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Pottsey
Enheduanni Foundation
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Posted - 2007.11.12 11:07:00 -
[31]
ôAnd the Nighthawk. Preventing Command Ships from fitting LSE II would destroy its ability to passive tank.ö
Caldari battlecruiser size ships where made to active tank not passive. Would it really hurt it to force it back to active tanking only like it was made for?
It was only an accident they could passive tank. Not a planed change.
Passive shield tanking guide click here |
Horus Dark
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Posted - 2007.11.12 11:08:00 -
[32]
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
HARBINGER:
DEFENSE: 715 dps
DEFENSE W/ ZERO CAP: 537 dps
OFFENSE: 311 dps
CAPACITOR: Runs for over an hour with Smartie off and for 13 minutes with Smartie active.
HIGHS:
7x 650mm Artillery Cannon II
1x Sm Plasma Smartbomb II
MIDS:
4x LSE II
1x Invuln II
LOWS
6x Shield Power RelayII
RIGS:
3x Core Defense Field Purger I
DRONES:
5x Hammerhead II
-----------------------
a harbinger with Artillery cannons and 5 mids?
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DarK
STK Scientific
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Posted - 2007.11.12 12:26:00 -
[33]
 Originally by: Pottsey
ôAnd the Nighthawk. Preventing Command Ships from fitting LSE II would destroy its ability to passive tank.ö
Caldari battlecruiser size ships where made to active tank not passive. Would it really hurt it to force it back to active tanking only like it was made for?
It was only an accident they could passive tank. Not a planed change.
Evidence that caldari aren't meant to passive tank?
ECM was initially a gallente electronic warfare system too, suppose you'll be wanting that back too! Oh wait, that doesn't impact your gallente shieldtanking fetish!
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Pottsey
Enheduanni Foundation
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Posted - 2007.11.12 13:53:00 -
[34]
"Evidence that caldari aren't meant to passive tank?"
For years Caldari couldnÆt passive tank. When Caldari BC came out they where very rubbish passive tanks and where only active tanked. Proving they where made as active tank ships. Gallente where the ones who invented passive tanking and have did it for years longer then Caldari. Gallente also hold all the records like fastest recharge, most HP regen e.c.t
During the hitpoint change to extend combat extenders where tweaked to work better on battleships. Due to an oversight passive tanking got a massive boost and this was when we started seeing Caldari passive tanks. Before then Caldari passive tanks where extremely rare you only had Gallente doing it.
Going by the dev blogs of the time it wasnÆt planed to make Caldari passive tanks it was a mistake. Undo the extender change and passive tank will stop working on Caldari ships. The extender change wasnÆt for passive tanking it was to extend combat with hit points.
Passive shield tanking guide click here |
Atsuko Ratu
Caldari
Advanced Logistics
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Posted - 2007.11.12 13:59:00 -
[35]
Originally by: Pottsey
"Evidence that caldari aren't meant to passive tank?"
For years Caldari couldnÆt passive tank. When Caldari BC came out they where very rubbish passive tanks and where only active tanked. Proving they where made as active tank ships. Gallente where the ones who invented passive tanking and have did it for years longer then Caldari. Gallente also hold all the records like fastest recharge, most HP regen e.c.t
During the hitpoint change to extend combat extenders where tweaked to work better on battleships. Due to an oversight passive tanking got a massive boost and this was when we started seeing Caldari passive tanks. Before then Caldari passive tanks where extremely rare you only had Gallente doing it.
Going by the dev blogs of the time it wasnÆt planed to make Caldari passive tanks it was a mistake. Undo the extender change and passive tank will stop working on Caldari ships. The extender change wasnÆt for passive tanking it was to extend combat with hit points.
You're missing the main point though. Passive tanking is one of the most useless setups in game. It's tanking ability is worse than active setups, and it can't do anything else at the same time. So why does it matter? Making them harder to fit would nerf a lot more than just the drake that can't move. A lot of recons and some hacs require one to survive for more than 2 shots. Ever fly a falcon?
The biggest irony though is your argument. CCP wanted to extend combat, and that's exactly what they did with the PG reduction. Now recons, hacs, and bcs have much more hp than they had before, effectivly increasing the length of combat.
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Ms Belle
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Posted - 2007.11.12 14:08:00 -
[36]
I find the point about uber passive tanks on caldari ships a little mute as in order to make an effective passive tank you give up all your mids/lows and rig slots.
Now I am not sure about anyone else but that is one hell of a price to pay for a capless tank and what use is it in PvP when all the enemy has to do is ignore you.
Lets look at the senarios:
DEFENCE:
Passive Tanked Battlecruiser ratting in a belt. Gets tackled by a hostile if the Ratting pilot is ignoring local. Attacking ship cannot break Passive Battlecruiser and the ratting ship has the same problem vs the attacker (unless the Ratting ship is tanked specifically against the rats it is hunting or is being pounded by a battleship spawn as well). Net result the attacker either gets friends to help or has NPC's do the extra DPS needed.
Passive Battlecrusier jumps into a gatecamp... Need I say more its a brick with hitpoints and a tank. its going to die regardless as it is too fat and slow to escape.
OFFENCE:
Passive Battlecrusier with a roaming gang only has a use as extra DPS or as bait because of its tank. a canny fleet commander will have scouts or leave the Battlecruiser till last.
Fleet battles. the passive battlecruiser is only really useful as an antisupport ship but not great at it. its ok but for the cost you might of well brought a sniper fitted Mega and be more useful.
so in summary I see no need to nerf the ship. It has enough drawbacks built in to justify the impressive tank.
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Pottsey
Enheduanni Foundation
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Posted - 2007.11.12 14:42:00 -
[37]
öPassive tanking is one of the most useless setups in game. It's tanking ability is worse than active setups, and it can't do anything else at the same time. So why does it matter?ö
I proved that wrong many times. Look at my hyper setup thread. Better tank, more range, better damage then the dual amour rep active tank. Passive tanks can do other stuff at the same time. ThatÆs a stupid myth thatÆs not true about then doing nothing else.
Passive shield tanking guide click here |
Neon Genesis
The Landed Gentry
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Posted - 2007.11.12 14:53:00 -
[38]
There is no problem with passive tanking and drakes. The tanks are extremely good but the dps is awful. Not a good balance considering the current climate.
_
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Matiaj
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Posted - 2007.11.12 15:24:00 -
[39]
Edited by: Matiaj on 12/11/2007 15:35:46
Originally by: Pottsey
Look at my hyper setup thread. Better tank, more range, better damage then the dual amour rep active tank. Passive tanks can do other stuff at the same time. ThatÆs a stupid myth thatÆs not true about then doing nothing else.
Your hyperion setup has no damage mod, no propulsion mod, and no tackle at all.
So yeah, it does absolutely nothing except crap dps, and is basically useless in PvP.
Which is exactly what we're saying.
Thanks for confirming that.
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Pottsey
Enheduanni Foundation
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Posted - 2007.11.12 16:20:00 -
[40]
ôYour hyperion setup has no damage mod, no propulsion mod, and no tackle at all.
So yeah, it does absolutely nothing except crap dps, and is basically useless in PvP.ö
Your wrong. 3 damage mods and room for propulsion. No tackle as its not needed as my gang mate would do it.
Why would it do crap DPS with 8 of the largest weapons and 3 damage mods?
Passive shield tanking guide click here |
haniblecter
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Posted - 2007.11.12 16:51:00 -
[41]
Originally by: Ris Dnalor
Edited by: Ris Dnalor on 11/11/2007 20:56:35
The following fittings are with my skills. These are on EFT and use the following implants. KVA1000, KYA1000, PG4. I never use more than 1 active hardner on a my 'passive' shield tanks b/c i want to have some ability to run the tank for a long time and some tank even if i am cap neutralized. These are pve setups designed to last defensively in pvp for a long time while waiting on help to arrive to save your buttox.
Quote:
DRAKE:
DEFENSE: 868 dps(avg'd dmg types)
DEFENSE W/ ZERO CAP: 661 dps
OFFENSE: 333 dps
CAPACITOR: runs forever with smartbomb off and for 16 minutes with smartbomb running.
HIGH:
7x HML II (caldari navy scourge)
1x Sm Plasma Smartbomb II (vitally important to kill attacking pvp drones)
MIDS:
3x LSE II
1x Magnetic Scattering Amp II
1x Heat Dissipation Amp II
1x Invuln II
LOWS:
4x Shield Power Relay
RIGS:
3x Core Defense Field Purger I
Wow, thats some compelling information there Ris. TOo bad you have NO TACKLING MODULES. So, that's an entirely unpractical fit for anything but gangs. And in all honesty, who cares if a 333dps drake has a super tank, just means the opposing gang will kill you last, *****.
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haniblecter
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Posted - 2007.11.12 16:56:00 -
[42]
Originally by: Pottsey
ôYour hyperion setup has no damage mod, no propulsion mod, and no tackle at all.
So yeah, it does absolutely nothing except crap dps, and is basically useless in PvP.ö
Your wrong. 3 damage mods and room for propulsion. No tackle as its not needed as my gang mate would do it.
Why would it do crap DPS with 8 of the largest weapons and 3 damage mods?
Oooh, so you have a gang mate. So this isnt a 'solopwnmobile' whine? Well that's funny, who cares what combination of ships might be good, its still 2x ships vs. one in your arguement, and that should almost always trump 1 ship in labratory like settings, as you and most all EFT ******s argue.
And to stop your next logical argument right now, "But what if we're fighting 2x ships", who fricking cares. Those two ships, assuming they're flying together with a plan, like your drake and his lame friend, are probably going to be using an ever more powerful combination, like a huginn and lachesis.
So in the end, Ill only really respect solopwnmobile whiners (maringally more mind you) if you have a valid 1v1 OP'd statement that also recognizes that you need to at least be able to put 1 point on them.
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Matiaj
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Posted - 2007.11.12 17:04:00 -
[43]
Edited by: Matiaj on 12/11/2007 17:06:47
Originally by: Pottsey
Your wrong. 3 damage mods and room for propulsion. No tackle as its not needed as my gang mate would do it.Why would it do crap DPS with 8 of the largest weapons and 3 damage mods?
Sure, and now that you have 3 lowslots used for damage mods, and 1 medslot used for a mwd (and an injector would be wise too), your Hyperion can't tank for crap.
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Terianna Eri
Amarr
STK Scientific
Black-Out
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Posted - 2007.11.12 17:10:00 -
[44]
Originally by: Pottsey
ôAnd the Nighthawk. Preventing Command Ships from fitting LSE II would destroy its ability to passive tank.ö
Caldari battlecruiser size ships where made to active tank not passive. Would it really hurt it to force it back to active tanking only like it was made for?
It was only an accident they could passive tank. Not a planed change.
Okay.
I think we should then nerf every gallente ship that fulfills a role for which it was not initially designed. How bad could it be?
Get off your high horse; Gallente shouldn't be the only race that can get an effective tank via hitpoints and recharge.
__________________________________
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08891
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Posted - 2007.11.12 17:14:00 -
[45]
Originally by: Pottsey
ôRepeat after me: LSEs are NOT battleship sized modules.
The closest thing fitting/hp wise is an 800mm plate.ô
They are very much battleship module and used to be battleships only. PG was lowered a little to make them work better on battelships and now BC and cruiser use them. For years LSE's where battleship only.
ôI stopped reading about the point where you started complaining caldari BC's were better shield tankers than the other ARMOR TANKING RACES.ö
Caldari are the active shield tankers the main passive shield tank race are Gallente. So Gallente should be best at passive tanking.
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Atsuko Ratu
Caldari
Advanced Logistics
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Posted - 2007.11.12 17:25:00 -
[46]
So you brag about your uber passive tank because you can deal average dps with an above average tank, while having no tackling gear? And it is somehow more effective than a armor setup? Have you actually compared a no-tackling, no-mwd armor tanker against that flying rock? Probably not.
You know what would happen in that gang fight? The tackler would be ECMed and whoever you attack will just warp out. All your allies will be killed and your tank would break against the average gang pretty quickly.
There is no point bragging about a setup that can't even move or keep something still.
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JamnOne
Amarr
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Posted - 2007.11.12 17:49:00 -
[47]
Originally by: Ris Dnalor
Edited by: Ris Dnalor on 11/11/2007 20:56:35
Quote:
HARBINGER:
DEFENSE: 715 dps
DEFENSE W/ ZERO CAP: 537 dps
OFFENSE: 311 dps
CAPACITOR: Runs for over an hour with Smartie off and for 13 minutes with Smartie active.
HIGHS:
7x 650mm Artillery Cannon II
1x Sm Plasma Smartbomb II
MIDS:
4x LSE II
1x Invuln II
LOWS
6x Shield Power RelayII
RIGS:
3x Core Defense Field Purger I
DRONES:
5x Hammerhead II
No Self Respecting Amarrian will put LSE on a Harb or any other Amarrian Ship! We are Armor tank.
Now that is out of the way - something you need to remember - A battlecruiser is part BS and part Cruiser. So it can't use heavy guns but it can use heavier tanking modules. These heavier tanking modules increase the sig radius of the ship making it easier to target and they also slow the ship down.
Don't look at your skills and how you can setup a ship. Look at the other players skills and how they can rip into any ship you throw at them. If you think I am wrong for this statement, take all 4 of these ships to 0 I am sure there are a few pilots who would be more than willing to give you a lesson about tanking and throwing damage.
________________________
Originally by: CCP Prism X
Hah! Vengeance is sweet! 
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Pottsey
Enheduanni Foundation
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Posted - 2007.11.12 18:04:00 -
[48]
ôOooh, so you have a gang mate. So this isnt a 'solopwnmobile' whine? Well that's funny, who cares what combination of ships might be good, its still 2x ships vs. one in your arguement,ö
You donÆt have to have a gang mate and I wasnt thinking 2v1. I was pointing out no damage mod, no propulsion mod, and no tackle is not true. Saying the ships is useless as it has none is stupid. As it has some of that stuff. I donÆt solo apart from pre arranged battles which is why my setup is not a solo setup. When I spend 100% of my time in gangs why on earth would I fit as though I am solo?
I was thinking more 2v2 or small gang v small gang. I find 1v1 very rare. Never happens apart from pre arranged battles or pirates hunting miners for easy targets. Passive tanks work best in gangs due to massive bonusÆs they get.
ôThose two ships, assuming they're flying together with a plan, like your drake and his lame friend, are probably going to be using an ever more powerful combination, like a huginn and lachesis.ö
I donÆt fly Caldari ships, so no Drake. My point was Passive tanks are not useless as they are not 100% tanking, slow, no damage, no nothing else. I was only pointing out passive tanks dont have to use up 100% of slots on tanking.
Passive shield tanking guide click here |
Pottsey
Enheduanni Foundation
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Posted - 2007.11.12 18:15:00 -
[49]
Edited by: Pottsey on 12/11/2007 18:27:17
ôAnd it is somehow more effective than a armor setup? Have you actually compared a no-tackling, no-mwd armor tanker against that flying rock? Probably not.ö
Do you even bother to read my post? ItÆs not a flying rock that cannot move, it can fit tackling gear. I choose not to as itÆs not my job in my gang. ItÆs more effective then the amour version as it can fit more powerful weapons and have better range.
ôThe tackler would be ECMed and whoever you attack will just warp out.ö
Wait so if my target warps out and my target is the person doing ECM then my tackler is no longer locked down, what if my tackler locks him down first? If my target stays he is to focus on me dealing high damage. I have damage mods remember and the biggest battleship weapons fitted.
ôSure, and now that you have 3 lowslots used for damage mods, and 1 medslot used for a mwd (and an injector would be wise too), your Hyperion can't tank for crap.ö
With a web, microwarp, 2 damage mods I have over 23k hitpoints (without resistance) and 110 HP regen. How is that a crap tank? The hitpoints alone keep you alive with resistance for a while.
Passive shield tanking guide click here |
Liang Nuren
The Avalon Foundation
Knights Of Syndicate
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Posted - 2007.11.12 18:19:00 -
[50]
Originally by: Pottsey
ôSure, and now that you have 3 lowslots used for damage mods, and 1 medslot used for a mwd (and an injector would be wise too), your Hyperion can't tank for crap.ö
With a web, microwarp, 2 damage mods I have over 23k hitpoints (without resistance) and 110 HP regen. How is that a carp tank? The hitpoints alone keep you alive with resistance for a while.
Consider what a basic plate tank will get you - 100k hp, 3x damage mods, and cap/tackle/mwd/everything.
 It really is a carp tank. (ha ha, get the pun?)
Liang
--
Retired forum *****. Plz tell me to STFU.
Yarr? |
Pottsey
Enheduanni Foundation
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Posted - 2007.11.12 18:29:00 -
[51]
öConsider what a basic plate tank will get you - 100k hp, 3x damage mods, and cap/tackle/mwd/everything.ö
Can you show me this setup on a hyper? I donÆt see how it could all fit without downgrade the railguns or something along those lines. So you can get over 100 HP/s regen, lots of hitpoints and everything else the passive tank has?
Passive shield tanking guide click here |
Serilla
The Collective
Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2007.11.12 18:29:00 -
[52]
Originally by: Ms Belle
I find the point about uber passive tanks on caldari ships a little mute as in order to make an effective passive tank you give up all your mids/lows and rig slots.
If you don't inject for an armor tank (ie passive cap recharge) you end up using all your mids, lows and rig slots for your tank too.
__________________
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Matiaj
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Posted - 2007.11.12 18:37:00 -
[53]
Edited by: Matiaj on 12/11/2007 18:44:48
Originally by: Pottsey
With a web, microwarp, 2 damage mods I have over 23k hitpoints (without resistance) and 110 HP regen. How is that a carp tank? The hitpoints alone keep you alive with resistance for a while.
90k effective hp, with 110 hp peak regen? Yep, that's a crap tank.
A plated hyperion (not the best ship for the job) with 2 damage mods has 113k effective hp, can still fit a full rack of neutrons, and has three more medslots than you do. :/
Edit : lol, I thought you were speaking about 110 dps tanked, not 110 hp regen. 23k shield with 110hp regen? Are you not using any hardeners? This is getting ridiculous. -_-
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Pottsey
Enheduanni Foundation
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Posted - 2007.11.12 18:47:00 -
[54]
I normaly use Inv feild(s). There was 1 fitted to the setup.
Passive shield tanking guide click here |
Matiaj
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Posted - 2007.11.12 18:50:00 -
[55]
I can't get anywhere near your numbers without using implants. Care to share your setup?
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Pottsey
Enheduanni Foundation
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Posted - 2007.11.12 18:58:00 -
[56]
Implants are fine. Lets say 100mill max on implants, does that sound reasonable? I see no reason why you couldnÆt have the 5% repair speed implant.
Passive shield tanking guide click here |
dAn melax
Beyond Divinity Inc
Terra Incognita.
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Posted - 2007.11.12 20:20:00 -
[57]
Edited by: dAn melax on 12/11/2007 20:20:29
God ... stop whining and play the game ... adapt or die painfully
Play Hard. Go Pro. |
Graalum
Foundation
R0ADKILL
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Posted - 2007.11.12 20:22:00 -
[58]
Originally by: Wrayeth
Edited by: Wrayeth on 11/11/2007 22:36:30
LSEs are needed for other ships, so a nerf to them would be a very bad idea. The huginn, rapier, and rook, for instance, generally get by on a single LSE. Take that away and they'll instantly pop the moment just about anything shoots them.
P.S. WTF are you putting a shield tank on a hurricane? The ship isn't designed for it at all.
the vagacane?
Your signature graphic must reflect your ingame persona as per The Forum rules - Kreul Intentions ([email protected]) |
Graalum
Foundation
R0ADKILL
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Posted - 2007.11.12 20:32:00 -
[59]
Originally by: Pottsey
ôAnd the Nighthawk. Preventing Command Ships from fitting LSE II would destroy its ability to passive tank.ö
Caldari battlecruiser size ships where made to active tank not passive. Would it really hurt it to force it back to active tanking only like it was made for?
It was only an accident they could passive tank. Not a planed change.
but it was intended that gallentee be allowed to passive take?
Your signature graphic must reflect your ingame persona as per The Forum rules - Kreul Intentions ([email protected]) |
Pottsey
Enheduanni Foundation
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Posted - 2007.11.12 22:13:00 -
[60]
ôbut it was intended that gallentee be allowed to passive take? ö
Well originally they could passive shield tank but not amour tank and 3 of the 4 shield recharge modules are low slot based.
Passive shield tanking guide click here |
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