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Solving the RMT problem, and stopping RMT solicitation: Solution

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Curzon Dax Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2007.11.07 21:06:00 - [1] I understand that CCP is unwilling to put restrictions on trial players for fear of disrupting the new player experience - fair enough. Given the plethora of threads throughout the forums pointing to various unsavory stances that CCP seem to have adopted, in addition to the fact that RMT advocates are practically lining themselves (and their accounts) up for identification by the boatload in Character and Timecode Bazaar, (and other things) I'm going to presume that what CCP is willing to do about the sellers is already being done (or not done) and leave that issue for somewhere else. The advertisement and EVEmail / local / every channel spam is a completely separate category, and is deserving of a solution, which I propose below. -------------------------------------------------------------- A current feature of communication in Eve is for players to set an option to disallow all conversation requests (Auto-reject), and to block entities from sending you EVEmail - that option currently extends to blocking individuals, corps, and alliances. However, this feature does NOT extend to NPC entities. State War Academy, Republic Military School, and all other NPC entities are not blockable. Since 100% of ISK spammers are on trial accounts, and in NPC starter corps, and since 99.9% of ISK farmers and RMT advocates are in NPC corps, fix it! 1. Edit the appropriate database and add NPC entities to searchable organizations. IE, when I search for a corporation, I should be able to search for "State War Academy." It is a corporation, and it doesn't make much sense that the current database tells me that it doesn't exist when it does. -------------------------------------------------------------- Trial accounts and advertisement spammers: Trial accounts have a series of flags built into them that prevent them from engaging in certain activities. Training certain ships for example. Tie one of these flags into the blocked list, and let players treat this as the sandbox its supposed to be. From a role-playing perspective, I get to damn well choose who I want to talk to. If I don't want to talk to someone, I can block them. If they keep creating alts to bother me, I can petition them for harassment. The RMT spammers can't be dealt with via petitions unless CCP were to institute draconian measures of IP / PCID / MAC blocking. Since CCP isn't adequately prepared to cut this flow off, let players deal with it. Tie a flag identifying a character to a trial account into a new option that players can check. [X] Auto-ignore communication from trial accounts. This option fills CCP's need to not lay restrictions on trial members. The restrictions would be personally implemented by the player base. And when a trial account sends a mail to someone with this option checked, they would get the message "This player has auto-reject turned on." That way, we remain a sandbox, trial account players don't get nerfed, and there is no more solicitation from trial accounts to paying customers for unwanted services. In one fell swoop, the burden is put on players to regulate their own communication. CCP, there is not a SINGLE instance in the entire universe where I wish to have any dealings with anyone on a trial account. The friends I bring into Eve (which have been plenty) have ample means of communicating with me, and I could add them to an allowed list. But for the rest of trial accounts in the universe...I don't want to hear from any of them, legitimate players or RMT abusers alike. Why don't you let me decide who I want to talk to? To be effective, this needs to apply to all means of communication, just like a block. In channels, EVEmail, and all in-game functions that "block" serves, this needs to do the same. For the ISK buyers: Once a week, everyone get a popup system message: "Dear players: Please remember that buying ISK is illegal, and will subject your account to being permanently banned. Don't do it." I bet ISK sales would drop 50%.
SexxxSlave	Posted - 2007.11.07 21:09:00 - [2] first.
Lysander Drakos Evolution	Posted - 2007.11.07 21:12:00 - [3] SOB! 2nd, in epic isk farming radification thread.
Minerva Vulcan Caldari The Nexus Foundation	Posted - 2007.11.07 21:15:00 - [4] I like it.
Tarminic Forsaken Resistance	Posted - 2007.11.07 21:16:00 - [5] Sounds reasonable as long as those on trial accounts are notified that their eve-mails are being blocked, or if blocked eve-mails go into a specific folder. ---------------- Tarminic - 29 Million SP in pink Forum Warfare
Curzon Dax Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2007.11.07 21:23:00 - [6] Discussing this thread in game with a bunch of people in another channel...and I'm guessing this is going to come up sooner or later: This is NOT about restricting trial accounts' ability to communicate with other people. Its about letting paying customers filter who talks to them. If a noob convoes me with "Hey, what's the difference between missiles and guns?" I'm going to respond with, "....I'm not your mentor. Go to ships and modules forums to post that question, or go to help chat or rookie chat." There are channels already in existence for people to get legitimate questions asked and answered. And those two channels can have an easy exception to the blocked rule: Help and Rookie chat EXIST for new players to get answers to questions. --------------- Notification: If I block someone, they don't get a notice in local / trade / other channel. I just don't see what they write. This is perfectly acceptable. The only time that they know they're being blocked is if they try to EVEmail or convo me. Which is also perfectly alright. Let trial accounts have the same feature - if a trial account tries to convo me, they get "This person is not accepting communications from you." Same thing if they try to EVEmail me. I'm just saying...I'm supposed to be roleplaying an aristocratic, stuck-up, better-than-you pod-pilot. I do the best I can at it. But there's a couple tools I need to more effectively do it. CCP, please give me the tools I need to regulate my own communications.
Fenderson Finite Horizon Synchr0nicity	Posted - 2007.11.07 21:38:00 - [7] i support this idea Originally by: CCP Wrangler Oh dear, how about we all calm down a bit instead?
Smantha Dering Caldari Black Watch Legionnaires	Posted - 2007.11.07 23:03:00 - [8] I agree 100%. Changing my eve mail fee to 1m isk used to work, but not anymore. I get solicitations nearly once a week on my main, and all the time on my alts.
Ryuu Katsu	Posted - 2007.11.07 23:56:00 - [9] /signed

GM Nova Game Masters	Posted - 2007.11.08 00:36:00 - [10] Ave, Curzon Dax I hate to rain on your parade. In essence I like your idea. More than that, I like your williness to find a solution. The problem with this idea is that by allowing players to automatically block trial players, these new players who are actually trying the game are in danger of missing out on one of the most important aspect of the game, the community. The social network which has eveolved is immensly valuable and it could be harmfull to allow new players to be blocked from it in any way. The popup suggestion will be implemented in the form of MOTD or message of the day when you log in. We tried it some months ago and it had a good effect. Some players seem to be unaware that RMT is not allowed. The best solution is for players to stop buying ISK. That's it. No magic tricks. You can help us in this by encouraging your fellow players not to buy ISK. We are concerned about this and we take action whenever it is warranted, but lets face the facts here. The buyers are to blame for all the spam. As long as there is demand for ISK (for real money) there will be a supply of it. You are asking for some power to the player, but you do not seem to realize that you have power. Start a movement of honest players against RMT. Make players who buy ISK be ashamed of it. Have them feel that their achievements and victories turn to ashes in their mouths because they cheat.

Slickdrac Minmatar Replicatorz	Posted - 2007.11.08 00:38:00 - [11] I don't get it, how do you guys get so much spam? My mail is completely open, and I've got no problem with evemails or convos. I have 5 accts and 12 chars, and I've gotten maybe 5 isk spam mails. Please no comments about my lifestyle, I'm a geek to the bone
Slickdrac Minmatar Replicatorz	Posted - 2007.11.08 00:49:00 - [12] Originally by: GM Nova Make players who buy ISK be ashamed of it. Have them feel that their achievements and victories turn to ashes in their mouths because they cheat. Great idea, in theory. In action however, this doesn't work. People don't go around just blabbing that they bought isk, except that one guy that I saw once, I think he got banned like 10 minutes later However, indirect attacks on isk buyers would likely be more effective if you just insulted people who bought isk. Spending real life money on A GAME. Because, of course, the basic needs in life are food, shelter, water, and video games, and if you are a person of great importance in A GAME, then that makes life perfect you as you log off your computer at the library and go "home" to your cardboard box because you can't afford a house because you spent your last 3 paychecks getting more isk. IDK, to me that sounds better then saying, "ha ha, you have to cheat to win a battle." Maybe that's just me tho
voogru Gallente Massive Damage	Posted - 2007.11.08 01:44:00 - [13] Been suggested. Probably wont happen. I'm dangerous! Watch out!
Rooker Lysian Enterprises	Posted - 2007.11.08 01:45:00 - [14] Edited by: Rooker on 08/11/2007 01:45:28 ... Forum ate my post -- Let Us Avoid Systems Via Autopilot
Rooker Lysian Enterprises	Posted - 2007.11.08 01:45:00 - [15] Originally by: GM Nova The problem with this idea is that by allowing players to automatically block trial players, these new players who are actually trying the game are in danger of missing out on one of the most important aspect of the game, the community. The social network which has eveolved is immensly valuable and it could be harmfull to allow new players to be blocked from it in any way. I bet I speak for several thousand paying customers when I say "I DON'T FRIGGIN CARE". My block list is so large that it lags my client for 30-60 seconds when I open it. The amount of spamming in public channels is outrageous and people are tired of looking at it. It is coming exclusively from trial accounts that will never turn into paid accounts and we don't want to see it. If they want to talk to me, they can subscribe the same as me. On a side note, I do not at all appreciate hearing that you consider the wishes of someone using an unpaid account to be more important than that of.... what is it, now.. 200,000? 300,000? paid accounts? I believe you need to rethink your priorities there. Quote: We are concerned about this and we take action whenever it is warranted, but lets face the facts here. The buyers are to blame for all the spam. As long as there is demand for ISK (for real money) there will be a supply of it. You are asking for some power to the player, but you do not seem to realize that you have power. Start a movement of honest players against RMT. Make players who buy ISK be ashamed of it. Have them feel that their achievements and victories turn to ashes in their mouths because they cheat. Then let us identify them. Every time someone gripes about isk spammers or isk farmers, one of you comes back with this "the problem is the buyer" line. People gripe about the farmers and spammers because they are EASILY identified. What we can't identify are the buyers. Nothing we can do about them because we have no way of knowing who they are, unless they admit to it. Change the license so that someone caught buying isk outside the license is flagged and let us all see that flag. I guarantee you the number of isk buyers would drop very dramatically. -- Let Us Avoid Systems Via Autopilot
voogru Gallente Massive Damage	Posted - 2007.11.08 01:57:00 - [16] Edited by: voogru on 08/11/2007 02:01:57 Hi GM Nova. Originally by: GM Nova Ave, Curzon Dax I hate to rain on your parade. In essence I like your idea. More than that, I like your williness to find a solution. The problem with this idea is that by allowing players to automatically block trial players, these new players who are actually trying the game are in danger of missing out on one of the most important aspect of the game, the community. The social network which has eveolved is immensly valuable and it could be harmfull to allow new players to be blocked from it in any way. I agree with this. Originally by: GM Nova The popup suggestion will be implemented in the form of MOTD or message of the day when you log in. We tried it some months ago and it had a good effect. Some players seem to be unaware that RMT is not allowed. I agree with this. Originally by: GM Nova The best solution is for players to stop buying ISK. That's it. No magic tricks. You can help us in this by encouraging your fellow players not to buy ISK. I agree with this. Originally by: GM Nova We are concerned about this and we take action whenever it is warranted, but lets face the facts here. The buyers are to blame for all the spam. As long as there is demand for ISK (for real money) there will be a supply of it. You are asking for some power to the player, but you do not seem to realize that you have power. Start a movement of honest players against RMT. Make players who buy ISK be ashamed of it. Have them feel that their achievements and victories turn to ashes in their mouths because they cheat. Ah ha, now here is a problem. I have caught players buying ISK in the act of doing it. Several players. 1. They all denied it. 2. They all sent hate mail a few days after I petitioned them. 3. They all said they were going to find out who I am and grief me out of EVE, luckily, I used newbie alts when I prodded them. Alts ftw. 4. A few of them threatened to petition me if I didn't do a certian something for them. The 'buyers' do not care, that they are cheating. They are not ashamed, and WILL NOT be ashamed. You want to stop buying of ISK? It's easy. You get caught, you get banned. End of story. And for good measure, a public list of players who have been banned for buying ISK. Updated as they get banned on a daily basis, tell us who bought ISK, and how much they bought. No second chances. Every player I caught buying ISK, did not get banned. Even one that I caught that bought over TEN BILLION ISK. Don't bother questioning me on how I know all this, because I just do and I can back everything up should you ever get in a real conversation with me. I'm dangerous! Watch out!
Jake Silence	Posted - 2007.11.08 02:43:00 - [17] Originally by: GM Nova Ave, Curzon Dax I hate to rain on your parade. In essence I like your idea. More than that, I like your williness to find a solution. The problem with this idea is that by allowing players to automatically block trial players, these new players who are actually trying the game are in danger of missing out on one of the most important aspect of the game, the community. The social network which has eveolved is immensly valuable and it could be harmfull to allow new players to be blocked from it in any way. 1) My take on this is that Curzon is asking for a way for people who are paying CCP money to play their game to not be subjected to annoying spam from people who are not paying money to CCP to play their game. That trial accounts could potentially end up paying CCP to play their game is nice, but it isn't a good enough reason to subject paying subscribers to RMT harrassment. Help channels exist to be used, and since I took advantage of the Power of Two promotion, I find myself spending more time on my new character answering questions in Rookie Help than actually doing anything productive, which leads to ... The popup suggestion will be implemented in the form of MOTD or message of the day when you log in. We tried it some months ago and it had a good effect. Some players seem to be unaware that RMT is not allowed. 2) When I log into my new account and enter into Rookie Help, the MOTD is already scrolling off the chat window so fast that it hardly seems to be doing any good to actual rookies, since one of the questions answered there (regarding Upgrade Hardpoints) is asked over and over (and over...and over) by new players, so getting them to understand that RMT are against the rules of the game by placing the message in the MOTD seems to me to be a marginal solution, at best. The best solution is for players to stop buying ISK. That's it. No magic tricks. You can help us in this by encouraging your fellow players not to buy ISK. We are concerned about this and we take action whenever it is warranted, but lets face the facts here. The buyers are to blame for all the spam. As long as there is demand for ISK (for real money) there will be a supply of it. 3) Yes, the buyers are to blame for the demand, but I, as a non-ISK buyer, am not to blame for the supplier's attempts to sell me ISK in a harrassing manner, so I shouldn't be punished for it. You are asking for some power to the player, but you do not seem to realize that you have power. Start a movement of honest players against RMT. Make players who buy ISK be ashamed of it. Have them feel that their achievements and victories turn to ashes in their mouths because they cheat. 4) Me trying to hurt someone's E-Feelings isn't a solution to the problem. So far, CCP's attempts to solve the problem of RMT harrassment aren't bearing fruit, so it's time to allow the paying customers the choice to decide for themselves whether or not to allow trial accounts to contact them. I am on a "do not call" list in the real world to prevent telemarketer harrassment, I would like a similar tool in Eve. P.S. I suck at quoting
Curzon Dax Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2007.11.08 03:02:00 - [18] Originally by: GM Nova Ave, Curzon Dax I hate to rain on your parade. In essence I like your idea. More than that, I like your williness to find a solution. The problem with this idea is that by allowing players to automatically block trial players, these new players who are actually trying the game are in danger of missing out on one of the most important aspect of the game, the community. The social network which has eveolved is immensly valuable and it could be harmfull to allow new players to be blocked from it in any way. The popup suggestion will be implemented in the form of MOTD or message of the day when you log in. We tried it some months ago and it had a good effect. Some players seem to be unaware that RMT is not allowed. The best solution is for players to stop buying ISK. That's it. No magic tricks. You can help us in this by encouraging your fellow players not to buy ISK. We are concerned about this and we take action whenever it is warranted, but lets face the facts here. The buyers are to blame for all the spam. As long as there is demand for ISK (for real money) there will be a supply of it. You are asking for some power to the player, but you do not seem to realize that you have power. Start a movement of honest players against RMT. Make players who buy ISK be ashamed of it. Have them feel that their achievements and victories turn to ashes in their mouths because they cheat. GM Nova: 1. Allowing players to auto-block trial players doesn't hurt trial players. Personally, I don't communicate with them. I have nothing for them. Nothing against them personally, but their channels for getting help exist, and I choose not to take part in it. There are a myraid of players just like me, who are being forced to be spammed left, right, and center because we aren't allowed to block a selection of players, 100% of which the abusing RMT people fall into. The people who want to communicate with trial players already do. They likely won't change anything. What you'd be doing is allowing those of who us DON'T want to talk to them to actually be able to be left alone. 2. We don't have power against RMT. We can't make people who buy ISK ashamed to buy ISK unless you and CCP publish a pillory. A stickied post in general discussion listing the names of people who bought ISK, how much they bought, and what was done about it. You can't suggest that we shame players if you don't give us the ability to do it - we can't go around accusing people of being ISK buyers - that's libel. 3. I understand that buyers are the problem. I can't make people stop buying ISK. You can only encourage people not to buy ISK and inform them of the consequences if they are caught. That's why I've made the suggestion that I have. ISK buying and selling is a constant - it won't go away, it exists in every MMO, and there's not much players can do about it. The best interim solution to this unfixable problem is to give us the means of ignoring it. Its great to theorize that there might exist trial players out there who would be negatively influenced by not being able to communicate with someone who didn't want to talk to them anyway...which is what I'm proposing. But there are some facts. -There may be a theoretical player or 3 who get miffed that someone is ignoring them. However, every trial player will still have the ability to fully communicate in every channel, with anyone in game. Some of them just won't listen. Its already that way. -There are thousands and thousands and TENS OF THOUSANDS of players who DON'T want to be spammed by trial favors. It doesn't make sense to make policy to prevent the possibility of offending a couple of people when those actions offend the majority of your customer base.
Kazuma Saruwatari	Posted - 2007.11.08 03:58:00 - [19] Star Wars Galaxies in it's current form has very crippling chat and mail blocks already in place that not only make the "credit seller" business via trial use impossible, but also impossible for newbies to get into SWG. Not that they'd have much to lose from it, but as GM Nova said, putting too much blocking on trialers just pushes the legitimate newbies too far away. - Odd Pod Out, a blog of EVE Online
Helen Hunts Gallente Red Dragon Mining inc	Posted - 2007.11.08 04:28:00 - [20] Okay, if we're not going to be able to auto-block trial accounts we haven't put in out address books, then how about a spam button? Quick, easy petition, no copy/paste, just SPAM! and gone. _______________________________ Mine da rocks, make more ships. Pop da rats, make more rigs. Sell da gear, make more money. Any Questions?
Dr Paithos Minmatar Republic Deep Space Institute	Posted - 2007.11.08 04:41:00 - [21] Edited by: Dr Paithos on 08/11/2007 04:41:50 Originally by: GM Nova Make players who buy ISK be ashamed of it. Have them feel that their achievements and victories turn to ashes in their mouths because they cheat. Asking people to show they're against RMT won't work. It's like asking people to show they're against... well, I won't go into specifics here, but horrible RL crimes. Of course just about everyone is against it. Asking people to campaign against it by waving placards or spamming signatures is like asking them to say "Eating Babies - I'm against it". The only real reaction is going to be "lol". People who RMT are not going to have their minds changed by a campaign - they already know the vast majority of people think it's wrong, and they don't care. The horrible truth is that people just suck and do far worse than pay RL cash for pretend Eve money. The numbers doing RMT are only going to be reduced by: 1) Raising awareness that it is not allowed and the arguments why that is 2) Increasing the (percieved) number of people who get caught, especially as a % of buyers 3) Increasing the awareness of the harshness of the penalties 4) Taking away the need for it somehow (i.e. GTCs). Furthermore, it's arguably offensive to ask the entire player base to demonstrate that they are against RMT. There's all sorts of icky RL comparisons here too that we won't get into. "You're a player, urgh, your kind must be for it unless they demonstrate clearly and constantly that they aren't!" That's... not a great road for dev/player relations to go down. We hate RMTers too, even us *****s who post with alts. Originally by:** RedFall How dare you try to argue my point with your so called "evidence". I don't need any, I have truthiness on my side.
Curzon Dax Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2007.11.08 07:23:00 - [22] Gah...I really feel like GM Nova missed my point. :( If trial players on my my blocked list, the status quo is maintained, with one difference: I get less communication traffic that I don't want. Its win/win. Trial players are always going to be chatting with the people who intend to chat with them, who wouldn't utilize the feature anyway - simply because its in their heart to talk with / help / whatever the trial players. At the VERY least, add the NPC entities to the database, so that players can go through and add them to their blocked list should the so choose. State War Academy, Republic Military School, etc. They ARE corporations. Why can't we search for them? Why are they exempt from being blocked as entities?
Unvisibility	Posted - 2007.11.08 07:33:00 - [23] Originally by: voogru Every player I caught buying ISK, did not get banned. Even one that I caught that bought over TEN BILLION ISK. Voogru I agree with everything you say, and I applaud your determined stance against RMT. However I feel that the REAL problem in EVE regarding RMT is that the entire concept is legitimised by the GTC trade. Let me illustrate with a joke: A man gets on to a train and sits down opposite a beautiful woman. After a while he says to her "excuse me madame, but I find you incredibly attractive, would you do me the honour of sleeping with me for ú100?". The woman is horrified and declines his offer. The man says "Madame, ú1000 and I will take you to a hotel in Paris for the night". The woman declines again. The man then says "very well, ú10000 and I will hire the finest suite in the finest hotel in Paris and have you waited on hand and foot, we shall dine on the finest gourmet foods and fine wines that Paris can offer, if you will only sleep with me one time." The woman considers the offer and after some thought finally accepts, at which point the man says "Excellent! So, how about right here, right now, for ú10?". The woman, horrified again, says "How dare you! What kind of a woman do you think I am?", to which the man replies.. "Madame, we've already established that, now we're just haggling over time and place." CCP legitimise the concept of purchasing ISK for real money by allowing the trade of GTC's between players, for ISK. Thus many of those who would buy their way ahead in EVE can simply extend that justification to "haggling over price" and purchase from ISK-sellers instead. RMT in EVE is the monster that CCP themselves have created. Solution? Purchase of GTC's for ISK should ONLY happen directly between CCP and players. No real money should be involved, no third-parties, no trading between players. Either that or stop the entire practice and totally seperate ISK and real world money.
Curzon Dax Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2007.11.08 07:53:00 - [24] Originally by: Unvisibility Edit: Oh and Curzon, your ideas simply won't work. Stop trial accounts from communicating with people (which is what your idea is, plain and simple) and the ISK sellers will upgrade trial accounts with paid ones. MMORPGs without trial systems still suffer from the RMT plague. The cost of accounts is insignificant compared to the profits they make. Allow blocking of NPC corps and the ISK sellers will just make their own corps. They will ALWAYS find a way round pretty much ANY restrictions imposed. The thing is...any of those things are GOOD. -If they have to upgrade trial accounts to paid accounts in order to spam EVEmails out - they will get banned just as fast, but won't be free accounts anymore. -If they have paying accounts, and leave NPC corps to go to player corps...they'll get wardecced and hunted. I'm betting that RMT advocates create dozens, if not hundreds of accounts every day to spam. If those dozens and hundreds of accounts were paying accounts...CCP gets SUPER rich getting paid to ban players. That's win/win for everyone. :)
Unvisibility	Posted - 2007.11.08 10:20:00 - [25] Originally by: Curzon Dax The thing is...any of those things are GOOD. -If they have to upgrade trial accounts to paid accounts in order to spam EVEmails out - they will get banned just as fast, but won't be free accounts anymore. -If they have paying accounts, and leave NPC corps to go to player corps...they'll get wardecced and hunted. I'm betting that RMT advocates create dozens, if not hundreds of accounts every day to spam. If those dozens and hundreds of accounts were paying accounts...CCP gets SUPER rich getting paid to ban players. That's win/win for everyone. :) Hehe well that's one way of looking at it ;) Ofc it doesn't actually stop the spam, the RMT, the cheating or the constant flow of threads on the forum from whiners having had their bought ISK taken away :p You've got to look at this from CCP's point of view too though - the new player experience in EVE is already terrible. EVE is extremely harsh, has a very steep learning curve and, let's be honest here, sucks as a new player for a million reasons. Anything that makes that experience worse is going to simply stop the influx of new players. EVE's subscriber base has consistently grown over the last 4 years, but very, VERY, VERY slowly. This means there's a delicate balance between the rate of attrition (old players leaving after one nerf too many) and new growth. Mess with that and EVE will start to shrink, which would be bad.
Ares Lightfeather Gallente	Posted - 2007.11.08 11:34:00 - [26] It's rather easy, for anyone, to cancel payments made to someone. And it can be done a few month after paying for the acount. Another MMO I played had a problem with that, because they gave away some pets that could be sold IG for loads of money. Farmers bought accounts by the dozen, sold the stuff, got IG money out of it, and canceled all payments... Otherwise, the idea of being able to block everyone from a noob corp to speak to you... most people there are newbies. I think it's a bad idea. -- Siggie ! Come back here ! -- Originally by: Victor Valka Originally by: MotherMoon well a drone UI is a bit of an artist job Drone AI is obviously done by an artist too. One that is heavily into abstract
Minerva Vulcan Caldari The Nexus Foundation	Posted - 2007.11.08 11:58:00 - [27] Originally by: GM Nova I hate to rain on your parade. In essence I like your idea. More than that, I like your williness to find a solution. The problem with this idea is that by allowing players to automatically block trial players, these new players who are actually trying the game are in danger of missing out on one of the most important aspect of the game, the community. The social network which has eveolved is immensly valuable and it could be harmfull to allow new players to be blocked from it in any way. The thing is, that anyone who'd be willing to block trial accounts with their option, already aren't interested in either helping answer questions, or any of that. Implementing this suggestion wouldn't be any loss for the community. It would only help your paying customers. _______________________________ I need new voices in my head. To speak my secret evils with. I need new lovers in my bed. To be my friends and special pets.
Minerva Vulcan Caldari The Nexus Foundation	Posted - 2007.11.08 12:00:00 - [28] Originally by: Slickdrac I don't get it, how do you guys get so much spam? My mail is completely open, and I've got no problem with evemails or convos. I have 5 accts and 12 chars, and I've gotten maybe 5 isk spam mails. Living in fairly deep low sec, I never get the spam. However, I have alts who get it. People in the big trade hubs and 1.0 sec systems get them a lot. The spammers go through and message everyone in a system, move on to the next. I'd be surprised if they didn't have routes to the 1.0 sec systems to collect names memorized at this point without using autopilot settings to figure it out. _______________________________ I need new voices in my head. To speak my secret evils with. I need new lovers in my bed. To be my friends and special pets.
Minerva Vulcan Caldari The Nexus Foundation	Posted - 2007.11.08 12:11:00 - [29] Originally by: Unvisibility Solution? Purchase of GTC's for ISK should ONLY happen directly between CCP and players. No real money should be involved, no third-parties, no trading between players. Either that or stop the entire practice and totally seperate ISK and real world money. You don't get it, do you? CCP has no need for ISK. The can spawn it out their arses in unlimited amounts. CCP would gain NOTHING from giving out free game time because you send them some ISK. Buying a GTC from a player for ISK means that that player bought a GTC from CCP (or from a retailer who purchased from CCP) therefor CCP has gained the subscription cost from the card. Just that cost is then traded off by the person who bought the code for ISK. It always makes me facepalm when I see someone say we should be able to give CCP ISK directly for game time. _______________________________ I need new voices in my head. To speak my secret evils with. I need new lovers in my bed. To be my friends and special pets.
Jowen Datloran Caldari Science and Trade Institute	Posted - 2007.11.08 12:24:00 - [30] Edited by: Jowen Datloran on 08/11/2007 12:25:51 I fully support this idea. Rookies can easily get all the help they want from other sources (like me) than spamming in local and sending hundreds of eve-mails around. EDIT: And as it is only an option I don't really see any problems with it. ---------------- Mr. Science & Trade Institute
Minerva Vulcan Caldari The Nexus Foundation	Posted - 2007.11.08 12:32:00 - [31] This needs to be implemented to protect your paying, and often long-time customers, from the constant daily harassment we're subjected to. Those who want to talk to and help out the newer players still will, while those that don't already, aren't subjected to the nonsense that is RTM spamming in every damn channel. _______________________________ I need new voices in my head. To speak my secret evils with. I need new lovers in my bed. To be my friends and special pets.
Kilostream Caldari Roving Guns Inc. RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2007.11.08 13:35:00 - [32] I'm down with this! Furthermore I'm not sure how much the block idea would damage genuine trial-accounters experience, because people genuinely trialling eve for the first time at this stage of Eve's life cycle have (in my experience) usually been introduced to the game by an existing customer, who is more than happy to provide advice and instruction to their friend, as well as bankrolling those first pricey skills and purchases to give them a leg up.
Colonel Sponsz	Posted - 2007.11.08 14:27:00 - [33] It's risk vs. reward. Don't like ISK seller spam? Get out of Empire!
Mik kyo Gr0und Zer0	Posted - 2007.11.08 14:29:00 - [34] AWSOME Perhaps the end of the "hai, liek wanna split your bounty" convos.
Minerva Vulcan Caldari The Nexus Foundation	Posted - 2007.11.08 14:37:00 - [35] Originally by: Colonel Sponsz It's risk vs. reward. Don't like ISK seller spam? Get out of Empire! It's also spammed in channels, such as Help, Trade, Blueprints... pretty much every useful public channel. It's not even about getting those annoying mails when you go to high sec. _______________________________ I need new voices in my head. To speak my secret evils with. I need new lovers in my bed. To be my friends and special pets.
Unvisibility	Posted - 2007.11.08 16:00:00 - [36] Originally by: Minerva Vulcan Originally by: Unvisibility Solution? Purchase of GTC's for ISK should ONLY happen directly between CCP and players. No real money should be involved, no third-parties, no trading between players. Either that or stop the entire practice and totally seperate ISK and real world money. You don't get it, do you? CCP has no need for ISK. The can spawn it out their arses in unlimited amounts. CCP would gain NOTHING from giving out free game time because you send them some ISK. Buying a GTC from a player for ISK means that that player bought a GTC from CCP (or from a retailer who purchased from CCP) therefor CCP has gained the subscription cost from the card. Just that cost is then traded off by the person who bought the code for ISK. It always makes me facepalm when I see someone say we should be able to give CCP ISK directly for game time. Congratulations for completely missing the point of what I said. Obviously CCP selling GTC's for ISK is a ridiculous idea and financial suicide for them. My point is that this is as ludicrous as expecting RMT to go away when it's directly encouraged by CCP in the form of the GTC for ISK trade. Until GTC's for ISK is disallowed any argument or attempt to get rid of ISK buying via other channels is doomed to failure.
Curzon Dax Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2007.11.08 17:07:00 - [37] Originally by: Minerva Vulcan Originally by: GM Nova I hate to rain on your parade. In essence I like your idea. More than that, I like your williness to find a solution. The problem with this idea is that by allowing players to automatically block trial players, these new players who are actually trying the game are in danger of missing out on one of the most important aspect of the game, the community. The social network which has eveolved is immensly valuable and it could be harmfull to allow new players to be blocked from it in any way. The thing is, that anyone who'd be willing to block trial accounts with their option, already aren't interested in either helping answer questions, or any of that. Implementing this suggestion wouldn't be any loss for the community. It would only help your paying customers. I need to emphasize this. This is the point I've been trying to make. EMPHASIZE AGAIN IN CAPS!!! Status Quo: If (S) is the number of subscriptions in Eve, and there are a number of players (X) in Eve who don't give a rat's bum about trial accounts, or helping people in the noob channel....then there are (S) - (X) players who ARE willing to help noob players. Lets call them Y. I'd bet my account, and everything in it that X > Y. In fact, I bet X > Y^2, or X > Y x10. And more. In the changes I'm proposing, the segment of the population (Y) does not decrease. As such, trial players are unaffected. However, the segment of the population X is significantly happier. Its win / win for everyone.
Curzon Dax Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2007.11.08 17:10:00 - [38] Originally by: Unvisibility Originally by: Minerva Vulcan Originally by: Unvisibility Solution? Purchase of GTC's for ISK should ONLY happen directly between CCP and players. No real money should be involved, no third-parties, no trading between players. Either that or stop the entire practice and totally seperate ISK and real world money. You don't get it, do you? CCP has no need for ISK. The can spawn it out their arses in unlimited amounts. CCP would gain NOTHING from giving out free game time because you send them some ISK. Buying a GTC from a player for ISK means that that player bought a GTC from CCP (or from a retailer who purchased from CCP) therefor CCP has gained the subscription cost from the card. Just that cost is then traded off by the person who bought the code for ISK. It always makes me facepalm when I see someone say we should be able to give CCP ISK directly for game time. Congratulations for completely missing the point of what I said. Obviously CCP selling GTC's for ISK is a ridiculous idea and financial suicide for them. My point is that this is as ludicrous as expecting RMT to go away when it's directly encouraged by CCP in the form of the GTC for ISK trade. Until GTC's for ISK is disallowed any argument or attempt to get rid of ISK buying via other channels is doomed to failure. Please do not derail my thread. This isn't about stopping RMT. My original post clearly stated that this wasn't about stopping RMT. Its about giving players the ability to push the problem to the background and play the game and have fun. Status quo: The social network in Eve has been invaded, harassed, spammed, unpleasantly degraded, destroyed. I'm requesting: Give us an option to pre-emptively ignore them. In regard to the "social network" part, I suppose I should probably say the same about Goonswarm and their COAD destruction but....one thing at a time.
Pwett Minmatar QUANT Corp. QUANT Hegemony	Posted - 2007.11.08 17:36:00 - [39] I don't understand how blocking a Noob corp would adversely affect the game in any reason. For RP reasons, if I'm RPing Gallente and I personally set SWA red, why can't I block them? Faction warfare people? _______________ Pwett CEO, Founder, & Executor <Q> QUANT Hegemony
Kenneth McCoy Vale Heavy Industries Molotov Coalition	Posted - 2007.11.08 17:48:00 - [40] There's not much more that I can add to Curzon's idea that hasn't already been covered. I'm taking a leap of faith and ASSUMING that CCP is willing and eager help staunch the spam of RMT in unavoidable situations. Nova's rebuttal, while theoretically sound, is truthfully kind of weak when I look at both sides of the idea at hand. I'd really like to see more official input, even if it IS justifying the reasons we can't have this implemented. It's been established that this option wouldn't hurt new player relations on a significant level, as someone just pointed out, a large chunk of 'new' players are referred by an already established customer, who is, like mentioned, more than willing to help out with the new player experience far more effectively than the tutorial or newplayerhelp channels will ever manage to do. In game experience is far, far more useful than scripted text and events. In short, /signed
Van'Klomp Sebiestor tribe	Posted - 2007.11.08 18:08:00 - [41] Edited by: Van''Klomp on 08/11/2007 18:08:33 I agree and disagree with alot of the comments in this post, there are some good points and ideas that I believe CCP would be crazy to ignore. At the same time, I would not want to alienate the new players, I was new once and so was everybody else. Everybody seeks help in a different way and alot of players (believe it or not) ARE willing to help new players. However, blocking incoming private messages of any kind from trial accounts is a 100% no brainer to me, I can't see why this hasn't already been done. Whilst I agree that it is the fault of those willing to buy ISK that we have this problem, I do not believe it is an issue CCP should ignore. I work in development where I often look at the 'root cause' of issues, issues that turn out to be caused by user error, so it's the user's fault. This doesn't mean I can wash my hands of it, I still need to explore every possible solution, and then dismiss them or proceed with them based on the impacts and benefits. CCP, please consider the IMPACTS of inaction. Consider the BENEFITS of action. Something more proactive needs to be done. ----------------------
Forino Ovoli Multiverse Corporation	Posted - 2007.11.08 18:09:00 - [42] What is RMT? What does the acronym stand for?
Malcanis High4Life SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2007.11.08 21:00:00 - [43] Originally by: GM Nova Ave, Curzon Dax I hate to rain on your parade. In essence I like your idea. More than that, I like your williness to find a solution. The problem with this idea is that by allowing players to automatically block trial players, these new players who are actually trying the game are in danger of missing out on one of the most important aspect of the game, the community. The social network which has eveolved is immensly valuable and it could be harmfull to allow new players to be blocked from it in any way. The popup suggestion will be implemented in the form of MOTD or message of the day when you log in. We tried it some months ago and it had a good effect. Some players seem to be unaware that RMT is not allowed. The best solution is for players to stop buying ISK. That's it. No magic tricks. You can help us in this by encouraging your fellow players not to buy ISK. We are concerned about this and we take action whenever it is warranted, but lets face the facts here. The buyers are to blame for all the spam. As long as there is demand for ISK (for real money) there will be a supply of it. You are asking for some power to the player, but you do not seem to realize that you have power. Start a movement of honest players against RMT. Make players who buy ISK be ashamed of it. Have them feel that their achievements and victories turn to ashes in their mouths because they cheat. Um... but people who use this option aren't likely to spend much time helping newbies anyway are they? Do you think people should be forced to receive messages whether they want to or not? CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that.
Splagada Minmatar Tides of Silence Hydra Alliance	Posted - 2007.11.08 21:02:00 - [44] Edited by: Splagada on 08/11/2007 21:02:24 support this and add an option to autoreject apps on corps from trial acct players ------ Proud Janitor of Tides of Silence
Lyn Z Minmatar Ctrl Alt Elites	Posted - 2007.11.08 21:11:00 - [45] Originally by: GM Nova Ave, Curzon Dax I hate to rain on your parade. In essence I like your idea. More than that, I like your williness to find a solution. The problem with this idea is that by allowing players to automatically block trial players, these new players who are actually trying the game are in danger of missing out on one of the most important aspect of the game, the community. The social network which has eveolved is immensly valuable and it could be harmfull to allow new players to be blocked from it in any way. Nova, While I see your point, and it sounds good in theory, in practicality it's just not correct. The people who would choose this option, already don't hang around the Help channels, least of all Rookie Help, which they wouldn't have access to anyway. They're not interested in helping people in Local, or getting chatted up about how to fit guns to their ships or asked for "ISK for a noob." The new players would lose nothing by this being implemented, while your paying customers who are getting harassed daily in practically every known public channel, and by EVEmail when they enter populated or very high security systems, would have a tool that is both effective and non-disruptive to anyone else, to efficiently combat this scourge that is the RMT spammers. This needs to be implemented. Yes, needs.
Sali Ennt	Posted - 2007.11.08 21:36:00 - [46] GM Nova, While I can sympathize with your position, I think it is based on an incorrect premise. Have you considered the fact that your paying customers are being denied large chunks of the community by the immense amount of spam in the public channels? Wouldn't the experience of a new player be enhanced if your paying customers were willing to join the public channels again? As it stands now - the volume of ISK sales spam might very well convince a new player that RMT is acceptable in EVE. Further, I think asking people to stop buying ISK is akin to the American "Just Say No to drugs" program. While it might influence a few people, it is ultimately doomed to fail. Human nature can not be denied. People who want to buy ISK won't be deterred by a slogan. Only enforcement and punishment have any realistic chance of succeeding. Finally, how can I shame the buyers if I don't know who they are? It's not like CCP brands them in a way the entire player base can identify.
Curzon Dax Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2007.11.09 00:58:00 - [47] Hrm....well, I don't feel lonely in my analysis of GM Nova's thoughts at least. =p
Curzon Dax Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2007.11.09 14:14:00 - [48] Originally by: Forino Ovoli What is RMT? What does the acronym stand for? \ RMT = Real Money Transfer. People buy buy and sell ISK.
Minerva Vulcan Caldari The Nexus Foundation	Posted - 2007.11.09 21:28:00 - [49] Originally by: Curzon Dax Hrm....well, I don't feel lonely in my analysis of GM Nova's thoughts at least. =p Not at all. I think the fact that he suggests that we should be responsible for stopping the RMT with a player driven and ultimately ineffectual "Shame on You!" campaign instead of giving us a simple, non-harmful, insanely beneficial option for long-time customers on the flawed claim that it would somehow be detrimental to new players is laughable. It also irks me just a bit that such a good idea gets shot down without any real thought to it, and that he probably won't even bother to look back on this thread again. Nova, on the off-chance that you read this again, do you want your members exposed to the RMT? It seems like it. Yes, we can block a name, but you know as well as I that 15 minutes later the same person/bot/whatever is back at it through a constant abuse of the trial account system. People who want to cheat to try and get ahead know they are. They don't care. The only way that you can put this in the player's hands is if you start naming names on who's bought ISK, so that we can take the names and run with them. But you won't and often can't for understandable issues and policies. You need to take a real look at this suggestion from a realisitical standpoint, coming from your player base who know what they're being exposed to, not a flawed theoretical one in my opinion. _______________________________ I need new voices in my head. To speak my secret evils with. I need new lovers in my bed. To be my friends and special pets.
Curzon Dax Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2007.11.10 16:33:00 - [50] This thread needs moar attention.
Minerva Vulcan Caldari The Nexus Foundation	Posted - 2007.11.10 16:36:00 - [51] Originally by: Curzon Dax This thread needs moar attention. Indeed. I'd really like to see some more discussion with the devs in here about this. _______________________________ I need new voices in my head. To speak my secret evils with. I need new lovers in my bed. To be my friends and special pets.
Dzajic Gallente	Posted - 2007.11.10 19:00:00 - [52] Killing GTCs wont stop RMT in any way. A lot of other MMOs have no such legal option for RMT, but also have tons of farmers working for RMT purposes. Personally, GTC trades are only thing that got me to play EVE. Idea of giving 15$/month for years on a game is... unacceptable to me. GTCs are a nice alternative. Pay your first couple of months, after that basic mission of 0.0 runs will give you ISK for GTCs. With legal RMT CCP can control the amount of ISK-$$$ trade. 40$ for a old price of 90 day GTC price of 300mill ISK is much better than 50$ for billions of ISKs. Price of farmed ISK is driving GTC prices up, as otherwise they become pointless. If non GTC RMT is banned and eradicated, we can have GTCs ISK price dropping, making it more difficult to afford billions of ISK, and making EVE subscripting easier for RL monetary poor players.
Vimir Gilixite	Posted - 2007.11.10 20:05:00 - [53] Originally by: Dzajic Stuff Epic fail. Reading comprehension FTW. Go back, re-read Curzon's ORIGINAL post, very slowly. This is about a change to the basics of Eve communications, NOT RMT/GTC sales solutions. The spam of ISK farmers is the target here, not the farmers themselves. Yes, there is NO downside here. People who want to help the newbie out will leave their settings alone. People who don't want to help out will block them. This means that active recruiters in a corp will have to run the risk of being spammed by ISK sellers, but it's better one player is accessible than the whole corp dealing with junk communications. And as was mentioned earlier, this has HUGE factional warfare possibilities. Bottom line: this is an OPTIONAL setting in your player PREFERENCES. Let me repeat that for the slow: OPTIONAL PERSONAL PREFERENCES. How hard is that to understand? It's just another tool to use or not use, but the option of having it is better then not. Wnnt to talk to noobs? Fine. Don't turn it on. Speed 100% of your time in 0.0, and aren't the recruiter for your corp? Cool, set it and never deal with a 2 minute old player in Jita trying to circumvent the EULA. So, CCP, where's the downside again? Oh, and "/signed". Great idea Curzon.
Helen Hunts Gallente Red Dragon Mining inc	Posted - 2007.11.10 21:04:00 - [54] Normally, I'm unaffected by the spammers since I'm out a ways from the major hubs and starter systems. If I venture into some of the starter systems for some reason, I get some interesting messages in the mail, although rarely will I get convos. The spam I can do without. Most of the time, I don't want to be bothered with random newbs in game. (helping on forums is different) I have enough to do keeping the friends we've recruited into EVE from blowing themselves to pieces or trying to get the bounty on that pirate guy over there.... Yes, give me the option to block out the trial accounts that I haven't added to my address book. I've got enough to deal with [aside] Yes, he's flashy red, but he's also in a battleship and you're a single frigate. Leave. Him. Alone. [/aside] already _______________________________ Mine da rocks, make more ships. Pop da rats, make more rigs. Sell da gear, make more money. Any Questions?
daemorhedron	Posted - 2007.11.10 21:39:00 - [55] Curzon has hit the nail on the head here. We really could use a system like this, and as he said, it's clearly win/win for everyone. /signed
Curzon Dax Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2007.11.11 06:46:00 - [56] Hear hear. Give us options!
Minerva Vulcan Caldari The Nexus Foundation	Posted - 2007.11.12 12:02:00 - [57] This thread needs moar dev input. _______________________________ I need new voices in my head. To speak my secret evils with. I need new lovers in my bed. To be my friends and special pets.
Mister Xerox	Posted - 2007.11.12 12:40:00 - [58] /signed. There should be a function to allow specific trial account members (i.e. people you've seduced into the Hell that is Eve). You should have a r-click option on names in chat and gag them (not block), and 'spam'. The gag button functions exactly as you'd expect, it silences them in that channel until you ungag them, but does not add them to your block-everything-from-this-guy list. The SPAM button gags the speaker (to you), but it also gives the guy a score which, if it adds up rapidly enough, gets them a complete gag from all channels & requiring that a GM examine their situation to have the flag removed. I.e. the GM can look at their outbound text to see what they've been saying, and in which channels, but only for that individual. If the GM determines the gag was warranted they can let it remain (on a timer for hours/days/permanent by channel), or ban the person. If the spammer's 'SPAM' score goes up too rapidly and from too many different channels the account is immediately locked and the player kicked off the server (this would require the 'spam' input from hundreds of people on several channels at once within say... 30 mins or so. This would prevent an alliance from getting an enemy kick/locked easily. An alliance that does manage to do this, and if a GM finds it unwarranted... ohh boy, sh*t meet fan) Once you select 'spam' for a player the flag is already set... you can't do it more than once per day or some other time interval for that individual.
Selene D'Celeste Caldari The D'Celeste Estate	Posted - 2007.11.12 20:13:00 - [59] This thread really needs another response from GM Nova or another staff member, particularly to address the point of blocking trial accounts not actually affecting trials since those of us who block them don't communicate with them anyway. And anyone new to the game that I WOULD want to talk to on a trial, I already know and have other means of communication with. It would be trivial to also have an "allowed trials" along with your "block trials" checkbox, to get around this inconvenience as well.
Xaen Caldari Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2007.11.12 20:21:00 - [60] I have a better idea. And it won't take me eleventy billiont paragraphs: Bayesian filters on chat and EVE mail. -- Support fixing the EVE UI \| Suggest Jita fixes
Curzon Dax Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2007.11.13 08:56:00 - [61] Originally by: Xaen I have a better idea. And it won't take me eleventy billiont paragraphs: Bayesian filters on chat and EVE mail. There's a lot of ideas. A lot of them are good. The point of this thread really is that there are a LOT of ideas, and none of them are being implemented. I don't care about RMT. I don't care about farmers and ISK sellers and ISK buyers. If CCP WANTED me to care, they'd publish a pillory naming and shaming ISk buyers, and a continually updated list of banned players / how much ISK was removed from the economy, etc. Since they don't, I'll tow the party line and not care either. But for God's sake, I should at least be able to ignore the problem. 1/2 of all threads in GD are about ISK buyers / sellers / spammers / farmers for a reason. Because we can't ignore it. Its thrown in our face continually. For the love of all things holy, give me the tools to ignore the problem. It won't go away, but its good enough for me.
Razor Jaxx Minmatar Cosmic Odyssey	Posted - 2007.11.13 12:09:00 - [62] Originally by: GM Nova Ave, Curzon Dax ...Some players seem to be unaware that RMT is not allowed... ...The best solution is for players to stop buying ISK. That's it. No magic tricks. You can help us in this by encouraging your fellow players not to buy ISK... ...The buyers are to blame for all the spam. As long as there is demand for ISK (for real money) there will be a supply of it... Unbelievable. So you're telling us that it is demand that creates advertising, and not the other way around? So you're telling us that the best way to help trial players, and make them aware that "buying ISK is bad", is to let ISK sellers spam the very channels likely to be occupied by trial players with offers to buy ISK for real money? Curzon's demands are very reasonable. Considering how CCP blatantly ignores the ISK selling issues in spite of various efforts within the community, it is only fair that we be given the same ability to ignore the problem, at least until you find the resolve to actually address it. It is, after all, we who are paying you to solve issues, not the other way around. And if you really care so much about trial players, maybe you should be more concerned about shielding them from the constant spam. As for the underlying RMT issue (sorry Curzon, slight thread-jacking), if CCP is really serious about hurting the whole process, there are a few easy steps : - Instant ban, char biomass and public pillory for caught buyers, including corp and alliance affiliation. - Inability to operate missions (past the tutorial agent) while in NPC corporations (in short, make farmers possible war targets). - End the GTC for ISK sales ; yes, it's unfortunate for people who do not have access to RL funds to afford the game, but no-one should be able to procure ISK through out-of-game means, no exceptions made. I'd wager 90%+ of the farmer accounts are paid for through GTC for ISK transactions. There are more, but these would be a good start.
Curzon Dax Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2007.11.14 06:05:00 - [63] Well, we all sort of know the reputations of the GMs based on how they handle us in game. =p
Arandathalion Kraerre	Posted - 2007.11.14 23:19:00 - [64] Curzon, let me just say this: I am on a trial account, and I approve this message. This probably would have stopped me from canceling my old account, had it been implemented. And on this: Originally by: GM Nova Ave, Curzon Dax I hate to rain on your parade. In essence I like your idea. More than that, I like your williness to find a solution. The problem with this idea is that by allowing players to automatically block trial players, these new players who are actually trying the game are in danger of missing out on one of the most important aspect of the game, the community. The social network which has eveolved is immensly valuable and it could be harmfull to allow new players to be blocked from it in any way. The popup suggestion will be implemented in the form of MOTD or message of the day when you log in. We tried it some months ago and it had a good effect. Some players seem to be unaware that RMT is not allowed. The best solution is for players to stop buying ISK. That's it. No magic tricks. You can help us in this by encouraging your fellow players not to buy ISK. We are concerned about this and we take action whenever it is warranted, but lets face the facts here. The buyers are to blame for all the spam. As long as there is demand for ISK (for real money) there will be a supply of it. You are asking for some power to the player, but you do not seem to realize that you have power. Start a movement of honest players against RMT. Make players who buy ISK be ashamed of it. Have them feel that their achievements and victories turn to ashes in their mouths because they cheat. Sad, sad theoretical hoo-hah that is meant to circumvent the point. What saddens me is that this will most likely be the last we hear of the GMs or devs, at least here.
Curzon Dax Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2007.11.17 01:55:00 - [65] Arandathalion: I won't pretend that you can represent all players, but its good to hear from someone on a trial account instead of just CCP telling us that the idea would screw over trial players. =p Really, the idea DOESN'T hurt anyone except those who would spam us.
Devian 666 Igneus Auctorita GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.11.17 05:24:00 - [66] Edited by: Devian 666 on 17/11/2007 05:25:36 Originally by: GM Nova Ave, Curzon Dax I hate to rain on your parade. In essence I like your idea. More than that, I like your williness to find a solution. The problem with this idea is that by allowing players to automatically block trial players, these new players who are actually trying the game are in danger of missing out on one of the most important aspect of the game, the community. The social network which has eveolved is immensly valuable and it could be harmfull to allow new players to be blocked from it in any way. Actually trial account players will not be missing out on anything. The signal to noise ratio is around 1 to 1000. I believe I have had one trial player contact me with a genuine questions. The remainder is isk selling spam. For every spam I get I generate a petition. This is wasting my time and distracts me from playing the game that I am paying for. All new player on trial accounts have access to npc corp chat and help channel chat. Having the option to block them will not result in trial players being unable to communicate with the community as they already have the two most critical channels available to them. Anyone using those channels can uncheck the trial account blocking option. So your statement is factually incorrect and endorses isk selling spam to the community. To state that it will harm new players is disrespectful to the playerbase. Overnerfing creates unbalanced ship builds. Stop overnerfing!
Synseer Minmatar Deadly Addiction	Posted - 2007.11.17 06:18:00 - [67] THis is an awesome idea but it could be even better... I traveled through some l4 mission systems and was just shocked and awed by the number of farmer alts with names like "adffasd" and "opirutioe" farming missions in ravens, all in State War Academy or in Perkone. To get rid of these farmers in one fell swoop would be simply to allow players to wardec them. But what about the true newbs? Simple. After say a month or 2 months, all starter NPC corps kick players into a NPC corporation that player corps are able to wardec.
Devian 666 Igneus Auctorita GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.11.17 06:45:00 - [68] Originally by: Synseer THis is an awesome idea but it could be even better... I traveled through some l4 mission systems and was just shocked and awed by the number of farmer alts with names like "adffasd" and "opirutioe" farming missions in ravens, all in State War Academy or in Perkone. To get rid of these farmers in one fell swoop would be simply to allow players to wardec them. But what about the true newbs? Simple. After say a month or 2 months, all starter NPC corps kick players into a NPC corporation that player corps are able to wardec. The only issue with that is a lot of new players are scared and intimidated by the CCP warning messages and war dec mechanics. While all of this stuff is understood by experienced players it's rather confusing for new players. By the majority of players blocking out trial accounts the isk sellers would have to subscribe and once they get banned it'll be costing them around 200m isk in gtc for every seller they lose. This also creates an audit trail for the GMs that investigate isk sellers, unless they use stolen credit card details which in that case can be turned over to the authories (assuming they live in a country that cares). Overnerfing creates unbalanced ship builds. Stop overnerfing!
Horseface McHorse	Posted - 2007.11.17 07:26:00 - [69] It's this kind of absolute crap that makes me think twice about coming back to EVE (and bringing potentially subscribing friends) when Trinity rolls around. Your act, please get it together CCP (at least try... or make it look like you're trying...) I'm not agreeing or disagreeing with the specific solution pointed out by Curzon, but A solution is well overdue.
MorbidPenguin Hard Corp Brotherhood Of Steel	Posted - 2007.11.17 07:27:00 - [70] I shall sign this. I fully expect CCP to have it implemented by next week. Great idea, Curzon.
Curzon Dax Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2007.11.19 04:39:00 - [71] Originally by: Synseer THis is an awesome idea but it could be even better... I traveled through some l4 mission systems and was just shocked and awed by the number of farmer alts with names like "adffasd" and "opirutioe" farming missions in ravens, all in State War Academy or in Perkone. To get rid of these farmers in one fell swoop would be simply to allow players to wardec them. But what about the true newbs? Simple. After say a month or 2 months, all starter NPC corps kick players into a NPC corporation that player corps are able to wardec. Lets not turn this into a thread about "Can we make everyone in Eve who isn't a complete noob griefable?"
Komen Gallente Aliastra	Posted - 2007.11.19 05:23:00 - [72] I am going to repost here, what I posted in another topic on much the same subject. Set your CSPA charge for people not in your address-book to the maximum allowed - 100,000 isk per mail/convo. Since doing so well over 8 months ago, I have not seen one single RMT spam. And before I set that fee, I was spammed two or three times and petitioned each and every one. Furthermore, as far as shaming isk buyers goes, a person willing to spend real currency for virtual currency is not, I feel, going to be particularly bothered by those of us who are bothered by THEM. Shame requires an acknowledgement of wrongdoing on the part of the person doing the wrong. I suspect ISK buyers don't see anything wrong with it...to their minds, they are giving up a very real benefit (cash) in trade for a service (in this case, currency in a game). To their minds, I suspect they feel that because they've paid money, they DESERVE to have their advantage. That's why I believe the shame game won't work. On the other hand, I too want a regularly updated list of RMT bans, mostly so I can just laugh at them. ___________________________________ Wielder of the Trout of Doom(tm)! ___________________________________ Redo the Domi hull for Trinity 2. Scrap the upside down shoe! Do it!
Snake Doctor MacroIntel United Corporations Against Macros	Posted - 2007.11.19 05:28:00 - [73] :( not that im not willing to help anymore, but its too hard to read all of these threads, let alone 3 pages of one I've managed to miss. Can someone sum this up for me? Is there anything MacroIntel can do? We do have our own forums set up, you know.... Call me lazy if you must. I just can't keep up with it all. See the recruitment post if you think you can help. We need it. Join Macrointel!
Devian 666 Igneus Auctorita GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.11.19 05:42:00 - [74] Originally by: Snake Doctor :( not that im not willing to help anymore, but its too hard to read all of these threads, let alone 3 pages of one I've managed to miss. Can someone sum this up for me? Is there anything MacroIntel can do? We do have our own forums set up, you know.... Call me lazy if you must. I just can't keep up with it all. See the recruitment post if you think you can help. We need it. Unfortunately it's mostly mechanics under the hood. However, educating people about configuring CSPA charges would help. I usually put it on allow all because "unfortunately" I end up working with a lot of people in many alliances. There was one occassion where I was contacted by evemail where I'd seen the offending pilot at the gate in a hauler. Needless to say one petition later that pilot would have been banned. We almost won. [ 2007.11.17 08:26:19 ] (combat) <color=0xffbbbb00>Your 150mm Railgun II places an excellent hit on Shrike [EVOL]<BOB>(Avatar), inflicting 41.4 damage.
Curzon Dax Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2007.11.19 06:53:00 - [75] Setting your CSPA charge to 100k isn't an optimal solution. Personally, I get a LOT of mail, convos, and such from strangers for various business ventures, and I don't want to cut into peoples' wallet for something I don't need to. And besides, the ability to block trial accounts goes much further than EVEmail - it would apply to trade and public channels, which are the hardest hit. Setting your CSPA charge to anything doesn't fix that, unless you don't engage in Eve's social aspects on a community level.
Glengrant Minmatar TOHA Heavy Industries Brutally Clever Empire	Posted - 2007.11.19 09:52:00 - [76] I agree with GM Nova (and almost everybody else I guess) that Isk buyers are the root of the problem (same as with 90% of all email nowwdays ebing spam for which we have to thank the idiots who buy that V. product that way). I agree with almost everybody else here that we (as players) can't do much about that as Isk buyers don't put that into their Bios. There is the occasional case were a corp mate might mention it beforehand and we could discourage that - but that's the limit. I don't get much spam (never go to Jita :-) ) and don't use the big purblic channels much. But I'd like to see the proposals implemented. As has been pointed out those to activate these flags are those least likey to talk to trials anyway - and not everybody will switch it on. Trial players will still have lots of players who won't activate the filter, the many other people in their npc corps and the forum for community access. And that's just for those who are not introduced into the game by buddies. /signed p.s. For good measure: SHAME ON ISK BUYERS - YOU ARE LAME!!! ISK BUYER = LOOSER
Curzon Dax Deep Core Mining Inc.	Posted - 2007.11.21 19:33:00 - [77] I'm bumping for posterity.
Irongut M'8'S Frontal Impact	Posted - 2007.11.21 20:21:00 - [78] What's RMT? I can tell from scanning your post that you're talking about isk sellers and their spam but I've never heard that acronym before and still have no idea what it stands for. Perhaps if I knew the first paragraph might make more sense and I might be more inclined to read your post properly. Join M8S Racing Team sponsored by Frontier Technologies!
Paddlefoot Aeon Neogen Industries Daisho Syndicate	Posted - 2007.11.21 20:22:00 - [79] Originally by: Irongut What's RMT? I can tell from scanning your post that you're talking about isk sellers and their spam but I've never heard that acronym before and still have no idea what it stands for. Perhaps if I knew the first paragraph might make more sense and I might be more inclined to read your post properly. RMT = Real Money Trading EVE uses ISK, WOW uses gold, Final Fantasy 11 Online uses Gil.... RMT covers all cases of trading in-game currency for real world money. Now Recruiting. Click sig for details!
Ulstan	Posted - 2007.11.21 20:41:00 - [80] I support this thread.
Killian Long	Posted - 2007.11.22 15:45:00 - [81] Originally by: Unvisibility Originally by: Curzon Dax You've got to look at this from CCP's point of view too though - the new player experience in EVE is already terrible. EVE is extremely harsh, has a very steep learning curve and, let's be honest here, sucks as a new player for a million reasons. Anything that makes that experience worse is going to simply stop the influx of new players. EVE's subscriber base has consistently grown over the last 4 years, but very, VERY, VERY slowly. This means there's a delicate balance between the rate of attrition (old players leaving after one nerf too many) and new growth. Mess with that and EVE will start to shrink, which would be bad. LOL - speaking as a new player who just upgraded from the trial .... I found the Tutorial FUN & EASY I did tend to stick to the Rookie & Local Channels and, I don't recall actually needing to contact any other player that wasn't "in system" or on the Rookie Channel during that period. I also saw no need to send mails to anyone (I guess that's my anti-social nature ) So, in short - I Agree with the OP - Allow players to CHOOSE who they want to communicate with / block groups they have no intention of communicating with. Possible modication: Allow players "blocked" via a "group block" to communicate on a individual basis (i.e. an active decision to selectivle add players to a "buddy" list)
Minerva Vulcan Caldari The Nexus Foundation	Posted - 2007.11.22 16:16:00 - [82] This thread needs more love and implementation. _______________________________ I need new voices in my head, To speak my secret evils with. I need new lovers in my bed, To be my friends and special pets.

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