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Sgt Napalm
Destructive Influence
Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2007.11.07 15:40:00 -
[1]
Have I missed anything concerning this? Has their been any news/stuff on SiSi to counter cloaking? There was the rumor of being able to probe them out for Trinity.
Disclaimer: This thread is about a counter to cloaking, not if it is right or not
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Delnas
White-Noise
Skunk-Works
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Posted - 2007.11.07 19:31:00 -
[2]
 Originally by: Sgt Napalm
Have I missed anything concerning this? Has their been any news/stuff on SiSi to counter cloaking? There was the rumor of being able to probe them out for Trinity.
Disclaimer: This thread is about a counter to cloaking, not if it is right or not
Not that I've seen. And, that disclaimer... nobody is going to read it.
Besides, this is the perfect place to mention the true problem with cloaking; Not auto-disconnecting if you don't do anything for 30 minutes.
****
White-Noise
Nuff said. |
ViolenTUK
Gallente
Vindicated Exiles
101010 Alliance
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Posted - 2007.11.07 19:39:00 -
[3]
Cloaked ships wont be able to be probed out in Trinity CCP arent stupid enough to do somthing like that. A counter to cloaking is very different to nerfing cloaking. If you could probe out cloaked ships then they wouldnt actualy be cloaked. Cloaks are nerfed enough anyway and they dont need a nerf.
Cloaking is fine as it is.
www.eve-players.com |
Bolt Zapper
Gallente
Altera Odyssea
Tau Ceti Federation
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Posted - 2007.11.07 20:03:00 -
[4]
Originally by: ViolenTUK
Cloaked ships wont be able to be probed out in Trinity CCP arent stupid enough to do somthing like that. A counter to cloaking is very different to nerfing cloaking. If you could probe out cloaked ships then they wouldnt actualy be cloaked. Cloaks are nerfed enough anyway and they dont need a nerf.
Cloaking is fine as it is.
QFT. Try getting past a determined 0.0 gatecamp in a Blockade Runner, a cloak won't save you in 99.5% of situations. As for being scanned/probed while cloaked, that would totally undermine the whole cloaking concept.
Cloaks are fine, they don't need buffing and they certainly don't need nerfing.
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Mudkest
MetaForge
Ekliptika
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Posted - 2007.11.07 20:03:00 -
[5]
Originally by: Delnas
Originally by: Sgt Napalm
Have I missed anything concerning this? Has their been any news/stuff on SiSi to counter cloaking? There was the rumor of being able to probe them out for Trinity.
Disclaimer: This thread is about a counter to cloaking, not if it is right or not
Not that I've seen. And, that disclaimer... nobody is going to read it.
I did, after you mentioned it .. thought it was part of siggie so ignored it...
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GIEV custom ship paint jobs!
I want my hello-kitty-kessie!
For your safety do not destroy vital testing apparatus |
Arcord
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Posted - 2007.11.07 20:07:00 -
[6]
Originally by: ViolenTUK
Cloaked ships wont be able to be probed out in Trinity CCP arent stupid enough to do somthing like that. A counter to cloaking is very different to nerfing cloaking. If you could probe out cloaked ships then they wouldnt actualy be cloaked. Cloaks are nerfed enough anyway and they dont need a nerf.
Cloaking is fine as it is.
well, apparently you dont have to deal with macro ratters in your region...
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Meditril
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Posted - 2007.11.07 20:44:00 -
[7]
The counter to cloak is named local. All cloaked ships are shown in local isn't that enough counter for you?
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Sgt Napalm
Destructive Influence
Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2007.11.08 04:15:00 -
[8]
Wait till you all try dealing with cloaked ratting ravens, yes they need a boost hard. 
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Delnas
White-Noise
Skunk-Works
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Posted - 2007.11.08 04:50:00 -
[9]
Cloaked ratting Ravens infest my part of space hard. I hunt them constantly, and rarely manage to kill them as they warp as soon as I come in local.
I still don't think Cloakers should be able to be probed.
****
White-Noise
Nuff said. |
VJ Maverick
Caldari
Maverick Specialized Services
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Posted - 2007.11.08 04:53:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Delnas
Cloaked ratting Ravens infest my part of space hard. I hunt them constantly, and rarely manage to kill them as they warp as soon as I come in local.
I still don't think Cloakers should be able to be probed.
Exacty. The problem is local, not cloaking.
Originally by: Bodhisattvas
by the way you keep on missing the "a" from pwn, do you need any help with its pl |
Kiviar
Caldari
Vice-Presidential Action Rangers
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Posted - 2007.11.08 05:15:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Delnas
Not auto-disconnecting if you don't do anything for 30 minutes.
I have to agree. Auto logging off after some time of inactivity would solve a the problem of people just sitting in system cloaked all day afk. It would also have the added benefit of clearing up juta a bunch. Other than that, Cloaking is fine as it is.
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Forums are what? |
Riho
Magnificent Beavers
Exquisite Malevolence
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Posted - 2007.11.08 07:45:00 -
[12]
as others have said.... problem isnt cloaking... its local chat.
ppl should only appear in this chat when they have spoken... kinda like alliance chat
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Dahin
Maza Nostra
oooh Shiny
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Posted - 2007.11.08 08:30:00 -
[13]
Why on earth would a cloaker have a problem with getting probed?
Oh... you mean those people that want an "can't touch this" button?
Yeh, those would have a problem I guess.
I have never begged CCP to nerf me as much as I do with cloaks.
They boost the probes that needed no boost and won't nerf cloaks that need a nerf.
I got an idea:
DO NOT GIVE ME 100 BIL OVEUR
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slothe
Caldari
0utbreak
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Posted - 2007.11.08 08:42:00 -
[14]
you need to be able to probe them tbh. it should be a specialised ship with specialised skills.
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kessah
Blood Corsair's
Blood Blind
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Posted - 2007.11.08 09:15:00 -
[15]
Originally by: ViolenTUK
Cloaked ships wont be able to be probed out in Trinity CCP arent stupid enough to do somthing like that. A counter to cloaking is very different to nerfing cloaking. If you could probe out cloaked ships then they wouldnt actualy be cloaked. Cloaks are nerfed enough anyway and they dont need a nerf.
Cloaking is fine as it is.
If you have to say its 'fine as it is' then it most probably isnt because if it was fine ud not even need to say, CCP doesnt give into whinging
CCP know what needs nerfing and boosting.
I think the ability to ping would be a nice addition.
[Video] Forever Pirate 3
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Si'dun Took
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Posted - 2007.11.08 09:35:00 -
[16]
Local chat and cloaking are fine. Cloaking is WAY easy to uncloak by proximity and you cant even cloak once someone has STARTED to target you, even before the lock is secured. This basically just makes cloaking useful in asteroid belts and etc. people should be able to know whether there MIGHT or MIGHT NOT be someone cloaked. to say that people shouldnt know if someone is in system is lame. If they do that then they shouldnt make it so warp bubbles stop you midwarp before you reach a stargate. Its the same principle of knowing weather there might be a risk or not. Otherwise people can just do system scans anyway and that would just waste everyones time and have the same affect.
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Sola Sun
Jita Trade Services
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Posted - 2007.11.08 09:35:00 -
[17]
Leave "full-function" cloaking to specialized ships: recon and covops.
Abusing it on battleships for "no risk - big reward" ISK farming or "playing alone and 99% getting away" is over top.
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Ione Hunt
0utbreak
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Posted - 2007.11.08 09:58:00 -
[18]
In my opinion there shouldn't be a counter to cloaking specialized ships like covops, recons, bombers, and blackops. Those ships use cloaking as their main "weapon", they trade in firepower and tank for the ability to cloak. So there's nothing to "fix"!
However, all non-cloaking-specialized ships like cloaking Ravens (I mean...WTF???) should either be probable, or receive an extremely strong drawback for fitting a cloak...such as disabling all highslot modules if the cloak is fitted. This would still allow for travel setups, which is fine imo...but will not allow you to fight and hide AT THE SAME TIME in ships that weren't designed for it.
_______________
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Catelco
Segunda Fundacion
O X I D E
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Posted - 2007.11.08 10:18:00 -
[19]
Just make cloak use cap (it seems logic to use cap on modules that need activation after all).
Give bonus to naturally born cloaking ships to cap usage so they can permacloak, while regular ships consume their cap after a while. This way non specialized ships can stay cloacked for a short time, but enough time to go out of troubles. You can always uncrease your cap and stay cloaked longer, at the cost of gimping your fitting.
Or just make the covert-op cloack II 100% invisible and the other ones probeables with a specific probe that takes some time to fully scan.
Whatever, I think there are plenty of solutions that will help specialized ships to stay as they are now and to nerf ISK-cloaked farmers
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Hugh Ruka
Caldari
Exploratio et Industria Morispatia
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Posted - 2007.11.08 10:31:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Catelco
Just make cloak use cap (it seems logic to use cap on modules that need activation after all).
Give bonus to naturally born cloaking ships to cap usage so they can permacloak, while regular ships consume their cap after a while. This way non specialized ships can stay cloacked for a short time, but enough time to go out of troubles. You can always uncrease your cap and stay cloaked longer, at the cost of gimping your fitting.
Or just make the covert-op cloack II 100% invisible and the other ones probeables with a specific probe that takes some time to fully scan.
Whatever, I think there are plenty of solutions that will help specialized ships to stay as they are now and to nerf ISK-cloaked farmers
This.
And make cloaks disable shield recharge when active. It won't hurt covop cloakers as they avoid getting shot at at all cost and will nerf the ratting ravens a bit :-)
Aggro timer on non-covop cloaks maybe ? So when you engage a non-covop cloak, you cannot log off instantly.
Originally by: Aravel Thon
Originally by: Nith Batoxxx
Hi my alt just leanred to fly the ferox...............
I am so so terribly sorry...
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D CENT
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Posted - 2007.11.08 11:11:00 -
[21]
If they nerf the cloak then the covert ops ships become useless and omg what a waste of design time!
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arbalesttom
Caldari
Glauxian Brothers
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Posted - 2007.11.08 11:28:00 -
[22]
Edited by: arbalesttom on 08/11/2007 11:28:55
So just because you have to deal with macro ratters you want to nerf cloaking?
Cloaking is fine right now, it has serious drawbacks and it can help save your ass if needed. Besides that, it would been rediculous if you could probe a cloaker, because the whole point of cloaking to stay unseen for the enemy. This really reminds me of the wcs whines you see once in a while.....
Edit: Back to your caves!
*
**
***
****
*****
Phear my sig!
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Alty McAltypants
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Posted - 2007.11.08 11:33:00 -
[23]
Move local chat to constellation chat.
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Hannobaal
Gallente
Igneus Auctorita
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2007.11.08 11:33:00 -
[24]
Edited by: Hannobaal on 08/11/2007 11:36:44
There is already a counter to cloaked ships. You get within 2km and they decloak. A cloaked ship sitting in a safespot somewhere in a system is no threat to anyone and doesn't need a counter.
As for ratting Ravens with cloaks. What's the problem?
Disclaimer: I haven't been ratting anywhere for months, I don't plan on ever doing it again (I get ISK from my industrial alt and ratting is boring), and when I used to do it I was in DMC and did it in the very center of our space with no risks whatsoever. With that out of the way...
First of all, the Ravens are no problem. They are no threat to anyone, and they don't compete for resources considering the battleship rats they kill are plentiful and replenish constantly. As for ISK selling, it's the sellers and the buyers that are the real problem, not the farmers. Take those two out and there'd be no farmers. The farmers are just doing what we players do.
Secondly, take out the cloaks and the Raven warps to a safe spot and logs off. Same thing, except for the minor inconvenience of him now having to log on and off to check if you're still there. You still can't touch him. Take out the ability to simply log off and he just warps between safe spots and random points in the system. Now he's inconvenienced by having to sit at the computer (but will know when you leave), but you still can't catch him.
Finally, for the people who say only certain ships should be able to fit cloaks, you're wrong. Only certain ships are meant to fit a cov ops cloaks. That's why they have insanely high cpu requirements and the ships meant to use them get a fitting bonus. If CCP meant for only certain ships to be able to use the other cloaks, they would have done the same for them. If a ship can fit an improved cloak with ease, then there is no problem with it fitting a cloak. As it is, they are already heavily penalized when they use one.
What needs fixing is local chat, so only people who speak in the local channel show up. That would solve all probkems that people associate with cloaking: Ratting Ravens can be caught, no 0.0 carebears can be terrorized by afk cloakers, and cloaked ships get to actually be truly sneaky and invisible just like they are supposed to be.
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Alty McAltypants
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Posted - 2007.11.08 11:36:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Hannobaal
What needs fixing is local chat, so only people who speak in the local channel show up. That would solve all probkems that people associate with cloaking: Ratting Ravens can be caught, no 0.0 carebears can be terrorized by afk cloakers, and cloaked ships get to actually be truly sneaky and invisible just like they are supposed to be.
no because no 1 will speak and be invis
hence move local to constellation
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Hannobaal
Gallente
Igneus Auctorita
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2007.11.08 11:39:00 -
[26]
Edited by: Hannobaal on 08/11/2007 11:40:27
Originally by: Alty McAltypants
no because no 1 will speak and be invis
hence move local to constellation
Same exact thing. In either case you won't know who is in the system, or if there is anyone there at all. That's the point.
The only difference is that with your way, an afk cloaker can still scare people from mining or ratting. And now he can do it for an entire constellation at a time.
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Alty McAltypants
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Posted - 2007.11.08 14:02:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Hannobaal
Edited by: Hannobaal on 08/11/2007 11:40:27
Originally by: Alty McAltypants
no because no 1 will speak and be invis
hence move local to constellation
Same exact thing. In either case you won't know who is in the system, or if there is anyone there at all. That's the point.
The only difference is that with your way, an afk cloaker can still scare people from mining or ratting. And now he can do it for an entire constellation at a time.
logic failure mefinks, perhaps move local to regional chat and when hostile enter region everyone logoff, lulz
there are places people know other people are when they enter a system: belt, planet, station, moon.
replace local with constellation and now you have number of systems in constellation x belts, planets, station, moons - more places to look, more places to hide...people will get lazy or more paranoid but then thats down to player.
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VJ Maverick
Caldari
Maverick Specialized Services
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Posted - 2007.11.08 14:03:00 -
[28]
Nerfing cloaking will do absolutely nothing to solve the rat-farmer problem. Instead of cloaking, they will simply log off. The problem is and has always been with local. For as long as local is used as an instant intelligence tool, people who want to avoid encounters will find a way to do so.
Originally by: Bodhisattvas
by the way you keep on missing the "a" from pwn, do you need any help with its pl |
Hannobaal
Gallente
Igneus Auctorita
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2007.11.08 17:58:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Alty McAltypants
Originally by: Hannobaal
Edited by: Hannobaal on 08/11/2007 11:40:27
Originally by: Alty McAltypants
no because no 1 will speak and be invis
hence move local to constellation
Same exact thing. In either case you won't know who is in the system, or if there is anyone there at all. That's the point.
The only difference is that with your way, an afk cloaker can still scare people from mining or ratting. And now he can do it for an entire constellation at a time.
logic failure mefinks, perhaps move local to regional chat and when hostile enter region everyone logoff, lulz
there are places people know other people are when they enter a system: belt, planet, station, moon.
replace local with constellation and now you have number of systems in constellation x belts, planets, station, moons - more places to look, more places to hide...people will get lazy or more paranoid but then thats down to player.
Make it so that people only show up in local when they write something in the channel, and you have all of Eve x belts, planets, station, moons.  If you think about it, I think you'll see how it makes it both a lot more difficult and a lot easier for everyone. It will be balanced and without the problems we have with it right now.
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queen1121
Empire Dreams
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Posted - 2007.11.08 18:41:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Hannobaal
Edited by: Hannobaal on 08/11/2007 11:40:27
Originally by: Alty McAltypants
no because no 1 will speak and be invis
hence move local to constellation
Same exact thing. In either case you won't know who is in the system, or if there is anyone there at all. That's the point.
The only difference is that with your way, an afk cloaker can still scare people from mining or ratting. And now he can do it for an entire constellation at a time.
And there's nothing miner/npcer can do, especially if it's one of those login few alts pvper after something's scrambled
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Vicious Phoenix
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Posted - 2007.11.08 18:45:00 -
[31]
I thought there was a dev blog a while back where they said that Covert Ops cloaks would remain unchanged but that non-covert ships (like cloaking BS) would be probable.
CFW (Certified Forum Warrior)
I kill people ingame too.
Originally by: CCP Tuxford
I prefer dew over pepsi. I prefer beer over most things. Damn now I want beer.
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Iva Soreass
FireStar Inc
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Posted - 2007.11.08 18:50:00 -
[32]
I saw some one post something before, was something like "make non cov ops//recon ships use some sorta fuel to use cloaks" that would put a huge dent in ravens and such.
[20:03:51] Ciprian > no pls i have snakes
www.firestar-online.com |
Grey Area
Caldari
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Posted - 2007.11.08 21:06:00 -
[33]
Sheesh. I leave the forums for about 6 months and when I come back it's like they were frozen in time.
This has been done to death. A cloak is its own counter. Look at the stats again. If you are worried that the cloaked ratting Raven might actually be hunting you, then fear not. In return for fitting the cloak he has to wait around 20 seconds after decloaking before he can turn any of his modules on and he gets a 40% scan resolution penalty, meaning you will have locked him LONG before he locks you.
No, offlining the cloak does no avoid the 40% scan resolution penalty. And if he does that, he's no longer cloaked anyway, is he?
Seriously, there are a lot more things worthy of your attention than this.
---
I don't mind you disagreeing with me. Just don't say I don't have the SKILLS to comment. |
queen1121
Empire Dreams
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Posted - 2007.11.08 21:45:00 -
[34]
Originally by: Grey Area
Sheesh. I leave the forums for about 6 months and when I come back it's like they were frozen in time.
This has been done to death. A cloak is its own counter. Look at the stats again. If you are worried that the cloaked ratting Raven might actually be hunting you, then fear not. In return for fitting the cloak he has to wait around 20 seconds after decloaking before he can turn any of his modules on and he gets a 40% scan resolution penalty, meaning you will have locked him LONG before he locks you.
No, offlining the cloak does no avoid the 40% scan resolution penalty. And if he does that, he's no longer cloaked anyway, is he?
Seriously, there are a lot more things worthy of your attention than this.
How about a gang of sabre(with cloak, but can drop bubble instantly), 2-3 recons and 2-3 cloaking ravens with damps.
How do you fight that?
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LUKEC
Destructive Influence
Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2007.11.08 21:50:00 -
[35]
Originally by: Iva Soreass
I saw some one post something before, was something like "make non cov ops//recon ships use some sorta fuel to use cloaks" that would put a huge dent in ravens and such.
I think it was my idea(or at least posted on eve o by me) but devs don't listen to me since I'm bob ... 
And poster above kinda touched core of cloak problem. It's not the isk farmers only, but it's like ... on gang ships bigger than frigs :/
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ViolenTUK
Gallente
Vindicated Exiles
101010 Alliance
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Posted - 2007.11.09 01:07:00 -
[36]
Originally by: Ione Hunt
or receive an extremely strong drawback for fitting a cloak...such as disabling all highslot modules if the cloak is fitted. This would still allow for travel setups, which is fine imo...but will not allow you to fight and hide AT THE SAME TIME in ships that weren't designed for it.
You CANT use your high slots anyway when you are cloaked and you CANT fight and hide. If you are in a non covert ops ship if you decloak you have a massive delay in pvp terms before you can fire.
Cloaking is already nerfed enough.
www.eve-players.com |
Keith Olbermann
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Posted - 2007.11.09 01:10:00 -
[37]
Originally by: Arcord
Originally by: ViolenTUK
Cloaked ships wont be able to be probed out in Trinity CCP arent stupid enough to do somthing like that. A counter to cloaking is very different to nerfing cloaking. If you could probe out cloaked ships then they wouldnt actualy be cloaked. Cloaks are nerfed enough anyway and they dont need a nerf.
Cloaking is fine as it is.
well, apparently you dont have to deal with macro ratters in your region...
no, they take isk from them and let them live there.
thus supporting selling isk
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Xzar Fyrarr
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Posted - 2007.11.09 02:50:00 -
[38]
cloaking is absolutely fine imo.
They cloak? ho hum onboard scanner , there ship dont show up they are cloaked?
WAPOW, we now know they are cloaked somewhere in local.
How to find them?
Thats for you to find out.
How to counter cloakers?
Skills, sensor boosters do the trick am I right?
Catching cloakers?
Hard, yes it is.
Impossible absolutely not.
Catching Cloaking ratting ravens?
Impossible... nope...
Hard... yup...
Why nerf something that truly in all do respects doesn't need nerfing?
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LUKEC
Destructive Influence
Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2007.11.09 07:11:00 -
[39]
Originally by: ViolenTUK
Originally by: Ione Hunt
or receive an extremely strong drawback for fitting a cloak...such as disabling all highslot modules if the cloak is fitted. This would still allow for travel setups, which is fine imo...but will not allow you to fight and hide AT THE SAME TIME in ships that weren't designed for it.
You CANT use your high slots anyway when you are cloaked and you CANT fight and hide. If you are in a non covert ops ship if you decloak you have a massive delay in pvp terms before you can fire.
Cloaking is already nerfed enough.
Not at all. You can fit a sensor booster and you're pretty even with improved cloak. It's not about hiding, it's about no delay after jumping, no delay when you're decloaked...
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hellsknights
Hells Angels Inc.
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Posted - 2007.11.09 07:18:00 -
[40]
Originally by: Kiviar
Originally by: Delnas
Not auto-disconnecting if you don't do anything for 30 minutes.
I have to agree. Auto logging off after some time of inactivity would solve a the problem of people just sitting in system cloaked all day afk. It would also have the added benefit of clearing up juta a bunch. Other than that, Cloaking is fine as it is.
How would this solve cloaking in system?????? Make a SS, warp to it cloak up, double click in a random direction.......Im not being
inactive, right?
So local enemies disrupting 0.0 alliances is good and it won't change, viva el cloaked red guy.
recruitment thread Join channel Hells Angels Inc
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Ryan Darkwolf
Amarr
Viziam
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Posted - 2007.11.09 08:19:00 -
[41]
Cloaking needs no nerf...
Apart from lowering you sig res and making it extremely difficult to move when cloaked..cloaked ships also get the recalibration error thing after being uncloacked..meaning you have anywhere from 5 to 7 secs to get out or 5 to 7 secs to lock onto the cloaked ship and warp scram and web the bastard..(assuming you proximity decloacked him/her.)
STOP WITH THE NERF WHINES PPL...THE GAME WAS FINE HOW IT WAS A YEAR AGO UNTIL YOU ALL CAME IN COMPLAINING
(That last but was not directed at the OP as the OP wasn't whining about anything)
-------------------
Originally by: Arenis Xemdal
Argh, my brain. Buying keyboards should be like buying cigarettes, over 18 with photo ID.
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Zendoc
Sebiestor tribe
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Posted - 2007.11.09 09:13:00 -
[42]
Cloaking does need a counter, and flying within 2km of a ship to decloak it is a terrible counter for anything with the exception of cloaking battleships, which are really not the problem with cloaking.
The problem with cloaking as I see it, are gangs of force recons that can come into an alliance's home system, and just sit in the asteroid belts for days on end picking off anyone who tries to mine or rat without it being a fleet operation.
I mean seriously, how do you counter a cloaked rapier/arazu backed up by a cloaked eos? The answer is you don't. They can sit in your system indeffiantely, for months at a time, picking off your ratters completely risk free.
I would like to see a counter for cloaking in systems where your alliance has sovereignty, perhaps some kind of POS radar that allows you to probe out cloakers or see them on scanner.
Ganking people in belts is fine as is ganking people at gates, but sitting in someone's "home system" for 3 months making it an inhospitable place for them to fly at any given time, is not cool and it needs a counter.
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ViolenTUK
Gallente
Vindicated Exiles
101010 Alliance
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Posted - 2007.11.09 10:40:00 -
[43]
Originally by: LUKEC
Not at all. You can fit a sensor booster and you're pretty even with improved cloak. It's not about hiding, it's about no delay after jumping, no delay when you're decloaked...
No doesnt work like that. You have a delay before you can operate your targeting systems after you decloak and your sensor booster wont help you.
www.eve-players.com |
LUKEC
Destructive Influence
Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2007.11.09 10:47:00 -
[44]
Originally by: ViolenTUK
Originally by: LUKEC
Not at all. You can fit a sensor booster and you're pretty even with improved cloak. It's not about hiding, it's about no delay after jumping, no delay when you're decloaked...
No doesnt work like that. You have a delay before you can operate your targeting systems after you decloak and your sensor booster wont help you.
I know perfectly well how cloaks work, thank you. And only idiots would sit cloaked on the gate waiting for something, it doesn't work like this. It's like you sit on gate aligned to safe, shoot something, if something too big you warp out and cloak. Penalty don't do fck all. It's getting like ... nanocloaks-online tbh. Cloak on every ship pretty much(hi rzr).
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Markus Aurelian
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Posted - 2007.11.09 11:05:00 -
[45]
Originally by: Zendoc
Edited by: Zendoc on 09/11/2007 09:18:45
Cloaking does need a counter, and flying within 2km of a ship to decloak it is a terrible counter for anything with the exception of cloaking battleships, which are really not the problem with cloaking.
The problem with cloaking as I see it, are gangs of force recons that can come into an alliance's home system, and just sit in the asteroid belts for days on end picking off anyone who tries to mine or rat without it being a fleet operation.
I mean seriously, how do you counter a cloaked rapier/arazu backed up by a cloaked eos? The answer is you don't. They can sit in your system indeffiantely, for months at a time, picking off your ratters completely risk free.
I would like to see a counter for cloaking in systems where your alliance has sovereignty, perhaps some kind of POS radar that allows you to probe out cloakers or see them on scanner.
Ganking people in belts is fine as is ganking people at gates, but sitting in someone's "home system" for 3 months making it an inhospitable place for them to fly at any given time, is not cool and it needs a counter.
I haven't seen cheese this bad since npc 1000000-hit combos in Killer Instinct.
its called denial-of-territory. you make a place inhospitable for an alliance, they either have to outsmart you (bait ships ftw?) or leave. if you cant evict a gang of cruisers from your home system then maybe you dont deserve it.
Meatwad FTW |
Hannobaal
Gallente
Igneus Auctorita
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2007.11.09 11:12:00 -
[46]
Originally by: Markus Aurelian
if you cant evict a gang of cruisers from your home system then maybe you dont deserve it.
QFT
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Ally Poo
Caldari
Clan Shadow Wolf
Sylph Alliance
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Posted - 2007.11.09 11:18:00 -
[47]
Edited by: Ally Poo on 09/11/2007 11:20:17
Originally by: Bolt Zapper
Originally by: ViolenTUK
Cloaked ships wont be able to be probed out in Trinity CCP arent stupid enough to do somthing like that. A counter to cloaking is very different to nerfing cloaking. If you could probe out cloaked ships then they wouldnt actualy be cloaked. Cloaks are nerfed enough anyway and they dont need a nerf.
Cloaking is fine as it is.
QFT. Try getting past a determined 0.0 gatecamp in a Blockade Runner, a cloak won't save you in 99.5% of situations. As for being scanned/probed while cloaked, that would totally undermine the whole cloaking concept.
Cloaks are fine, they don't need buffing and they certainly don't need nerfing.
Agreed
EDIT: oh btw, if your having problems, get a smartbomb and goto planet 1 or the local star. 
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Sleep is for the Dead. |
Satura
Caldari
Mucho Dolor
The Insomniacs
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Posted - 2007.11.09 11:23:00 -
[48]
Quote:
Catching cloakers?
Hard, yes it is.
Impossible absolutely not.
Catching Cloaking ratting ravens?
Impossible... nope...
Hard... yup...
Why nerf something that truly in all do respects doesn't need nerfing?
Can't catch a decent BS pilot with a cloak. You just can't. A raven can stay aligned at all times, see local grow...=> warp => cloak.
A cloak on a ratting battleship has almost NO drawback. Fit a sensor booster II and the locking time is okish. And most battleships have "free" high slots anyway, due to split weapon system.
If the guy doesn't have a POS, and wouldn't have a cloak, only than he would be hard to catch. With a cloak it is impossible if he knows when to run.
People fit cloaks on their ratting battleships because they are lazy (miself included), and don't want to just make safespots, warp between them, delete them, make other safespots, and so on. Is also pretty impossible to catch someone who does that too, that's why i wouldn't mind if cloaks get nerfed on non specialized ships. I'd make them use a lot more cpu, so no more room for pew pew weapons and stuff. |
Ione Hunt
0utbreak
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Posted - 2007.11.09 11:28:00 -
[49]
Originally by: ViolenTUK
Originally by: LUKEC
Not at all. You can fit a sensor booster and you're pretty even with improved cloak. It's not about hiding, it's about no delay after jumping, no delay when you're decloaked...
No doesnt work like that. You have a delay before you can operate your targeting systems after you decloak and your sensor booster wont help you.
There are special ships that are geared towards fighting with cloaks, those are just fine as they are now. But all the other ships should NOT be allowed to fit a cloak AND fight in any way. If you fit a cloak on a non-recon/bomber/covops/blackops you want to hide, not fight...ergo you shouldn't be allowed to fit turrets/missiles/drones when fitting a cloak.
The decloaking penalty is not enough of a penalty on non-cloak-specced ships becaus if you are in a cloaking raven for example, you can just sit 100km+ off a gate cloaked, and you will still lock the enemy long before he gets in range to hurt/scramble you.
I think the only people arguing against an increased cloak penalty for non-cloak-spec ships are those who don't want to lose their unkillable zero-risk ratting ravens. And no, the whole "but without cloak they'd just ss anyway" isn't a valid exuse because then I can at least probe that ship.
_______________
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Markus Aurelian
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Posted - 2007.11.09 11:31:00 -
[50]
Edited by: Markus Aurelian on 09/11/2007 11:36:51
seriously, its not like youre getting wtfpwnt by a cloak raven. if you are, then you seriously need to pack your stuff up and go back to empire. and if its YOUR HOME SYSTEM, and YOU ARE NOT CAPABLE OF SECURING IT, then you need to GTFO because you DONT DESERVE YOUR SPACE. if you want easy ganks, get a mom and sit in lowsec before trinity goes live. get a tissue and deal with it. its an internet starsystem, if you cant get someone to leave your virtual treehouse, too bad.
Meatwad FTW |
Malvahne
Sativah Holandica
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Posted - 2007.11.09 11:35:00 -
[51]
Edited by: Malvahne on 09/11/2007 11:36:02
Edited by: Malvahne on 09/11/2007 11:35:35
Jesus **** what a whining bunch of people there are. Nerf this, nerf that.
This is the one part of mmo's I have always disliked. The amount of whining babies becous they may not be able to kill a serten player (OH NOESSS). All of you need to realice one thing tho ones the developers start nerfing something the people who are affected by said nerf will start to whine about something els to nerf becous well **** they got nerfed so so should you.
But to be hounest looking at this forum these days and the amount of random changes/nerfs ccp is implenting its already to late.
Congratulations in making EvE your typical MMO where things you fly/use will 'change' every 3/4 odd months.
******* tards.
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Hannobaal
Gallente
Igneus Auctorita
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2007.11.09 11:38:00 -
[52]
Originally by: Satura
Quote:
Catching cloakers?
Hard, yes it is.
Impossible absolutely not.
Catching Cloaking ratting ravens?
Impossible... nope...
Hard... yup...
Why nerf something that truly in all do respects doesn't need nerfing?
Can't catch a decent BS pilot with a cloak. You just can't. A raven can stay aligned at all times, see local grow...=> warp => cloak.
A cloak on a ratting battleship has almost NO drawback. Fit a sensor booster II and the locking time is okish. And most battleships have "free" high slots anyway, due to split weapon system.
If the guy doesn't have a POS, and wouldn't have a cloak, only than he would be hard to catch. With a cloak it is impossible if he knows when to run.
People fit cloaks on their ratting battleships because they are lazy (miself included), and don't want to just make safespots, warp between them, delete them, make other safespots, and so on. Is also pretty impossible to catch someone who does that too, that's why i wouldn't mind if cloaks get nerfed on non specialized ships. I'd make them use a lot more cpu, so no more room for pew pew weapons and stuff.
It's always impossible to catch a pilot who knows what he is doing and watches local, with or without a cloak. Cloak just means he can go afk while he waits for you to leave and still instantly see if you're there or not when he comes back.
The problem is local, not cloaks.
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Zendoc
Sebiestor tribe
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Posted - 2007.11.09 11:46:00 -
[53]
man you guys have some anger issues.
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Malvahne
Sativah Holandica
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Posted - 2007.11.09 11:48:00 -
[54]
Originally by: Zendoc
man you guys have some anger issues.
I get like that after a while reading nothing but nerf this, change that, boost me, ballance you.
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Zendoc
Sebiestor tribe
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Posted - 2007.11.09 11:50:00 -
[55]
Edited by: Zendoc on 09/11/2007 11:54:45
Edited by: Zendoc on 09/11/2007 11:53:06
There are plenty of cheesie tactics in eve, everyone knows that. Cloaking is deffinately one of them. It takes absolutely no talent to sit cloaked in an asteroid belt picking off miners for easy ganks.
The problem is, when people use it for cheese, it needs a counter. Cheese with no counter is not fun. :(
Also, changing local chat will just make the game even MORE slow paced than it is already. You would have have to scan/probe every system you enter looking for targets. The only thing that makes small scale pvp bearable right now is jumping in to a system, seeing some people in local, and hoping you have some targets to fight, even if you do have to probe/scan them out.
The problem is cloaks, not local. i mean its a completely free directional, 3 dimensional map with almost infinate space to move around in, the chance of stumbling upon someone who is cloaked is nearly 0. Especially if they are constantly moving.
Maybe have there be a mod that decloaks people in a radius from a ship, similar to a smartbomb. That way you can still get the jump on people if you are crafty, but also you can't just take advantage of having infinate space to gank people in.
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Hannobaal
Gallente
Igneus Auctorita
GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2007.11.09 12:41:00 -
[56]
Originally by: Zendoc
Edited by: Zendoc on 09/11/2007 11:54:45
Edited by: Zendoc on 09/11/2007 11:53:06
There are plenty of cheesie tactics in eve, everyone knows that. Cloaking is deffinately one of them. It takes absolutely no talent to sit cloaked in an asteroid belt picking off miners for easy ganks.
You can't catch someone doing that in your space, you don't deserve to be in 0.0.
Quote:
The problem is, when people use it for cheese, it needs a counter. Cheese with no counter is not fun. :
More cheesy than using local as a recon tool?
Quote:
Also, changing local chat will just make the game even MORE slow paced than it is already. You would have have to scan/probe every system you enter looking for targets. The only thing that makes small scale pvp bearable right now is jumping in to a system, seeing some people in local, and hoping you have some targets to fight, even if you do have to probe/scan them out.
You will never, ever catch a pilot who is paying attention to local, knows what he is doing, and doesn't want to be caught by scanning or probing. If nothing else he'll just warp to a safe and log off.
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Peace Cot
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Posted - 2007.11.09 12:43:00 -
[57]
Ok how about this as a plausable solution (note: covert ops/recons/ covert battleships should be unaffected)
You cant activate a cloak on a non-covertops ship within range of a scan probe based on these criteria.
20 AU range or less cant cloak a BS or larger
15 AU or less cant cloak a BC
10 AU or less cant cloak a Cruiser/Hauler
5 AU or less cant cloak a frigate
eg: You are unable to activate "Improved Cloaking device II", because your battleship is within 20 AU of an active scan probe.
If the cloak is already active before the scan probe is dropped then you are safe and stay cloaked.
This means at least 4 things:
A) If you jump into a system and somone trys to safespot and cloak you have a chance to catch them outright by bringing a probing ship if they stay in the same safespot and cant cloak.
B) They get a warning that they are being probed allowing them time to either warp to a new safespot, align for a dock or whatever they feel is needed to escape being probed.
C) They have a perfectly good and fair chance of evading you, but you also have a tangeble chance of catching them. Lets face it even without a cloak its not hard to safspot bounce and not get caught anyway. But it means they cant just ss  cloak go afk.
D) If they uncloak (say to gank someone), you can force them to stay uncloaked.
Note: of course if they happen to be farming in a large system you have less chance of getting a covert ops ship in a position to drop a probe that covers the safespot they use with the correct range probe. Which involves either having a good amount of book marks and a rough idea of where thier safspot might be or pure dumb luck 
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Ruah Piskonit
Amarr
PIE Inc.
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Posted - 2007.11.09 12:54:00 -
[58]
Originally by: slothe
you need to be able to probe them tbh. it should be a specialised ship with specialised skills.
This
Cloaking should have a counter of some kind - some way to find them if you are determined. I can't really say how that will be - but - I agree with slothe that it should be a specialized ship with a specilized set of skills and a mod to boot.
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mii'yoggi
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Posted - 2007.11.09 12:56:00 -
[59]
WILL IT EVER END
#NERF WHINGE POWER CCP#
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Paulo Damarr
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Posted - 2007.11.09 13:31:00 -
[60]
Edited by: Paulo Damarr on 09/11/2007 13:35:49
Originally by: Arcord
well, apparently you dont have to deal with macro ratters in your region...
How would a "macro" know exactly when to cloak? a Macro just repeats a series of instructions repeatedly.
Originally by: Zendoc
The problem with cloaking as I see it, are gangs of force recons that can come into an alliance's home system, and just sit in the asteroid belts for days on end picking off anyone who tries to mine or rat without it being a fleet operation.
This is a fairly standard and useful tactic in war, its known as a "logistical Interdiction" they prevent the ratting and accumulation of funds and resources thus weakening their enemy.
Originally by: MOTOK0
A bit like the second coming of jesus only with screaming and tears and whine threads.
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Markus Aurelian
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Posted - 2007.11.09 13:43:00 -
[61]
Originally by: Paulo Damarr
Edited by: Paulo Damarr on 09/11/2007 13:35:49
Originally by: Arcord
well, apparently you dont have to deal with macro ratters in your region...
How would a "macro" know exactly when to cloak? a Macro just repeats a series of instructions repeatedly.
Originally by: Zendoc
The problem with cloaking as I see it, are gangs of force recons that can come into an alliance's home system, and just sit in the asteroid belts for days on end picking off anyone who tries to mine or rat without it being a fleet operation.
This is a fairly standard and useful tactic in war, its known as a "logistical Interdiction" they prevent the ratting and accumulation of funds and resources thus weakening their enemy.
this tbh
if you control space, and are unwilling or unable to take the steps necessary to prevent unauthorized entry then you have 0 right to complain about people in your systems, and if they cloak and warp to SS when you enter...theyre not going to be doing much damage to you are they? maybe just make an alt, put a cloak on a crappy ship, put it in system and cloak it and force them to leave. if they uncloak, come in and wtfpwn them.
there are too many emo tears over nothing in this thread.
Meatwad FTW |
ViolenTUK
Gallente
Vindicated Exiles
101010 Alliance
|
Posted - 2007.11.09 21:38:00 -
[62]
Originally by: Ione Hunt
There are special ships that are geared towards fighting with cloaks, those are just fine as they are now. But all the other ships should NOT be allowed to fit a cloak AND fight in any way. If you fit a cloak on a non-recon/bomber/covops/blackops you want to hide, not fight...ergo you shouldn't be allowed to fit turrets/missiles/drones when fitting a cloak.
The decloaking penalty is not enough of a penalty on non-cloak-specced ships becaus if you are in a cloaking raven for example, you can just sit 100km+ off a gate cloaked, and you will still lock the enemy long before he gets in range to hurt/scramble you.
I think the only people arguing against an increased cloak penalty for non-cloak-spec ships are those who don't want to lose their unkillable zero-risk ratting ravens. And no, the whole "but without cloak they'd just ss anyway" isn't a valid exuse because then I can at least probe that ship.
Any miner is capable of hearing a raven uncloak and warping off before the raven has time to do any real damage if they are vigilant. Local chat makes this quite easy. This is absoloutly not risk free for the raven as the miners m8s can also uncloak and take out the raven. This should be a straightfoward for anyone. Unless you think that a miner should be allowed to mine by itself in 0.0 risk free?
As for me i dont fly a Raven at all so i dont fit your criteria. I can quite happily hit a Raven as it decloaks 220KM away from me hard enough for it to panic and warp off.
You havent presented any information that would make me change my mind about cloaks although there is justifiable evidence to remove local chat.
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