Originally by: GM Tacgnol

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Oveur descended from the heavens (also known as the second floor) and beat us all with his nerfbat.

Originally by: ChimeraRouge

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Drones are overpowered sorry. NO.

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Originally by: Siigari Kitawa

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Originally by: ChimeraRouge

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Drones are overpowered sorry. NO.

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How about you back that up. How are drones overpowered?

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Originally by: Siigari Kitawa

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How about you back that up. How are drones overpowered?

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Originally by: Mystic Pete

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From what I understand there's going to be a load of new drone content in Rev3. Named / Faction drones, a better UI, New tactical commands / options. Oh and the bandwidth thing that allows more freedom with ship design and the ability to balance bandwidth/bay.

Are you saying none of this is good for drone users?

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Originally by: Elias Modron

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Originally by: Siigari Kitawa

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How about you back that up. How are drones overpowered?

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Drones themselves are not.

What's overpowered is medium-sized ships (e.g. the Myrmidon) using a large-sized weapons systems (i.e. heavy drones).

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Originally by: Thunderbird Anthares

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Edited by: Thunderbird Anthares on 06/11/2007 19:40:13
thats the
MOST
F*IN
FUNNIEST
thing i read today

Siigari,go die somewhere,far far away.

P.S.: im a gallente pilot

edit: im sorry for the people around you, you embarass them

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Originally by: Avon

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Originally by: Siigari Kitawa

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Originally by: ChimeraRouge

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Drones are overpowered sorry. NO.

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How about you back that up. How are drones overpowered?

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If they aren't, why are you so bothered about the changes?

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Originally by: Treyah

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I'm with the op on this, the myrm nerf is excessive

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Originally by: Siigari Kitawa

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Originally by: Elias Modron

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Originally by: Siigari Kitawa

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How about you back that up. How are drones overpowered?

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Drones themselves are not.

What's overpowered is medium-sized ships (e.g. the Myrmidon) using a large-sized weapons systems (i.e. heavy drones).

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This is going to be in large text so everybody sees it and it burns into their brains:

The Myrmidon is NOT a medium sized ship.

The battlecruisers combine battleship sized elements and cruiser sized elements to create something in the middle. It is perfectly legitimate that they are allowed to carry battleship sized weapons, then sacrifice some other things such as POWERGRID if they want to fit more guns.

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Originally by: ChimeraRouge

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Drones are overpowered sorry. NO.

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Originally by: Karlemgne

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I also want to point out the fault of your logic more clearly for you:

Friend 1: "My boss told me my wages were going to be cut from $10 and $7.50"
Friend 2: "Heh, you were way over paid anyway."
Friend 1: "What do you mean I was overpaid? I'm supporting a family of three on that salary and live in the ghetto!"
Friend 2: "Well, if you weren't over paid, why are you complaining about getting a pay cut?"

That's essentially what you just argued.

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Originally by: Siigari Kitawa

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How is that "fair"? Drones are simply shootable guns. I have gotten in so many droneboat vs droneboat fights and the first thing I have to do is target and shoot down the hostile's drones to get the fight on my side.

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Originally by: Karlemgne

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You can be bothered by the changes to a game for many reasons other than the thing being changed is "overpowered." You could, for instance, like game mechanics like they are because you think they are balanced. You could think drones are underpowered. You could just not like the concept of "bandwidth." Etc, etc, etc...

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Originally by: Imperator Jora'h

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Dedicated drone boats essentially have two primary weapon systems. As a result you saw ships like the NOS Domi. It didn't need guns...just drain you dry and wail on you with drones. Of course NOS got nerfed as a result but you still have the issue. Your Domi is blasting away at me with guns and drones and I have to somehow drop your drone leaving your main ship essentially untouched. No one else can do this (at least their drones are a minor enough threat that they can be ignored to an extent).

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Originally by: Siigari Kitawa

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The Myrmidon is NOT a medium sized ship.

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Originally by: Siigari Kitawa

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The Myrmidon is NOT a medium sized ship.

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Originally by: Chaos Space Marines

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Do you hear the voices, too?!?!

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Originally by: Siigari Kitawa

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Edited by: Siigari Kitawa on 06/11/2007 19:57:37

Originally by: Imperator Jora'h

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Dedicated drone boats essentially have two primary weapon systems. As a result you saw ships like the NOS Domi. It didn't need guns...just drain you dry and wail on you with drones. Of course NOS got nerfed as a result but you still have the issue. Your Domi is blasting away at me with guns and drones and I have to somehow drop your drone leaving your main ship essentially untouched. No one else can do this (at least their drones are a minor enough threat that they can be ignored to an extent).

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This argument is flawed.

While you're taking out the Dominix's drones, you are INCREASING your tank. Every time you can take away damage, that essentially BOOSTS your ability to take damage.

Think about it. I posted it earlier.

When you take out a ships' dedicated drones, you do this:

Drone 1: 20% damage reduction.

Drone 2: 25% damage reduction

Drone 3: 33% damage reduction

Drone 4: 50% damage reduction

Drone 5: 100% damage reduction

You exponentially get a better tank.

Once the target has no ability to damage you, kill him.

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Originally by: Siigari Kitawa

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Edited by: Siigari Kitawa on 06/11/2007 19:57:37

Originally by: Imperator Jora'h

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Dedicated drone boats essentially have two primary weapon systems. As a result you saw ships like the NOS Domi. It didn't need guns...just drain you dry and wail on you with drones. Of course NOS got nerfed as a result but you still have the issue. Your Domi is blasting away at me with guns and drones and I have to somehow drop your drone leaving your main ship essentially untouched. No one else can do this (at least their drones are a minor enough threat that they can be ignored to an extent).

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This argument is flawed.

While you're taking out the Dominix's drones, you are INCREASING your tank. Every time you can take away damage, that essentially BOOSTS your ability to take damage.

Think about it. I posted it earlier.

When you take out a ships' dedicated drones, you do this:

Drone 1: 20% damage reduction.

Drone 2: 25% damage reduction

Drone 3: 33% damage reduction

Drone 4: 50% damage reduction

Drone 5: 100% damage reduction

You exponentially get a better tank.

Once the target has no ability to damage you, kill him.

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Originally by: Liisa

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Originally by: Siigari Kitawa

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Edited by: Siigari Kitawa on 06/11/2007 19:57:37

Originally by: Imperator Jora'h

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Dedicated drone boats essentially have two primary weapon systems. As a result you saw ships like the NOS Domi. It didn't need guns...just drain you dry and wail on you with drones. Of course NOS got nerfed as a result but you still have the issue. Your Domi is blasting away at me with guns and drones and I have to somehow drop your drone leaving your main ship essentially untouched. No one else can do this (at least their drones are a minor enough threat that they can be ignored to an extent).

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This argument is flawed.

While you're taking out the Dominix's drones, you are INCREASING your tank. Every time you can take away damage, that essentially BOOSTS your ability to take damage.

Think about it. I posted it earlier.

When you take out a ships' dedicated drones, you do this:

Drone 1: 20% damage reduction.

Drone 2: 25% damage reduction

Drone 3: 33% damage reduction

Drone 4: 50% damage reduction

Drone 5: 100% damage reduction

You exponentially get a better tank.

Once the target has no ability to damage you, kill him.

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Riiight....

I must have missed the dev blog where they gave the domi and myrm 0 turret and 0 launcher hardpoints.

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Originally by: Siigari Kitawa

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I said dedicated.

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Originally by: Liisa

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Originally by: Siigari Kitawa

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I said dedicated.

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Guess what, when you shoot my tempests dedicated heavy drones, you are reducing the drone damage by even more. Take a look at this:

First drone killed: 33.3% damage reduction

Second drone killed: 66.6% damage reduction

Third drone killed: 100% damage reduction

See, it is even worse.

(Argument assuming that ships cannot fit anything but drones)

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Originally by: Shiner BockBeer

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Wow, that's some serious frothing at the mouth you've got going there.

The drone rev will make drone ships better, not worse.

Settle down.

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Originally by: Jenny Spitfire

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Dehumanisation - griefers are cool and if you are not a griefer, you do not belong here.

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Originally by: Siigari Kitawa

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But a Tempest was not DESIGNED (note I said DESIGNED) for drones.

Does it have a drone bonus of any kind?

Does it have a massive drone bay to support being a ship that would be viable if it were to use only drones?

No. So that argument is faulty as well. We drone users train our droneskills up to their maximum to get the maximum potential out of them, as you your guns. That's just the way it is.

Also realize, as it's been said, drones even out by limiting the ship's ability to have a good tank AND the proper guns.

A Tempest, for example can easily fit a decent tank and a full rack of guns. A Dominix cannot easily fit a good tank AND guns AND drones.

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Originally by: Siigari Kitawa

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Show me how it makes them BETTER

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Originally by: Imperator Jora'h

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It is this part right here.

Dedicated drone boats essentially have two primary weapon systems. As a result you saw ships like the NOS Domi. It didn't need guns...just drain you dry and wail on you with drones. Of course NOS got nerfed as a result but you still have the issue. Your Domi is blasting away at me with guns and drones and I have to somehow drop your drone leaving your main ship essentially untouched. No one else can do this (at least their drones are a minor enough threat that they can be ignored to an extent).

The end result is other ships are at a serious disadvantage. Smaller ships get eaten alive by drones and bigger ships have a hard time killing them. Guns will not track them, smartbombs are useful but hard to fit and fire, their own drones are disadvantaged versus the droneboats drones (they lack the bonuses).

There is a reason Gallente ships are so popular in battle and drones are the main reason.

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Originally by: Phantom Slave

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I'll let you have your large drones in your myrmidon, the day I get to use a full rack of tachyon's or mega-pulse's on my Harbinger. Until then, don't even try to argue that it isn't a medium-class ship. It's a slightly larger Cruiser, but it's still smaller than a Battleship.

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Originally by: PCaBoo

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Well then, I suppose SB's should be removed completely from the game. They are frigates with bs sized weapons! OMG!

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Originally by: PCaBoo

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Each ship gets different bonuses... I spent a long time training my drone skills (while neglecting my gunnery) to be a good drone user. You're saying because I can use drones well and my ship gives a bonus for it, that all my training should be nerfed because you fly a different ship with different strengths?! That's absurd. Drones are not overpowered. I have 6.5msp in drones. I have bc5, bs5, and I can't even come close to breaking a drakes passive tank, solo (in my myrm or domi). Do you think that's fair?

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Originally by: Phantom Slave

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And yet SB's were designed to use those weapons. Myrmidon's weren't designed to use BS sized weapons, just like every other BC isn't designed to use BS sized weapons. Taking an exception to the rule doesn't make every other exception true. If BC's were supposed to use BS sized weapons, we'd have a ton more powergrid, CPU, Cap, and Bonuses for them.

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Originally by: PCaBoo

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People need to stop being whiny asshats about losing in fights. Instead of asking for CCP to nerf everything to try and make yourself uber, why not try adapting to the problems you face. Hell, you people are always the ones telling us to adapt to changes. Hypocritical *******s.

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Originally by: PCaBoo

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Well then I suppose all long range ships w/o a bonus to range/falloff should be nerfed, since they were not intended to be snipers. Get a grip.

I can't take this nonsense anymore. I can't wait til someone whines about something you specialize in, and you feel the nerfbat. It'll be even better when you come to cry on the forums about it, but there won't be anyone here to hear your cries, since most of the playerbase will be gone.

I think it's funny how people describe this game. You never get the same answer twice, cuz every month the game is changed to suit someone else.

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Originally by: PCaBoo

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Well then I suppose all long range ships w/o a bonus to range/falloff should be nerfed, since they were not intended to be snipers. Get a grip.

I can't take this nonsense anymore. I can't wait til someone whines about something you specialize in, and you feel the nerfbat. It'll be even better when you come to cry on the forums about it, but there won't be anyone here to hear your cries, since most of the playerbase will be gone.

I think it's funny how people describe this game. You never get the same answer twice, cuz every month the game is changed to suit someone else.

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Originally by: Imperator Jora'h

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That you chose to ignore guns is your own lookout.

The fact remains that Gallente essentially get two primary weapon systems on some of their ships. I would go with your assessment if ALL a drone ship could use for offense was drones but that is not the case. The Domi gets a bonus to guns and a DOUBLE bonus to drones! Most everyone else gets a primary weapon and a secondary in their drones.

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Originally by: Liisa

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Originally by: PCaBoo

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People need to stop being whiny asshats about losing in fights. Instead of asking for CCP to nerf everything to try and make yourself uber, why not try adapting to the problems you face. Hell, you people are always the ones telling us to adapt to changes. Hypocritical *******s.

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I take exception to that. I am a diehard minmatar pilot who has rolled with a lot of punches. I have trained drones over 2.5 mil sps, missiles over 2.5 mil etc etc. I have specialized in everything minmatar, including the faction ships and, quite honestly, have enjoyed them even when they were considered rubbish. Concentrating on one thing to the degree that you have done means you are open to being hit hard by a (in this case needed) nerf, while I just shrug and continue to plod on. You see, I can adapt because I have my skillpoints spread around enough. You, being so heavily specced on drones, cannot.

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Originally by: Jaggeh

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i love when people jump the gun on new changes

straight from the devs at fanfest
the only two ships that will lose the ability to field 5 large drones are....
EOS
and
MYRMIDON

and they will be getting enhanced drone bay size so they can carry extra waves.

the ishkur is dropping to 25m/bit but drone bay size with max skills will be 50 so it can carry 2 waves of light drones.

plus with all the new named drones and new drone interface we droners are really on the receiving end of much love.

now stop crying and adapt or die....

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Originally by: PCaBoo

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Originally by: Liisa

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Originally by: PCaBoo

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People need to stop being whiny asshats about losing in fights. Instead of asking for CCP to nerf everything to try and make yourself uber, why not try adapting to the problems you face. Hell, you people are always the ones telling us to adapt to changes. Hypocritical *******s.

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I take exception to that. I am a diehard minmatar pilot who has rolled with a lot of punches. I have trained drones over 2.5 mil sps, missiles over 2.5 mil etc etc. I have specialized in everything minmatar, including the faction ships and, quite honestly, have enjoyed them even when they were considered rubbish. Concentrating on one thing to the degree that you have done means you are open to being hit hard by a (in this case needed) nerf, while I just shrug and continue to plod on. You see, I can adapt because I have my skillpoints spread around enough. You, being so heavily specced on drones, cannot.

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I am Gallente/Caldari Specced. I didn't put all my eggs in one basket. However, I find it ridiculous how everytime I train something to use it well, that it's nerfed.

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Originally by: Kolwrath

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Uhh yes it is buddy. Sorry but you're wrong. Can I fit Large guns on a BC? no? how about a LAR? ... no? ...hmmmm oh yes thats right : You don't know what you are talking about.


Anyone know what the OP is complaining about anyways? I read the post but ... I dont see what got his panties all in a knot.

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Originally by: Tadehiro

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Originally by: Kolwrath

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Uhh yes it is buddy. Sorry but you're wrong. Can I fit Large guns on a BC? no? how about a LAR? ... no? ...hmmmm oh yes thats right : You don't know what you are talking about.


Anyone know what the OP is complaining about anyways? I read the post but ... I dont see what got his panties all in a knot.

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<.< you do realize this just means that a Myrmidon and vexor have almost essentially the same firepower now?

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Originally by: Chaos Space Marines

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Do you hear the voices, too?!?!

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Originally by: Odda

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hey im a gonnie and i like to sue CCP to gett the game to my favor

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Originally by: "..."

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Gallente tears fuel my will to live.

I love CCP.

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Originally by: Siigari Kitawa

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Edited by: Siigari Kitawa on 06/11/2007 19:39:17

Originally by: Mystic Pete

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From what I understand there's going to be a load of new drone content in Rev3. Named / Faction drones, a better UI, New tactical commands / options. Oh and the bandwidth thing that allows more freedom with ship design and the ability to balance bandwidth/bay.

Are you saying none of this is good for drone users?

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It would be awesome if they kept the dronebays the same.

It makes it so the new drones are a real boost to the drone players.

But let's say they gave me new faction drones, ok.

A faction drone does 20% more damage than a normal drone. But my Myrmidon can only carry 4 heavies. So it EVENS it out and costs ME more money.

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Originally by: Siigari Kitawa

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The Myrmidon is NOT a medium sized ship.

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Originally by: Phantom Slave

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Originally by: PCaBoo

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Well then, I suppose SB's should be removed completely from the game. They are frigates with bs sized weapons! OMG!

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And yet SB's were designed to use those weapons. Myrmidon's weren't designed to use BS sized weapons, just like every other BC isn't designed to use BS sized weapons. Taking an exception to the rule doesn't make every other exception true. If BC's were supposed to use BS sized weapons, we'd have a ton more powergrid, CPU, Cap, and Bonuses for them.

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Originally by: PCaBoo

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Originally by: Imperator Jora'h

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That you chose to ignore guns is your own lookout.

The fact remains that Gallente essentially get two primary weapon systems on some of their ships. I would go with your assessment if ALL a drone ship could use for offense was drones but that is not the case. The Domi gets a bonus to guns and a DOUBLE bonus to drones! Most everyone else gets a primary weapon and a secondary in their drones.

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Tier 1 Gal BS (Domi)
http://www.eve-online.com/itemdatabase/EN/ships/battleships/gallente/645.asp
Tier 1 Amarr BS (Geddon)
http://www.eve-online.com/itemdatabase/EN/ships/battleships/amarr/643.asp

Let me get this straight; you get (i'm assuming you're amarr) 7 turrets, cap bonus, ROF bonus, a large enough drone bay for 5 heavies, and a large enough PG to support all of that, but it's fair that I only have 6 turret slots (with a very inadequate grid), and a 5% damage bonus?

Well actually, it is fair... So why do drones need to be nerfed? You get the ability to fit an extra turret for increased dmg, a ROF bonus, less cap usage, and an 8th hi-slot for a SB or nos/neut (whatever the hell you want). Drones aren't motherships. They don't just land on you and wtfpwn everything. They have tracking and speed issues as well. They don't hit everything all the time. They're easily destroyed with a little thought and effort. They are useless at distance, they require you to have something locked to engage (unless they're out already when you fire) and in any case, if you're jammed you have no control over what they're really doing.

Nothing has truly changed in a long time in regards to ships and drones and it wasn't overpowered back then, so why the hell is it overpowered now? Cuz more people use them (effectively)? Because your ship isn't as versatile as others? Because people can't use their heads to setup ships that work well?

Who knows, i'm tired of defending my eve-life. I've already given up on this game. When my subs run out next month, i'll be moving on (and no you can't have my stuff, i'm selling my char's and giving the isk to a friend). I can't keep playing a game that changes so radically every month.

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Originally by: Augeas

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The number of Gallenteasymoders who don't realise that their droneboats have turret slots never ceases to amaze me. Or that while we're trying to grind through their drones, we're not shooting their ship.

Or that damp/scoop/deploy, with the correct timing, is really rather effective at keeping drones alive (smartbombs are suicide in highsec wars , gimp your DPS anyway and are really just a self-neuting module when used against high-HP drones. And FOFs are... unreliable.).

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Originally by: Duckeye

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Just play as minmatar like me, it seems the nerf bat cannot recognize the color of brown.

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Originally by: Haks'he Lirky

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sooo

my six blaster myrmidon with 5 heavy drones is not overpowered at all compared to other tier 2 battlecruisers?

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Originally by: Kolwrath

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Yeah no, your wrong. Had you actually ever flown a vexor or a Myrm you would not say that. Had you actually any idea about the subject, you would not say that.

Case in point:

Vexor: 4 turret hardpoints
Myrmidon: 6 turrent hardpoints

Vexor: Enough grid to fit electrons, or ions with max skills and a shoe horn.
Myrmidon: Enough grid to fit Ions or Neutrons with max skills and a shoe horn.

So to recap:
Vexor DPS < Myrmidon DPS.
Therefore your wrong. You do not know what you are talking about. You fail.

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Originally by: Xaldor

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Ishtar on Singularity has 125m3 drone capacity and 125m/s bandwidth, it has not been changed. It is still an abomination. It still has access to battleship equivalent weapons on a cruiser size ship which is still out of balance. It would be equivalent of letting Caldari cruisers field 5x Torps. There is no logical reason a ship of this size/class can inflict that much damage.

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Originally by: Xaldor

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I think CCP took a cheap and easy path to fixing Drones, adding bandwidth was a step in the right direction but they botched it in my opinion.

Ships should have a bandwidth rating of 5, 10, 15, 20, 25, 30 or 35.

5 allows you to use T1 Lights.
10 allows you to use T2 Lights or below.
15 allows you to use T1 Mediums or below.
20 allows you to use T2 Mediums or below.
25 allows you to use T1 Heavies/Sentries or below.
30 allows you to use T2 Heavies/Sentries or below.
35 allows you to use Fighters or below.

T1 Frigates should be limited to bandwidth of 5.
T2 Frigates should be limited to bandwidth of 10.
T1 Cruisers should be limited to bandwidth of 15.
T2 Cruisers should be limited to bandwidth of 20.
T1&T2 Battlecruisers should be limited to bandwidth of 20.
T1 Battleships should be limited to bandwidth of 30.
Only Carriers would have a bandwidth of 35.

T1 Lights should require 5m3, T2 Lights should require 10m3
T1 Mediums Should require 15m3, T2 Mediums should require 20m3
T1 Heavies should require 25m3, T2 Heavies should require 50m3

The major difference between Drone ships and non-drone ships should be drone bonuses. You can then differentiate what ships can use by bandwidth and capacity.

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Originally by: Haks'he Lirky

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sooo

my six blaster myrmidon with 5 heavy drones is not overpowered at all compared to other tier 2 battlecruisers?

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Quote:

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Ok .. kill the drones then what does this myrm do? Oh no... that would require thought or tactics instead of crying nerf...

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Originally by: Phantom Slave

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Originally by: PCaBoo

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Well then, I suppose SB's should be removed completely from the game. They are frigates with bs sized weapons! OMG!

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And yet SB's were designed to use those weapons. Myrmidon's weren't designed to use BS sized weapons,

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Originally by: Brianna Talnor

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... With Bandwidth you are going to be firing waves of drones at the enemy that are replaceable when the enemy kills them.

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Originally by: Sandzibarr

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most droneships can fly 3 waves of the drones size they should logically be using... if you want to pack larger drones and reduce your backups then thats your risk mate.

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Originally by: Sandzibarr

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Edited by: Sandzibarr on 07/11/2007 12:24:17

Ok i feel your pain that we are being reduced back down to 2 'heavy' drone ships - ishtar and domi.. now that the eos is brought inline with the other Fleet Commands (ie made sh*t).

Maybe they should have kept its dronebay the same size and just reduced the turrets down to 2.. but then that still wouldnt fill the role its required to do in fleets any better.

But like i said above.. we're just going to have to wait until tier2 field commands are created. Though this new T2 BlackOp Domi, the Sin, might be worth looking at.

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Originally by: Venkul Mul

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Using the same logic I suppose you want to limit T1 frigates or cruisers to T1 guns or missiles, and as we are there ban all the T2 modules from T1 ships.

Or it is a special bonus for drone only to be banned from T1 ships?

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Originally by: Retnik

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/rant
Even 5x heavy drones with a maxed out drone damage bonus is no wheres near battleship class weapon dps. And especially un-bonused heavy drones like on the Eos, they are meh at best. If heavy drones can achieve the dps of a battleship gun, or allow me to fit drone damage mods then I will agree.

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Originally by: Jenea

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Why don't you go look at the DPS on five torpedoes, then look at the DPS on five Ogre IIs, and then get back to us with the results? You really think that the Ishtar should only run five medium drones?

Don't assume just because there are three sizes of drones and three sizes of guns, that the two are relative -- unless, maybe, the Ishtar had a 200% drone damage bonus and was restricted to "cruiser sized drones." Better yet, 250% since the drone user doesn't have access to faction modules or implants.

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Originally by: SirMollle

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Stop training FOTM!!!!!!!

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Originally by: Gabriel Magnar

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Every other thing has been getting named stuff, even more skills, rigs and modules etc but drone ones are far and few in between.

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Originally by: Avon

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Originally by: Gabriel Magnar

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Every other thing has been getting named stuff, even more skills, rigs and modules etc but drone ones are far and few in between.

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I guess you missed all the drone stuff announced at Fanfest then?

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Originally by: Frederick Lyrus

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In conclusion, a Raven with T2 cruise missiles, good skills and three damage mods has a dps of about 500. An Ishtar with 5x Ogre II's and good skills has a dps of close to 600. And you're claiming these aren't BS weapons?

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Originally by: Frederick Lyrus

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Originally by: Jenea

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Why don't you go look at the DPS on five torpedoes, then look at the DPS on five Ogre IIs, and then get back to us with the results? You really think that the Ishtar should only run five medium drones?

Don't assume just because there are three sizes of drones and three sizes of guns, that the two are relative -- unless, maybe, the Ishtar had a 200% drone damage bonus and was restricted to "cruiser sized drones." Better yet, 250% since the drone user doesn't have access to faction modules or implants.

---

I did cruise missiles as per your statement on the previous page. I do not think these numbers mean what you think they mean.

Let's assume a competent T2 pilot. He's got his dps support skills to V and his spec to IV. The missile pilot has his RoF skill to V and the drone pilot has Drone Interfacing V.

A cruise missile does 300 dmg * 1.1 (warhead upgrades) * 1.25 (cruise missiles) / (17.6 (launcher RoF) * 0.92 (spec) * 0.9 (missile ops) * 0.85 (rapid launch). This works out at 33.3 dps per launcher.

An Ogre II does 24 dmg * 1.92 (dmg multiplier) * 1.25 (combat drone) * 1.25 (Hvy drone ops) * 1.08 (spec) * 2 (Interfacing) / 2 (RoF). Or 77.76 dps per drone.

The Raven gets 6 launchers to the Ishtar's 5 Heavy drones. That's about 20% more dps in total. Pretending that launcher is a bonus to the other five rather than a launcher in and of itself brings the Raven up to 39.96 dps per launcher.

Ship bonuses, the Raven gets 5% RoF per level, at V that's a multiplier of 1.33. The Ishtar gets 10% drone dmg per level, or a multipler of 1.5 at V. That's 53.15 vs 116.64.

Let's give the Raven some BCS II, three of them is normal. 10% dmg, 10.5% Rof, that's a multiplier of 1.23 per module. I can't be bothered with stacking penalty so with three of them that's 53.15 * 1.23^3 which is 98.68 dps per launcher.

In conclusion, a Raven with T2 cruise missiles, good skills and three damage mods has a dps of about 500. An Ishtar with 5x Ogre II's and good skills has a dps of close to 600. And you're claiming these aren't BS weapons?

And just to cover myself there's a bit more that can be factored into this that I've ignored for simplicity, Raven does get to pick his damage colour which can up his effective dps. He also has trouble hitting anything going over 1km/s or with a sig less than 225 (like, picking an example at random here, the Ishtar).

---

Originally by: Avon

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Originally by: Gabriel Magnar

---

Every other thing has been getting named stuff, even more skills, rigs and modules etc but drone ones are far and few in between.

---

I guess you missed all the drone stuff announced at Fanfest then?

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Originally by: Siigari Kitawa

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baseless whine

---

Originally by: Litheye

---

Originally by: Siigari Kitawa

---

baseless whine

---

look at how **** you are

---

Originally by: Siigari Kitawa

---

Originally by: Litheye

---

Originally by: Siigari Kitawa

---

baseless whine

---

look at how **** you are

---

Thanks for being constructive.

---

Originally by: GM Tacgnol

---

Oveur descended from the heavens (also known as the second floor) and beat us all with his nerfbat.

Originally by: Gypsio III

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Quote:

---

Ok .. kill the drones then what does this myrm do? Oh no... that would require thought or tactics instead of crying nerf...

---

Oh dear. Thought and tactics, indeed.

That Myrm can fit six guns. Whilst you're grinding through the drones, those 6 blasters are grinding your tank down, and you're doing zero damage to the Myrm.

Also, shooting those drones is bloody hard when they're being scooped and redeployed, and you have a damped lock time of about 15 seconds on them.

---

Originally by: Kendar Zek

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Originally by: Frederick Lyrus

---

Originally by: Jenea

---

Why don't you go look at the DPS on five torpedoes, then look at the DPS on five Ogre IIs, and then get back to us with the results? You really think that the Ishtar should only run five medium drones?

Don't assume just because there are three sizes of drones and three sizes of guns, that the two are relative -- unless, maybe, the Ishtar had a 200% drone damage bonus and was restricted to "cruiser sized drones." Better yet, 250% since the drone user doesn't have access to faction modules or implants.

---

I did cruise missiles as per your statement on the previous page. I do not think these numbers mean what you think they mean.

Let's assume a competent T2 pilot. He's got his dps support skills to V and his spec to IV. The missile pilot has his RoF skill to V and the drone pilot has Drone Interfacing V.

A cruise missile does 300 dmg * 1.1 (warhead upgrades) * 1.25 (cruise missiles) / (17.6 (launcher RoF) * 0.92 (spec) * 0.9 (missile ops) * 0.85 (rapid launch). This works out at 33.3 dps per launcher.

An Ogre II does 24 dmg * 1.92 (dmg multiplier) * 1.25 (combat drone) * 1.25 (Hvy drone ops) * 1.08 (spec) * 2 (Interfacing) / 2 (RoF). Or 77.76 dps per drone.

The Raven gets 6 launchers to the Ishtar's 5 Heavy drones. That's about 20% more dps in total. Pretending that launcher is a bonus to the other five rather than a launcher in and of itself brings the Raven up to 39.96 dps per launcher.

Ship bonuses, the Raven gets 5% RoF per level, at V that's a multiplier of 1.33. The Ishtar gets 10% drone dmg per level, or a multipler of 1.5 at V. That's 53.15 vs 116.64.

Let's give the Raven some BCS II, three of them is normal. 10% dmg, 10.5% Rof, that's a multiplier of 1.23 per module. I can't be bothered with stacking penalty so with three of them that's 53.15 * 1.23^3 which is 98.68 dps per launcher.

In conclusion, a Raven with T2 cruise missiles, good skills and three damage mods has a dps of about 500. An Ishtar with 5x Ogre II's and good skills has a dps of close to 600. And you're claiming these aren't BS weapons?

And just to cover myself there's a bit more that can be factored into this that I've ignored for simplicity, Raven does get to pick his damage colour which can up his effective dps. He also has trouble hitting anything going over 1km/s or with a sig less than 225 (like, picking an example at random here, the Ishtar).

---

Comparing a T1 ship to a T2 ship is always going to work out in the T2 ship's advantage. You could probably find a way that an assault frigate is better than a T1 battleship. That's why the devs put T2 crap in the game - it makes the old stuff obsolete and creates an ISK sink that works in favor of the players who already had all the best of T1, so they can afford to get into T2.

Compare a Raven to a Dominix, if you want this to be apples to apples.

---

Originally by: CCP Nozh

---

Generally I'd never reply to a post like this, since it's basically a huge rant, but I'll spare you some of my words.

The point of the bandwidth change was to be able to balance drone boats better, especially smaller class ships.

These are the changes we've done with bandwidth, all other ships have the same bandwidth as their dronebay:

* Ishkur: 25Mbit/s bandwidth, 25m3 + 5m3/level drone bay
* Vexor: 75Mbit/s bandwidth, 100m3 dronebay
* Ishtar: 125Mbit/s bandwidth, no change in dronebay
* Arbitrator, Curse, Pilgrim: 50 Mbit/s bandwidth, 150m3 dronebay
* Myrmidon: 75Mbit/s bandwidth, 150m3 dronebay
* Eos: 75Mbit/s bandwidth, 150m3 + 15m3/level dronebay

You can see the trend here really, we've decreased damage output of some of the more "overpowered" ships but instead increased their ability to sustain their damage output.

PS. I'm never replying to a thread like this again. Keep them constructive and you might receive some feedback.

---

Originally by: CCP Nozh

---

Generally I'd never reply to a post like this, since it's basically a huge rant, but I'll spare you some of my words.

The point of the bandwidth change was to be able to balance drone boats better, especially smaller class ships.

These are the changes we've done with bandwidth, all other ships have the same bandwidth as their dronebay:

* Ishkur: 25Mbit/s bandwidth, 25m3 + 5m3/level drone bay
* Vexor: 75Mbit/s bandwidth, 100m3 dronebay
* Ishtar: 125Mbit/s bandwidth, no change in dronebay
* Arbitrator, Curse, Pilgrim: 50 Mbit/s bandwidth, 150m3 dronebay
* Myrmidon: 75Mbit/s bandwidth, 150m3 dronebay
* Eos: 75Mbit/s bandwidth, 150m3 + 15m3/level dronebay

You can see the trend here really, we've decreased damage output of some of the more "overpowered" ships but instead increased their ability to sustain their damage output.

PS. I'm never replying to a thread like this again. Keep them constructive and you might receive some feedback.

---

Originally by: Phantom Slave

---

Why do you guys care that they nerfed your drones, anyway? We're just going to kill them

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Originally by: Retnik

---

But you all did it in a stupid way.

---

Originally by: Retnik

---

They are NOT battleship class weapons

---

Originally by: Retnik

---

6x Siege II (rage): 574
6x Siege II 2x BCU (rage): 844

---

Originally by: Retnik

---

5x Ogre II on a myrmidon: 475
5x Ogre II 6x Heavy Neutron II (eft warriors ftw? lol): 766 <<< here's where we get over the top
5x Ogre II 3x Neutron II: 621
5x Berserker II (Because we all don't use Ogres): 386
5x Ogre II on an Eos: 317

---

Originally by: Retnik

---

I can safely conclude based on damage numbers stripping off some turrets from a myrmidon and leaving it's heavy drones alone balance the dps of these ships.

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Originally by: Retnik

---

Most of us are asking to leave the drones alone. If we wanted to fit a blaster bc we would fly the brutix for damn sure.

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Originally by: Chaos Space Marines

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Do you hear the voices, too?!?!

---

Originally by: CCP Wrangler

---

Second, a gentile is a non jewish person

---

Originally by: Kolwrath

---

Originally by: Retnik

---

But you all did it in a stupid way.

---

K you need to give CCP more respect and ditch the smack. Your not helping your case by starting out with essencially: "CCP IS STUPID". You're just making yourself look like another troll / rant-bear.

Originally by: Retnik

---

They are NOT battleship class weapons

---

Yes they are. Light drones are for frigates, medium drones are for cruisers, heavy drones are for battlships. The Myrm is a battlecruiser. It is designed as an anti cruiser platform. Therefore it should only field cruiser sized drones. Check the signature radius on heavy drones and compare them with the signature radiuses of battleships. You might notice some similarities. Shesh.

Originally by: Retnik

---

6x Siege II (rage): 574
6x Siege II 2x BCU (rage): 844

---

Ok your way off target here. The point originally made was that only battleships can carry battleship class weapons. Then somebody counter pointed that the specialty ship of Stealth bombers could field Seige launchers. I see his point, but that person forgot that Stealth Bombers are a nich ship and to counter thier firepower they have no tank and are made of tinfoil. The myrm tanks very well. Not only does it tank very well, it can be setup as a NOS/NET BBQ or BLASTER/ORGEII BBQ boat at the same time. It is overpowered because of that.

(I have no clue why your bringing BCU's into this.)

Originally by: Retnik

---

5x Ogre II on a myrmidon: 475
5x Ogre II 6x Heavy Neutron II (eft warriors ftw? lol): 766 <<< here's where we get over the top
5x Ogre II 3x Neutron II: 621
5x Berserker II (Because we all don't use Ogres): 386
5x Ogre II on an Eos: 317

---

Yes That is why the Myrm is over the top. Heavy drones + 6 turrent hardpoints is overpowered. Not only can the ship have pretty darn high DPS, it can also tank VERY well.

Originally by: Retnik

---

I can safely conclude based on damage numbers stripping off some turrets from a myrmidon and leaving it's heavy drones alone balance the dps of these ships.

---

I agree with you on this point. Stripping of turrets (well not turrets, stripping high slots right off .. otherwise the utility slots will just get filled with NOS/Neuts) would put balance back into the Myrm. The people in this thread are not open to any changes to the Myrm. They have thier specailsed FOTM setup and are too stuborn to admit that the myrm is overpower and somehow it needs to be nerfed.

CCP could have chopped off some high slots, reduced grid, or something else, but they chose to chop off bandwith. You may not like it but that is the choice they made. Accept it. Its not set in stone, they may change it later.

Originally by: Retnik

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Most of us are asking to leave the drones alone. If we wanted to fit a blaster bc we would fly the brutix for damn sure.

---

That is not the impression I got from this thread. The impression I got was that of many Myrm pilots sticking thier fingers in thier ears, stomping thier feet and screaming "DONT TOUCH MY SHIP!".

(Yes I am implying that they are all bieng VERY immature about it.)

---

Originally by: Kolwrath

---

Ok your way off target here. The point originally made was that only battleships can carry battleship class weapons. Then somebody counter pointed that the specialty ship of Stealth bombers could field Seige launchers. I see his point, but that person forgot that Stealth Bombers are a nich ship and to counter thier firepower they have no tank and are made of tinfoil. The myrm tanks very well. Not only does it tank very well, it can be setup as a NOS/NET BBQ or BLASTER/ORGEII BBQ boat at the same time. It is overpowered because of that.
about it.)

---

Originally by: PCaBoo

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Show me a max skilled myrm pilot that can beat a well skilled bs pilot.

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Originally by: Phantom Slave

---

Originally by: PCaBoo

---

Show me a max skilled myrm pilot that can beat a well skilled bs pilot.

---

Why are you justifying the need for large drones, when you're comparing a BC fighting against a BS? I'm just curious as to why you feel the need to be able to kill BS's in your BC, when the BC is built as an anti-Cruiser ship.

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Originally by: Phantom Slave

---

I believe all of the pro-change (read: nerf) people are arguing that the Myrm is a BC, and can kill other BC's without a problem.

Hence the nerf.

---

Originally by: Phantom Slave

---

I believe all of the pro-change (read: nerf) people are arguing that the Myrm is a BC, and can kill other BC's without a problem.

Hence the nerf.

---

Originally by: Retnik

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Originally by: Phantom Slave

---

I believe all of the pro-change (read: nerf) people are arguing that the Myrm is a BC, and can kill other BC's without a problem.

Hence the nerf.

---

If you have ever actually played this game you would understand how stupid this is. Do you know how fast a hurricane pops a ogre II? A skilled pilot in any tier 2 BC can go toe to toe with a myrmidon and most of the time win if they play to its weakness. If you target, approach, f1-fwhatever you will lose to this ship every time. The heavy drones are fine, drop some turrets and make it a little harder to fit ffs.

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Originally by: Retnik

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Originally by: Phantom Slave

---

I believe all of the pro-change (read: nerf) people are arguing that the Myrm is a BC, and can kill other BC's without a problem.

Hence the nerf.

---

If you have ever actually played this game you would understand how stupid this is. Do you know how fast a hurricane pops a ogre II? A skilled pilot in any tier 2 BC can go toe to toe with a myrmidon and most of the time win if they play to its weakness. If you target, approach, f1-fwhatever you will lose to this ship every time. The heavy drones are fine, drop some turrets and make it a little harder to fit ffs.

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Originally by: Siigari Kitawa

---

When you take out a ships' dedicated drones, you do this:

Drone 1: 20% damage reduction.

Drone 2: 25% damage reduction

Drone 3: 33% damage reduction

Drone 4: 50% damage reduction

Drone 5: 100% damage reduction

You exponentially get a better tank.

---

Originally by: RedFall

---

How dare you try to argue my point with your so called "evidence". I don't need any, I have truthiness on my side.

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Originally by: Dr Paithos

---

Everyone whining about being unable to kill passively tanked drakes needs to fit one medium neutralizer. His hardeners will go off and you should then have the DPS to kill him.

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Originally by: Blind Fear

---

Generally, when trying to be a puppetmaster, it is considered good form not to wrap the strings around your neck and choke yourself.

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Originally by: PCaBoo

---

First of all, noone (that's any good at least) fits blasters on a myrm :p,

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Originally by: PCaBoo

---

secondly; a 'niche' ship can do what you stated (I fly all combat classes below capital), but so then why can't a drone boat, specifically designed to carry drones, not use heavy drones?

---

Originally by: PCaBoo

---

By this insane logic that these pro-nerf people have, Cruisers should then not be able to field light drones, since light drones are for frigates, and cruisers are anti-destroyer. If you can't go up, then why should you be able to go down? It's ridiculous.

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Originally by: PCaBoo

---

Show me a max skilled myrm pilot that can beat a well skilled bs pilot.

---

Originally by: PCaBoo

---

It just doesn't happen, unless you're not fit properly for the task at hand... which is another story. One which I believe is the true issue behind this new anti-drone craze.

---

Originally by: Chaos Space Marines

---

Do you hear the voices, too?!?!

---

Originally by: Kolwrath

---

Originally by: PCaBoo

---

First of all, noone (that's any good at least) fits blasters on a myrm :p,

---

Irrellevant. It had the high slots and the grid to field a full rack of blasters, a full rack of heavies AND field a very good tank at the same time. That is the problem.

Originally by: PCaBoo

---

secondly; a 'niche' ship can do what you stated (I fly all combat classes below capital), but so then why can't a drone boat, specifically designed to carry drones, not use heavy drones?

---

The Iskur cant field a full rack of heavies now can it? It is a drone boat. It is specifically setup to be a drone ship is it not? so do I take it that you are implying that an Iskur should be able to field a full set of heavy drones?

My point is the Myrm does tanks and deals out alot of DPS at the same time. It is too powerfull. Others in this thread have come to the same conclusion.

Originally by: PCaBoo

---

By this insane logic that these pro-nerf people have, Cruisers should then not be able to field light drones, since light drones are for frigates, and cruisers are anti-destroyer. If you can't go up, then why should you be able to go down? It's ridiculous.

---

So by your logic a battleship should not be able to fit a small ion blaster. If you cant go up why go down isent that right? So all big ships should be completly vulnerable to any thing not in a smaller size class? Your logic is flawed.

Originally by: PCaBoo

---

Show me a max skilled myrm pilot that can beat a well skilled bs pilot.

---

Irrellevant. This is not about Myrm Vs Battlships.

Originally by: PCaBoo

---

It just doesn't happen, unless you're not fit properly for the task at hand... which is another story. One which I believe is the true issue behind this new anti-drone craze.

---

K your just ranting for the last part there ...

This whole thing is a buff to drone ships. They will gain huge amounts of versitilly. Pilots will be able to have wings of replacement drones, and a wing of ECM drones, etc.

The real issue here is Myrm pilots upset that thier Nos / Neut Tanks BBQ boat is getting balanced. Uber DPS (for its ship class) and a damn good tank is overpowered. Period.

---

Originally by: Blind Fear

---

Generally, when trying to be a puppetmaster, it is considered good form not to wrap the strings around your neck and choke yourself.

---

Originally by: Retnik

---

I did not disrespect CCP, mearly called them out on their choices of what they are nerfing. I know many people are crying to leave the myrm alone, but most I have talked to agreed it was overpowered. But what gets most people is they are losing heavy drones on a ship clearly made to field them. Show me where it is said heavy drones are battleship class weapons. You are just drawing similarities based on there being 3 class of drones and 3 class of other weapons. It's ok to draw this conclusion but it's completely off.

---

Originally by: Retnik

---

I brought Damage mods into it to further prove they are not bs class weapons because bs weapons shine with damage mods increasing them to large amounts of dps. Drones are static in their dps, and there is no other way to enhance them. Also you can even further improve bs sized weapons with implants, with drone you cannot.

---

Originally by: Retnik

---

Strip off 3 turrets, drop the grid a little and call fixed.

---

Originally by: Chaos Space Marines

---

Do you hear the voices, too?!?!

---

Originally by: Darken Two

---

And btw, to all the people who don't fly gallente, please stop talking about blasters on a myrm. The damn thing is slow and unless you land on top of someone or they sit still and go AFK, there is no way you're shooting at anyone with blasters.

---

Originally by: RedFall

---

How dare you try to argue my point with your so called "evidence". I don't need any, I have truthiness on my side.

---

Originally by: Dr Paithos

---

Originally by: Darken Two

---

And btw, to all the people who don't fly gallente, please stop talking about blasters on a myrm. The damn thing is slow and unless you land on top of someone or they sit still and go AFK, there is no way you're shooting at anyone with blasters.

---

I don't want you to take this the wrong way, but you're a terrible pilot.

It's dangerous ahead, take these:
10mn Microwarpdrive II
X5 Prototype I Engine Enervator

Megathron and Hyperion are even slower, you're saying you don't fit blasters on them either?

---

Originally by: Blind Fear

---

Generally, when trying to be a puppetmaster, it is considered good form not to wrap the strings around your neck and choke yourself.

---

Originally by: CCP Nozh

---

Generally I'd never reply to a post like this

(..) I'll spare you some of my words.

(..)

PS. I'm never replying to a thread like this again. Keep them constructive and you might receive some feedback.

---

Quote:

---

Good to be bad.

---

Originally by: Jenea

---

I don't think anyone can realistically say the Myrmidon wasn't just a little too good. That said, the biggest issue for me (and some others) is with how the Myrmidon was changed.

Whereas the Ferox and Drake are two entirely different kinds of ships, the Gallente battlecruisers are more or less the same deal. The Brutix is a little better with hybrids while the Myrmidon is a little better with drones. Effectively they are the same ship now.

There would much less anger from the dedicated drone users had the Myrmidon morphed into a more traditional type drone boat. The would mean retaining the drone ability (or perhaps even a 3H/2M combo) and coming up a bit shy on the turret side of the equation.

---

Originally by: Chaos Space Marines

---

Do you hear the voices, too?!?!

---

Originally by: Elias Modron

---

Caps-Lock is cruise control for cool!

---

Originally by: Darken Two

---

Originally by: Dr Paithos

---

Originally by: Darken Two

---

And btw, to all the people who don't fly gallente, please stop talking about blasters on a myrm. The damn thing is slow and unless you land on top of someone or they sit still and go AFK, there is no way you're shooting at anyone with blasters.

---

I don't want you to take this the wrong way, but you're a terrible pilot.

It's dangerous ahead, take these:
10mn Microwarpdrive II
X5 Prototype I Engine Enervator

Megathron and Hyperion are even slower, you're saying you don't fit blasters on them either?

---

Hmmm lets see...a 10MN MWD on a Myrm.....Sig Radius goes up, Cap goes down, still need to get in range all of which time the other guy is shooting at me and all of which time, my DPS is purely derived from my Drones. Plus the fact that the 10MN MWD doesnt really make the myrm that fast.

A megathron and Hyperion have exactly the same conditions to work under.

Thats why it's stupid to compare paper DPS of ships. The Myrm was supposed to be a drone boat so the bonuses are tilted that way. The Megathron and Hyperion are designed to work as blaster boats so they have some compensation in that department with their bonuses.


Next time you decide to flame someone, I suggest you think before you type. Anyways, have a nice day.

---

Originally by: RedFall

---

How dare you try to argue my point with your so called "evidence". I don't need any, I have truthiness on my side.

---

Originally by: Tau IX

---

Tell me again, why I am paying for your ( and your fellow devmates ) employment if it's so heavy task to bear with giving some reasons why you are planning to make big changes in the game which I'm sponsoring and playing?

---

Originally by: Tau IX

---

Originally by: CCP Nozh

---

Generally I'd never reply to a post like this

(..) I'll spare you some of my words.

(..)

PS. I'm never replying to a thread like this again. Keep them constructive and you might receive some feedback.

---

Tell me again, why I am paying for your ( and your fellow devmates ) employment if it's so heavy task to bear with giving some reasons why you are planning to make big changes in the game which I'm sponsoring and playing?

---

Originally by: Blind Fear

---

Generally, when trying to be a puppetmaster, it is considered good form not to wrap the strings around your neck and choke yourself.

---

Originally by: Kolwrath

---

Yes I am drawing similarities on Drone Class vs Ship Size. It does make sense logically does it not?

If I am in fact incorrect, as you say, then please tell me why Heavy drones are not Battleship class weapons. What makes you so feverantly exclaim that they are not? what proof do you have?

---

Originally by: Dr Paithos

---

Edited by: Dr Paithos on 08/11/2007 03:14:41

Originally by: Darken Two

---

Originally by: Dr Paithos

---

Originally by: Darken Two

---

And btw, to all the people who don't fly gallente, please stop talking about blasters on a myrm. The damn thing is slow and unless you land on top of someone or they sit still and go AFK, there is no way you're shooting at anyone with blasters.

---

I don't want you to take this the wrong way, but you're a terrible pilot.

It's dangerous ahead, take these:
10mn Microwarpdrive II
X5 Prototype I Engine Enervator

Megathron and Hyperion are even slower, you're saying you don't fit blasters on them either?

---

Hmmm lets see...a 10MN MWD on a Myrm.....Sig Radius goes up, Cap goes down, still need to get in range all of which time the other guy is shooting at me and all of which time, my DPS is purely derived from my Drones. Plus the fact that the 10MN MWD doesnt really make the myrm that fast.

A megathron and Hyperion have exactly the same conditions to work under.

Thats why it's stupid to compare paper DPS of ships. The Myrm was supposed to be a drone boat so the bonuses are tilted that way. The Megathron and Hyperion are designed to work as blaster boats so they have some compensation in that department with their bonuses.


Next time you decide to flame someone, I suggest you think before you type. Anyways, have a nice day.

---

If you don't fit blasters on ships because you're afraid that you can't get to your optimal, you should quit eve right now. Sheesh!

Say your enemy jumps through a gate. You immediately begin to lock him, and approach and hit your mwd. He begins at 15km away. You will be at about 8km by the time he has locked and the time his webber has activated (if he even has one). You will then take maybe one volley at max damage, bringing you to half shields. You scram and web him, and turn your mwd off unless you notice him heading away from you with mwd on. By the time he gets up to speed, you will be at or close to your blasters optimal with Void/Navy Antimatter (Navy is better). If you find yourself stuck at range, quickly change to Null, but this should not happen. If you are super concerned about range, fit two webbers!

If you are in a gang fight, you will either be ignored or primaried. If it's really small enough that you can tank for a while, switch to Null if you have to. Your dps is still very good for your class. You can also ewar multiple targets with your spare mid.

Notice that it also takes time for your heavies to travel to target too. If you are burning towards target at over their speed (around 800m/s with moderate skills afaik) then do not deploy them until you are at point-blank or below this speed. You may want to delay deployment anyway to preserve your dps.

You really, really want to be as close as possible in a myrm (prepatch) so that you can scoop and redeploy your drones. Any competent opponent will laugh at your rail dps and pop your lonely lost heavies before they can return to you.

---

Originally by: Blind Fear

---

Generally, when trying to be a puppetmaster, it is considered good form not to wrap the strings around your neck and choke yourself.

---

Originally by: Jenea

---

CCP made it this way. They probably had valid reasons for doing this, don't you think? They probably had long and heated meetings over this very point and they came to the conclusion that drones sizes were never meant to be limited in the same manner as high slot weapons through the use of powergrid and cpu requirements. Maybe, just maybe, they knew what they were doing?

---

Originally by: Chaos Space Marines

---

Do you hear the voices, too?!?!

---

Originally by: Kolwrath

---

Originally by: Jenea

---

CCP made it this way. They probably had valid reasons for doing this, don't you think? They probably had long and heated meetings over this very point and they came to the conclusion that drones sizes were never meant to be limited in the same manner as high slot weapons through the use of powergrid and cpu requirements. Maybe, just maybe, they knew what they were doing?

---

No need to be an arse. Shesh. Grow up.

---

Originally by: Darken Two

---

Thank you for providing me with one static situation which you converted into a general rule.

Oh I got one. Say your using drones and the other guy has a smartbomb...there goes your drones.

By the same logic you're using, I surmise that Myrms are too underpowered and therefore they need 16 turrets instead of 6. Oh and also I want all smartbombs removed...and any other weapon that can hit droneS. Sounds ridiculous doesnt it.

This is why I said don't use paper DPS to gauge a ships capabilities and it's even worse to use static situations to gauge a ship.

PS. If I wanted to use blasters, I would use a Brutix, its got the turret slots and the bonuses to be a blaster boat.

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Originally by: RedFall

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How dare you try to argue my point with your so called "evidence". I don't need any, I have truthiness on my side.

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Originally by: Darken Two

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And btw, to all the people who don't fly gallente, please stop talking about blasters on a myrm. The damn thing is slow and unless you land on top of someone or they sit still and go AFK, there is no way you're shooting at anyone with blasters.

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Originally by: CCP Nozh

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Generally I'd never reply to a post like this, since it's basically a huge rant, but I'll spare you some of my words.

PS. I'm never replying to a thread like this again. Keep them constructive and you might receive some feedback.

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Originally by: Cpt Fina

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Edited by: Cpt Fina on 08/11/2007 04:13:08

Originally by: CCP Nozh

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Generally I'd never reply to a post like this, since it's basically a huge rant, but I'll spare you some of my words.

PS. I'm never replying to a thread like this again. Keep them constructive and you might receive some feedback.

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Forgive them oh mighty Dev for throwing this "huge rant", they are only lowly customers after all. IÆm sure that they all feel incredibly humbled that you overlooked their hysterical outbursts and ôspared some of your wordsö.

CCP Nozh: None of us are (able to) forcing you to reply in these threads nor are we forcing you to respond to a thread ever again.
You and the rest of CCP canÆt seriously say that you werenÆt expecting a response, rant or not, from the playerbase when you make adjustments to the game. Apparently you find that some or all posters in this thread are writing posts not worthy a response from CCP. IÆm not saying that you are wrong and IÆm not trying to justify any post/ers in the thread but since several constructive suggestions have been made here, your post effectively puts down a lot of posters.

Apparently it was rather aggravating to respond to this thread as the posters failed to meet the CCP standard. To be honest, if this is the kind of respect IÆll get in a Dev-response in the future IÆd much rather have you ônever replying to a threadö again.

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Originally by: Incantare

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Originally by: Darken Two

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And btw, to all the people who don't fly gallente, please stop talking about blasters on a myrm. The damn thing is slow and unless you land on top of someone or they sit still and go AFK, there is no way you're shooting at anyone with blasters.

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I fly Gallente, and use blasters on my Myrm. No ACs, no nos/neuts since the nerf and I have no issue getting in range. Solo against a hurricane or smaller sure you'll encounter range problems, but in gang you should have a webbing tackler.

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Originally by: Blind Fear

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Generally, when trying to be a puppetmaster, it is considered good form not to wrap the strings around your neck and choke yourself.

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Originally by: Dr Paithos

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Edited by: Dr Paithos on 08/11/2007 03:30:12

Originally by: Darken Two

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Thank you for providing me with one static situation which you converted into a general rule.

Oh I got one. Say your using drones and the other guy has a smartbomb...there goes your drones.

By the same logic you're using, I surmise that Myrms are too underpowered and therefore they need 16 turrets instead of 6. Oh and also I want all smartbombs removed...and any other weapon that can hit droneS. Sounds ridiculous doesnt it.

This is why I said don't use paper DPS to gauge a ships capabilities and it's even worse to use static situations to gauge a ship.

PS. If I wanted to use blasters, I would use a Brutix, its got the turret slots and the bonuses to be a blaster boat.

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No, you get as close as possible and watch your drones. When they take damage, scoop and redeploy them. How on earth is your rail fit going to deal better with smartbombs? Your drones are going to just be killed more quickly, as he can shoot them in the time they return to you too. At least if you're close you can still get some dps from your drones, and fill him full of antimatter while he bleeds his cap with his smartbomb.

Look at killboards in Eve. Good myrm pilots fit blasters and kill ships of the same class and sometimes above. Bad myrm pilots fit rails (and probably signal amplifiers and heatsinks and one small smartbomb, god knows) and die to pretty much everything.

In REAL eve PvP, you adjust the situation to suit you and your fit if you're a good pilot, or you fit something godawful and spend all your time whining on the forums and whine if you're a terrible pilot.

PS. But... myrm doesn't have bonuses to hybrids... and brutix has a bonus to ALL medium hybrids :psyduck: (admittedly railbrutixes are terrible). The only difference with a myrm not having a hybrid bonus is that some people fit autocannons as they use no cap, but they do less dps at point blank, which is where you want to be if you care for your poor little drones.

Won't someone think of the drones?

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Originally by: Blind Fear

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Generally, when trying to be a puppetmaster, it is considered good form not to wrap the strings around your neck and choke yourself.

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Originally by: Darken Two

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Thats exactly my point. The Drones are the main DPS of the ship. The blasters are there to supplement taht DPS once you get close to the opponent.

If both the Brutix and Myrm were dependent on blasters for DPS, why have two ships?

Another point to note, most people talkign about DPS are talking about raw DPS at optimal range. What about the hammering you take while you get to the target. And in the case of the Myrm, the main weapons can be destroyed. The DPS with blasters after there are no drones left is quite pitiful compared to teh Brutix.

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Originally by: RedFall

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How dare you try to argue my point with your so called "evidence". I don't need any, I have truthiness on my side.

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Originally by: Darken Two

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Originally by: Incantare

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Originally by: Darken Two

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And btw, to all the people who don't fly gallente, please stop talking about blasters on a myrm. The damn thing is slow and unless you land on top of someone or they sit still and go AFK, there is no way you're shooting at anyone with blasters.

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I fly Gallente, and use blasters on my Myrm. No ACs, no nos/neuts since the nerf and I have no issue getting in range. Solo against a hurricane or smaller sure you'll encounter range problems, but in gang you should have a webbing tackler.

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Thats exactly my point. The Drones are the main DPS of the ship. The blasters are there to supplement taht DPS once you get close to the opponent.

If both the Brutix and Myrm were dependent on blasters for DPS, why have two ships?

Another point to note, most people talkign about DPS are talking about raw DPS at optimal range. What about the hammering you take while you get to the target. And in the case of the Myrm, the main weapons can be destroyed. The DPS with blasters after there are no drones left is quite pitiful compared to teh Brutix.

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Originally by: Darken Two

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Aha now we get closer to the issue.

Scooping and redeploying isnt going to work anymore. Not to mention now that tehy become more dependent on med drones, one volley from a Drake will obliterate medium drones.

On the other hand, if the Mrym becomes totally dependent on blasters, whats the point in having such a ship when the brutix is a better blaster boat?

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Originally by: RedFall

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How dare you try to argue my point with your so called "evidence". I don't need any, I have truthiness on my side.

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Originally by: Dr Paithos

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Edited by: Dr Paithos on 08/11/2007 04:52:41

Originally by: Darken Two

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Thats exactly my point. The Drones are the main DPS of the ship. The blasters are there to supplement taht DPS once you get close to the opponent.

If both the Brutix and Myrm were dependent on blasters for DPS, why have two ships?

Another point to note, most people talkign about DPS are talking about raw DPS at optimal range. What about the hammering you take while you get to the target. And in the case of the Myrm, the main weapons can be destroyed. The DPS with blasters after there are no drones left is quite pitiful compared to teh Brutix.

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You claim that everyone else is using theorycraft situations and not real-Eve ones. This is in fact what you are doing, and what everyone else is not doing.

Your Myrm's drones will only get destroyed against ships with a very high alpha strike, or if you're doing something wrong, like hanging at 20km with rails and not watching your drones.

There are few situations in Eve where you will end up more than 20km from a target. Those where the target is faster than you do not matter, as if the target wishes he will stay outside web range, mwd to the edge of scram range and leave when he pleases. Your slight rail dps will only bother a few ships - perhaps a stabber, which you should permatank anyway. Ships at that range can happily kill your slow drones, and you are a sitting duck whether you fit rails or blasters.

If the target is slower, you need to make the judgement call to engage or not. This is a call you need to make anyway whether you're fitting rails, blasters, or happy rainbow guns. If you're thinking of mwding 150km to engage a sniping Eagle - don't do it, it's a terrible idea, he'll warp out anyway. The difference between rail optimal and blaster optimal (with void) is not terribly significant when you consider the hp and tank of your ship and the distance it can cross in that time.

It's possible a T2 railmyrm is better for very large gangs where the primary target dies almost immediately, but you'd still be better getting a railbrutix in that case.

I do, in fact, agree with you that the myrm should keep its trademark drones and should lose turret slots. I have no idea what your pontifications about the Rail Myrmidon have to do with the subject. The Rail Myrmidon is underpowered because it's a terrible setup, which plays to all the disadvantages of the hull and none of the advantages, not because the Myrm itself is underpowered.

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Originally by: Blind Fear

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Generally, when trying to be a puppetmaster, it is considered good form not to wrap the strings around your neck and choke yourself.

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Originally by: Darken Two

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words

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Originally by: RedFall

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How dare you try to argue my point with your so called "evidence". I don't need any, I have truthiness on my side.

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Originally by: CCP Nozh

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Generally I'd never reply to a post like this, since it's basically a huge rant, but I'll spare you some of my words.

The point of the bandwidth change was to be able to balance drone boats better, especially smaller class ships.

These are the changes we've done with bandwidth, all other ships have the same bandwidth as their dronebay:

* Ishkur: 25Mbit/s bandwidth, 25m3 + 5m3/level drone bay
* Vexor: 75Mbit/s bandwidth, 100m3 dronebay
* Ishtar: 125Mbit/s bandwidth, no change in dronebay
* Arbitrator, Curse, Pilgrim: 50 Mbit/s bandwidth, 150m3 dronebay
* Myrmidon: 75Mbit/s bandwidth, 150m3 dronebay
* Eos: 75Mbit/s bandwidth, 150m3 + 15m3/level dronebay

You can see the trend here really, we've decreased damage output of some of the more "overpowered" ships but instead increased their ability to sustain their damage output.

PS. I'm never replying to a thread like this again. Keep them constructive and you might receive some feedback.

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