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Atsuko Ratu
Caldari
Advanced Logistics
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Posted - 2007.11.12 22:26:00 -
[61]
 Originally by: Pottsey
ôThe tackler would be ECMed and whoever you attack will just warp out.ö
Wait so if my target warps out and my target is the person doing ECM then my tackler is no longer locked down, what if my tackler locks him down first? If my target stays he is to focus on me dealing high damage. I have damage mods remember and the biggest battleship weapons fitted.
Well I was trying to be fair and not ECM you, since it would totally destroy your setup (not to mention that a falcon could easly ECM both you and your tackler, if he has the right ECMs, which he does cause we're using the perfect examples here right?) If it was simply you and a tackler, you'd have no real chance of ever winning against the standard gank setup with a ECM frig with him.
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Ulstan
Caldari
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Posted - 2007.11.13 02:03:00 -
[62]
There's nothing wrong with the LSE's fitting requirements, it's just that there is no battleship sized shield extender module.
Shield tanking already suffers enough compared to armor tanking, due to the fact that fitting the necessary web/mwd/warp scrambler severely impacts your ability to tank. It certainly doesn't need to be made any worse.
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Pottsey
Enheduanni Foundation
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Posted - 2007.11.13 07:02:00 -
[63]
ôWell I was trying to be fair and not ECM you, since it would totally destroy your setup (not to mention that a falcon could easly ECM both you and your tackler, ......ö
Bit of a moot point really as in that situation the active tank would be totally destroyed just as much as the passive tank. How is that an advantage to the active tank version of my ship? Also I fail to see how me in a gank setup with an ECM frig friend is that different from someone else in an active tank setup and a ECM gank friend. You cannot have everything you have to choose something to lose even if your an active tank or passive tank.
This is not something I would do but it would be very easy for my Domi PvP ship to fit anti ECM module(s) without much impact on the ship. DonÆt think I could git anti ECM onto my Hyper though not without lowering the turrets down to 350mm. There is no reason a passive tank cannot fit anti EW.
Passive shield tanking guide click here |
Miss Ion
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Posted - 2007.11.13 07:22:00 -
[64]
sigh EFT reers its ugly head..look none of you seems to be taking sig radius into account when discussing LSE II.that leads me to believe at least some of you arm chair pilots have no clue as to what realy happens with "passive tanks". i've been there done that..i didn't sit for hrs fiddling with EFT to make a point..
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Pottsey
Enheduanni Foundation
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Posted - 2007.11.13 07:33:00 -
[65]
I find once your sig goes over a certain point it makes no real difference. I have 485 base sig. I hardly thinking going to 525 or what ever it is will make much difference.
Passive shield tanking guide click here |
Tarron Sarek
Gallente
Endica Enterprises
Alternative Realities
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Posted - 2007.11.13 11:13:00 -
[66]
Edited by: Tarron Sarek on 13/11/2007 11:15:57
Stacking penalty for Cap Power Relays and Shield Power Relays.
There, problem solved.
Decent non extreme setups will hardly suffer, if at all.
Regarding sig radus - Sig radius is a laughable penalty to begin with.
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- Balance is power, guard it well -
Please stop using the word 'nerf'
Nothing spells 'incompetence' or 'don't take me serious' like those four letters |
Laughing Mime
Vale Heavy Industries
Molotov Coalition
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Posted - 2007.11.13 12:04:00 -
[67]
I'm quite puzzled as to why you think 1 small smartbomb is good for drone defense. It will take a republic fleet small SB over 10 minutes to kill a myrm's Ogre IIs assuming he doesn't scoop.
But then again you think artillery is a valid weapon choice for the Harbinger, continue playing EFT.
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Ipos
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Posted - 2007.11.13 12:35:00 -
[68]
Seriously, how daft are some of you? Why would you want to nerf the Drake's tank? Remove that and there's no reason to fly it at all, sure it's a 30mil ship with a BS tank but when you toss in thoose purgers you're suddenly looking at a very different cost. Drop the tank on the drake and it would need a complete redesign altogether.
The Drake is a gang ship, not a solo ship and in gangs there are many just as viable BC's as the drake (myrm and cane beeing two) that ALSO excel at solo PvP.
- Yes, please nerf Caldari.
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Tarron Sarek
Gallente
Endica Enterprises
Alternative Realities
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Posted - 2007.11.15 02:42:00 -
[69]
Seriously, isn't it unnecessary to call names?
The Drake can have decent DPS. You just have to fit BCS instead of Shield Power Relays in the lows..
It will never be the most damaging BC in the game, but it can do up to 589 DPS with a decent PvP fitting, still tanking more than most, if not all other BCs with a dmg fit.
___________________________________
- Balance is power, guard it well -
Please stop using the word 'nerf'
Nothing spells 'incompetence' or 'don't take me serious' like those four letters |
E Vile
Fifth Exiled Legion
SMASH Alliance
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Posted - 2007.11.15 03:02:00 -
[70]
If anything add Extra Large Shield Extenders for BS. Quit crying nerf because passive shields are not overpowered. Besides, they already nerfed them.
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VB Sarge
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Posted - 2007.11.15 03:14:00 -
[71]
I still dont' see the issue. Sounds almost like the people crying to nerf the Drake tank are the ones not saying a word about myrmi or cane dps and tank. And everyone hates amarr anyways...
Granted the Cane isn't the #1 choice for dps (might be after the patch) and the Myrmi loses damage past close range, the fact that they can fit gank and tank at the same time and still be effective is a testiment to how strong they are. Sure, they might not be able to go afk while tanking sentry guns, but they can sure as hell kill faster.
LSE's aren't the issue here, it's people thinking EFT answers all questions, and like to put numbers together that really don't amount to anything. Your tank and DPS numbers are skewed in EFT by an unseen variable that all of you supposed EFT ninja's are missing... it's called reality, or at least as it pertains to EVE. Fly the ship, and I guarentee you wont see those numbers as concrete facts anymore.
Enjoy undocking, it's actually kind of fun.
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Shiodome
Caldari
Black Sea Industries
Cult of War
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Posted - 2007.11.15 07:03:00 -
[72]
what the hell are people on about anyway, has everyone forgotten the drake has already recently been nerfed? (shield recharge). takes a lot of hard work and thought to make a drake useful in combat. compared to the "engage single brain cell - win" ships some other races have it's a long way off needing any kind of nerf for balance reasons.
i mean come on, who seriously has a problem killing a drake anyway? if you come across a drake, it's got zero chance of escaping before your friend turns up, then it dies, with virtually no risk to most attackers... yeah, nerf that mofo hard.
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today i am this cool:
[uncool]================[*]====[cool]
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Andrue
Amarr
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Posted - 2007.11.15 07:58:00 -
[73]
Originally by: Pottsey
ôAnd the Nighthawk. Preventing Command Ships from fitting LSE II would destroy its ability to passive tank.ö
Caldari battlecruiser size ships where made to active tank not passive. Would it really hurt it to force it back to active tanking only like it was made for?
It was only an accident they could passive tank. Not a planed change.
Yes it would hurt. It would remove the Nighthawk's one saving grace IMO. It's damage output isn't too hot but at least right now it's a relaxing way to amble through missions. Not a major bread winner (unless you really push the skills) but less stressful.
Destroy that ability and a lot of NH pilots will give up and switch to a CNR (and what happens to CCP's desired variety then?) or another command ship.
--
(Battle hardened industrialist)
[Brackley, UK]
My budgie can say "ploppy bottom". You have been warned. |
Bentula
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Posted - 2007.11.15 09:07:00 -
[74]
Originally by: Shiodome
Edited by: Shiodome on 15/11/2007 07:09:09
what the hell are people on about anyway, has everyone forgotten the drake has already recently been nerfed? (shield recharge).
No the drakes shieldrecharge didnt get nerfed, all BC sized ships got nerfed including even the CS afaik.
Also pottsey is correct that passive tanking is a gallente speciality. Unlike what people think passive tanking requires more lowslots than medslots while still keeping a critical number of medslots. And the gallente slot distribution is best suited for this, try to passive tank a raven and compare it to passive tanked domi to see what i mean.
Also the reason gallente where born passive tanks is droneships. Gallente ships could fit undersized guns or nos in highslots to afford the huge PG drain of extenders while still doing decent dps due to drones. The only caldari ships that compare are those with a resist bonus, yet not even that is enough sometimes.
What i dislike about extender setups is the fact that they have such a low fitting that people can fit huge buffertanks while still fitting largest weapons. Anyone who ever tried fitting plates on a harbinger will know what i talk about. People just look at the tankable dps and say its not that good if want any tackling. So what? Armortanks have fitted buffertanks with 0 tankable dps for years.
I think ships should either have high hp buffer but bad tank, or good tank but bad buffer. And if ships are so bad that a passive tank is the only good setup, then that only shows that there is something wrong with those ships. No ship should be forced to fit a passive tank to be able to compete, for many reasons already laid out by the people defending the passive tanked drake.
Im not saying nerf the drake or any other passive tanking ship, im saying those ships need to have a choice. Sandbox and stuff, you remember?
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N1fty
Amarr
Galactic Shipyards Inc
HUZZAH FEDERATION
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Posted - 2007.11.15 09:29:00 -
[75]
Edited by: N1fty on 15/11/2007 09:31:29
Filling your medslots with shield extenders makes you about as threatening as a dead kitten.
You can't tackle anyone, so your only use is as described above, PvE and PvP baiting. I'm not sure I see whats 'wrong'.
Just because you post up a bunch of EFT numbers and say how overpowered these ships are, doesn't mean you don't sacrifice a lot to get that kind of tanking.
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Shiodome
Caldari
Black Sea Industries
Cult of War
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Posted - 2007.11.15 09:52:00 -
[76]
quit comparing ships and going "x ship has this, but y ship doesn't; therefore unbalanced" and instead look at how the ships work ingame, where it matters.
drake:
+tank
-manouverabilty - gank - tackle
any people are saying nerf the tank? okaaaaay 
you seriously think the drake would be better/'fairer' if you took away the HP buffer, and left if with 75%-80% resists, no gank, no speed. just lol. get your head out of EFT and the forums and look at the ships in the context of how they fly in real situations.
_____________________________________
today i am this cool:
[uncool]================[*]====[cool]
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LiMu Bai
RIMTECH
Hydra Alliance
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Posted - 2007.11.15 10:02:00 -
[77]
A fully tanked Drake can nothing, but tank. DPS, Agility, Speed are really bad. All Midslot-dependant options like Sensorboosting, E-War or tackling also are no way for a Drake. It also cannot regain its cap, due to the ultra-low recharge rate... So in a decent fight with alot of warping between Safespots, for instance, will cap-out a Drake really fast. A Drake with standart setup (tank), is just a horrible PvP-ship.
So stop complaining.
[url=http://hydraalliance.org/kb/?a=pilot_detail&plt_id=17878]
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Xaldor
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Posted - 2007.11.15 12:04:00 -
[78]
This thread is wrong on so many levels I don't know where to begin, the fact a Myrm can passive shield tank comparable to a Drake is probably the major reason the nerf was incoming. Drake can be built to be a brick wall but it is hopeless at anything else.
Now if you are not an idiot, you would be armour tanking a Myrm and while you wont get the same kind of tanking ability with T1/T2 modules you can get a sustainable 500+ tank allowing you to fit in ALL the PvP toys into the midslots.
I just threw a pre-nerf Myrm together without a great deal of thought but it has a 500+dps tank, inflicts about 600dps and has a MWD, Web, Scrambler and 3 neuts. It doesn't matter if something has a better tank than what you can dps, whatever it is it is relying on cap to tank well, even if its a passive drake because you eliminate it's cap and it can't run invulnerability fields your 5 T2 Ogres will sodomize a Drake with a basic tank.
This was the fundamental problem with the Myrm design. Had a ****load of mid slots for an armour tanker allowing you to utilise cap boosters and the PvP toys, it didn't need ANY guns at all for dps so you can load up with nos/neuts to just cripple the opposition. It was just too good, too much damage, too versatile in PvP. It was just light years better than any other BC.
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Bentula
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Posted - 2007.11.15 12:35:00 -
[79]
Originally by: LiMu Bai
A fully tanked Drake can nothing, but tank. DPS, Agility, Speed are really bad. All Midslot-dependant options like Sensorboosting, E-War or tackling also are no way for a Drake. It also cannot regain its cap, due to the ultra-low recharge rate... So in a decent fight with alot of warping between Safespots, for instance, will cap-out a Drake really fast. A Drake with standart setup (tank), is just a horrible PvP-ship.
So stop complaining.
Come trinity half the ceptors have 29km warp scram range, gallente EW frigs surpass 35km afaik, and gallente recons go past 40km. I dunno about you, but i could think of a few ways where a heavily tanked ship that does constant dps and isnt affected by cap much could be handy.
Again i dont really have a problem with passive tanked drakes, but saying lacking dps and speed makes it bad for pvp purposes is wrong. It simply means you have to create situations where the enemy cant run away, while still being in the drakes weapon range by other means.
Just an example:
MWD fitted passive drake, 1 damage mod. Does about 300 dps with kinetic at 80 km range. Lets say it flys in tandem with a speedtanking keres(gallente EW, up to 36km scramrange with t2). Now the keres scouts for targets, tackles them, and the drake warps in at >50km and tries to keep that distance.
Overly powerful combo? No. But very safe. Keres is a frigate keeping over 30km distance and can leg it pretty fast if something goes wrong, and the prealigned drake at 50km can do the same. Sure other BCs can project 300dps over 50km aswell, but they dont have a 400dps tank while doing so, and are likely in a dedicated sniperfit ontop. Worst case for this combo is something warping ontop of the drake that puts out quite alot more than 400dps, is faster than a mwding drake(ok, thats not really excluding much), and cant be taken out/forced off by 300dps.
And in all fairness that would have taken out any other rangesetup BC aswell.
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