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omiNATION Gallente Vanguard of the Ouroboros Nation	Posted - 2007.11.06 20:32:00 - [1] Seriously, who ever hears about WoW being unplayable for days at a time when being patched. Actually who ever hears about games being brought down nightly? What other game has as much problem with delivering on the promises it made when first developing a product? I keep reading about all these amazing features that were never introduced, environments, factional warfare, a working stock market. All dated back in 2003. And you know what? for a game that's been around for what 5 years, it's done rather well, but honestly, development for this game is unbearably slow, so slow that balance changes... we're talking about basic, game play, changes, takes years, and tends to have an unplanned aura to them. Take the carrier changes. Dev suddenly talk about problem no one's complained about, then announce various smaller changes when player base is less than receptive. Devs then continue to 'quietly' make changes in the test server weeks before a 'critical game patch' is due. Seriously all that stuff should have been done months ago, with months of testing. You can't cram for gameplay balances like this, not if you're serious about them anyway. It's like you guys say to yourselves, "we can just change them again in a few months, and so what? Players will just have to train longer, meaning they pay longer for subscription. Muahahaha.... god it's cold up here in iceland." So what changes do you actually make to the game? First of all, you pretty much encapsulate not only the speed of EVE's progress, but also the high point in what is undoubtedly the biggest change to EVE in all of it's history... walking. Wow. seriously. It's so bad, you had to get your marketing department to dress it up for you, "Ambulation". Honestly, who came up with that? "Hey man what are you doing?" "Oh just ambulating to the store" "Narley to the extreme! buy more corporate sodas!" "For real" ::electric guitar riff:: This is a decision that could only be made by a corporation that honestly doesn't give a damn. No seriously, that's what CCP thinks is important to this game, not more diverse strategic gameplay, not a working economic model without artifical caps.. walking. People always say EVE is a harsh cruel world and if you don't like it, you can play Hello Kitty online, but have you ever actually read the features page of Hello Kitty Online? http://www.sanriotown.com/onlinegame/index.php?s=features http://www.sanriotown.com/onlinegame/index.php?s=community It's ******* Ambulation! And it doesn't require $15 a month for the privilege either. This feels like the honest direction EVE is headed and I'm not a big fan, it's not about the gameplay it's about attracting numbers. Getting subscriptions, holding them and just resting on the fact that people have too much money and time on their hands that they'll put up with mediocre fun rather than do something productive with their lives. Everytime I hear about 'EVE's Growth' i laugh. It's linear, you could almost explain away the growth as people adding alts. And fundamentally EVE isn't all that different from say... Maple Story. We don't grind for xp, but instead just money, which frankly doesn't change much if you're doing missions, ratting, mining, or gate camping. It was so transparently bad you had to add a second tier of money, LP, to compensate, which actually doesn't help since most of the items are so bad, you'd never purchase them in the first place. And I'm not even going to touch issues such as 1) why is the EVE database even connected to the forums and websites, meaning that in some cases, the forums and website will go down if the game does down 2) haven't yet learned how to dynamicaly allocate resources to a node, really? in this day and age? You have to bring it down before you make changes? [sig] EVE, basically an MMORPG with prison rules. [/sig]
omiNATION Gallente Vanguard of the Ouroboros Nation	Posted - 2007.11.06 20:33:00 - [2] Edited by: omiNATION on 06/11/2007 20:40:48 Edited by: omiNATION on 06/11/2007 20:38:05 I could go on, but honestly, it's all good. Honestly, EVE isn't really that bad, it's just that all it's competitors were terrible. May Galaxies and Earth and Beyond rest in hell forever. But that just means there isn't really a competative environment for EVE to grow, and I think that's more of a problem than anything else. Lets say some new game came, was only about a fraction as good as EVE, but had no downtime, or a working stock market, or a more transparent development process without accusations of developers taking biased actions in the game universe for their own benefit. Think objectively. It would have a chance, maybe not a complete conversion because people are very lazy creatures. But at the very least it would motivate say... actually adhering to a release cycle, at the very least would prevent dev blogs from saying fantastical things they don't actually have the means or desire to implement for years. No i'm not leaving. No my FOTM didn't get nerfed. but seriously, a lot of you work in IT. What would your boss say if the server you were maintaining had to come down nightly, for 2 hours, and for the next two days you couldn't garuntee reliability or performance. You'd get fired. [sig] EVE, basically an MMORPG with prison rules. [/sig]
Tarminic Forsaken Resistance	Posted - 2007.11.06 20:34:00 - [3] So...you are going to play Hello Kitty Online? If so can I have your stuff? ---------------- Tarminic - 29 Million SP in pink Forum Warfare
Jenny Spitfire Caldari	Posted - 2007.11.06 20:35:00 - [4] There is nothing wrong with evolving virtual environment. It is evolving so expect bumps. --------- Technica impendi Caldari generis. Pax Caldaria! Kali is for KArebearLIng. I 100% agree with Avon. Female EVE gamers? Mail Zajo or visit WGOE.Public in-game.
Surfin's PlunderBunny Minmatar mUfFiN fAcToRy	Posted - 2007.11.06 20:36:00 - [5] Help! I'm getting a rash and it's spreading!!! Originally by: Liz Kali Tic Toc Tic Toc , time is ticking I owned someone on forums!!!
Jenny Spitfire Caldari	Posted - 2007.11.06 20:37:00 - [6] /me puts ointment and rubs on Surfin's rash. Hope it helps. :) --------- Technica impendi Caldari generis. Pax Caldaria! Kali is for KArebearLIng. I 100% agree with Avon. Female EVE gamers? Mail Zajo or visit WGOE.Public in-game.
Tarminic Forsaken Resistance	Posted - 2007.11.06 20:38:00 - [7] /me cues **** music ---------------- Tarminic - 29 Million SP in pink Forum Warfare
Samuel Freedom Minmatar Ramdon Industries corporation	Posted - 2007.11.06 20:40:00 - [8] All these people one server .... This game is alot differn't than other games it's what sets it apart from the cookie cutter games. I have played MMO's for along time (but not WOW ) and tbh the level of service in comparison is fantastic. As the new Jenny has said eve is evolving wxpect some bumps(not often I agree with her these days).
Surfin's PlunderBunny Minmatar mUfFiN fAcToRy	Posted - 2007.11.06 20:41:00 - [9] Originally by: Jenny Spitfire /me puts ointment and rubs on Surfin's rash. Hope it helps. :) I NEED AN ADULT!!!! Originally by: Liz Kali Tic Toc Tic Toc , time is ticking I owned someone on forums!!!
Lacranora Gallente Pagan Rites Corp	Posted - 2007.11.06 20:44:00 - [10] WOW Who **ed in your cheerios this morning ? All games, no matter how old they are go through changes of some kind. Good or bad they always happen. Gold sinks....just about every game has them. The market gets crazy and everyone has all the money you could ever want. So they put something into the game that is all new and nice like, and price it at a rate that is so far out there that everyone wants to buy it. Money is taken out of the game, and the market comes back, to some form of being normal. These games are about business, something you may or may not understand. In order for them to be in business they have to make money, to make money they need to do something no one else has. They did, and now it is evolving, and it might be evolving into something you don't like. Think about how many car concepts that are out there, they are going to do everything from get to from here to there, to save you a billion on gas....and hardly do they ever live up to the hype. But people still buy, and people that already have it stick with it. We are sheep, either follow, or get left behind....at least that is what most people want you to believe. Originally by:** Mimiru i store my money in a pouch i've sewn into my own skin. Its the only way to be sure.
Haradgrim Caldari The Wild Bunch INTERDICTION	Posted - 2007.11.06 20:46:00 - [11] 1) money is not the same as XP, in WoW you don't have to spend your xp down to level 1 to be good. Money is an economy in EVE like any other game, however, individual success within EVE relies on being successful in the economy...... 2) EVE is a pioneering game that, quite frankly, given the indie nature of its developer (I mean that as a compliment CCP) its quite frankly shocking that CCP is capable of given us the kind of production values that it does. Check out some games made by companies from similar countries (i.e. non-mainstream game development coutries) with simlar backgrounds to CCP and you will likely see 1 success for 100000000x10^99999 failures, of which few have been as successful as EVE. I give CCP huge cudos for having been able to grow and keep up with their game as well as they have. While yes there are alot of little issues and they struggle to keep up with balancing, but few games have done a better job (EQ2 is the only one that comes to mind) of making the game better following release. That being said, I'm not saying I don't have the same gripes as everyone else...where's my factional warfare? why can't you stop desync? fix drones....etc but I recognize that CCP is working on it, they don't talk about it during the early stages (because we idiots of the forums imediately scream ZOMG THE SKY IS FALLING!!!!! when they announce a small change a few weeks in advance) so they can complete a draft before getting feedback (how many people here have a job where they want their boss/client commenting on half-finished projects??!??) Bottom Line: IF YOU DON"T LIKE EVE; DON'T PLAY it will save the rest of us a lot of grief (and griefing ) Your signature exceeds the byte me limit allowed on the forums-Darth Patches Oh Noes!
Snake Doctor MacroIntel United Corporations Against Macros	Posted - 2007.11.06 20:50:00 - [12] Lazy after lunch; tl;dr. :( I wanted to though. Don't be ****ed Omi! We need you here to offset the stupid. You can't leave. But for srsly, chllz. Join Macrointel!
Paulo Damarr	Posted - 2007.11.06 20:57:00 - [13] The thing is CCP do have to pander to their playerbase somewhat and probably have to count on expansion, The maintenance cost of the hardware must be phenomenal and the cost of upgrading it as technology advances must be huge and then there are the wages for all the various staff and developers. They need a certain income to be able to meet these costs and they cannot count just on the current consumers, so they do need to things to bring new players in. Also there is a raft of potential competitors looming on the horizon with Infinity, Startrek online, Stargate worlds and Black Prophecy and If even one of these is even only as successful as EVE is now that could snatch existing customers away or grab EVEs potential customers, this of course works both ways as players could be drawn to the Sci Fi MMO genre by these games and then migrate to EVE but it does mean that CCP must continue to expand and adapt EVE so that it continues to remain at the top of its genre. Originally by: MOTOK0 A bit like the second coming of jesus only with screaming and tears and whine threads.
Asestorian Domination.	Posted - 2007.11.06 21:21:00 - [14] First off, don't ever bother comparing CCP's server record to that of Blizzard's. They are incomparable, simply because of scale. WoW has loads and loads of crappy little servers, which are simple and easy. EVE has one gigantic server that makes brains explode. With that out of the way.. You basically seem to be complaining about nothing. CCP used to be a tiny indy company, and they are lucky to have made it as far as they have. You know why some of the changes that needed to be implemented long ago weren't? Not enough people. But now they do have enough people, and they are working hard on making sure it gets done. You are also being a **** about Ambulation. You don't want it? Great. That's fine, you don't have to use it. But guess what. I do want it. I want to be able to walk around in stations. And do you know what's even better? They would have made it anyway even if EVE never saw the work. They are doing it for their next game, the World of Darkness MMO, which is the IP of White Wolf who they acquired whenever it was. So they are doing the work anyway, and they may as well give it to us in EVE so we have more options. That's pretty nice of them. The carrier changes were all sorted out, and it was just a misunderstanding by the community with a new dev. No one cares any more. And the extra changes they are adding to the test server probably are planned, and they are probably reasons for them to be there. They are being tested now, and once it's all done and complete we'll get patch notes telling us exactly what's happening. Simple. Stop complaining about nothing because a patch broke the server. WoW is hardly peachy with it's patch records either, even if the problems they create are incredibly funny, but frustrating, gameplay problems instead. And finally, once again, never compare CCP with Blizzard. They are two very different companies. One is a much smaller developer based in Iceland with a niche game, the other is a huge company with masses of resources, lots and lots of Devs and support staff, an already successful and loved set of games and an MMO that uses all the most basic of MMO frameworks and polishes them to a stupid degree. Still looks crap and is pretty boring in my opinion though. Yes I did play it. --- MOZO
Gojyu Gallente Ever Flow DeStInY.	Posted - 2007.11.06 21:23:00 - [15] Actually, it's extremely common for wow servers to go down for a day or so with a patch, or at least it was in my day. Also, wow has one giant downtime- ends up being 8 hours compared to eve's 7 hours per week. Wow does a lot of things better than eve, but server stability isn't one of them I'm afraid.
Wild Rho Amarr GoonFleet	Posted - 2007.11.06 21:41:00 - [16] So go make your own space MMO then. You're clearly an expert and design a game to give Eve some competition, best of luck.
Shanur Minmatar Republic Military School	Posted - 2007.11.07 09:45:00 - [17] Originally by: omiNATION Seriously, who ever hears about WoW being unplayable for days at a time when being patched. Actually who ever hears about games being brought down nightly? What other game has as much problem with delivering on the promises it made when first developing a product? <SNIP Too long to read> Try: Verant Interactive/Sony Online Entertainment (upgrades were nightmares) Funcom (be VERY glad you didn't play Anarchy online the first half year) EA Games (who ran Earth & Beyond in the ground after it was published with less than half the promised features) NC Soft (Especially with Auto Assault) What company has not had serious release troubles with their MMOGs? Oh! And your suggestion that WoW never suffered from day long downtime. CLASSIC! Used to happen on ocasion before TBC came out. Please do some research before making bold statements. The facts are in complete conflict with your opinion. I'll give you this to the title, CCP could some more competition. If only because there are way too few space games out anymore.
duffmantt Dragonian Freelancers KIA Alliance	Posted - 2007.11.07 09:53:00 - [18] Quote: WoW has loads and loads of crappy little servers, which are simple and easy. EVE has one gigantic server that makes brains explode. This is the main reason i play eve and the main reason that we can forget CCP's odd transgresses. What we do in Eve, Echoes in eternity...
Ruciza	Posted - 2007.11.07 09:53:00 - [19] Edited by: Ruciza on 07/11/2007 09:56:10 Originally by: omiNATION Dev suddenly talk about problem no one's complained about Right there it is. The proof of your silliness. Balance changes are >perceived< as random because people are ignorant of what the balance is. That's the explanation.
Momoko Kochi	Posted - 2007.11.07 09:56:00 - [20] Eagerly awaiting the MMO you create, omi
Qui Shon	Posted - 2007.11.07 10:14:00 - [21] Originally by: omiNATION So what changes do you actually make to the game? First of all, you pretty much encapsulate not only the speed of EVE's progress, but also the high point in what is undoubtedly the biggest change to EVE in all of it's history... walking. Wow. seriously. It's so bad, you had to get your marketing department to dress it up for you, "Ambulation". Honestly, who came up with that? "Hey man what are you doing?" "Oh just ambulating to the store" "Narley to the extreme! buy more corporate sodas!" "For real" ::electric guitar riff:: This is a decision that could only be made by a corporation that honestly doesn't give a damn. No seriously, that's what CCP thinks is important to this game, not more diverse strategic gameplay, not a working economic model without artifical caps.. walking. People always say EVE is a harsh cruel world and if you don't like it, you can play Hello Kitty online, but have you ever actually read the features page of Hello Kitty Online? http://www.sanriotown.com/onlinegame/index.php?s=features http://www.sanriotown.com/onlinegame/index.php?s=community It's ******* Ambulation! And it doesn't require $15 a month for the privilege either. That's awesome. Hilarious, AND true.
Reem Fairchild Minmatar Republic University	Posted - 2007.11.07 10:17:00 - [22] Originally by: omiNATION Players will just have to train longer, meaning they pay longer for subscription. Muahahaha.... I keep hearing people say things like this and I just don't understand the logic behind it. If I'm playing, I'm paying for my subscription. What does training have to do with it?
Jakus Cemendur Caldari Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2007.11.07 10:19:00 - [23] Didn't CCP buy WhiteWolf, who are basically the people doing Ambulation, so won't infact no 'EVE' CCP devs as it were be working on it, just the new ex-WhiteWolf people.
Reem Fairchild Minmatar Republic University	Posted - 2007.11.07 10:25:00 - [24] Originally by: Jakus Cemendur Didn't CCP buy WhiteWolf, who are basically the people doing Ambulation, so won't infact no 'EVE' CCP devs as it were be working on it, just the new ex-WhiteWolf people. They merged about a year ago. I wouldn't think WhiteWolf does much in the way of computer programming though. (Very, very much looking forward to the World of Darkness MMORPG)
Darken Two Gallente Cruororis Consors Conlegium Ivy League	Posted - 2007.11.07 10:27:00 - [25] Please quit the game and stop annoyign the rest of us who really don't give a toss about your opinions. If you're trying to rally support with a poorly thought out post with ill fitting analogies, expect no sympathy. Originally by: Blind Fear Generally, when trying to be a puppetmaster, it is considered good form not to wrap the strings around your neck and choke yourself.
ZerKar Caldari Zen'Tar	Posted - 2007.11.07 10:33:00 - [26] Originally by: Surfin's PlunderBunny Originally by: Jenny Spitfire /me puts ointment and rubs on Surfin's rash. Hope it helps. :) I NEED AN ADULT!!!! Then I will take care of the Bunny . Anyway, I do agree that some competition would only be healthy. I do think with the money CCP gets they could do a bit better with their Servers (though I do not really begrudge them the "Down Time" thing). I think that the evolving of the Character and allowing them to move and interact outside their ship is an important and good thing. Adding depth to the Universe that desperately tries to have it but often times feels very superficial in its RP and Character Developement areas. Most importantly, I think the Devs need to stick to their Vision, listen to the constructive comments from the Players that help keep the game fun but not give in to peer pressure that demands something be uber and something be nerfed for the sake of someone's epeen. I know that must be a rough line for them to walk but I suggest the Players often times do not REALLY know what they want and will spew forth a bunch of easy fixes to make them great and someone else suffer and then when it happens realize they are not having any fun. So careful consideration and a strong Vision or Goal to achieve needs to be established for every change or new direction for EvE. +++++++++++++++ I saw the Sign...! O.o
ViolenTUK Gallente Vindicated Exiles 101010 Alliance	Posted - 2007.11.07 10:59:00 - [27] If you take a look at this upcoming Infinity game you will see how eve should be looking by now. Screenshots Videos www.eve-players.com
Gaven Blands	Posted - 2007.11.07 11:11:00 - [28] Darkfall might have the balls to have death penalty like eve, so could be a contender too. PotBS is a possible, but who the hell can stomach all that camp pirate theme? You might as well put a grass skirt on and head for the nearest leather bar. -- Awwwww Diddums! Did I wardec your highsec alt recently or something?
The Padre Amarr The Coalition Of Buccaneers Mercenary Services	Posted - 2007.11.07 11:16:00 - [29] There are very good reasons for the carrier changes as was explained in depth at fanfest. I didn't understand a word of it, despite other folks explaining it to me, but the nods around the room suggested to me that they were good. Whats wrong with ambulation? Its a good idea and a good word, and since you don't have to do it if you don't want to why worry about it? To counter your argument for choosing the word, what else would one call it? Walking around in stations? thats a bit of a mouthful. Just because you might not have the word in your vocubulary does not mean others do not. (I had to look it up on the web lmao) LP has a purpose other than money as you will notice the items are limited to specific factions and/or corporations. Some things may have been put on the to do list years ago, but its not like they have been twiddling their thumbs for the past 6 years and just in my 3 years there have been massive changes and improvements. Quote: haven't yet learned how to dynamicaly allocate resources to a node, really? in this day and age? You have to bring it down before you make changes? Now this bit I did half understand at fanfest and they are working with microsoft (Go Dad!) and IBM (?) to develop some kind of uber supercomputer that will be able to sort the noding issue out. Well thats as far as I understood, someone else could probably hexplain that better than I. As for DT I rarely see it take over 1 hour, and usually less and I haven't seen serious instability with a patch since RMR. As for DT and other times server is not available that comes with the territory on a single shard game. If it really bugs you then play something else, ultimately no one is forcing you to play EVE. _________
Gnulpie Minmatar Miner Tech	Posted - 2007.11.07 11:20:00 - [30] Seriously, dude you need a life! I don't have any problem that I consider patchday being a day without eve. They announce a 5 hour downtime, now add your personal safety margin of another 5 hours and you are perfectly fine. You don't like the fact that CCP doesn't charge a single penny for all those nice updates? You don't like the fact that they really listen to their playerbase and change (some of) their plans from the feedback they get (mineral compression, trade forum shutdown etc.)? You don't like the fact that CCP is extending Eve to other OS like Linux and the MacOS - all for free? You don't like the fact that usually there is really FAST reply from CCP if 'something happened' to their servers? Well, then you shouldn't play Eve and look for a company that isn't doing all the above but is doing the contracty - I am sure you find lots and lots of companies that will fit you better then. You say CCP needs more competition? Nothing like Eve is even near the horizon. All the games (except maybe infinity, but they are not clear about this so far) are designed to be played on different servers and only with few people online, few compared to Eve. Say what you want, especially about game mechanics and small aspects of the game, but the service CCP provides with Eve is stunning - compared to that what all exist out there. Examples are already given in the thread here by previous posters.

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