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Solving the RMT problem, and stopping RMT solicitation: Solution

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Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 1 post(s)
Minerva Vulcan Caldari The Nexus Foundation	Posted - 2007.11.08 12:32:00 - [31] This needs to be implemented to protect your paying, and often long-time customers, from the constant daily harassment we're subjected to. Those who want to talk to and help out the newer players still will, while those that don't already, aren't subjected to the nonsense that is RTM spamming in every damn channel. _______________________________ I need new voices in my head. To speak my secret evils with. I need new lovers in my bed. To be my friends and special pets.
Kilostream Caldari Roving Guns Inc. RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2007.11.08 13:35:00 - [32] I'm down with this! Furthermore I'm not sure how much the block idea would damage genuine trial-accounters experience, because people genuinely trialling eve for the first time at this stage of Eve's life cycle have (in my experience) usually been introduced to the game by an existing customer, who is more than happy to provide advice and instruction to their friend, as well as bankrolling those first pricey skills and purchases to give them a leg up.
Colonel Sponsz	Posted - 2007.11.08 14:27:00 - [33] It's risk vs. reward. Don't like ISK seller spam? Get out of Empire!
Mik kyo Gr0und Zer0	Posted - 2007.11.08 14:29:00 - [34] AWSOME Perhaps the end of the "hai, liek wanna split your bounty" convos.
Minerva Vulcan Caldari The Nexus Foundation	Posted - 2007.11.08 14:37:00 - [35] Originally by: Colonel Sponsz It's risk vs. reward. Don't like ISK seller spam? Get out of Empire! It's also spammed in channels, such as Help, Trade, Blueprints... pretty much every useful public channel. It's not even about getting those annoying mails when you go to high sec. _______________________________ I need new voices in my head. To speak my secret evils with. I need new lovers in my bed. To be my friends and special pets.
Unvisibility	Posted - 2007.11.08 16:00:00 - [36] Originally by: Minerva Vulcan Originally by: Unvisibility Solution? Purchase of GTC's for ISK should ONLY happen directly between CCP and players. No real money should be involved, no third-parties, no trading between players. Either that or stop the entire practice and totally seperate ISK and real world money. You don't get it, do you? CCP has no need for ISK. The can spawn it out their arses in unlimited amounts. CCP would gain NOTHING from giving out free game time because you send them some ISK. Buying a GTC from a player for ISK means that that player bought a GTC from CCP (or from a retailer who purchased from CCP) therefor CCP has gained the subscription cost from the card. Just that cost is then traded off by the person who bought the code for ISK. It always makes me facepalm when I see someone say we should be able to give CCP ISK directly for game time. Congratulations for completely missing the point of what I said. Obviously CCP selling GTC's for ISK is a ridiculous idea and financial suicide for them. My point is that this is as ludicrous as expecting RMT to go away when it's directly encouraged by CCP in the form of the GTC for ISK trade. Until GTC's for ISK is disallowed any argument or attempt to get rid of ISK buying via other channels is doomed to failure.
Curzon Dax Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2007.11.08 17:07:00 - [37] Originally by: Minerva Vulcan Originally by: GM Nova I hate to rain on your parade. In essence I like your idea. More than that, I like your williness to find a solution. The problem with this idea is that by allowing players to automatically block trial players, these new players who are actually trying the game are in danger of missing out on one of the most important aspect of the game, the community. The social network which has eveolved is immensly valuable and it could be harmfull to allow new players to be blocked from it in any way. The thing is, that anyone who'd be willing to block trial accounts with their option, already aren't interested in either helping answer questions, or any of that. Implementing this suggestion wouldn't be any loss for the community. It would only help your paying customers. I need to emphasize this. This is the point I've been trying to make. EMPHASIZE AGAIN IN CAPS!!! Status Quo: If (S) is the number of subscriptions in Eve, and there are a number of players (X) in Eve who don't give a rat's bum about trial accounts, or helping people in the noob channel....then there are (S) - (X) players who ARE willing to help noob players. Lets call them Y. I'd bet my account, and everything in it that X > Y. In fact, I bet X > Y^2, or X > Y x10. And more. In the changes I'm proposing, the segment of the population (Y) does not decrease. As such, trial players are unaffected. However, the segment of the population X is significantly happier. Its win / win for everyone.
Curzon Dax Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2007.11.08 17:10:00 - [38] Originally by: Unvisibility Originally by: Minerva Vulcan Originally by: Unvisibility Solution? Purchase of GTC's for ISK should ONLY happen directly between CCP and players. No real money should be involved, no third-parties, no trading between players. Either that or stop the entire practice and totally seperate ISK and real world money. You don't get it, do you? CCP has no need for ISK. The can spawn it out their arses in unlimited amounts. CCP would gain NOTHING from giving out free game time because you send them some ISK. Buying a GTC from a player for ISK means that that player bought a GTC from CCP (or from a retailer who purchased from CCP) therefor CCP has gained the subscription cost from the card. Just that cost is then traded off by the person who bought the code for ISK. It always makes me facepalm when I see someone say we should be able to give CCP ISK directly for game time. Congratulations for completely missing the point of what I said. Obviously CCP selling GTC's for ISK is a ridiculous idea and financial suicide for them. My point is that this is as ludicrous as expecting RMT to go away when it's directly encouraged by CCP in the form of the GTC for ISK trade. Until GTC's for ISK is disallowed any argument or attempt to get rid of ISK buying via other channels is doomed to failure. Please do not derail my thread. This isn't about stopping RMT. My original post clearly stated that this wasn't about stopping RMT. Its about giving players the ability to push the problem to the background and play the game and have fun. Status quo: The social network in Eve has been invaded, harassed, spammed, unpleasantly degraded, destroyed. I'm requesting: Give us an option to pre-emptively ignore them. In regard to the "social network" part, I suppose I should probably say the same about Goonswarm and their COAD destruction but....one thing at a time.
Pwett Minmatar QUANT Corp. QUANT Hegemony	Posted - 2007.11.08 17:36:00 - [39] I don't understand how blocking a Noob corp would adversely affect the game in any reason. For RP reasons, if I'm RPing Gallente and I personally set SWA red, why can't I block them? Faction warfare people? _______________ Pwett CEO, Founder, & Executor <Q> QUANT Hegemony
Kenneth McCoy Vale Heavy Industries Molotov Coalition	Posted - 2007.11.08 17:48:00 - [40] There's not much more that I can add to Curzon's idea that hasn't already been covered. I'm taking a leap of faith and ASSUMING that CCP is willing and eager help staunch the spam of RMT in unavoidable situations. Nova's rebuttal, while theoretically sound, is truthfully kind of weak when I look at both sides of the idea at hand. I'd really like to see more official input, even if it IS justifying the reasons we can't have this implemented. It's been established that this option wouldn't hurt new player relations on a significant level, as someone just pointed out, a large chunk of 'new' players are referred by an already established customer, who is, like mentioned, more than willing to help out with the new player experience far more effectively than the tutorial or newplayerhelp channels will ever manage to do. In game experience is far, far more useful than scripted text and events. In short, /signed
Van'Klomp Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2007.11.08 18:08:00 - [41] Edited by: Van''Klomp on 08/11/2007 18:08:33 I agree and disagree with alot of the comments in this post, there are some good points and ideas that I believe CCP would be crazy to ignore. At the same time, I would not want to alienate the new players, I was new once and so was everybody else. Everybody seeks help in a different way and alot of players (believe it or not) ARE willing to help new players. However, blocking incoming private messages of any kind from trial accounts is a 100% no brainer to me, I can't see why this hasn't already been done. Whilst I agree that it is the fault of those willing to buy ISK that we have this problem, I do not believe it is an issue CCP should ignore. I work in development where I often look at the 'root cause' of issues, issues that turn out to be caused by user error, so it's the user's fault. This doesn't mean I can wash my hands of it, I still need to explore every possible solution, and then dismiss them or proceed with them based on the impacts and benefits. CCP, please consider the IMPACTS of inaction. Consider the BENEFITS of action. Something more proactive needs to be done. ----------------------
Forino Ovoli Multiverse Corporation	Posted - 2007.11.08 18:09:00 - [42] What is RMT? What does the acronym stand for?
Malcanis High4Life SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2007.11.08 21:00:00 - [43] Originally by: GM Nova Ave, Curzon Dax I hate to rain on your parade. In essence I like your idea. More than that, I like your williness to find a solution. The problem with this idea is that by allowing players to automatically block trial players, these new players who are actually trying the game are in danger of missing out on one of the most important aspect of the game, the community. The social network which has eveolved is immensly valuable and it could be harmfull to allow new players to be blocked from it in any way. The popup suggestion will be implemented in the form of MOTD or message of the day when you log in. We tried it some months ago and it had a good effect. Some players seem to be unaware that RMT is not allowed. The best solution is for players to stop buying ISK. That's it. No magic tricks. You can help us in this by encouraging your fellow players not to buy ISK. We are concerned about this and we take action whenever it is warranted, but lets face the facts here. The buyers are to blame for all the spam. As long as there is demand for ISK (for real money) there will be a supply of it. You are asking for some power to the player, but you do not seem to realize that you have power. Start a movement of honest players against RMT. Make players who buy ISK be ashamed of it. Have them feel that their achievements and victories turn to ashes in their mouths because they cheat. Um... but people who use this option aren't likely to spend much time helping newbies anyway are they? Do you think people should be forced to receive messages whether they want to or not? CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that.
Splagada Minmatar Tides of Silence Hydra Alliance	Posted - 2007.11.08 21:02:00 - [44] Edited by: Splagada on 08/11/2007 21:02:24 support this and add an option to autoreject apps on corps from trial acct players ------ Proud Janitor of Tides of Silence
Lyn Z Minmatar Ctrl Alt Elites	Posted - 2007.11.08 21:11:00 - [45] Originally by: GM Nova Ave, Curzon Dax I hate to rain on your parade. In essence I like your idea. More than that, I like your williness to find a solution. The problem with this idea is that by allowing players to automatically block trial players, these new players who are actually trying the game are in danger of missing out on one of the most important aspect of the game, the community. The social network which has eveolved is immensly valuable and it could be harmfull to allow new players to be blocked from it in any way. Nova, While I see your point, and it sounds good in theory, in practicality it's just not correct. The people who would choose this option, already don't hang around the Help channels, least of all Rookie Help, which they wouldn't have access to anyway. They're not interested in helping people in Local, or getting chatted up about how to fit guns to their ships or asked for "ISK for a noob." The new players would lose nothing by this being implemented, while your paying customers who are getting harassed daily in practically every known public channel, and by EVEmail when they enter populated or very high security systems, would have a tool that is both effective and non-disruptive to anyone else, to efficiently combat this scourge that is the RMT spammers. This needs to be implemented. Yes, needs.
Sali Ennt	Posted - 2007.11.08 21:36:00 - [46] GM Nova, While I can sympathize with your position, I think it is based on an incorrect premise. Have you considered the fact that your paying customers are being denied large chunks of the community by the immense amount of spam in the public channels? Wouldn't the experience of a new player be enhanced if your paying customers were willing to join the public channels again? As it stands now - the volume of ISK sales spam might very well convince a new player that RMT is acceptable in EVE. Further, I think asking people to stop buying ISK is akin to the American "Just Say No to drugs" program. While it might influence a few people, it is ultimately doomed to fail. Human nature can not be denied. People who want to buy ISK won't be deterred by a slogan. Only enforcement and punishment have any realistic chance of succeeding. Finally, how can I shame the buyers if I don't know who they are? It's not like CCP brands them in a way the entire player base can identify.
Curzon Dax Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2007.11.09 00:58:00 - [47] Hrm....well, I don't feel lonely in my analysis of GM Nova's thoughts at least. =p
Curzon Dax Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2007.11.09 14:14:00 - [48] Originally by: Forino Ovoli What is RMT? What does the acronym stand for? \ RMT = Real Money Transfer. People buy buy and sell ISK.
Minerva Vulcan Caldari The Nexus Foundation	Posted - 2007.11.09 21:28:00 - [49] Originally by: Curzon Dax Hrm....well, I don't feel lonely in my analysis of GM Nova's thoughts at least. =p Not at all. I think the fact that he suggests that we should be responsible for stopping the RMT with a player driven and ultimately ineffectual "Shame on You!" campaign instead of giving us a simple, non-harmful, insanely beneficial option for long-time customers on the flawed claim that it would somehow be detrimental to new players is laughable. It also irks me just a bit that such a good idea gets shot down without any real thought to it, and that he probably won't even bother to look back on this thread again. Nova, on the off-chance that you read this again, do you want your members exposed to the RMT? It seems like it. Yes, we can block a name, but you know as well as I that 15 minutes later the same person/bot/whatever is back at it through a constant abuse of the trial account system. People who want to cheat to try and get ahead know they are. They don't care. The only way that you can put this in the player's hands is if you start naming names on who's bought ISK, so that we can take the names and run with them. But you won't and often can't for understandable issues and policies. You need to take a real look at this suggestion from a realisitical standpoint, coming from your player base who know what they're being exposed to, not a flawed theoretical one in my opinion. _______________________________ I need new voices in my head. To speak my secret evils with. I need new lovers in my bed. To be my friends and special pets.
Curzon Dax Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2007.11.10 16:33:00 - [50] This thread needs moar attention.
Minerva Vulcan Caldari The Nexus Foundation	Posted - 2007.11.10 16:36:00 - [51] Originally by: Curzon Dax This thread needs moar attention. Indeed. I'd really like to see some more discussion with the devs in here about this. _______________________________ I need new voices in my head. To speak my secret evils with. I need new lovers in my bed. To be my friends and special pets.
Dzajic Gallente	Posted - 2007.11.10 19:00:00 - [52] Killing GTCs wont stop RMT in any way. A lot of other MMOs have no such legal option for RMT, but also have tons of farmers working for RMT purposes. Personally, GTC trades are only thing that got me to play EVE. Idea of giving 15$/month for years on a game is... unacceptable to me. GTCs are a nice alternative. Pay your first couple of months, after that basic mission of 0.0 runs will give you ISK for GTCs. With legal RMT CCP can control the amount of ISK-$$$ trade. 40$ for a old price of 90 day GTC price of 300mill ISK is much better than 50$ for billions of ISKs. Price of farmed ISK is driving GTC prices up, as otherwise they become pointless. If non GTC RMT is banned and eradicated, we can have GTCs ISK price dropping, making it more difficult to afford billions of ISK, and making EVE subscripting easier for RL monetary poor players.
Vimir Gilixite	Posted - 2007.11.10 20:05:00 - [53] Originally by: Dzajic Stuff Epic fail. Reading comprehension FTW. Go back, re-read Curzon's ORIGINAL post, very slowly. This is about a change to the basics of Eve communications, NOT RMT/GTC sales solutions. The spam of ISK farmers is the target here, not the farmers themselves. Yes, there is NO downside here. People who want to help the newbie out will leave their settings alone. People who don't want to help out will block them. This means that active recruiters in a corp will have to run the risk of being spammed by ISK sellers, but it's better one player is accessible than the whole corp dealing with junk communications. And as was mentioned earlier, this has HUGE factional warfare possibilities. Bottom line: this is an OPTIONAL setting in your player PREFERENCES. Let me repeat that for the slow: OPTIONAL PERSONAL PREFERENCES. How hard is that to understand? It's just another tool to use or not use, but the option of having it is better then not. Wnnt to talk to noobs? Fine. Don't turn it on. Speed 100% of your time in 0.0, and aren't the recruiter for your corp? Cool, set it and never deal with a 2 minute old player in Jita trying to circumvent the EULA. So, CCP, where's the downside again? Oh, and "/signed". Great idea Curzon.
Helen Hunts Gallente Red Dragon Mining inc	Posted - 2007.11.10 21:04:00 - [54] Normally, I'm unaffected by the spammers since I'm out a ways from the major hubs and starter systems. If I venture into some of the starter systems for some reason, I get some interesting messages in the mail, although rarely will I get convos. The spam I can do without. Most of the time, I don't want to be bothered with random newbs in game. (helping on forums is different) I have enough to do keeping the friends we've recruited into EVE from blowing themselves to pieces or trying to get the bounty on that pirate guy over there.... Yes, give me the option to block out the trial accounts that I haven't added to my address book. I've got enough to deal with [aside] Yes, he's flashy red, but he's also in a battleship and you're a single frigate. Leave. Him. Alone. [/aside] already _______________________________ Mine da rocks, make more ships. Pop da rats, make more rigs. Sell da gear, make more money. Any Questions?
daemorhedron	Posted - 2007.11.10 21:39:00 - [55] Curzon has hit the nail on the head here. We really could use a system like this, and as he said, it's clearly win/win for everyone. /signed
Curzon Dax Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2007.11.11 06:46:00 - [56] Hear hear. Give us options!
Minerva Vulcan Caldari The Nexus Foundation	Posted - 2007.11.12 12:02:00 - [57] This thread needs moar dev input. _______________________________ I need new voices in my head. To speak my secret evils with. I need new lovers in my bed. To be my friends and special pets.
Mister Xerox	Posted - 2007.11.12 12:40:00 - [58] /signed. There should be a function to allow specific trial account members (i.e. people you've seduced into the Hell that is Eve). You should have a r-click option on names in chat and gag them (not block), and 'spam'. The gag button functions exactly as you'd expect, it silences them in that channel until you ungag them, but does not add them to your block-everything-from-this-guy list. The SPAM button gags the speaker (to you), but it also gives the guy a score which, if it adds up rapidly enough, gets them a complete gag from all channels & requiring that a GM examine their situation to have the flag removed. I.e. the GM can look at their outbound text to see what they've been saying, and in which channels, but only for that individual. If the GM determines the gag was warranted they can let it remain (on a timer for hours/days/permanent by channel), or ban the person. If the spammer's 'SPAM' score goes up too rapidly and from too many different channels the account is immediately locked and the player kicked off the server (this would require the 'spam' input from hundreds of people on several channels at once within say... 30 mins or so. This would prevent an alliance from getting an enemy kick/locked easily. An alliance that does manage to do this, and if a GM finds it unwarranted... ohh boy, sh*t meet fan) Once you select 'spam' for a player the flag is already set... you can't do it more than once per day or some other time interval for that individual.
Selene D'Celeste Caldari The D'Celeste Estate	Posted - 2007.11.12 20:13:00 - [59] This thread really needs another response from GM Nova or another staff member, particularly to address the point of blocking trial accounts not actually affecting trials since those of us who block them don't communicate with them anyway. And anyone new to the game that I WOULD want to talk to on a trial, I already know and have other means of communication with. It would be trivial to also have an "allowed trials" along with your "block trials" checkbox, to get around this inconvenience as well.
Xaen Caldari Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2007.11.12 20:21:00 - [60] I have a better idea. And it won't take me eleventy billiont paragraphs: Bayesian filters on chat and EVE mail. -- Support fixing the EVE UI \| Suggest Jita fixes

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