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Ship Balancing: Dramiel! (and Logistics)

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CCP Spitfire C C P C C P Alliance 102	Posted - 2011.09.06 06:44:00 - [1] - Quote (on behalf of CCP Tallest) Hello EVE players. I'm CCP Tallest and I'll be doing some much needed ship balancing in the coming months. Being on Team BFF, aka "the little things" team, I wanted to start with some low-hanging fruit and work my way up to the bigger balancing issues. These changes are not set in stone and I would very much like to hear what you think of them. Without further ado, here is what I'm thinking so far: Lostistics The thing that really stands out is the warp speed. It's lower than all the other tech 2 cruisers and that's just not cool. Ship Warp Speed: from 3 AU/S to 3.75 AU/s Dramiel It's too fast. Obvious dev is obvious. Specifically, the mass is far too low when compared to other frigates. The scan resolution is also very high for a non-interceptor and I want to lower that as well. Mass: from 740,700 kg to 950,000 kg Max Velocity: from 473m/s to 460m/s Scan Resolution: from 990mm to 750mm Non-modified MWDII speed would go from 5,058m/s to 4,292m/s Non-modified ABII speed would go from 1,797m/s to 1,578m/s Aligning speed will go from 3.2s to 4.1s Dramiel will still be the fastest frigate, but will go from 1. to 2. place in align-speed (after Daredevil) Disclaimer: I know that there are many other things that are in need of balancing. I've started with these two because I had to start somewhere and the solutions to these seemed relatively simple compared to other ships/classes. Other ships/classes will also be rebalanced in the coming months. Disclaimer II: We do not have a release date for any ship balancing changes at this point, but it will definitely not be released in the upcoming Incarna patch.

monkfish1234 Red Federation RvB - RED Federation 0	Posted - 2011.09.06 17:16:00 - [2] - Quote a good start i'd say. please dont let the drake nerf be too far behind. also please take a look at ship teirs (especially bc) so that each of the ships has a proper role.
Pesadel0 the muppets RED.OverLord 1	Posted - 2011.09.06 18:47:00 - [3] - Quote Wen will this suposed nerf hit ?Next year?
Tyears Imperial Academy Amarr Empire 0	Posted - 2011.09.07 00:36:00 - [4] - Quote Wow, a post about a ****ing frigate's speed, yet nothing on supercaps which have been broken for 21 months now.
Aiwha 101st Space Marine Force Nulli Secunda 4	Posted - 2011.09.07 00:40:00 - [5] - Quote Tyears wrote: Wow, a post about a ****ing frigate's speed, yet nothing on supercaps which have been broken for 21 months now. He's fixing "the little things", SC's are a major thing.
DrDan21 Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore 68	Posted - 2011.09.07 01:38:00 - [6] - Quote Aiwha wrote: Tyears wrote: Wow, a post about a ****ing frigate's speed, yet nothing on supercaps which have been broken for 21 months now. He's fixing "the little things", SC's are a major thing. And a dram nerf is long overdue.
Luxotor Interwebs Cooter Explosion Fatal Ascension 0	Posted - 2011.09.07 02:11:00 - [7] - Quote The Logistics boost would be fantastic.
AetomHaert Mother Star Frontiers BricK sQuAD. 0	Posted - 2011.09.07 02:59:00 - [8] - Quote Tyears wrote: Wow, a post about a ****ing frigate's speed, yet nothing on supercaps which have been broken for 21 months now. Cram it, the SC nerf and Hybrid buff have both been promised. Glad the hear the Team BFF is sticking to its guns and still getting things done.
Derth Ramir Hellion Evolution 0	Posted - 2011.09.07 03:23:00 - [9] - Quote monkfish1234 wrote: a good start i'd say. please dont let the drake nerf be too far behind. also please take a look at ship teirs (especially bc) so that each of the ships has a proper role. The Drake does not need to be nerfed. It has been nerfed multiple times if I believe.
Yvan Ratamnim Phoenix Evolved Part Duo 12	Posted - 2011.09.07 03:51:00 - [10] - Quote Both of these changes are good, and thats coming from a dramiel pilot and logistics pilot lol... Though i'd ask for you to consider going further with logistics especially the scimitar, mini are supposed to be fast, give them an even faster AU warp speed (i'm a guardian pilot so if u want to throw me a bit faster warp too wud be nice, tho the guardian is one of the fatter logis lol)
Yvan Ratamnim Phoenix Evolved Part Duo 12	Posted - 2011.09.07 03:54:00 - [11] - Quote Derth Ramir wrote: monkfish1234 wrote: a good start i'd say. please dont let the drake nerf be too far behind. also please take a look at ship teirs (especially bc) so that each of the ships has a proper role. The Drake does not need to be nerfed. It has been nerfed multiple times if I believe. Agreed, just leave it alone, drakes are the opposite of canes, drakes have tank , canes have gank... Honestly BC's arent where balancing needs to start ... Ship wise balancing... Supercarrers are biggest issue, followed by blackops, and finally all the Assault Frigates
quigibow Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation 1	Posted - 2011.09.07 04:08:00 - [12] - Quote the op should add this link to the original op on the old forums plus this: CCP Tallest wrote: DarkAegix wrote: are hybrids acknowledged as being weak? They are on my list of things that need balancing. NosubstanceHere wrote: How bout you fix sub-cap Gallente hulls? They are also on my list. Based on your feedback, I will take better look at the powergrid, capacitor and drone bay on the Dramiel as well as looking into whether or not the Oneiros needs a boost when compared to the other logistics ships. read this about general balancing followed up with this: CCP Tallest wrote: About the Oneiros... What do you think about increasing the armor to about 3000, reducing the sig radius to 70 and adding a little space to the drone bay for spare drones? mind you this was last updated on June 29th... any chances ccp tallest will give us an update on things? plus please oh please add this as the boost to dreads!
Firia O'Flame Gunpoint Mercantile Associates 0	Posted - 2011.09.07 04:16:00 - [13] - Quote CCP Spitfire wrote: (on behalf of CCP Tallest) Hello EVE players. I'm CCP Tallest and I'll be doing some much needed ship balancing in the coming months. Being on Team BFF, aka "the little things" team, I wanted to start with some low-hanging fruit and work my way up to the bigger balancing issues. These changes are not set in stone and I would very much like to hear what you think of them. Without further ado, here is what I'm thinking so far: Lostistics The thing that really stands out is the warp speed. It's lower than all the other tech 2 cruisers and that's just not cool. Ship Warp Speed: from 3 AU/S to 3.75 AU/s Hello Spitfire, I'm Firia, and I'm something of a PVP player in highsec areas. I'd like to contribute my experience, concerns, and opinions to your thought process to achieve a more of a positive result to balance issues than is normally associated with nerfing. I want to touch on two topics; the Logistics ships (and by extension the mechanics behind them), and the Drake-all races battle cruisers. I've never flown a logi ship, so I cannot speak about what it's like to sit in the cockpit of one and fly an effective logi-assist for other players. As I mentioned before, I'm a high sec PVPer, so I have encountered a great many off of stations and seldom outside of the docking ring. I'm sure you, Spitfire, is aware of how aggro mechanics work, but I'd like to get into how they work around logi ships for those reading that are not aware: Remote repairs work like any assisting module does; it transfers all red flags to the logi pilot with a fresh 15 minute aggression timer. This means that a neutral player could assist a corporation in their war by providing remote reps. The pilot will earn all the red flags the players s/he assists has. I want to come back to that example, so keep it in mind. In normal PVP scenarios, when one player shoots another, a hidden timer starts running down, and refreshes with every new aggressive action. This timer prevents aggressors from jumping through gates, or docking in stations. When it comes to Remote Reps, these actions are not considered aggressive and these timers do not start running, allowing the pilot to instantly jump/dock at the moment they get aggressed upon. When a neutral logi player provides assistance to a player or corp engaged in pvp, they earn all the red flags, and the opposing force is allowed to shoot them. However they earn NONE of the aggression timers allowing them to dock/jump instantly. Thanks to the overall positive recent change in Incarna that did away with session change timers produced by swapping ships, a logi ship can provide support, get shot, dock, slip into a different pvp ship, and undock to provide fighting assistance to the turmoil all in the span of 20 seconds. A battle can be fought and lost over this exploit. A single well tanked battleship can hold its own against a fleet of battlecruisers thanks to the assistance of a logi or two. And if those logis get attacked, they are allowed to join the battle. This leads to very stale combats. "Station games," as my corp likes to call them. This sounds more like an exploit than balancing issues, but the logi ships are weighed on this exploit of aggro mechanics, not their numbers. If the logi ships are going to be looked at, I would suggest looking at the timers behind Assistance modules. I don't know if the answer is to attache a similar timer as those of aggressive actions, but that's what my mind gravitates towards. Next on the list is Drakes; when you said "low hanging fruit," and balance issues, I knew someone was going to bring up nerfing the Drake. The first reply to your post was that comment. I'd like to offer an idea that is not a simple nerf. Battlecruisers in Eve are some of the most versatile T1 ships in the game. Their versatility leads to creativity and fun from the players. They can be fitted to produce results some people would have never thought of, and still be doing it contextually right. The Drakes versatility is extraordinary, giving it options to do a number of different things given the situation. It's role in the game too is king of PVE situations, with enough versatility to allow it a foothold in the PVP world. I would contest that the Drake doesn't need to be brought down, but that other battlecruisers need to be brought up. Each races BC seems to have a role. The Drake is a pve god thanks to its ability to tank. The Hurricane is a master of PVP, the myrmadon is the best BC drone boat for either pvp or pve applications. Amarr... well, I've never felt their Battlecruisers were their strong point. But maybe that's just it; the Drake's versatility in the pve world is matched by the Hurricanes versatility in the pvp world. The Myrm is a nice middleground, while the Amarr options all come up short. Perhaps bolstering the myrm and Harbinger a little the answer to sorting out the Drake- put them on even ground. Thank you for reading, Spitfire. I hope this helps create ideas that balance ships and also bring fun to those that fly in, with, and against them.
Zarnak Wulf Amok. Goonswarm Federation 2	Posted - 2011.09.07 07:01:00 - [14] - Quote This thread has gone at least two months without a Dev giving some sort of input. Feedback works both ways.
AnzacPaul Perkone Caldari State 77	Posted - 2011.09.07 07:10:00 - [15] - Quote Zarnak Wulf wrote: This thread has gone at least two months without a Dev giving some sort of input. Feedback works both ways. +1 for an update Tallest, you started so well.
teh munK Section Eight LLC Omega Vector 0	Posted - 2011.09.07 07:21:00 - [16] - Quote Firia O'Flame wrote: A battle can be fought and lost over this exploit. A single well tanked battleship can hold its own against a fleet of battlecruisers thanks to the assistance of a logi or two. And if those logis get attacked, they are allowed to join the battle. This leads to very stale combats. "Station games," as my corp likes to call them. A Fix for this issue, stop being gay and playing station games in high sec. Go to low or null sec if you want a fight.
Justin Cody T.A.L.O.N. Company B4D W01F 2	Posted - 2011.09.07 08:50:00 - [17] - Quote Derth Ramir wrote: monkfish1234 wrote: a good start i'd say. please dont let the drake nerf be too far behind. also please take a look at ship teirs (especially bc) so that each of the ships has a proper role. The Drake does not need to be nerfed. It has been nerfed multiple times if I believe. The entire caldari race has been nerfed multiple times. LEAVE BRITNEY ALONE!
qwijJibow Handsome Millionaire Playboys Flatline. 0	Posted - 2011.09.07 16:26:00 - [18] - Quote bump... can we get this sticky please
Rhinanna Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic 0	Posted - 2011.09.07 19:06:00 - [19] - Quote I was just looking at the dram nerf, and each time I look at it, it still seems like the dram is OP. Compare it to the ceptors, its still faster, has 2 or 3 times the EHP and 2 or 3 times the DPS. Even after the nerf, I can't really justify a ship faster than a inty having more dps and EHP than most assault frigs. It either needs to slow down to the middle ground between AFs and inties or needs a DPS and tank nerf while leaving the speed unchanged making it more an inty style craft. As far as the drake goes, I must have missed the changes that nerfed it if they where recent, anyone care to update me? The logi buff is minor, logis really need other changes to make paired logis less powerful, a pair of logis can currently sit there repping each other for way too much. Not sure on a solution, I did suggest making the rep optimal range much shorter and giving reps a 'falloff' like weapons so that to do max repair you had to huge the other guy, beyond optimal DPS healed was much reduced. They really do need agression timers on RR as well, it does make station/gate games very very boring otherwise.
monkfish1234 Red Federation RvB - RED Federation 0	Posted - 2011.09.08 00:38:00 - [20] - Quote I will admit in my previous post i porbably chose the wrong working when i said 'nerf' for drakes. the situation at the moment which has been covered a few time already now it think is that fleet compositions should be a variety of ships. In the event that a fleet can be highly successful with 1 or 2 ship types within it then it is likly that there is a balancing issue that needs to be addressed. This is apparent in a few fleet types, SC, drake fleets, abaddon are the main ones that spring to mind. In the case of the drake i agree with some of the other posts, if other the other bcs were more competative then there would likly be more variation. also the questions can be asked why are bc fleets more common than bs these days?? this all comes down to balancing and the way players have evolved their pvp tactics. eve right now has got to a point where so many things have been left broken that things such as balancing have gotten way out of line. hopefully this is the start of regular balancing across the board to try and get pvp back to what it was a few years ago.
Duchess Starbuckington Starbuckington Manor 1	Posted - 2011.09.08 01:22:00 - [21] - Quote The last thread pretty much hit the nail on the head on the matter of the Dramiel - the speed isn't so much the issue, as the fact it does everything else too well. It has ample fitting space, slots, tank, DPS, low cap reliance and generally no real downside. Suggested solution - leave the speed as-is (or a small tone-down at most) - but remove 1 mid and the drone bay. Oh additionally: Quote: I would contest that the Drake doesn't need to be brought down, but that other battlecruisers need to be brought up To put this bluntly: **** NO. Battlecruisers in general are too good for their price, and buffing 7 out of 8 of them would be power creep on a ridiculous level. All the BCs are perfectly viable, with the highly debatable exception of the Prophecy. This is assuming the Drake even needs a nerf, which is a controversial topic to say the least. Most of the arguments on this seem to stem from the fact it happens to be quite good in large gangs. Far from uncounterable though, and it's nowhere near as good solo as the Hurricane.
Taryn Porter Senex Legio Get Off My Lawn 0	Posted - 2011.09.09 17:41:00 - [22] - Quote Zarnak Wulf wrote: This thread has gone at least two months without a Dev giving some sort of input. Feedback works both ways. Dates are year, month, day. This was started two days ago. No hate for CCP Tallest.
Duchess Starbuckington Starbuckington Manor 1	Posted - 2011.09.09 19:25:00 - [23] - Quote Quote: Dates are year, month, day. This was started two days ago. No hate for CCP Tallest. You don't visit features and ideas much do you? This thread was active for a good 2 months on the old forums.
inexistin Rubbish and Garbage Removal Atlas. 2	Posted - 2011.09.09 23:31:00 - [24] - Quote I would rather see an interceptor buff than an Dramiel nerf. But then again, that's a shitton of work and I'm drunk. But I'd still rather see an interceptor buff. Currently, they're just cannon fodder and die too quickly.
Duchess Starbuckington Starbuckington Manor 1	Posted - 2011.09.09 23:36:00 - [25] - Quote Quote: I would rather see an interceptor buff than an Dramiel nerf. But then again, that's a shitton of work and I'm drunk. But I'd still rather see an interceptor buff. Currently, they're just cannon fodder and die too quickly. Interceptors do just fine at their role. The Dramiel on the other hand obsoletes almost every other frigate just by existing. Nerf it.
Duchess Starbuckington Starbuckington Manor 1	Posted - 2011.09.10 11:09:00 - [26] - Quote Bump
Kadeyoo Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire 0	Posted - 2011.09.10 22:55:00 - [27] - Quote Nerf Drake Buff Legion Remove Supercaps Eve fixed.
Cosmo Raata T-Cells Moar Tears 0	Posted - 2011.09.11 01:26:00 - [28] - Quote Astarte needs buff. There is a reason the ship sells for 150 mil while all the other field commands sell for over 200 mil. 3 problems. 1. Active armor tank is broken. 2. Too slow to get in blaster range. 3. Scram and web changes hurt how this ship operates. Suggestion without bringing up blaster fix or asking for recall of scram change: Remove active tank bonus, replace with afterburner speed bonus (make it almost as fast using the mwd). Add 200 pg to allow ship to fit a buffer to go along with a rack of blasters.
Sigras Conglomo IMPERIAL LEGI0N 3	Posted - 2011.09.11 01:41:00 - [29] - Quote Kadeyoo wrote: Nerf Drake Buff Legion Remove Supercaps Eve fixed. yeah because blasters arent broken, and black ops ships have a role, and EAS are useful, and defenders arent pointless, and probing on grid snipers isnt overpowered . . . need I go on?
MeBiatch Republic University Minmatar Republic 19	Posted - 2011.09.11 02:20:00 - [30] - Quote Cosmo Raata wrote: Astarte needs buff. There is a reason the ship sells for 150 mil while all the other field commands sell for over 200 mil. 3 problems. 1. Active armor tank is broken. 2. Too slow to get in blaster range. 3. Scram and web changes hurt how this ship operates. Suggestion without bringing up blaster fix or asking for recall of scram change: Remove active tank bonus, replace with afterburner speed bonus (make it almost as fast using the mwd). Add 200 pg to allow ship to fit a buffer to go along with a rack of blasters. i was thinking more: 1. fix the internal rep bonus by making it affect incomming RR 2. change the armour rig bonus from speed per lev to agility 3. make the 50% boost to fall off built into hybrids and change the ship bonus to 5% reduction in mass per level 4. add 200 pg

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