00 - [37] Originally by: Akita T I have this unwritten rule of never manufacturing anything that's not already profitable to sell to an existing buy order... then selling it via sell orders, of course ... ... Yeah, I don't manufacture much, just because of that I have a similar one: Never manufacture what wouldn't be profitable off an unresearched BPO. Then use an ME 15-25 BPO, depending on my mood when I throw it into the lab. -------------------- ICE Blueprint Sales FIRST!! -Yipsilanti Pfft. Never such a thing as a "last chance". ;) -Rauth
Adunh Slavy KIA Corp KIA Alliance	Posted - 2007.11.04 15:36:00 - [38] Time == ISK -AS The Real Space Initiative
Reem Fairchild Minmatar Republic University	Posted - 2007.11.04 15:57:00 - [39] It's not just that time = isk. No matter how they got the salvage materials or minerals (even if they get them without spending any time or effort), the materials/minerals have a set value on the market. X amount of salvage materials that can be sold on the market for y amount of ISK = Y amount of ISK. There is no real difference between the two. Each one is easily exchanged for the other on the market. So, they're not getting ships and rigs for free. They just don't realize that minerals from reprocessing loot and materials from salvaging wrecks are just as much ISK earned as are bounties and other kinds of payments that go straight into their wallets as currency.
Bosie Veto Corp	Posted - 2007.11.04 16:36:00 - [40] It's like the guys I kill who claim I made them ISK as they now have more ISK than they did before the fight... "There is a forgotten, nay almost forbidden word, which means more to me than any other. That word is ENGLAND

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