| Pages: 1 2 3 :: [one page] |
| Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 0 post(s) |
Kaylana Syi
Stimulus
   |
Posted - 2007.11.05 22:54:00 -
[1]
Edited by: Kaylana Syi on 05/11/2007 22:57:21
Edited by: Kaylana Syi on 05/11/2007 22:56:47
Hello,
For some time now the Nidhoggur and Thanatos have been a bit lack luster. I fly them both on seperate accounts and have pretty much mastered them training wise. I've been using carriers since shortly after their release.
While I feel the Nidhoggur is in far dire of situation they both share similar fates of the unspectacular tanking. The Chimera has 8 effective midslots with a 7 slot effective tank. The Archon also shares this trait because it has 8 effective lowslots.
The Nidhoggur in all realistic setups has a eratic tank profile. Even though it has 6 mids only 5 of those are realistic for tanking since a sensor booster is pretty much a requirement. Similarly to the shield tanking, the lowslots give it an armor tank of 5 lows. Now this has been addressed with SISI updates giving the Niddy a 6th low for a 5th mid. This makes th Niddy very similar to the Thanatos. Both having a 6 lowslot tank after the changes and 5 mids.
I do say however that this is really suboptimal. I ask CCP to please consider changing the Niddy back to a 6/5 and give it a shield boost bonus and giving it 100 more CPU. This will allow it to have a 6 midslot tank ( 5 physical + bonus with Sensor booster ) but also the ability to use 4 PDSs + damage control to give it a different performance profile than the Chimera.
Furthermore, I ask that the Thanatos be given a Armor Repair amount bonus in place of the Fighter Damage bonus as well as an increase to 130k armor base.
This way the Nidhoggur and Thanatos can compete with their brotheren but maintain some racial distinctiveness for tanking while using their ship stats/slots to improve capacitor performance over the Chimera and Archon.
This might further increase demand for training Triage modes as well since all the races would have a tank bonus to empower them to be centerpieces of smaller gangs. Right now, even though they are capitals they just don't add up wholistically to their counter parts even if they have situational niche bonuses. I feel to even consider using remote repping you either have to have a ship that can exploit the maximum amount of capacitor for both remote and personal repping or be in a large circle jerk. There must be balance.
Team Minmatar
|
Elmicker
Black Sea Industries
Cult of War
|
Posted - 2007.11.05 23:05:00 -
[2]
/signed.
|
Jinmie
|
Posted - 2007.11.05 23:06:00 -
[3]
Edited by: Jinmie on 05/11/2007 23:07:39
The fact that the disparity in just basic T2 tanks between the Nid / Thana vs Chimera / Archon is a whopping 1k dps supports this argument.
Fighters don't do much damage and according to CCPs logic they don't want Carriers to be much of a damage dealer, the Thanatos 20% average bonus that most pilots have is woefully underpowered compared to a 33% increased in tanking that the resist bonus carriers have.
If a T2 Thanatos could have a 4k Tank with 2 reps, 3 Hardeners II and a Damage control or EANM II it would be great, +20 dps to 10 Fighters isn't very special, it's still Gank Blasterthron damage all added up anyway.
I would use Triage if this was the case, as it stands a Thanatos in Triage is a lower dps capital tank with all its crappy bonus wasted.
|
Thrawnfl
|
Posted - 2007.11.05 23:26:00 -
[4]
There isnt anything wrong with the Thanatos, its just fine the way it is. I'd rather have the fighter bonus than anything else.
|
Samurai XII
|
Posted - 2007.11.05 23:35:00 -
[5]
If anything Thanatos and Nid are better carriers.
What matters in a carrier: Being able to rep others with armor and shield.
It's true that the Chimera and Archon have better tanks, BUT, a Chimera cap regen sucks so much it will just die as soon its out of cap. And the archon is more or less in the same boat. Oh and you can't even fit the Chimera properly thanks to the amount of CPU need from capital shield modules. :(
______________________
Just another cool alt. |
bldyannoyed
Un4seen Development
|
Posted - 2007.11.05 23:55:00 -
[6]
 Originally by: Samurai XII
If anything Thanatos and Nid are better carriers.
What matters in a carrier: Being able to rep others with armor and shield.
It's true that the Chimera and Archon have better tanks, BUT, a Chimera cap regen sucks so much it will just die as soon its out of cap. And the archon is more or less in the same boat. Oh and you can't even fit the Chimera properly thanks to the amount of CPU need from capital shield modules. :(
And just how do you figure that the Archon has a worse cap problem than than the Thanatos? The Thanny has has effectivley TWO less low slots compared to an archon to tank with, and a fighter bonus that doesnt apply once it has delegated its fighters.
Realistically, the Archon and Thanny are both gonna fit dual rep tanks, and the Archon is gonna have bette resists and potentially better cap as a CPR gives a greater recharge boost than Cap Charger.
|
Random Womble
Minmatar
Master Miners
Aftermath Alliance
|
Posted - 2007.11.06 00:15:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Samurai XII
If anything Thanatos and Nid are better carriers.
What matters in a carrier: Being able to rep others with armor and shield.
It's true that the Chimera and Archon have better tanks, BUT, a Chimera cap regen sucks so much it will just die as soon its out of cap. And the archon is more or less in the same boat. Oh and you can't even fit the Chimera properly thanks to the amount of CPU need from capital shield modules. :(
Firstly the nids bonus does not work out as better than a res bonus since if you have those extra res the benifit both from local and remote repping while the remote repping bonus only boost one plus you wont have an all nid gang which means the nids suffer even more. Best carrier is the archon then the chimera.
As for the CPU on the chimera as stated again and again you have more CPU now than the HEL the minmatar mothership yet the HEL has the same number of mid slots 1 more low AND 1 more high. The nid again is meant to be a shield tanker or was how it will be after the patch i dont know and it has 125 less cpu than the chimera thats 1 less midslot (on TQ) and yet about 2-3 midslots worth of CPU comparitatively you really have nothing to moan about with regards to CPU.
The Shield boost ammount bonus and rep ammount bonus that the op is im assuming suggesting would be intresting but would have little effect in a spider tank personally im happy with the nids bonus just about however I am of his veiwpoint that the minnie carrier should be restored to it previous slot layout and given a sizable boost to CPU (100 as suggested would be about right since thats 25 less than the chimera and thats about the diffrence in cpu needs between a shield mod and a PDU II). Some increase in tanking would be nice because the slot layout now favours the carriers with resistance bonuses (if they had either the bonuses or slot layouts switched it would be very balanced but not going to happen).
so in conclusion /signed with regards to nid 100 cpu 5/6/5 slot layout
|
Takita Yukida
Quo Vadis Domine
|
Posted - 2007.11.06 00:17:00 -
[8]
the funny thing is: the nid got the +1 lowslot, the hel didn't 
|
Jinmie
|
Posted - 2007.11.06 00:19:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Samurai XII
If anything Thanatos and Nid are better carriers.
What matters in a carrier: Being able to rep others with armor and shield.
It's true that the Chimera and Archon have better tanks, BUT, a Chimera cap regen sucks so much it will just die as soon its out of cap. And the archon is more or less in the same boat. Oh and you can't even fit the Chimera properly thanks to the amount of CPU need from capital shield modules. :(
Chimera can have a 4k+ tank and loads more cap regen than it needs if you know how to fit and don't just use PDUs.
|
Random Womble
Minmatar
Master Miners
Aftermath Alliance
|
Posted - 2007.11.06 00:31:00 -
[10]
Edited by: Random Womble on 06/11/2007 00:31:48
Originally by: Takita Yukida
the funny thing is: the nid got the +1 lowslot, the hel didn't
Hel is meant to be shield tanked as is the nid really, all the motherships gain one tanking slot over there carrier counterparts, wyvern gets 8 mids aeon 8 lows nyx 7 lows and the hel 7 mids except now thanks to ccps change the hel tanks shield and the nid will tank armor forcing you to train a new set of tanking skills if you want to upgrade from carrier to MS if minmatar hmm clearly that makes sense.
Hel still seriously needs a CPU boost too as mentioned above it has less than a chimera either that or a switch to 7 lows 5 mids and im not sure the hel pilots on TQ would be too happy with that.
|
Vmir Gallahasen
Gallente
Omniscient Order
Cruel Intentions
|
Posted - 2007.11.06 00:34:00 -
[11]
I'd take another remote logistics bonus over the fighter bonus or resistance any day on my thanatos. If I'm taking heavy fire, my fleet's dead and I'm toast anyway.
As far as the carrier role itself is concerned, the chimera and archon are actually the weaker carriers. Both the thanatos and nidhoggur can do shields and armor from max range, and the nidhoggur gets a further boost to those. The chimera and archon can only do one each, and their massive tank is irrelevant in the typical fight.
-Vmir
|
Kyoko Sakoda
Caldari
Omerta Syndicate
|
Posted - 2007.11.06 02:13:00 -
[12]
/signed under the "Thanatos DPS bonus isn't so important to me" column.
|
LUH 3471
|
Posted - 2007.11.06 02:22:00 -
[13]
/signed
|
Samurai XII
|
Posted - 2007.11.06 03:33:00 -
[14]
Edited by: Samurai XII on 06/11/2007 03:33:31
Ok sure the Chimera has a 'uber' tank, but again not much use if you have no cap. Also the Chimera HAS to sacrifice its tank for a sensor booster or cap regen... Low slot cap regen also sacrifices the tank since they take away shield boost %.
If anything the nid and thanatos have it easy, while the Archon has it the easiest.
Boost Thanatos and Nid? SURE! But boost the Chimera and Archon also. If anything all carriers should get 5% cap regen per carrier level added.
The way it goes now:
Thanatos = added dps, shield/armor support.
Archon = added armor resistance, armor/energy support.
Nid = added support, shield/armor support.
Chimera = added shield resistance, shield/energy support.
Depending what you want to do, you choose one of those. Right now the best support carrier is the nid, then the thanatos. Best tank is Chimera for amount of dps it can tank, and Archon for its nice cap regen and tank.
Only problem i see is the Chimera/Wyvern have problems fitting since their CST and CSB require SO MUCH CPU. Oh and the hel needs a extra low slot.
______________________
Just another cool alt. |
voidvim
Minmatar
Genco
Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
|
Posted - 2007.11.06 04:59:00 -
[15]
/signed... but their might be better ways to balance / improve the carriers
|
Reatu Krentor
Minmatar
Void Spiders
Fate Weavers
|
Posted - 2007.11.06 05:55:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Samurai XII
Edited by: Samurai XII on 06/11/2007 03:33:31
Ok sure the Chimera has a 'uber' tank, but again not much use if you have no cap. Also the Chimera HAS to sacrifice its tank for a sensor booster or cap regen... Low slot cap regen also sacrifices the tank since they take away shield boost %.
4 cap relays and a second shield boost amp is the same as 5 cap rechargers in cap regen boost also using 5 slots total and the penalty of the cap relays is completely countered by the extra shield boost amp. So what's the problem? You're using just as many slots as anyone else to achieve the same cap recharge as everyone else? (Also you can opt for the relatively cheap faction cap relays and get better recharge then someone using 5 faction cap rechargers.)
-- stuff -- |
Reatu Krentor
Minmatar
Void Spiders
Fate Weavers
|
Posted - 2007.11.06 06:06:00 -
[17]
Definately signed to keep nidhoggur as is with the 6 mids and 5 lows.
All it needs is to get more cpu (so it actually has more cpu then a thanatos for a change). About 100 extra cpu sounds about right.
Besides that it could be nice if they bumped up the remote rep/shield transporter bonus on the nid to at least 6.5% (preferably 7.5%) and maybe even have it apply on capital shield booster as well. Perhaps a similar bonus for the Thanatos instead of its current fighter bonus(which isn't all that usefull in most situations currently anyway) could be interesting.
Finnally I do think the capital modules need to be balanced as well. The capital shield booster and shield boost amp, the hp/s and cap/s equivalent of 2 capital armor repairers, takes up half of the cpu available to the average carrier while 2 capital armor repairers use up 40% of the available grid. If the capital shield booster would be changed to take 230 cpu and 125000 grid it would take 40% cpu(combined with sba) and 20% grid, the inverse of 2 capital armor reps.
Triage module in the current incarnation isn't very good. The faster targeting and EW immunity would be the only reasons why I would use it, the cap requirements are too excessive to be forced to stay in place for 10 minutes.
-- stuff -- |
Afturmath
Ihatalo Navy
YouWhat
|
Posted - 2007.11.06 06:16:00 -
[18]
Regarding the Nidhoggur vs Hel shield/armor tanking debacle:
Training both types of tank is a standard Minmatar practice. If you look at the other ship classes, the distinction is clear-
Cyclone is shield, Hurricane is armor
Typhoon is armor, Tempest is either, Maelstrom is shield
It makes sense that the Nidhoggur and Hel would be the same way. Remember that Minmatar is pretty much the hard mode in terms of skill training required to fly all the ship types. I mean of course the armor+shield+guns+missiles idea, and am not implying in any way that Minmatar is the worst or best race. I do not believe there is a best at everything race, nor do I wish to derail the topic by suggesting that or sparking a debate.
On Thantaos and Nidhoggur changes:
I agree that the Thanatos needs a boost overall with the fighter nerf crippling their bonus. As for the Nidhoggur, it serves its purpose of remote repping far better than the other carriers, and the distinct advantage in this role outweighs the loss of having a substantial tank. Triage modules make the tank so significantly better, anyway, that it's almost a moot point for the Nidhoggur to be a Chimera-LiteÖ. Anyone on a carrier path should understand that the Nidhoggur is a support ship and realize the tanking won't be as effective as the Chimera or Archon.
I understand that, in their current state, a vast majority of Nidhoggur pilots are fulfilling a major offensive combat role, and I realize that most pilots who trained for it long ago had no idea the usefulness of their carrier's combat effectiveness (read: SolopwnmobilismÖ) would be diminished so heavily. Most pilots use carriers as if they were giant Dominixes, and that's what CCP is trying to change. I'm not arguing that the changes are just or even that they're currently balanced well. The point is that, as with the other ship types, each race's ships have certain roles to fill, and the carriers should show a large distinction between theirs. Having a Chimera, Chimera-LiteÖ, Archon, and Archon-LiteÖ will just cause everyone to retrain for Caldari or Amarr and all upcoming capital pilots to overlook the Nidhoggur and Thanatos completely.
The Nidhoggur and Hel will always be logistics ships over any other role, just as the Chimera, Wyvern, Archon, and Aeon will be capital tanks. The Thanatos and Nyx are in between right now, as their primary role was nerfed pretty hard. It's just going to be a matter of time (as with any major change) before someone at CCP takes a coffee break and clues in that something went horribly wrong.
Either way, /signed for fixing the two gimps.
|
Reatu Krentor
Minmatar
Void Spiders
Fate Weavers
|
Posted - 2007.11.06 08:48:00 -
[19]
Edited by: Reatu Krentor on 06/11/2007 08:52:42
Originally by: Afturmath
Regarding the Nidhoggur vs Hel shield/armor tanking debacle:
Training both types of tank is a standard Minmatar practice. If you look at the other ship classes, the distinction is clear-
Cyclone is shield, Hurricane is armor
Typhoon is armor, Tempest is either, Maelstrom is shield
It makes sense that the Nidhoggur and Hel would be the same way. Remember that Minmatar is pretty much the hard mode in terms of skill training required to fly all the ship types. I mean of course the armor+shield+guns+missiles idea, and am not implying in any way that Minmatar is the worst or best race. I do not believe there is a best at everything race, nor do I wish to derail the topic by suggesting that or sparking a debate.
I don't see a reason to change to nid to capital armor tank when there already is another minmatar capital ship that has armor tank, fullfilling the "standard minmatar practice". I'm of course referring to the Naglfar.
Originally by: Afturmath
On Thantaos and Nidhoggur changes:
I agree that the Thanatos needs a boost overall with the fighter nerf crippling their bonus. As for the Nidhoggur, it serves its purpose of remote repping far better than the other carriers, and the distinct advantage in this role outweighs the loss of having a substantial tank. Triage modules make the tank so significantly better, anyway, that it's almost a moot point for the Nidhoggur to be a Chimera-LiteÖ. Anyone on a carrier path should understand that the Nidhoggur is a support ship and realize the tanking won't be as effective as the Chimera or Archon.
I understand that, in their current state, a vast majority of Nidhoggur pilots are fulfilling a major offensive combat role, and I realize that most pilots who trained for it long ago had no idea the usefulness of their carrier's combat effectiveness (read: SolopwnmobilismÖ) would be diminished so heavily. Most pilots use carriers as if they were giant Dominixes, and that's what CCP is trying to change. I'm not arguing that the changes are just or even that they're currently balanced well. The point is that, as with the other ship types, each race's ships have certain roles to fill, and the carriers should show a large distinction between theirs. Having a Chimera, Chimera-LiteÖ, Archon, and Archon-LiteÖ will just cause everyone to retrain for Caldari or Amarr and all upcoming capital pilots to overlook the Nidhoggur and Thanatos completely.
You do know the fighter control change was reverted? They are not changing the carriers at this time. (ps. except for this odd nidhoggur change that doesn't even address the actual nidhoggur issue )
Originally by: Afturmath
The Nidhoggur and Hel will always be logistics ships over any other role, just as the Chimera, Wyvern, Archon, and Aeon will be capital tanks. The Thanatos and Nyx are in between right now, as their primary role was nerfed pretty hard. It's just going to be a matter of time (as with any major change) before someone at CCP takes a coffee break and clues in that something went horribly wrong.
Either way, /signed for fixing the two gimps.
Problem with the logistics strength of the Nidhoggur and Hel is that a pack of Chimeras/Wyverns or Archons/Aeons is better logistics wise because the resist bonus effectively boosts any tanking they do among eachother, by more then the current logistics bonus of the nid/hel at the moment.
-- stuff -- |
Abbel Nightroad
Under the Wings of Fury
Atrocitas
|
Posted - 2007.11.06 08:56:00 -
[20]
I think the Thanatos is ok, i mean it doesn't have CPU issues like other carriers do, however if i had to swap the skills i had trained, i would go for an Archon, because the fighter damage bonus is much less used than a tanking bonus, and the upcoming fighter nerf isn't going to help that.
I'd trade the fighter damage bonus for a repairer bonus anytime, but it's not like it's really needed for now, maybe after after the nerfbat strikes 
|
Amy Wang
|
Posted - 2007.11.06 11:34:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Reatu Krentor
Problem with the logistics strength of the Nidhoggur and Hel is that a pack of Chimeras/Wyverns or Archons/Aeons is better logistics wise because the resist bonus effectively boosts any tanking they do among eachother, by more then the current logistics bonus of the nid/hel at the moment.
And that is why the boost/repair amount bonus on the Nid should be 7,5% per level instead of 5%.
Actually every other ship with a boost/repair amount bonus has 7,5% per level to balance it against the 5% resist bonus other ships of that class get, why not with carriers? The fact that it is a remote bonus and not a direct tanking one shouldnt be reason to not increase it to 7,5%, it should be reason to consider even 10%/lvl.
|
Naviset
|
Posted - 2007.11.06 11:38:00 -
[22]
I can't believe this topic even exists tbh.
The best part about carriers is remote repping and theres not THAT many situations where you're gonna have 10 carriers all remote repping another carrier and that one dearly hanging on for life...
Has anyone tried fitting a Chimera? Even AFTER the cpu boost GL getting multiple remotes on it (Which works with the than/nid)
I say give the nid an extra low and one less mid and call it good.
And give the Chim some more CPU.
|
Linas IV
|
Posted - 2007.11.06 12:18:00 -
[23]
For me, they schould keep the slot-layout on the nidhogggur as it is on TQ (6/5)
and boost the cpu by a fair ammount (the 100 everyone considers seem ok)
The rest of its stats/bonus seem pretty balanced to me.
|
Random Womble
Minmatar
Master Miners
Aftermath Alliance
|
Posted - 2007.11.06 13:17:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Naviset
I can't believe this topic even exists tbh.
The best part about carriers is remote repping and theres not THAT many situations where you're gonna have 10 carriers all remote repping another carrier and that one dearly hanging on for life...
Has anyone tried fitting a Chimera? Even AFTER the cpu boost GL getting multiple remotes on it (Which works with the than/nid)
I say give the nid an extra low and one less mid and call it good.
And give the Chim some more CPU.
3 things for you to do
1 get a fitting program and try and fit a shield tank + everthing else on a nid
2 get a fitting prog and try and fit a shield tank + everthing else on a hel
3 stfu about the cpu issues of the chimera now that you can clearly see they dont even come close to those of the nid/hel
|
Reatu Krentor
Minmatar
Void Spiders
Fate Weavers
|
Posted - 2007.11.06 13:32:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Amy Wang
Originally by: Reatu Krentor
...
And that is why the boost/repair amount bonus on the Nid should be 7,5% per level instead of 5%.
Actually every other ship with a boost/repair amount bonus has 7,5% per level to balance it against the 5% resist bonus other ships of that class get, why not with carriers? The fact that it is a remote bonus and not a direct tanking one shouldnt be reason to not increase it to 7,5%, it should be reason to consider even 10%/lvl.
My guess as to why it's not 7.5% as one would expect is for balance reasons, a capital remote repper/shield booster is pretty strong when you're boosting a non-capital ship even before it gets increased. However I also think 5% is too low and would rather like to see 6.5% at a minimum(would still be slightly weaker then a resist bonus' effect but far closer then current)
Originally by: Naviset
I can't believe this topic even exists tbh.
The best part about carriers is remote repping and theres not THAT many situations where you're gonna have 10 carriers all remote repping another carrier and that one dearly hanging on for life...
Has anyone tried fitting a Chimera? Even AFTER the cpu boost GL getting multiple remotes on it (Which works with the than/nid)
I say give the nid an extra low and one less mid and call it good.
And give the Chim some more CPU.
So others wanting a ship boosted is not allowed but the chimera has to be boosted? yeah, ok  .
Nidhoggur doesn't need a slot layout change to get balanced, it needs cpu increased to be ABOVE that of a Thanatos and closer to Chimera.
If the Chimera is still low on CPU after a boost perhaps that would be a good indication there is something unbalanced about cpu usage of capital mods, just maybe?
As I have said a couple times last few days, capital shield tank takes too much cpu.
That said, I just did a quick EFT fitting and I don't get a problem fitting 1 capital shield transporter(and 1 capital energy transfer with 3 dcu) with a capital shield tank on the Chimera, GL getting even 1 capital shield transporter to fit on a shield tanking nid(or anything else in the highs but the shield transporter)...
-- stuff -- |
Amy Wang
|
Posted - 2007.11.06 14:16:00 -
[26]
Edited by: Amy Wang on 06/11/2007 14:16:03
A CPU increase wont do much, shield tanking the Nid is still not viable unless you plan on using triage all the time as after fitting the mandatory 2 sensor boosters (without them a single celestis/arazu/lachesis can knock your out of the fight and before you argue that one is enough now, try it yourself against a decent skilled damp ship) you only have 4 med slots left, hardly enough for a working shield tank. Maybe the damp nerf will change the requirement to 1 sensor booster but thats far from certain.
For that reason I am quite happy with the Nid getting steered more to armor tanking with the 6 lows and I hope they keep that, the only way to make shield tanking the Nid viable would be to give it 7 meds AND some sort of tanking bonus and a CPU boost obviously, any shield tank below the Chimeras abilities is not worthwhile imho.
|
Random Womble
Minmatar
Master Miners
Aftermath Alliance
|
Posted - 2007.11.06 14:42:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Amy Wang
Edited by: Amy Wang on 06/11/2007 14:16:03
A CPU increase wont do much, shield tanking the Nid is still not viable unless you plan on using triage all the time as after fitting the mandatory 2 sensor boosters (without them a single celestis/arazu/lachesis can knock your out of the fight and before you argue that one is enough now, try it yourself against a decent skilled damp ship) you only have 4 med slots left, hardly enough for a working shield tank. Maybe the damp nerf will change the requirement to 1 sensor booster but thats far from certain.
For that reason I am quite happy with the Nid getting steered more to armor tanking with the 6 lows and I hope they keep that, the only way to make shield tanking the Nid viable would be to give it 7 meds AND some sort of tanking bonus and a CPU boost obviously, any shield tank below the Chimeras abilities is not worthwhile imho.
After the patch a signal boost amp will be almost as good as a sensorbooster, i admit it wont have the options scrips will give you but on a basic level.
|
Afturmath
Ihatalo Navy
YouWhat
|
Posted - 2007.11.06 14:49:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Reatu Krentor
I don't see a reason to change to nid to capital armor tank when there already is another minmatar capital ship that has armor tank, fullfilling the "standard minmatar practice". I'm of course referring to the Naglfar.
I did think about the Naglfar, but the training difference between it and carriers sort of separates the distinct training paths, whereas the bs/bc/carrier type-variants are all separate tank types.
Originally by: Reatu Krentor
You do know the fighter control change was reverted? They are not changing the carriers at this time. (ps. except for this odd nidhoggur change that doesn't even address the actual nidhoggur issue)
Yeah, but they will be changing it eventually. If not this patch, the nerf is still a lingering threat.
Originally by: Reatu Krentor
Problem with the logistics strength of the Nidhoggur and Hel is that a pack of Chimeras/Wyverns or Archons/Aeons is better logistics wise because the resist bonus effectively boosts any tanking they do among eachother, by more then the current logistics bonus of the nid/hel at the moment.
Yes, but they are also trying to boost the usefulness of carriers in providing repping to support as well. The triage module is a distinct tactical advantage when supporting that 100+ BS fleet, and the Nidhoggur/Hel will always have a nice advantage for that role. There's always the option to use triage Nidhoggurs/Hels to rep the Archon/Aeon/Chimera/Wyvern fleet as well, providing a further advantage over the exclusive Caldari/Amarr fleet.
|
Random Womble
Minmatar
Master Miners
Aftermath Alliance
|
Posted - 2007.11.06 15:02:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Afturmath
Originally by: Reatu Krentor
I don't see a reason to change to nid to capital armor tank when there already is another minmatar capital ship that has armor tank, fullfilling the "standard minmatar practice". I'm of course referring to the Naglfar.
I did think about the Naglfar, but the training difference between it and carriers sort of separates the distinct training paths, whereas the bs/bc/carrier type-variants are all separate tank types.
Originally by: Reatu Krentor
You do know the fighter control change was reverted? They are not changing the carriers at this time. (ps. except for this odd nidhoggur change that doesn't even address the actual nidhoggur issue)
Yeah, but they will be changing it eventually. If not this patch, the nerf is still a lingering threat.
Originally by: Reatu Krentor
Problem with the logistics strength of the Nidhoggur and Hel is that a pack of Chimeras/Wyverns or Archons/Aeons is better logistics wise because the resist bonus effectively boosts any tanking they do among eachother, by more then the current logistics bonus of the nid/hel at the moment.
Yes, but they are also trying to boost the usefulness of carriers in providing repping to support as well. The triage module is a distinct tactical advantage when supporting that 100+ BS fleet, and the Nidhoggur/Hel will always have a nice advantage for that role. There's always the option to use triage Nidhoggurs/Hels to rep the Archon/Aeon/Chimera/Wyvern fleet as well, providing a further advantage over the exclusive Caldari/Amarr fleet.
No one uses triage though because it sucks your much better off with spider repping between a group of carriers/MS ok so it quadruple the ammount of damage your own tank can rep however it also doubles the cap usage which means you cant leave your tank perma running if you do get attacked more likely you will be able to run it 50% of the time only doubling your tank, it also doubles the huge cap consumption of remote reps if you do even get to use them and 1 remote rep uses alot of cap as it is effectively 2 remote reps worth of cap is not sustainable either.
As for the BC and BSs tanks each does a diffrent job while the MS and carriers do the same jobs if you want to look at it in that sort of way we can go frig -> cruiser -> BS where the rifter is pretty much a smaller ruppy and ruppy smaller tempest all those 3 ships can do both arm and shield tanks best at armor tanking though all 3 are gun boats (you dont HAVE to train missiles for them).
|
Pociomundo
Gallente
Aliastra
|
Posted - 2007.11.09 15:30:00 -
[30]
I'd love a boost to Capital Self Repair amount for the Thanatos, much better than +25dps on each Fighter at maxed skills >.<
+7.5% Repair amount per Carrier level would give us a lvl 4 tank of 4k dps (2 Rep, 3 Hardeners, 1 EANM), which is around the same as the average Chimera / Archon T2 tank, perhaps a bit less and not as good, as high resist > high repair, but still, a lot more useful for a capital ship than 25dps per Fighter which on average works out at just +250dps total, 1250dps from an all lvl 5 Thanatos pilot isn't much different to 1000 the rest put out with 10 Fighters, they are both still Battleship dps numbers.
_________________________________________________________ |
Reatu Krentor
Minmatar
Void Spiders
Fate Weavers
|
Posted - 2007.11.10 07:28:00 -
[31]
Originally by: Amy Wang
Edited by: Amy Wang on 06/11/2007 14:16:03
A CPU increase wont do much, shield tanking the Nid is still not viable unless you plan on using triage all the time as after fitting the mandatory 2 sensor boosters (without them a single celestis/arazu/lachesis can knock your out of the fight and before you argue that one is enough now, try it yourself against a decent skilled damp ship) you only have 4 med slots left, hardly enough for a working shield tank. Maybe the damp nerf will change the requirement to 1 sensor booster but thats far from certain.
Let's see Lachesis pilot with max skills using a T2 damp and rigs on TQ currently reduces targeting range and sensor resolution by 76.31% for each damp it uses. 1 T2 sensor booster increases both by 60%. That means you would need 5 T2 sensor boosters just to counter that 1 damp. One or two sensor boosters you're more then likely out of the fight regardless if there is a good skilled pilot around in a Celestis/lachesis/arazu. All you really can do is get others to kill that pilot asap or get him to warp out.
That said, I'm curious who you are  . Talking through an alt is meh  .
-- stuff -- |
Angor
The JORG Corporation
Terra Incognita.
|
Posted - 2007.11.10 08:15:00 -
[32]
You know what, maybe some of us dont shield tank our nids. CCP have probably noticed that most ppl armor tank the nid and have decided to give it more lows than mids. But even though I armor tank my nid, i plan to use the extra low for a cap recharger which will give me an extra 4% cap recharge from its original mid slot setup. Its a medical carrier, its bonuses are to rep and the thanatos gets nice rep bonus too so if you go out with 3 to 5 nids or thanatos's all setup with 2 shield and 2 armor cap remote reps and fit for cap recharge then they are extreamly difficult to kill. On armageddon day me and my corp tested this out with 5-6 carriers and with all those dreads on grid, not one of us ever died and we got dozens of kills. Although not a real combat situation with no jammers or damps on any of us, it still proved that just going for this uber tank for a carrier isnt really worth it unless you want to solo the thing which is something CCP doesnt want you to do.
_______________________________
[ 2007.06.07 21:07:22 ] FrankyWave > ransom me guys I am joining XElas !!! |
Reatu Krentor
Minmatar
Void Spiders
Fate Weavers
|
Posted - 2007.11.10 11:22:00 -
[33]
Originally by: Angor
You know what, maybe some of us dont shield tank our nids. CCP have probably noticed that most ppl armor tank the nid and have decided to give it more lows than mids. But even though I armor tank my nid, i plan to use the extra low for a cap recharger which will give me an extra 4% cap recharge from its original mid slot setup. Its a medical carrier, its bonuses are to rep and the thanatos gets nice rep bonus too so if you go out with 3 to 5 nids or thanatos's all setup with 2 shield and 2 armor cap remote reps and fit for cap recharge then they are extreamly difficult to kill. On armageddon day me and my corp tested this out with 5-6 carriers and with all those dreads on grid, not one of us ever died and we got dozens of kills. Although not a real combat situation with no jammers or damps on any of us, it still proved that just going for this uber tank for a carrier isnt really worth it unless you want to solo the thing which is something CCP doesnt want you to do.
Y'know, some of us have trained for both tanking types  . CCP prolly did notice that most ppl armor tank it, but it seems they didn't investigate thoroughly why. Most of the time I have to armor tank it just so I can use a Capital shield transporter.
-- stuff -- |
Jimmy Doe
Bladerunners
Imperial Republic Of the North
|
Posted - 2007.11.10 11:47:00 -
[34]
umm i dual repp my thanatos and with 4 cap recharger II's + sensor booster + 3 ccc rigs i can perma run the reppers... the only complaint i have about a thanatos tank is the same one i have for all carriers, armor repper rigs dont work for them.
"The tree of liberty is nurtured with the blood of patriots." |
Amy Wang
|
Posted - 2007.11.10 11:49:00 -
[35]
Edited by: Amy Wang on 10/11/2007 11:50:05
Originally by: Angor
But even though I armor tank my nid, i plan to use the extra low for a cap recharger which will give me an extra 4% cap recharge from its original mid slot setup.
That is a very viable option as well but the key is to have the choice between better resists and better cap and not being basically forced to use the 5 slot tank layout. Plus 4% cap recharge is a pretty nice boost over the old setup that used only cap rechargers, its a win-win.
Originally by: Reatu Krentor
Let's see Lachesis pilot with max skills using a T2 damp and rigs on TQ currently reduces targeting range and sensor resolution by 76.31% for each damp it uses. 1 T2 sensor booster increases both by 60%. That means you would need 5 T2 sensor boosters just to counter that 1 damp. One or two sensor boosters you're more then likely out of the fight regardless if there is a good skilled pilot around in a Celestis/lachesis/arazu.
It is not about countering the damps completely that is neither possible nor necessary to be useful.
A decent skilled Lachesis with 3 damps (more then 3 have very diminished effects so it doesnt matter really) will damp a double sensor boosted Nid down to about 25km, that is enough to keep remote repairing the other carriers in the pack and other ships as well that are sensible enough to stay close enough to you, alternatively with only 1 sensor booster your lock range will be around 7km and that means you are really out of the fight in most cases.
|
Daelin Blackleaf
Aliastra
|
Posted - 2007.11.10 13:44:00 -
[36]
A topic close to my heart.
The balance between the carriers is as far as I can tell the worst of any class in the game.
A Chimera can get 61% higher normalized rep (just over 2000nhp/s more) and 10% extra normalized hit points, while the Than gets 250 extra DPS and the Nid gets a rep bonus that is overshadowed by the fact that the Chimera and Archon provide a built in bonus to every remote rep pointed at them.
I don't care if you buff the Than and Nid or nerf the Archon and Chimera, this needs looking at.
|
Reatu Krentor
Minmatar
Void Spiders
Fate Weavers
|
Posted - 2007.11.10 14:51:00 -
[37]
Originally by: Amy Wang
Originally by: Reatu Krentor
...
It is not about countering the damps completely that is neither possible nor necessary to be useful.
A decent skilled Lachesis with 3 damps (more then 3 have very diminished effects so it doesnt matter really) will damp a double sensor boosted Nid down to about 25km, that is enough to keep remote repairing the other carriers in the pack and other ships as well that are sensible enough to stay close enough to you, alternatively with only 1 sensor booster your lock range will be around 7km and that means you are really out of the fight in most cases.
3 damps from a max-skilled lachesis pilot on TQ reduce targeting range from 109.38km down to 4.94km, 1 T2 sensor booster brings that up to 7.88km, 2 it goes to 12km, 3 is 16km. 12 km is not 25. with the current TQ damps how many boosters you have is practically irrelevant, if you're properly damped you're out of the fight in many cases.
-- stuff -- |
Amy Wang
|
Posted - 2007.11.10 15:15:00 -
[38]
Originally by: Reatu Krentor
3 damps from a max-skilled lachesis pilot on TQ reduce targeting range from 109.38km down to 4.94km, 1 T2 sensor booster brings that up to 7.88km, 2 it goes to 12km, 3 is 16km. 12 km is not 25. with the current TQ damps how many boosters you have is practically irrelevant, if you're properly damped you're out of the fight in many cases.
I did never say "max skilled" I did say "decently skilled". I actually had an arazu pilot with lvl 4 recon and lvl 4 damp spec dampen me on TQ with 3 sensor damp IIs while I had 2 sensor boosters II running and I got 25km lock range.
(Maybe max skills as in lvl 5 in recon and damp spec will do more, dunno if that much more, I doubt it, but then again how common is that anyway.)
Maybe the whole discussion is superfluous anyway as damps are getting changed in Rev 3 and since scripts are not yet on SiSi who knows how they will pan out in the end.
|
Reatu Krentor
Minmatar
Void Spiders
Fate Weavers
|
Posted - 2007.11.10 16:47:00 -
[39]
Originally by: Amy Wang
Originally by: Reatu Krentor
3 damps from a max-skilled lachesis pilot on TQ reduce targeting range from 109.38km down to 4.94km, 1 T2 sensor booster brings that up to 7.88km, 2 it goes to 12km, 3 is 16km. 12 km is not 25. with the current TQ damps how many boosters you have is practically irrelevant, if you're properly damped you're out of the fight in many cases.
I did never say "max skilled" I did say "decently skilled". I actually had an arazu pilot with lvl 4 recon and lvl 4 damp spec dampen me on TQ with 3 sensor damp IIs while I had 2 sensor boosters II running and I got 25km lock range.
(Maybe max skills as in lvl 5 in recon and damp spec will do more, dunno if that much more, I doubt it, but then again how common is that anyway.)
Maybe the whole discussion is superfluous anyway as damps are getting changed in Rev 3 and since scripts are not yet on SiSi who knows how they will pan out in the end.
recon skill wouldn't matter, cruiser skill would . 3 T2 damps with Lvl 4 damp spec(and no rigs) would make it for 1 T2 sensor booster 13.33km, 20.29 with 2. On TQ
Dampeners have changed a lot on sisi, not just the introduction of scripts but also how the bonuses are being applied has changed. In other words, dampening won't be quite as powerfull as it is now. Does mean that this whole discussion is mostly irrelevant for trinity.
-- stuff -- |
Victor Ivanov
Minmatar
The Fated
Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
|
Posted - 2007.11.10 18:12:00 -
[40]
Originally by: Random Womble
Edited by: Random Womble on 06/11/2007 00:31:48
Originally by: Takita Yukida
the funny thing is: the nid got the +1 lowslot, the hel didn't
Hel is meant to be shield tanked as is the nid really, all the motherships gain one tanking slot over there carrier counterparts, wyvern gets 8 mids aeon 8 lows nyx 7 lows and the hel 7 mids except now thanks to ccps change the hel tanks shield and the nid will tank armor forcing you to train a new set of tanking skills if you want to upgrade from carrier to MS if minmatar hmm clearly that makes sense.
Hel still seriously needs a CPU boost too as mentioned above it has less than a chimera either that or a switch to 7 lows 5 mids and im not sure the hel pilots on TQ would be too happy with that.
Minmatar called. They want you to hand in your genitals. You are no longer worthy of breeding and spawning new members of our tribes.
From a roleplay perspective and game mechanics, it fits. And I love it.
We ARE the MOST skill intensive race to play. You should know that by now. Shields, drones, missiles, armor, projectile, ew, speed.
For the Hel to be a dedicated Shield Tanker and the Nidhoggur a dedicated Armor tanker, it works. It fits our race. Sure, it may suck for those who want to fly the Hel, but damnit: You better have good skills to begin with if you wish to fly a mothership. Tactical Shield Manipulation V is not really a big deal.
The thanatos is the most used and generally seen as the best carrier. Leave it as it is. Same slot layout means nothing, there are plenty of cruisers who have the exact same slots but are not nearly similiar due to thier roles and bonuses.
We have a spectrum that is saturated in the entire eve universe.
Amarr -------> Heavy armor tanker
Caldari ------> Heavy Shield tanker
Are both the extreme ends of the tanking spectrum.
Gallente and Minmatar are somewhat in between, with Minmatar being the odd one out because it's not really heavy anything. Gallente is geared towards armor tanking, but not as much as Amarr.
In conclusion: The change is a brilliant one. Don't change it. It fits the Minmatar philosophy, gameplay aspects and the Thanatos is fine.
----------------------
|
Random Womble
Minmatar
Master Miners
Aftermath Alliance
|
Posted - 2007.11.10 18:22:00 -
[41]
Originally by: Victor Ivanov
Originally by: Random Womble
Edited by: Random Womble on 06/11/2007 00:31:48
Originally by: Takita Yukida
the funny thing is: the nid got the +1 lowslot, the hel didn't
Hel is meant to be shield tanked as is the nid really, all the motherships gain one tanking slot over there carrier counterparts, wyvern gets 8 mids aeon 8 lows nyx 7 lows and the hel 7 mids except now thanks to ccps change the hel tanks shield and the nid will tank armor forcing you to train a new set of tanking skills if you want to upgrade from carrier to MS if minmatar hmm clearly that makes sense.
Hel still seriously needs a CPU boost too as mentioned above it has less than a chimera either that or a switch to 7 lows 5 mids and im not sure the hel pilots on TQ would be too happy with that.
Minmatar called. They want you to hand in your genitals. You are no longer worthy of breeding and spawning new members of our tribes.
From a roleplay perspective and game mechanics, it fits. And I love it.
We ARE the MOST skill intensive race to play. You should know that by now. Shields, drones, missiles, armor, projectile, ew, speed.
For the Hel to be a dedicated Shield Tanker and the Nidhoggur a dedicated Armor tanker, it works. It fits our race. Sure, it may suck for those who want to fly the Hel, but damnit: You better have good skills to begin with if you wish to fly a mothership. Tactical Shield Manipulation V is not really a big deal.
The thanatos is the most used and generally seen as the best carrier. Leave it as it is. Same slot layout means nothing, there are plenty of cruisers who have the exact same slots but are not nearly similiar due to thier roles and bonuses.
We have a spectrum that is saturated in the entire eve universe.
Amarr -------> Heavy armor tanker
Caldari ------> Heavy Shield tanker
Are both the extreme ends of the tanking spectrum.
Gallente and Minmatar are somewhat in between, with Minmatar being the odd one out because it's not really heavy anything. Gallente is geared towards armor tanking, but not as much as Amarr.
In conclusion: The change is a brilliant one. Don't change it. It fits the Minmatar philosophy, gameplay aspects and the Thanatos is fine.
How you can think that the thanny is the best carrier is beyond me.
|
Lelulie
|
Posted - 2007.11.10 19:12:00 -
[42]
It's popular because of + armour and shield transfer range, a massive % of Thanatos pilots are alts, they choose the Thanatos because there's lots of other stuff their alt can fly before the carrier that blends nicely with their other race main and shield and armour range makes them very versatile.
No one actually skills for the Thanatos just to have 250dps over the other carriers at lvl 5, because that is ofc a joke.
Real pilots would prefer +1k dps on our tank to bring us on par with Archon Chimera tanks, rather than a joke of +25dps to each Fighter.
This can be done with 7.5% + to capital rep amount per carrier level, though 5% would be ok if the Caldari / AMarr pilots would whine too much about us being able to achieve a 4k T2 tank like them.
|
Xeliya
Eternity INC.
Mercenary Coalition
|
Posted - 2007.11.10 20:12:00 -
[43]
Edited by: Xeliya on 10/11/2007 20:13:28
Originally by: Random Womble
How you can think that the thanny is the best carrier is beyond me.
Uh the Thanny is the best, which is why a lot of people who fly the Chimera's or Nidd's cross train to the Thanny, including myself. I have both and fly both. You can fit a good tank (and perma run it), tackle gear, remote shield and armor rep and you get a sexy damage to drone damage. For a Chimera if you are to fit for a fight you can fit the same tank as the Thanny just have more rep but your booster only last for about 3-4min where the Thanny never has to turn his off.
A picture worth a 1000 words.
Picture 1
Picture 2
2 Chimera's and 20ish Thanny's. I wonder which one most people think is better . . .
|
Cheenie
|
Posted - 2007.11.10 22:58:00 -
[44]
Edited by: Cheenie on 10/11/2007 23:06:49
Originally by: Xeliya
Edited by: Xeliya on 10/11/2007 20:13:28
Originally by: Random Womble
How you can think that the thanny is the best carrier is beyond me.
Uh the Thanny is the best, which is why a lot of people who fly the Chimera's or Nidd's cross train to the Thanny, including myself. I have both and fly both. You can fit a good tank (and perma run it), tackle gear, remote shield and armor rep and you get a sexy damage to drone damage. For a Chimera if you are to fit for a fight you can fit the same tank as the Thanny just have more rep but your booster only last for about 3-4min where the Thanny never has to turn his off.
A picture worth a 1000 words.
Picture 1
Picture 2
2 Chimera's and 20ish Thanny's. I wonder which one most people think is better . . .
Rofl sexy drone damage, +25 dps to each Fighter at max skills is sexy? it's a joke.
1250 dps over 1000 oh my, it's like to diff between Ions and Neutrons on a Mega...
Tackling Thanatos can't perma run a 3k tank, whatever tank you perma run isn't that great as it needs a CPR too scene as Sensor booster + scrambler. Or you aren't quite perma tanking.
There are LOADS of Archon's and even Nidnoggers in your pic too, and your pic was taken back before the CPU changes and Chimera's were very hard to fit back then, hence many didn't fly them becuase their e-peen was also deflated by the Chimera's size.
|
Xeliya
Eternity INC.
Mercenary Coalition
|
Posted - 2007.11.11 00:43:00 -
[45]
Edited by: Xeliya on 11/11/2007 00:44:37
Originally by: Cheenie
lolz stuff
Thanny Bonus is 5% damage per level. 10 fighters + 25% = 2.5 more fighters. Unless it was changed on SiSi.
With 12 fighters and max skills
Thanny 1550 DPS
Chimera 1200 DPS
Saying 25% more damage is worse then 5% more resist all around is a joke. Why do you think people fit Gyro's, BCU's, etc on fleet ships instead of a tank? To do more damage. If you kill your opponent faster there is nothing you need to tank.
25% resist at max level on an Archon/Chimera adds about 5% overall. The Chimera cannot perma run it's reps so in a big fight lag can get you killed very easy. Let's also not forget most people fit remote armor reps.
So you can choose to kill your targets 25% faster, be able to hold them in place OR have 5% more resist all around and have to worry about cap and other people not being able to rep you where your resist is best. Carriers are not solo pwn mobiles so it doesn't matter what the Thanny can rep on it's own as there should be someone there to remote rep you. If there isn't your dead as it is.
You do realize the boost didn't change a whole lot. You still can't fit a scram with proper fittings. All it let you do was drop low CPU mods for normal mods. My fitting never changed other then I went from DG hardeners to T2. If you didn't fly a ship cause it was small is even more laughable. Also the Niddy had a horrible bonus back then. Only difference today is you see less Niddy's then anything else.
The only cap ships that needs a boost is the Niddy and Hel's CPU. If the Chimera is such a godly ship (quite laughable) the cross train to it like I did over to the Thanny.
Also post with your main, back up your post with some experience or don't post at all.
|
Ivor Gunn
No One Expects The Spanish Inquisition
|
Posted - 2007.11.11 00:50:00 -
[46]
Edited by: Ivor Gunn on 11/11/2007 00:50:37
Originally by: Xeliya
Why do you think people fit Gyro's, BCU's, etc on fleet ships instead of a tank?
Because after a full rack of top-tier guns you can't fit even a semblence of tank, so better to enhance what you can that to try at what you can't. However, most megaT fleet fits will these days feature 2 1600mm plates, so your point doesnt really stand.
|
Cheenie
|
Posted - 2007.11.11 01:21:00 -
[47]
Edited by: Cheenie on 11/11/2007 01:26:42
Originally by: Xeliya
Failed at maths
Max skilled Thanatos with 12 Fighters is 1500 dps.
Each one is 125 dps.
I.e. +25 dps like I said.
Chimera can perma run a tank fine, you just have to know how to fit and not just go and fit PDUs like evry other Caldari Capital pilot.
Whatever way you wanna put it, 250 extra dps is not a lot for a max skilled Thanatos pilot with 10 Fighters out.
+1k tank the Archon and Chimera have with equivalent gear however is a lot more.
1k vs 1.25k
3k vs 4k.
|
Victor Ivanov
Minmatar
The Fated
Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate
|
Posted - 2007.11.11 02:25:00 -
[48]
Originally by: Random Womble
How you can think that the thanny is the best carrier is beyond me.
I don't. Hence why I said "Most people think of it as the best".
However, the Thanatos is exactly average, like a carrier should be. Every one of them had advantages and disadvantages that more or less balanced each other. Nidhoggur was the only one where Crap tank, crap capacitor and up until recently: crap bonus gave you the advantage of slightly faster repping.
Now, the carriers all retain their individuality, but are more balanced.
Add Zulu's planned nerf to stop all of the rampant carrier skilling lately, and we should be good to go. *thumbs up*
----------------------
|
Xeliya
Eternity INC.
Mercenary Coalition
|
Posted - 2007.11.11 02:51:00 -
[49]
Edited by: Xeliya on 11/11/2007 02:55:14
Originally by: Cheenie
lolz alt again
Sorry I forgot to turn off the SB in EFT for my setup.
As for perma tanking you lose your shield buffer and hull buffer for people to have more time to get you locked up and remote repping.
Let's also not forget the Thanny can use Slaves and have a very very nice buffer for people to get reps on you. You still seem to forget Carrier are suppose to be used in groups, not solo. Being able to tackle, and kill the target 25% faster is better then tanking 5% more damage.
In the time a Thanny kills 5 BS and starts working on the 6th the Chimera has killed 4. Now that is considering the Chimera gets lucky and non warp off since they wouldn't have a point on them
Each race is different, Gallente is a damage and drones not a tanking race. Caldari and Amarr are tankers and Minmatar is speed (which sorta screws their caps). If you want them all the same go play a different game. There are diversities in Eve for a good reason. You choose your style. I prefer DPS and so do many other people who fight in groups. A good example why it is nice to have different races is how we had fit our Ragnarok, it went over 600m/s and warped in less then 15, we used the Minmatar speed advantage to our favor.
|
Random Womble
Minmatar
Master Miners
Aftermath Alliance
|
Posted - 2007.11.11 03:33:00 -
[50]
TBH one of the intial reasons there are so many thanny pilots is becauase carriers are drone boats and so instantly the thanny suited many older gallente while other races have had to train up alot especially the caldari. I admit that now other races are catching up but even now a large proportion of carrier pilots for other races are alts specifically trained for carriers. I personally know several people that chose to train for the chimera from the start, a few people that have trained the thanny and regretted it and no one that wants to train the nid unless they are allready minmatar.
|
Xeliya
Eternity INC.
Mercenary Coalition
|
Posted - 2007.11.11 04:54:00 -
[51]
Originally by: Random Womble
TBH one of the intial reasons there are so many thanny pilots is becauase carriers are drone boats and so instantly the thanny suited many older gallente while other races have had to train up alot especially the caldari. I admit that now other races are catching up but even now a large proportion of carrier pilots for other races are alts specifically trained for carriers. I personally know several people that chose to train for the chimera from the start, a few people that have trained the thanny and regretted it and no one that wants to train the nid unless they are allready minmatar.
I have yet to meet someone who regretted training a Thanny and cross trained over to a Chimera that use it regularly in combat, but it is not hard to find many that went from a Chimera to Thanny or Archon. As for people who choose to train for a Chimera from the start I have met very very few of them and that is usually because it means that have a care bear alt now (aka the Raven), if you want a tank you go Archon as it can perma run dual rep and have a point.
As for the Nid I will agree with as it is crap due to its CPU. Also no drone skills apply to fighters so I don't see how being good in a drone boat means you have less training time for a Carrier. Hell I have crap all around drone skills but I have fighters 5 because thats all that really matters TBH. If you need to drop heavies it means your drones are getting killed and you will be dropping T1 drones.
As for Thanny was a vet carrier thing, I sell carriers believe it or not. Best seller list is Thanny > Chimera > Archon > Niddy. So it is still the ship of choice and ship of choice by far considering I have always have a queue with 2 BPO's for it. Chimera is the next best due to all the carebear alts or new people who trained Caldari for PVE. Archons and Niddys sell about the same TBH or at least to the alliance I sell too on a regular basis. Sales over the last 3 months have been 14 Thanny's, 7 Chimera's, 3 Archon's and 1 Niddy. The Chimera and Thanny's usually run with 1 in the queue. Even CCP confirms this with that economic blog they did a while ago. If the Thanny is so bad why is it still the most used Capital? Why is the Nyx most used MS as it is the same bonus and slot layout is boosted the same as the other MS's.
|
Daelin Blackleaf
Aliastra
|
Posted - 2007.11.11 07:39:00 -
[52]
The majority of people wearing baseball caps does not inherently make them superior to a kevlar helmet.
A lot of people fly the Than for a lot of reasons from skill progression to damage obsession, that does not make it a better carrier.
The maximum perma-tank available to the Thanatos and Nid (post change) with t2 equipment is 3176, on the Archon it is 5061 and for the Chimera 5186. Thats a 61% increase from the Nid/Than to the Chimera. You can argue the tackling fit or sensor booster angle if you wish but even with a sensor booster the Chimera can attain 4196 nhp/s rep, and frankly I'd still say having three remote sensor boosters pointed at you would be far more effective.
A 25% resist bonus gives (in theory) 25% to repair, 25% to hp, and an additional 25% to all remote repping aimed at it the ship. Of course the slot layouts and difference in power between dual/amped capital reps and a set of fighters/remote reps makes what is already a superior bonus just plain ridiculous.
The Than and Nid are roughly balanced with their varying attributes and bonuses, the Archon and Chimera similarly are pretty much evenly matched. However between these pairs is gaping void of imbalance.
Either the Than and Nid need a tanking bonus, or the Chimera and Archon need their resist bonus reduced.
|
Xeliya
Eternity INC.
Mercenary Coalition
|
Posted - 2007.11.11 09:16:00 -
[53]
Originally by: Daelin Blackleaf
Stuff
Your comparing apples to oranges there as they are 2 VERY different things. One is used for a job (military, swat, etc) and the other for aesthetics. But I will play with it. Baseball caps are far superior when it comes to your everyday use, would you want to goto the beach, play sports, go out side with a 20 pound bucket on your head that serve no purpose unless people are going to be shooting at your head?
A normal Chimera will always have dual sensor boosters, any normal carrier will for that matter. Thus it's perma tankable DPS is 3668. Every carrier should have dual sensor boosters. In MC it is law. If you want a point so your target doesn't warp off each time you are now down to 2742. The Thanny can also have twice the amount of effective HP as the Chimera, which means if he is getting hit by a pack of dreads he will live longer and allow others to get reps on him.
As fore remote sensor boosters . . . just lols. They fail for many reasons, there is not way to let someone know you need to be boosted, they stack, you cannot lock somebody if you are damped (without your own sensor boosters) therefor you cannot help each other and it is a waste of a high. I have NEVER seen a group of carriers us remote boosters, for that matter someone in a fleet or a gang use them.
Theory != fact, hence why it is theory. You also seem to forget that 25% only equates to 5% resistance as it stacks unlike the damage bonus.
If you want a tanking bonus to the Thanny and Niddy why don't we just make 1 type of Carrier, while we are at it 1 type of Battleship, and every other ship in the game.
|
Cheenie
|
Posted - 2007.11.11 11:19:00 -
[54]
Edited by: Cheenie on 11/11/2007 11:19:27
Originally by: Xeliya
Edited by: Xeliya on 11/11/2007 03:01:52
Originally by: Ivor Gunn
Edited by: Ivor Gunn on 11/11/2007 00:50:37
Originally by: Xeliya
Why do you think people fit Gyro's, BCU's, etc on fleet ships instead of a tank?
Because after a full rack of top-tier guns you can't fit even a semblence of tank, so better to enhance what you can that to try at what you can't. However, most megaT fleet fits will these days feature 2 1600mm plates, so your point doesnt really stand.
Plates are not tanks, they are buffers to allow you to get out and most snipers fit one you you will pop before you can click warp. And why do we fit top tier guns if we want a tank over damage? I could go with 1200's on a Tempest but I would rather the 1400's and 3x Gyros with a 1600mm plate or I could even go with low grid 1400's but that lessens my damage output.
Originally by: Cheenie
lolz alt again
Sorry I forgot to turn off the SB in EFT for my setup.
As for perma tanking you lose your shield buffer and hull buffer for people to have more time to get you locked up and remote repping.
Let's also not forget the Thanny can use Slaves and have a very very nice buffer for people to get reps on you. You still seem to forget Carriers are suppose to be used in groups, not solo. Being able to tackle, and kill the target 25% faster is better then tanking 5% more damage as how much you can rep means jack when you have 10 remote reps on you. If you are primaried you turn you rep off and build cap to jump out and let others rep you and you hold as long as you can.
In the time a Thanny kills 5 BS and starts working on the 6th the Chimera has killed 4. Now that is considering the Chimera gets lucky and non warp off since they wouldn't have a point on them
Each race is different, Gallente is a damage and drones not a tanking race. Caldari and Amarr are tankers and Minmatar is speed (which sorta screws their caps). If you want them all the same go play a different game. There are diversities in Eve for a good reason. You choose your style. I prefer DPS and so do many other people who fight in groups. A good example why it is nice to have different races is how we had fit our Ragnarok, it went over 600m/s and warped in less then 15, we used the Minmatar speed advantage to our favor.
You can make tackling Chimera's easy, you can make Tackling sensor booster Chimera's easy, sure they won't perma run, but neither does the Thanatos because you only have CCC / CR x3.
The tackling sensor booster Chimera tanks a bit more dps than the Thanatos and will run its stuff for longer however.
You just dont use all PDUs.
Gallente damage race only? So why do a bunch of ships have a self repping bonus?
|
Lelulie
|
Posted - 2007.11.11 11:26:00 -
[55]
Originally by: Xeliya
Originally by: Random Womble
TBH one of the intial reasons there are so many thanny pilots is becauase carriers are drone boats and so instantly the thanny suited many older gallente while other races have had to train up alot especially the caldari. I admit that now other races are catching up but even now a large proportion of carrier pilots for other races are alts specifically trained for carriers. I personally know several people that chose to train for the chimera from the start, a few people that have trained the thanny and regretted it and no one that wants to train the nid unless they are allready minmatar.
I have yet to meet someone who regretted training a Thanny and cross trained over to a Chimera that use it regularly in combat, but it is not hard to find many that went from a Chimera to Thanny or Archon. As for people who choose to train for a Chimera from the start I have met very very few of them and that is usually because it means that have a care bear alt now (aka the Raven), if you want a tank you go Archon as it can perma run dual rep and have a point.
As for the Nid I will agree with as it is crap due to its CPU. Also no drone skills apply to fighters so I don't see how being good in a drone boat means you have less training time for a Carrier. Hell I have crap all around drone skills but I have fighters 5 because thats all that really matters TBH. If you need to drop heavies it means your drones are getting killed and you will be dropping T1 drones.
As for Thanny was a vet carrier thing, I sell carriers believe it or not. Best seller list is Thanny > Chimera > Archon > Niddy. So it is still the ship of choice and ship of choice by far considering I have always have a queue with 2 BPO's for it. Chimera is the next best due to all the carebear alts or new people who trained Caldari for PVE. Archons and Niddys sell about the same TBH or at least to the alliance I sell too on a regular basis. Sales over the last 3 months have been 14 Thanny's, 7 Chimera's, 3 Archon's and 1 Niddy. The Chimera and Thanny's usually run with 1 in the queue. Even CCP confirms this with that economic blog they did a while ago. If the Thanny is so bad why is it still the most used Capital? Why is the Nyx most used MS as it is the same bonus and slot layout is boosted the same as the other MS's.
You've used normal drones in your vids plenty, Fighters get killed, having poor drone skills doesn't exactly make you a poor one but it dosen't make you a very good one either. Carrier pilots should hev good drone skills, you have a massive bay and the baility to control many drones and be very versatile.
Alts train for a Thanatos because along the wya you have very nice complimentary skills and if you box you can assign drone dps without much multi-tasking.
Thanatos has a bonus to shield and armour transfer too making it great for being versatile, exactly what loads of ppl want for mains and alts, armour repping / shield repping friendlies or territory crap.
|
Reatu Krentor
Minmatar
Void Spiders
Fate Weavers
|
Posted - 2007.11.11 11:44:00 -
[56]
Originally by: Xeliya
Theory != fact, hence why it is theory. You also seem to forget that 25% only equates to 5% resistance as it stacks unlike the damage bonus.
Second time you say that and it's stupid.
25% resist means all incoming damage is reduced by 25%. In other words, effective hp increase of 33.33%, effective boost/repair increase of 33.33%(be it own or remote).
Sure it might look like 5% on 80% resist but that means the damage that does go through is reduced from 20% to 15%, a reduction of 25%.
Besides that stacking penalty does not apply on ship bonuses so you get the full effect regardless of any other hardeners.
-- stuff -- |
Morium Blue
Order of the Lost Souls
FOUNDATI0N
|
Posted - 2007.11.11 13:03:00 -
[57]
Originally by: Xeliya
Originally by: Daelin Blackleaf
Stuff
A normal Chimera will always have dual sensor boosters, any normal carrier will for that matter. Thus it's perma tankable DPS is 3668. Every carrier should have dual sensor boosters. In MC it is law. If you want a point so your target doesn't warp off each time you are now down to 2742. The Thanny can also have twice the amount of effective HP as the Chimera, which means if he is getting hit by a pack of dreads he will live longer and allow others to get reps on him.
If you want a tanking bonus to the Thanny and Niddy why don't we just make 1 type of Carrier, while we are at it 1 type of Battleship, and every other ship in the game.
Totally agree.
|
Morium Blue
Order of the Lost Souls
FOUNDATI0N
|
Posted - 2007.11.11 13:10:00 -
[58]
Some points:
- The Thanatos is the most popular carrier. The Nyx is the most popular mothership.
- Whilst faction fit bs can tank it anyway, given the tanking ability of t3 rigged bs, especially with some remote rep, there is a huge difference between 1500dps (other carriers) and 1875dps (thanatos).
- Quickfit isn't the same as in-the-field combat. In small gang pvp the Chimera needs sensor booster, scram and possibly web to survive if it has to fight its way out. In which case a small gang thana will out tank it. In fleet, the Thanatos can generate more cap for remote rep, and thus a group of them may out-tank chimeras.
- A full centus/chelm Thanatos is an awesome tank.
- Carriers are damage sinks and not often called first. It's handy to be able to do as much damage as possible in the time.
- Why do all ships need to be the same? If you want a tanking bonus, skill for an Archon or Chimera. They're great ships too. Each ship has its role. The Nidhoggur too.
|
Pociomundo
Gallente
Aliastra
|
Posted - 2007.11.11 13:11:00 -
[59]
Does anyone actually use 5 drone control units? if they do they are at a PoS so you just kill the support with Fighters assigned...
____________________________________________
|
Random Womble
Minmatar
Master Miners
Aftermath Alliance
|
Posted - 2007.11.11 16:51:00 -
[60]
Originally by: Xeliya
Originally by: Daelin Blackleaf
Stuff
If you want a tanking bonus to the Thanny and Niddy why don't we just make 1 type of Carrier, while we are at it 1 type of Battleship, and every other ship in the game.
Changing the slot layout on the nid is allready a step in the 1 type of carrier direction.
|
Daelin Blackleaf
Aliastra
|
Posted - 2007.11.11 19:21:00 -
[61]
Originally by: Xeliya
Your comparing apples to oranges there as they are 2 VERY different things. One is used for a job (military, swat, etc) and the other for aesthetics.
You could say the same thing about the Archon and the Nyx. 
Originally by: Xeliya
A normal Chimera will always have dual sensor boosters
In MC it is law.
A "normal" Chimera requires 2x SB, and disruptor? Perhaps for the way that MC uses carriers, but certainly not the way they were intended for use. Carriers are supposed to be support ships, not solopwnmobiles or part of capital blobs.
Originally by: Xeliya
I have NEVER seen a group of carriers us remote boosters
Looks like you've been in carrier blobs so long you've forgotten that most standard fleet ships have a spare high. Again you also confuse popular use with success. Just because not many people do it doesn't make it a bad idea.
When your flying as part of a carrier only group, sure, twin SB and tackling kit. But if your actually flying the ship as part of a normal fleet it becomes downright foolish to waste modules on one of your few capitals when your support can do the job better.
Originally by: Xeliya
Theory != fact, hence why it is theory. You also seem to forget that 25% only equates to 5% resistance as it stacks unlike the damage bonus.
Your basing the facts of your entire argument on the very specific way that MC uses their capitals, it may come as news to you but not every corp out there has access to dozens of capital pilots so this is not how they tend to be used by us mere mortals.
Also a theory is an idea of how things work without proof. The issues we are discussing here are not theory but fact backed up by easily obtained mathematical evidence that is obvious to anyone who doesn't consider fitting half your tanking slots with non-essential kit a good idea.
I believe you've already been called out on your mistake regarding the resistance bonus. You should also consider that while the Thans bonus applies only to itself the Chimera's bonus applies to every ship firing at it this is one reason why resistance bonuses tend to fare much batter than tanking bonuses of equal value. It never quite works out to be a +25% bonus of course since a tank is made up of many factors, more than one of which is affected by the bonus, leading the real benefit to typically be much higher. Basically resistance bonuses are flawed and it becomes more apparent the larger the ship is.
Originally by: Xeliya
If you want a tanking bonus to the Thanny and Niddy why don't we just make 1 type of Carrier, while we are at it 1 type of Battleship, and every other ship in the game.
The problem is, that unlike battleships, carriers share the exact same role, range, and weapon system. Balancing them without making them similar to each other would be very difficult. I'd personally prefer to see the Archon and Chimera's bonuses lowered rather than the Than and Nid's made similar so that they provide a similar effect or alternatively have an increase to the bonuses on the Nid and Than to equal their superiors.
When the extra tanking potential of the Chimera can be countered by the extra damage on the Than then you have a pair of balanced carriers.
|
Princess Jodi
Vendetta Underground
Rule of Three
|
Posted - 2007.11.12 15:57:00 -
[62]
While it would be nice for the Thanatos to have a better armor tank, I won't trade the Fighter damage for a better tank.
|
| |
|
| Pages: 1 2 3 :: [one page] |