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Caffeine Junkie
Caldari Veni Vidi Vici. SMASH Alliance
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Posted - 2007.11.12 16:10:00 -
[1]
Edited by: Caffeine Junkie on 12/11/2007 16:12:38 Whats the point in having 4 different races if they all can achieve the same thing in slightly different ways.
One of the things that really attracted me to this game (years ago) was the variety and options within the game. Now its getting closer and closer to not mattering what race you fly, they can all do the same thing.
No one race should be better than another but they should be different, bringing different tactics into play, and I mean more than just 5% more or less DPS, 5% more or less Alpha strike etc.
I can appreciate it will be very difficult stop one race being over-powered and to an extend this is what CCP are trying to achieve.
---------Different point --------------
I also think Caldari should have their own weapon system (not rails, lasers or projectiles) and missiles should be equally usable by all races. Plus missiles should be like missiles really are, big, expensive, slow firing and very effective. Meaning firing a missile from that last high slot on your Megathron is something you decide to do for tactical reasons (like bombing in a SB), not just lock and F1-F8.
EDIT: Typos
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Der Komissar
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Posted - 2007.11.12 16:44:00 -
[2]
I think the dev's might be going for "fair" pew pew...
Which is a bad thing. Fair is bad.
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Alitha Maru
Minmatar Hidden Agenda Deep Space Engineering
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Posted - 2007.11.12 17:04:00 -
[3]
Edited by: Alitha Maru on 12/11/2007 17:04:57
Originally by: Caffeine Junkie Whats the point in having 4 different races if they all can achieve the same thing in slightly different ways. <snip>
I couldn't agree with you more. EVE becomes more and more blend as time goes by. When I play games, I usually prefer to play the underdogs. Which basicly means you got crap, and need to do your best with it. EVE had many such ships, and it was really fun to find a setup and actually make it work. Or just think out of the box and use it for something completely different.
Same goes for races, now all races should be equal in most things. Which is pure crap if you ask me. Minmatar is clearly the underdog of all the races, which makes them a tad harder to play at low skill. Which is fun! My first character was a Gallente, he's a jack of all trades and I play him some times to try out new things as he got more skillpoints than me. But I started this char to get more of a challenge. I decided I could only use Minmatar ships, plus Amarr ships up until Cruisers (as a roleplay thing, read my bio )
It was bloody well hard for a very long time, but now my skills are a bit on the good side and I can do any lvl4 mission in my Typhoon for example. But it took work, and time. Soon any race you start with will have the same strategic value, and ease of play.
I can't but wonder if this is a move to appeal to a broader player base, and by that I mean people who enjoy playing WoW and SWG, yes. I've played both myself, for a very very short time, and I am never ever going to reactivate those subs. EVE is my flavor.
WoW and SWG are simplistic MMOs, EVE is complex. Very complex. But that is what makes it so special, but it won't attract the big subscription numbers and thus the big money. So if they dumb it down "a little" (sarcasm detected), they might just attract those kind of players too.
Well, I have no idea, but I hate to see that happen. Just my 5 cents. And as the OP said, pretty please with sugar on top, unbalance it instead.
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CFC Fodder
Gallente R.E.C.O.N. Black-Out
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Posted - 2007.11.18 08:23:00 -
[4]
I hate to say so, but yeah, unbalance it a bit. So what if x player is better because he has one race trained? We can always choose as players, to train any race we want to, simultaneously, actually balancing the game in that respect (though it's damned hard to train roughly equally in all 4 races, I'll say).
EVE is getting bland. Complexity allows for more immersion within a race/racial ideal. Believe it or not, I think this is great- corporations and alliances will *want* certain racial pilots as they bring some balance to their side of the fence.
So, signed, signed, signed.
http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=635106&page=1Do your part, stand up f |
Samurai XII
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Posted - 2007.11.18 08:59:00 -
[5]
What we need is VARIATION.
Those days everyone fly's a Vagabond, a curse or a lychesis.
That and everyone fits damps....
BORRINGGGGGGGGGGGGG! ______________________ Just another cool alt. |
F'nog
Amarr Celestial Horizon Corp. Valainaloce
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Posted - 2007.11.18 10:14:00 -
[6]
On the one hand, I agree with you. On the other, your ideas about missiles are bit... dated. In the future, shouldn't missiles perform a bit better? I'm all for adding variety, but making them into a fixed system is a bit limiting.
I'm tired, and should go to sleep, but I think you're a bit short-sighted.
Originally by: Karen Serasia Because some idiot decided to sell an internet connection to me and didn't think of the consequences.
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Freddy Kuger
Snakes in a Pod.
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Posted - 2007.11.18 11:34:00 -
[7]
Edited by: Freddy Kuger on 18/11/2007 11:34:34 Add a new type of gun...... right Well let's see how many possible options there are: 1. big gun firing an object...... nah we got those 2. big gun firing energy...... nope we got those too 3. big gun firing energized object maybe? ...... oh balls, we got those aswell >_< 4. ..... uhm.... well maybe an explosive device flying towards the target...... oh wait, not good enough for you 5. ................................... yeah nothing comes to mind, guess there's no other option anymore <_<
Next thread pls
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Trigos Trilobi
Man-Eating Village Idiots
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Posted - 2007.11.18 12:09:00 -
[8]
I think some of you make the mistake of thinking that balance is the main culprit for too little variance, when in actuality it's quite the opposite, without balance there indeed cannot be variance either. If some ships are clearly better than others, then people will fly those ships and rest will not see any use. If all ships are competitive, people have more valid options to choose from.
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Lothros Andastar
Gallente Imperium Forces United Freemen Alliance
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Posted - 2007.11.18 13:17:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Caffeine Junkie
I also think Caldari should have their own weapon system (not rails, lasers or projectiles) and missiles should be equally usable by all races.
I just want to point out you have not idea about each races Primary And Secondary weapon systems do you?
Caldari are Missles and Rails, Gallente are Blasters (yes this is their PRIMARY weapon system) and Drones, Minmatar are Projectiles and Missles and Amarr are Lasers and Missles
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James Lyrus
Lyrus Associates Enuma Elish.
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Posted - 2007.11.18 18:46:00 -
[10]
Balance is an esoteric concept, and not one that's all that important. Different capabilities are fine.
However there should always be a reason to fly a specific ship - having any one ship _completely_ outclassed, is also bad, IMO. Doesn't have to be the best ship at something, but at the same time being 'just not worth using' is a problem IMO.
And there should always be multiracial countermeasures to tactics.
I mean, it'd suck if only caldari ships could fit ECCMs, for example. (this goes double for speed fits) -- Crane needs more grid 249km locking? GMP and TNP |
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OneSock
Crown Industries
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Posted - 2007.11.18 19:14:00 -
[11]
I agree. What is this business about all ships of the same class must do exact same DPS ? Are CCP going to implement arena combat where only same class ship can compete ?
In reality, in Eve, you never know who you are going to meet and it's your responsibility who you choose to engage. If you can't beat him, run, or don't engage in the first place. Don't whine because he doesn't have the same DPS as you.
I can imagine the chat in Local after Trinity, "I'm sorry you can't shoot me until you fly the same class ship with the same DPS."
Using ships outside their usual roles put a bit of spice into eve. Using a drake for a tank rather than a battleship, using a myrm for DPS against another battleship, or a solo Eos or speed vaga.
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Incantare
Caldari Kernel of War Tau Ceti Federation
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Posted - 2007.11.18 23:27:00 -
[12]
Balance doesn't mean make everything the same, it means make everything as good overall. That means in some situations a specific ship will be better than another in the same class, and vice versa.
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Jesnen
Amarr Murder-Death-Kill
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Posted - 2007.11.19 18:59:00 -
[13]
Eve has gone communistic imo, if eve is supposed to be a reflection of real life then the rich and skilled should be able to dominate others. All of this balancing is for the weak of stomach :)
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Lucifers Advocate
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Posted - 2007.11.19 19:43:00 -
[14]
A. Not every ship class of every race can do the same thing. --Case and point: Please compare caldari to minmatar. Two races aren't even close in abilities.
B. For argument's sake, consider Jovian. Just last month one snuck out and caused all kinds of havoc while being a pirate for hire. Honestly man, it takes several Dreads, Motherships, and tacklers to bring down a Jovian FRIGATE.
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Perry
Amarr The X-Trading Company Mostly Harmless
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Posted - 2007.11.19 19:59:00 -
[15]
Edited by: Perry on 19/11/2007 19:59:33 The results of unbalance can be reviewed in the latest eco-blogs.
Ravens all over the belts and missions, Vagabonds ganking stuff left and right untouchable, and Bestowers beeing the most popular amarr ship.
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DarkStar251
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Posted - 2007.11.21 23:08:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Lothros Andastar Amarr are Lasers and Missles
What?
Show me a tech 1 Amarr missile ship.
The only "missile ships" are the Khanid abominations that make no sense and do not fir the amarr race at all, tbh its like caldari having half their tech 2 ships use Projectiles.
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BigWhale
Gallente
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Posted - 2007.11.22 08:23:00 -
[17]
Anyone played Starcraft? That what variety is. Three races that are completely different, with completely diferent 'primary' weapons with different specials and tactics. All of them practically balanced in a perfection.
Something like that would be interesting. Unlikely to happen in eve. This would need careful planning in the beginning and a lot of initial design.
Ok, maybe different new non-human based rases could be introduced. That could work.
-- R, U, Y are letters...
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Romulan Dominiae
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Posted - 2007.11.22 08:38:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Freddy Kuger Edited by: Freddy Kuger on 18/11/2007 11:34:34 Add a new type of gun...... right Well let's see how many possible options there are: 1. big gun firing an object...... nah we got those 2. big gun firing energy...... nope we got those too 3. big gun firing energized object maybe? ...... oh balls, we got those aswell >_< 4. ..... uhm.... well maybe an explosive device flying towards the target...... oh wait, not good enough for you 5. ................................... yeah nothing comes to mind, guess there's no other option anymore <_<
Next thread pls
mr fantasy ... |
Matthew
Caldari BloodStar Technologies
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Posted - 2007.11.22 09:07:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Caffeine Junkie Edited by: Caffeine Junkie on 12/11/2007 16:32:21
Whats the point in having 4 different races if they all can achieve the same thing in slightly different ways.
What's the point in having 4 different races if one is so much better that there's no point using the other three?
Note that this is still applicable if you make the races good at different things, but consider them "balanced" as a whole. Everyone will just train the race that are best at their primary activity, and it just leads to less flexibility by increasing the cross-training needed to be effective at a different activity.
Originally by: Caffeine Junkie One of the things that really attracted me to this game (years ago) was the variety and options within the game. Now its getting closer and closer to not mattering what race you fly, they can all do the same thing.
No one race should be better than another but they should be different, bringing different tactics into play, and I mean more than just 5% more or less DPS, 5% more or less Alpha strike etc.
So you want no race to be better than another, but you want them to bring different tactics into play. How does that not fit your undesired model of "they can all achieve the same thing in slightly different ways"?
When you boil it right down, it doesn't really matter whether you're weapons are turrets, drones, missiles, or pink fluffy bunnies. In the end, you either have the DPS, or you don't. Similarly, it doesn't matter if you tank using shields, armor, hull, speed, ECM or duct tape, in the end you either have the ability to withstand/avoid incoming damage, or you don't.
Originally by: BigWhale Anyone played Starcraft? That what variety is. Three races that are completely different, with completely diferent 'primary' weapons with different specials and tactics. All of them practically balanced in a perfection.
The big difference between balance in Starcraft and eve is teamwork and cross-training. In Starcraft, you're one race, and you're stuck with the options of that race for the duration of the game. In Eve, you can cross-train to different races, or pull together some mates trained in different races and cherry pick each races strength. This ability to cherry pick means that you'll only get people taking the stronger option for each job. If the other races alternatives are not equally good, they will be very underused (and only used at all due to the barrier of skill cross-training). ------- There is no magic Wand of Fixing, and it is not powered by forum whines. |
Futher Bezluden
Minmatar ORIGIN SYSTEMS Atlas Alliance
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Posted - 2007.11.22 09:10:00 -
[20]
Caldari have their own weapon system? Missiles for all???
OMFG, that almost seems decent.
Give the Caldari Mass Drivers that do primarily Kinetic and a bit of therm, tiny bit of EM for their ammo. Then the scripted TD's can be the FOTM. THUKKER -Be Paranoid
Skeet Skeet L33t |
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Eleana Tomelac
Gallente Through the Looking Glass
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Posted - 2007.11.22 09:21:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Futher Bezluden Caldari have their own weapon system? Missiles for all???
OMFG, that almost seems decent.
Give the Caldari Mass Drivers that do primarily Kinetic and a bit of therm, tiny bit of EM for their ammo. Then the scripted TD's can be the FOTM.
Mass drivers? Isn't this just how they described the railguns? -- Pocket drone carriers (tm) enthousiast !
Say hello to my tiny friends ! |
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