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Solving the RMT problem, and stopping RMT solicitation: Solution

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Curzon Dax Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2007.11.13 08:56:00 - [61] Originally by: Xaen I have a better idea. And it won't take me eleventy billiont paragraphs: Bayesian filters on chat and EVE mail. There's a lot of ideas. A lot of them are good. The point of this thread really is that there are a LOT of ideas, and none of them are being implemented. I don't care about RMT. I don't care about farmers and ISK sellers and ISK buyers. If CCP WANTED me to care, they'd publish a pillory naming and shaming ISk buyers, and a continually updated list of banned players / how much ISK was removed from the economy, etc. Since they don't, I'll tow the party line and not care either. But for God's sake, I should at least be able to ignore the problem. 1/2 of all threads in GD are about ISK buyers / sellers / spammers / farmers for a reason. Because we can't ignore it. Its thrown in our face continually. For the love of all things holy, give me the tools to ignore the problem. It won't go away, but its good enough for me.
Razor Jaxx Minmatar Cosmic Odyssey	Posted - 2007.11.13 12:09:00 - [62] Originally by: GM Nova Ave, Curzon Dax ...Some players seem to be unaware that RMT is not allowed... ...The best solution is for players to stop buying ISK. That's it. No magic tricks. You can help us in this by encouraging your fellow players not to buy ISK... ...The buyers are to blame for all the spam. As long as there is demand for ISK (for real money) there will be a supply of it... Unbelievable. So you're telling us that it is demand that creates advertising, and not the other way around? So you're telling us that the best way to help trial players, and make them aware that "buying ISK is bad", is to let ISK sellers spam the very channels likely to be occupied by trial players with offers to buy ISK for real money? Curzon's demands are very reasonable. Considering how CCP blatantly ignores the ISK selling issues in spite of various efforts within the community, it is only fair that we be given the same ability to ignore the problem, at least until you find the resolve to actually address it. It is, after all, we who are paying you to solve issues, not the other way around. And if you really care so much about trial players, maybe you should be more concerned about shielding them from the constant spam. As for the underlying RMT issue (sorry Curzon, slight thread-jacking), if CCP is really serious about hurting the whole process, there are a few easy steps : - Instant ban, char biomass and public pillory for caught buyers, including corp and alliance affiliation. - Inability to operate missions (past the tutorial agent) while in NPC corporations (in short, make farmers possible war targets). - End the GTC for ISK sales ; yes, it's unfortunate for people who do not have access to RL funds to afford the game, but no-one should be able to procure ISK through out-of-game means, no exceptions made. I'd wager 90%+ of the farmer accounts are paid for through GTC for ISK transactions. There are more, but these would be a good start.
Curzon Dax Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2007.11.14 06:05:00 - [63] Well, we all sort of know the reputations of the GMs based on how they handle us in game. =p
Arandathalion Kraerre	Posted - 2007.11.14 23:19:00 - [64] Curzon, let me just say this: I am on a trial account, and I approve this message. This probably would have stopped me from canceling my old account, had it been implemented. And on this: Originally by: GM Nova Ave, Curzon Dax I hate to rain on your parade. In essence I like your idea. More than that, I like your williness to find a solution. The problem with this idea is that by allowing players to automatically block trial players, these new players who are actually trying the game are in danger of missing out on one of the most important aspect of the game, the community. The social network which has eveolved is immensly valuable and it could be harmfull to allow new players to be blocked from it in any way. The popup suggestion will be implemented in the form of MOTD or message of the day when you log in. We tried it some months ago and it had a good effect. Some players seem to be unaware that RMT is not allowed. The best solution is for players to stop buying ISK. That's it. No magic tricks. You can help us in this by encouraging your fellow players not to buy ISK. We are concerned about this and we take action whenever it is warranted, but lets face the facts here. The buyers are to blame for all the spam. As long as there is demand for ISK (for real money) there will be a supply of it. You are asking for some power to the player, but you do not seem to realize that you have power. Start a movement of honest players against RMT. Make players who buy ISK be ashamed of it. Have them feel that their achievements and victories turn to ashes in their mouths because they cheat. Sad, sad theoretical hoo-hah that is meant to circumvent the point. What saddens me is that this will most likely be the last we hear of the GMs or devs, at least here.
Curzon Dax Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2007.11.17 01:55:00 - [65] Arandathalion: I won't pretend that you can represent all players, but its good to hear from someone on a trial account instead of just CCP telling us that the idea would screw over trial players. =p Really, the idea DOESN'T hurt anyone except those who would spam us.
Devian 666 Igneus Auctorita GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.11.17 05:24:00 - [66] Edited by: Devian 666 on 17/11/2007 05:25:36 Originally by: GM Nova Ave, Curzon Dax I hate to rain on your parade. In essence I like your idea. More than that, I like your williness to find a solution. The problem with this idea is that by allowing players to automatically block trial players, these new players who are actually trying the game are in danger of missing out on one of the most important aspect of the game, the community. The social network which has eveolved is immensly valuable and it could be harmfull to allow new players to be blocked from it in any way. Actually trial account players will not be missing out on anything. The signal to noise ratio is around 1 to 1000. I believe I have had one trial player contact me with a genuine questions. The remainder is isk selling spam. For every spam I get I generate a petition. This is wasting my time and distracts me from playing the game that I am paying for. All new player on trial accounts have access to npc corp chat and help channel chat. Having the option to block them will not result in trial players being unable to communicate with the community as they already have the two most critical channels available to them. Anyone using those channels can uncheck the trial account blocking option. So your statement is factually incorrect and endorses isk selling spam to the community. To state that it will harm new players is disrespectful to the playerbase. Overnerfing creates unbalanced ship builds. Stop overnerfing!
Synseer Minmatar Deadly Addiction	Posted - 2007.11.17 06:18:00 - [67] THis is an awesome idea but it could be even better... I traveled through some l4 mission systems and was just shocked and awed by the number of farmer alts with names like "adffasd" and "opirutioe" farming missions in ravens, all in State War Academy or in Perkone. To get rid of these farmers in one fell swoop would be simply to allow players to wardec them. But what about the true newbs? Simple. After say a month or 2 months, all starter NPC corps kick players into a NPC corporation that player corps are able to wardec.
Devian 666 Igneus Auctorita GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.11.17 06:45:00 - [68] Originally by: Synseer THis is an awesome idea but it could be even better... I traveled through some l4 mission systems and was just shocked and awed by the number of farmer alts with names like "adffasd" and "opirutioe" farming missions in ravens, all in State War Academy or in Perkone. To get rid of these farmers in one fell swoop would be simply to allow players to wardec them. But what about the true newbs? Simple. After say a month or 2 months, all starter NPC corps kick players into a NPC corporation that player corps are able to wardec. The only issue with that is a lot of new players are scared and intimidated by the CCP warning messages and war dec mechanics. While all of this stuff is understood by experienced players it's rather confusing for new players. By the majority of players blocking out trial accounts the isk sellers would have to subscribe and once they get banned it'll be costing them around 200m isk in gtc for every seller they lose. This also creates an audit trail for the GMs that investigate isk sellers, unless they use stolen credit card details which in that case can be turned over to the authories (assuming they live in a country that cares). Overnerfing creates unbalanced ship builds. Stop overnerfing!
Horseface McHorse	Posted - 2007.11.17 07:26:00 - [69] It's this kind of absolute crap that makes me think twice about coming back to EVE (and bringing potentially subscribing friends) when Trinity rolls around. Your act, please get it together CCP (at least try... or make it look like you're trying...) I'm not agreeing or disagreeing with the specific solution pointed out by Curzon, but A solution is well overdue.
MorbidPenguin Hard Corp Brotherhood Of Steel	Posted - 2007.11.17 07:27:00 - [70] I shall sign this. I fully expect CCP to have it implemented by next week. Great idea, Curzon.

Curzon Dax Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2007.11.19 04:39:00 - [71] Originally by: Synseer THis is an awesome idea but it could be even better... I traveled through some l4 mission systems and was just shocked and awed by the number of farmer alts with names like "adffasd" and "opirutioe" farming missions in ravens, all in State War Academy or in Perkone. To get rid of these farmers in one fell swoop would be simply to allow players to wardec them. But what about the true newbs? Simple. After say a month or 2 months, all starter NPC corps kick players into a NPC corporation that player corps are able to wardec. Lets not turn this into a thread about "Can we make everyone in Eve who isn't a complete noob griefable?"
Komen Gallente Aliastra	Posted - 2007.11.19 05:23:00 - [72] I am going to repost here, what I posted in another topic on much the same subject. Set your CSPA charge for people not in your address-book to the maximum allowed - 100,000 isk per mail/convo. Since doing so well over 8 months ago, I have not seen one single RMT spam. And before I set that fee, I was spammed two or three times and petitioned each and every one. Furthermore, as far as shaming isk buyers goes, a person willing to spend real currency for virtual currency is not, I feel, going to be particularly bothered by those of us who are bothered by THEM. Shame requires an acknowledgement of wrongdoing on the part of the person doing the wrong. I suspect ISK buyers don't see anything wrong with it...to their minds, they are giving up a very real benefit (cash) in trade for a service (in this case, currency in a game). To their minds, I suspect they feel that because they've paid money, they DESERVE to have their advantage. That's why I believe the shame game won't work. On the other hand, I too want a regularly updated list of RMT bans, mostly so I can just laugh at them. ___________________________________ Wielder of the Trout of Doom(tm)! ___________________________________ Redo the Domi hull for Trinity 2. Scrap the upside down shoe! Do it!
Snake Doctor MacroIntel United Corporations Against Macros	Posted - 2007.11.19 05:28:00 - [73] :( not that im not willing to help anymore, but its too hard to read all of these threads, let alone 3 pages of one I've managed to miss. Can someone sum this up for me? Is there anything MacroIntel can do? We do have our own forums set up, you know.... Call me lazy if you must. I just can't keep up with it all. See the recruitment post if you think you can help. We need it. Join Macrointel!
Devian 666 Igneus Auctorita GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.11.19 05:42:00 - [74] Originally by: Snake Doctor :( not that im not willing to help anymore, but its too hard to read all of these threads, let alone 3 pages of one I've managed to miss. Can someone sum this up for me? Is there anything MacroIntel can do? We do have our own forums set up, you know.... Call me lazy if you must. I just can't keep up with it all. See the recruitment post if you think you can help. We need it. Unfortunately it's mostly mechanics under the hood. However, educating people about configuring CSPA charges would help. I usually put it on allow all because "unfortunately" I end up working with a lot of people in many alliances. There was one occassion where I was contacted by evemail where I'd seen the offending pilot at the gate in a hauler. Needless to say one petition later that pilot would have been banned. We almost won. [ 2007.11.17 08:26:19 ] (combat) <color=0xffbbbb00>Your 150mm Railgun II places an excellent hit on Shrike [EVOL]<BOB>(Avatar), inflicting 41.4 damage.
Curzon Dax Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2007.11.19 06:53:00 - [75] Setting your CSPA charge to 100k isn't an optimal solution. Personally, I get a LOT of mail, convos, and such from strangers for various business ventures, and I don't want to cut into peoples' wallet for something I don't need to. And besides, the ability to block trial accounts goes much further than EVEmail - it would apply to trade and public channels, which are the hardest hit. Setting your CSPA charge to anything doesn't fix that, unless you don't engage in Eve's social aspects on a community level.
Glengrant Minmatar TOHA Heavy Industries Brutally Clever Empire	Posted - 2007.11.19 09:52:00 - [76] I agree with GM Nova (and almost everybody else I guess) that Isk buyers are the root of the problem (same as with 90% of all email nowwdays ebing spam for which we have to thank the idiots who buy that V. product that way). I agree with almost everybody else here that we (as players) can't do much about that as Isk buyers don't put that into their Bios. There is the occasional case were a corp mate might mention it beforehand and we could discourage that - but that's the limit. I don't get much spam (never go to Jita :-) ) and don't use the big purblic channels much. But I'd like to see the proposals implemented. As has been pointed out those to activate these flags are those least likey to talk to trials anyway - and not everybody will switch it on. Trial players will still have lots of players who won't activate the filter, the many other people in their npc corps and the forum for community access. And that's just for those who are not introduced into the game by buddies. /signed p.s. For good measure: SHAME ON ISK BUYERS - YOU ARE LAME!!! ISK BUYER = LOOSER
Curzon Dax Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2007.11.21 19:33:00 - [77] I'm bumping for posterity.
Irongut M'8'S Frontal Impact	Posted - 2007.11.21 20:21:00 - [78] What's RMT? I can tell from scanning your post that you're talking about isk sellers and their spam but I've never heard that acronym before and still have no idea what it stands for. Perhaps if I knew the first paragraph might make more sense and I might be more inclined to read your post properly. Join M8S Racing Team sponsored by Frontier Technologies!
Paddlefoot Aeon Neogen Industries Daisho Syndicate	Posted - 2007.11.21 20:22:00 - [79] Originally by: Irongut What's RMT? I can tell from scanning your post that you're talking about isk sellers and their spam but I've never heard that acronym before and still have no idea what it stands for. Perhaps if I knew the first paragraph might make more sense and I might be more inclined to read your post properly. RMT = Real Money Trading EVE uses ISK, WOW uses gold, Final Fantasy 11 Online uses Gil.... RMT covers all cases of trading in-game currency for real world money. Now Recruiting. Click sig for details!
Ulstan	Posted - 2007.11.21 20:41:00 - [80] I support this thread.

Killian Long	Posted - 2007.11.22 15:45:00 - [81] Originally by: Unvisibility Originally by: Curzon Dax You've got to look at this from CCP's point of view too though - the new player experience in EVE is already terrible. EVE is extremely harsh, has a very steep learning curve and, let's be honest here, sucks as a new player for a million reasons. Anything that makes that experience worse is going to simply stop the influx of new players. EVE's subscriber base has consistently grown over the last 4 years, but very, VERY, VERY slowly. This means there's a delicate balance between the rate of attrition (old players leaving after one nerf too many) and new growth. Mess with that and EVE will start to shrink, which would be bad. LOL - speaking as a new player who just upgraded from the trial .... I found the Tutorial FUN & EASY I did tend to stick to the Rookie & Local Channels and, I don't recall actually needing to contact any other player that wasn't "in system" or on the Rookie Channel during that period. I also saw no need to send mails to anyone (I guess that's my anti-social nature ) So, in short - I Agree with the OP - Allow players to CHOOSE who they want to communicate with / block groups they have no intention of communicating with. Possible modication: Allow players "blocked" via a "group block" to communicate on a individual basis (i.e. an active decision to selectivle add players to a "buddy" list)
Minerva Vulcan Caldari The Nexus Foundation	Posted - 2007.11.22 16:16:00 - [82] This thread needs more love and implementation. _______________________________ I need new voices in my head, To speak my secret evils with. I need new lovers in my bed, To be my friends and special pets.


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