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CoRrUpTiGe	Posted - 2007.11.19 19:41:00 - [91] Originally by: MOS DEF I think it is very entertaining that they fix lowsec motherships by breaking lowsec entirely. They simply can't get something fixed by breaking at least 2 more things. It's a shame. The players have the tools to do everything they need to do in low sec. But with out of game whines and nerfage, its *easier* to just put scripted hics in Eve. Nevermind that, as you mentioned, it breaks low sec completely by introducing a supercap tackler without a counter. If you actually MUST have hics in low sec as supercap tacklers, why not just apply the rule for "immobilization and nonassistance" to them there as well. No ONE in the CCP dev staff wants or even cares to look and the continued overpowered nature of speed tanks in Eve. Not to mention the sacred cow that nanotactics seem to still be. But it's okay lobotomize caps and especially supercaps without a single isk of compensation for those who stand to lose tens of billions of isk in net worth to those changes.
Nomakai Delateriel Amarr Delictum 23216	Posted - 2007.11.19 19:59:00 - [92] Personally I don't think this will be such a big deal for low-sec Blockade runners. WCSs will be dead of course. But the danger from Interdictors is that they can jam you without having to lock you, it's a big fat passive anti-warping field. That's a threat for any ship in the game. Against a HIC in it's still just a matter of doing the "warp, cloak, laugh" routine and 2.8 seconds later you're off. Still no different from the way it was. It will take a freaking miracle for them to actually be able to (in 2.8 seconds, or a bit more if you're not Istabbing/nanoing): 1. Decloak you (at LEAST 2 seconds unless they're lucky). 2. Lock you after you've been decloaked (which means reaction time+locking speed). What this DOES nerf is the ability to move Battlecruisers and Battleships in low-sec (or in high-sec when you're at war? Can you use that disruptor in high-sec?). Previously it has always been fairly easy to put 6-8 stabs in the lows when you're just travelling. You couldn't fight, but on the other hand you could get past pretty much all casual gatecamps. After the hicks go live you won't be able to do that anymore, which will be a fairly large blow to small low-sec groups (the type that can't gather a kill-team at any given time of the day). ______________________________________________ -You can never earn my respect, only lose it. It's given freely, and only grudgingly retracted when necessary.
Nasair	Posted - 2007.11.19 20:05:00 - [93] Lol at the people saying a cruiser class vessel is unkillable/unshakable.
Gamesguy Amarr D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.11.19 23:17:00 - [94] Originally by: Ottman well combine that ship with huggin and ceptor means insta death for transport ships, scramed and webbed to hell, even mwd dont work then. means that was it with blocade running. MfG ottman How is the HIC any different from a lachesis with 8 points of scram? And btw, huginns dont lock fast enough to stop blockade runners. I've ran plenty of huginn camps in the past.
Arkady Sadik Gradient Electus Matari	Posted - 2007.11.19 23:54:00 - [95] Originally by: Gamesguy How is the HIC any different from a lachesis with 8 points of scram? You mean 7 points? As said above: - The HIC doesn't have to gimp the rest of the fitting because it's not using 7 mid slots, but one high-slot - Hence, can fit sensor boosters for plenty of lock speed, which the Lachesis can't - Hence, can fit an MWD and actually keep the blockade runner scrambled when it tries to run away from the tackler, - and hence, can fit a tank that can actually last very nicely against sentry fire even in small gangs As also said above, this doesn't mean the end of the world, just that low-sec has become even more risky, which makes it even less attractive. Something that low-sec really didn't need. (And for 0.0, it means you can bubble a gate, and then get the HIC to scram the blockade runner who can't just MWD out of the bubble to escape like it could with a dictor, because the HIC can keep up and just keep its scram on the target. No need to use the bubble mode in 0.0, really. Your only option when a HIC is present is to MWD back to the gate. Rename the ship class "blockade survivor", please. But I don't mind this change to 0.0 too much, it's not really a problem.)
Gamesguy Amarr D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.11.20 00:07:00 - [96] Edited by: Gamesguy on 20/11/2007 00:08:23 Originally by: Arkady Sadik Originally by: Gamesguy How is the HIC any different from a lachesis with 8 points of scram? You mean 7 points? As said above: - The HIC doesn't have to gimp the rest of the fitting because it's not using 7 mid slots, but one high-slot - Hence, can fit sensor boosters for plenty of lock speed, which the Lachesis can't - Hence, can fit an MWD and actually keep the blockade runner scrambled when it tries to run away from the tackler, - and hence, can fit a tank that can actually last very nicely against sentry fire even in small gangs As also said above, this doesn't mean the end of the world, just that low-sec has become even more risky, which makes it even less attractive. Something that low-sec really didn't need. (And for 0.0, it means you can bubble a gate, and then get the HIC to scram the blockade runner who can't just MWD out of the bubble to escape like it could with a dictor, because the HIC can keep up and just keep its scram on the target. No need to use the bubble mode in 0.0, really. Your only option when a HIC is present is to MWD back to the gate. Rename the ship class "blockade survivor", please. But I don't mind this change to 0.0 too much, it's not really a problem.) ' Wrong, I mean 8 points of scram. Warp scramblers have 18km range on a lachesis, AND it can fit 3 sensor boosters, and I'm pretty sure it has better scan resolution than HICs. In addition, You won't be mwding anywhere with a huginn webbing you, if there is no huginn, nothing stops you from mwding back to the gate. As for sentry fire, a bs or two can easilly remote rep the recons. In addition, MY blockade runner warps as fast as a shuttle. I've never ever had even an inty lock me before I warp. So I don't know wtf kind of fitting you're putting on your blockade runner(plates?) that lets a cruiser sized vessel lock it before it warps. And the cloak trick is alive and well. So in conclusion. Idiots who don't know how to fit blockade runners will have a problem with heavy dictors, people with a brain will not, just like how we dont even against triple sensor boosted lachesis with 8 points of scram(I happen to own one of those, and you cannot lock a well setup blockade runner before it warps).
Adam Weishaupt Minmatar Pyrrhus Sicarii The Church.	Posted - 2007.11.20 02:12:00 - [97] Originally by: Arkady Sadik This changes a few things, not just for blockade runners. Blockade Runners will obviously be affected. Currently, a BR can just warp out of most low-sec gate camps. "Oh, gate camp warp" - with this change, a BR will have to check whether there's a HIC among the ships, and if so, act as if there are quite a lot of inties among them (the MWD/cloak thing). As this is now getting more and more of a requirement for the BR, please consider giving them a pg bonus to actually be able to fit one as a standard fit, without having to fill the lows with fitting mods. This.
Theron Gyrow Gradient Electus Matari	Posted - 2007.11.20 07:10:00 - [98] Originally by: Gamesguy Wrong, I mean 8 points of scram. Warp scramblers have 18km range on a lachesis Could you please confirm that you see no difference between a 18km scram and a 30km scram? -- Gradient forum
Niffetin Gallente CONsordium Infinate	Posted - 2007.11.20 08:21:00 - [99] Edited by: Niffetin on 20/11/2007 08:23:17 I have used 4x Domination Warp Scrambler + 3x Sensor Booster II Lachesis as lowsec tackler and it works like a charm and can stop anything from warping except a fully stabbed Armageddon <.< WTS: Armageddon / Void L / Mobile Large Warp Disruptor
Nomme Mugen Shipyards	Posted - 2007.11.20 08:38:00 - [100] Its simple all that needs to be done for low-sec is to put in Covops Blockade runners,everything else would most likely be combat have no stabs and be tackled anyway. 0.0 is 0.0 and I have no comment on that.
Niffetin Gallente CONsordium Infinate	Posted - 2007.11.20 08:40:00 - [101] There is still noway to catch you if you use the mwd+cloak trick in lowsec. WTS: Armageddon / Void L / Mobile Large Warp Disruptor
Gamesguy Amarr D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.11.20 09:36:00 - [102] Originally by: Theron Gyrow Originally by: Gamesguy Wrong, I mean 8 points of scram. Warp scramblers have 18km range on a lachesis Could you please confirm that you see no difference between a 18km scram and a 30km scram? Can you please confirm faction scram costs pennies?
Nomme Mugen Shipyards	Posted - 2007.11.20 09:46:00 - [103] In context of this discussion thread,with a 30km infinite point scram and v.fast locking times there will be. I'm curious as to see exactly how the Pirate community takes to these new ships,but if they do decide to camp low-sec gates harder,and in larger gang numbers,you can be sure a blockade runner with an improved cloak isn't going to cut it anymore.
Futher Bezluden Minmatar ORIGIN SYSTEMS Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2007.11.20 09:47:00 - [104] Edited by: Futher Bezluden on 20/11/2007 09:50:28 Scripted HIC Bubbler should only affect Capitals or low-sec gate camps are going to be seriously overpowered. Would be the equivalent of being able to fire the interdiction probe at a target like a missile so only shuts down the target's warp drive. Very bad idea to make the HIC bubbler focus affect any ship. Keep it to capital drive disruption only or you'll have Onyx/Broadswords being even more overpowered and low-sec become a no-man's land. The warp dis field can only be used in 0.0, the focus can be used in 1.0 to 0.1 space but you have to lock the target for the module to work. Will be very interesting to see the first 40 man onyx/broadsword camp with all their bubbles running. THUKKER -Be Paranoid Skeet Skeet L33t
Gamesguy Amarr D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.11.20 10:56:00 - [105] Originally by: Futher Bezluden Edited by: Futher Bezluden on 20/11/2007 09:50:28 Scripted HIC Bubbler should only affect Capitals or low-sec gate camps are going to be seriously overpowered. Would be the equivalent of being able to fire the interdiction probe at a target like a missile so only shuts down the target's warp drive. Very bad idea to make the HIC bubbler focus affect any ship. Keep it to capital drive disruption only or you'll have Onyx/Broadswords being even more overpowered and low-sec become a no-man's land. The warp dis field can only be used in 0.0, the focus can be used in 1.0 to 0.1 space but you have to lock the target for the module to work. Will be very interesting to see the first 40 man onyx/broadsword camp with all their bubbles running. You DO have to lock to use the focused mode, its basically an infinite warp scram. Which is no different from a lachesis with some ridiculous number of points, neither one is gonna be able to lock a blockade runner before it warps.
Theron Gyrow Gradient Electus Matari	Posted - 2007.11.20 11:12:00 - [106] Originally by: Gamesguy Originally by: Theron Gyrow Originally by: Gamesguy Wrong, I mean 8 points of scram. Warp scramblers have 18km range on a lachesis Could you please confirm that you see no difference between a 18km scram and a 30km scram? Can you please confirm faction scram costs pennies? What faction scram? The scripted HIC scram will have a range of 30km at max skills unless I am mistaken. -- Gradient forum
I SoStoned	Posted - 2007.11.20 12:10:00 - [107] Originally by: CCP Mindstar * When the focusing script is loaded, the disruptor works like a regular warp disruptor, however it ignores the warp core strength of the target ship and will scramble anything. Uhhhh, okay? What does this mean? That no matter how many stabs a ship fits, this thing will lock it down, period, as long as it can keep up (as it has no idiot speed limitation in that mode)? http://www.voogru.com/images/signature/farmers.jpg
Alex Harumichi Gallente Gradient Electus Matari	Posted - 2007.11.20 12:51:00 - [108] Originally by: I SoStoned Originally by: CCP Mindstar * When the focusing script is loaded, the disruptor works like a regular warp disruptor, however it ignores the warp core strength of the target ship and will scramble anything. Uhhhh, okay? What does this mean? That no matter how many stabs a ship fits, this thing will lock it down, period, as long as it can keep up (as it has no idiot speed limitation in that mode)? Exactly that. It means that your only survival options are: - try to warp out before it can lock you. Good luck unless you're in a very fast ship, considering the Broadsword can fill all mids with sensor boost. - try to get back to gate. Requires MWD, tank and luck (no web on you). If you're in a ship that can't fit MWD and/or can't tank, you die. Period. - Cloak and hope they don't decloak you. Means you must have a cloak to travel in lowsec, and also means you need to get lucky (decloaking someone in a slow cloaked ship isn't that hard, if the HIC pilot is awake, the things move pretty fast). - Kill the HIC. Good luck with that, considering he'll also have a nice friendly gang with him, most likely. Currently CCP statistics show low-sec population to be about 17%. This change should drop it easily down into the single digit range.
Verite Rendition Caldari F.R.E.E. Explorer Atrum Tempestas Foedus	Posted - 2007.11.20 12:58:00 - [109] Originally by: Gamesguy Edited by: Gamesguy on 20/11/2007 00:08:23 In addition, MY blockade runner warps as fast as a shuttle. I've never ever had even an inty lock me before I warp. So I don't know wtf kind of fitting you're putting on your blockade runner(plates?) that lets a cruiser sized vessel lock it before it warps. And the cloak trick is alive and well. So in conclusion. Idiots who don't know how to fit blockade runners will have a problem with heavy dictors, people with a brain will not, just like how we dont even against triple sensor boosted lachesis with 8 points of scram(I happen to own one of those, and you cannot lock a well setup blockade runner before it warps). You're Amarr, blessed with a blockade runner that is both extremely agile and has enough low-slots to fit every damn low-slot mod in the game. The rest of us are getting by on 1-2 low-slot mods competing with poor agility and that's it. ---- FREE Explorer Lead Megalomanic EVE Automated Influence Map
MOS DEF 0utbreak	Posted - 2007.11.20 13:00:00 - [110] Edited by: MOS DEF on 20/11/2007 13:03:07 Originally by: Niffetin Edited by: Niffetin on 20/11/2007 08:23:17 I have used 4x Domination Warp Scrambler + 3x Sensor Booster II Lachesis as lowsec tackler and it works like a charm and can stop anything from warping except a fully stabbed Armageddon <.< Now imagine you can replace all those scrams with a sick tank and put one single tackling mod in a free hislot instead. That's the broadsword or onyx for you. Oh and it can do twice your damage too wich means you need to bring less buddies. Adding to that: Your single hislot tackles at 30 range wich gets rid of that lil chance the target had to decloak at the wrong spot.
Gamesguy Amarr D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.11.20 23:10:00 - [111] Originally by: Verite Rendition Originally by: Gamesguy Edited by: Gamesguy on 20/11/2007 00:08:23 In addition, MY blockade runner warps as fast as a shuttle. I've never ever had even an inty lock me before I warp. So I don't know wtf kind of fitting you're putting on your blockade runner(plates?) that lets a cruiser sized vessel lock it before it warps. And the cloak trick is alive and well. So in conclusion. Idiots who don't know how to fit blockade runners will have a problem with heavy dictors, people with a brain will not, just like how we dont even against triple sensor boosted lachesis with 8 points of scram(I happen to own one of those, and you cannot lock a well setup blockade runner before it warps). You're Amarr, blessed with a blockade runner that is both extremely agile and has enough low-slots to fit every damn low-slot mod in the game. The rest of us are getting by on 1-2 low-slot mods competing with poor agility and that's it. My alt uses a viator actually.
Ezekiel Sulastin Gallente Eve University	Posted - 2007.11.20 23:18:00 - [112] It DOES pretty much mean the end of most lowsec missioning, since it will be MUCH more difficult to move most missioning ships - or the mats to build them - in. Nobody will be foolhardy enough to take a battleship out, and even a HAC would be a dicey proposition. GG CCP, I'll stick to my hisec mission farming now :)
Gamesguy Amarr D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.11.21 00:06:00 - [113] Originally by: Ezekiel Sulastin It DOES pretty much mean the end of most lowsec missioning, since it will be MUCH more difficult to move most missioning ships - or the mats to build them - in. Nobody will be foolhardy enough to take a battleship out, and even a HAC would be a dicey proposition. GG CCP, I'll stick to my hisec mission farming now :) Use a scout?
Ezekiel Sulastin Gallente Eve University	Posted - 2007.11.21 00:24:00 - [114] Originally by: Gamesguy Originally by: Ezekiel Sulastin It DOES pretty much mean the end of most lowsec missioning, since it will be MUCH more difficult to move most missioning ships - or the mats to build them - in. Nobody will be foolhardy enough to take a battleship out, and even a HAC would be a dicey proposition. GG CCP, I'll stick to my hisec mission farming now :) Use a scout? Not a bad idea, and one I use on hauling runs already, but vs. hisec missions the risk/reward is way off with HICs involved ... at least by the looks of it. We'll have to wait until it hits tranq to see if the results are as predicted :)
Tsanse Kinske WeMeanYouKnowHarm	Posted - 2007.11.21 00:40:00 - [115] Edited by: Tsanse Kinske on 21/11/2007 00:44:24 I do think Hactor's will have a major effect on losec, some good, a lot bad. Though I don't see how Blockade Runners are the biggest losers. Their built-in WCS won't help, but their built-in agility and decent speed will, nor are they sacrificing anything by fitting a cloak. The people who are going to have the most problems will be those flying T1 haulers, mining ships, and the less agile combat ships. And newer pilots in general, as always. It's not the end of the world, especially with the other scripting changes making things more difficult for snipers. But Hactor camps will be extremely dangerous and require some tactical readjustments for people running them. Speed, scouts, teamwork, cloaks, experience, and basic common sense are still going to win the day most of the time. Pirates will adapt, so will everybody else. It's just that some people will adapt by not bothering any more, and most of losec is already too barren. If it goes too far, it's not going to be good for anybody there, pirates included. edit: That probably sounds worse than I actually feel about it. Long story short, losec needed new content and resources even more than it needed a Mom fix, and maybe even more than it needed new ways to interdict ships after WtZ. Perhaps the low quality boosters will balance this out, but I don't know. * * * In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move. -Douglas Adams, writing about EVE
Stephannus Calimben mUfFiN fAcToRy	Posted - 2007.11.21 05:46:00 - [116] Originally by: Tsanse Kinske Edited by: Tsanse Kinske on 21/11/2007 00:44:24 It's just that some people will adapt by not bothering any more, and most of losec is already too barren. If it goes too far, it's not going to be good for anybody there, pirates included. edit: That probably sounds worse than I actually feel about it. Long story short, losec needed new content and resources even more than it needed a Mom fix, and maybe even more than it needed new ways to interdict ships after WtZ. Perhaps the low quality boosters will balance this out, but I don't know. it still stands that the lowsec that has good targets either has good lvl4 missions or is on a trade route between major trade hubs or a main 0.0 entrance. Those areas will always be travelled because it's the fastest way through, and theres just not enough pirates in the game to totally eliminate the risk vs reward for traders looking to take a shortcut. There will always be noobs who autopilot their faction ships through lowsec, who fly everything they own in a t1 hauler, who think afk shuttles are an invincible way to get their bpo's into empire, and on and on and on. what the lack of content is destroying is targets in belts or targets that can be probed out, and until lvl 5's come along. all that these HICs will do is make it easier to catch those stab-monkey battleships, and free up a point on everybody else. Rather than everybody using up a midslot for a point, they can all fit a web, or a remote sensor booster, or more tank/cap regen/ecm or whatever. it's nice that the pirates FINALLY got a new toy to play with, after they've taken away so many from us ______________ ...mmm fire... ______________
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2007.11.21 06:32:00 - [117] Originally by: Stephannus Calimben Originally by: Tsanse Kinske Edited by: Tsanse Kinske on 21/11/2007 00:44:24 It's just that some people will adapt by not bothering any more, and most of losec is already too barren. If it goes too far, it's not going to be good for anybody there, pirates included. edit: That probably sounds worse than I actually feel about it. Long story short, losec needed new content and resources even more than it needed a Mom fix, and maybe even more than it needed new ways to interdict ships after WtZ. Perhaps the low quality boosters will balance this out, but I don't know. it still stands that the lowsec that has good targets either has good lvl4 missions or is on a trade route between major trade hubs or a main 0.0 entrance. Those areas will always be travelled because it's the fastest way through, and theres just not enough pirates in the game to totally eliminate the risk vs reward for traders looking to take a shortcut. There will always be noobs who autopilot their faction ships through lowsec, who fly everything they own in a t1 hauler, who think afk shuttles are an invincible way to get their bpo's into empire, and on and on and on. what the lack of content is destroying is targets in belts or targets that can be probed out, and until lvl 5's come along. all that these HICs will do is make it easier to catch those stab-monkey battleships, and free up a point on everybody else. Rather than everybody using up a midslot for a point, they can all fit a web, or a remote sensor booster, or more tank/cap regen/ecm or whatever. it's nice that the pirates FINALLY got a new toy to play with, after they've taken away so many from us It is really fun how most pirates are totally lacking the good sense to know that a excessive hunter populations against a small prey population is a bad thing and that further reducing the chance for the prey to flee is only exacerbating the problem. The pirates have a lot of toys from day 1, adding something for them is the worse possible idea for low sec. This new toy was added against the capital and supercapitals in low sec but will help reduce again the low sec population as it will remove most chances of escape to ship from cruiser up. Whe I first started EVE and WCS had not drawbacks there was a tale of a faction titted raven killed in low sec practically every week. Now it is months I don't see one of those. I dubt it is for lacking of pirates or tools for them, it is only that people with faction fitting generally avoid low sec as the plague.
Incantare Caldari Kernel of War Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2007.11.22 23:24:00 - [118] Originally by: Liang Nuren Full passive Myrmidon uses [PDU/SPR II] + 5x SPR II + 3x CDFP I = 9 Full passive Drake uses 4x SPRII + 3x CDFP I + Shield Recharger I = 8 Sure, they gain superior tanking - but at what cost? They're slightly mobile bricks with tanks better than most battleships. All the costs already mentioned above. Rather than repeating myself I'll point you to this thread. Why the about face? Quote: Active tanking (even if you devoted the same slottage to it) simply can't keep up - and has additional vulnerabilities to nos/neut. Liang I've read that argument before. I disagreed then and I still do now. There's no reason an active tank should be able to match a passive one slot for slot, after all it doesn't make the same sacrifices and can run cap intensive modules. An "all slot" active tank is sub optimal because some modules contribute very little ie: extra cap buffer. Looking at it from another angle: will a passive tank with (mwd/web/scram and has at least one damage mod tank as much dps as an active tank? No it won't, despite using as many slots. It goes both ways, these are different tanking methods with different pros and cons. So where are these complete passive tanks overpowered? The role of bait is really limited and a passive armor tanked ship does it extremely well too with the advantage of not collasping when its peak is bypassed by high incoming dps. And they tackle. Is it in gang warfare? Certainly not. No tackle, low dps, no e-war, they contribute very little to a gang. Fleets? lol Solo is where it can be argued, because they cannot be broken by a same sized ship, good thing eve isn't a single player game. Without a propulsion mod they get nowhere fast and make for easy targets once backup arrives.
Tairon Usaro The X-Trading Company Mostly Harmless	Posted - 2007.11.23 10:14:00 - [119] just put a scan resolution malus and immunity to remote sensor boost support on the module per se, lets say factor of 10 longer locking time, along with total immunity to any support upon module activation, this will do the job. HICs just can only effectively target super-caps because every thing smaller takes ages to lock with standard fitting. They might be able to tackle smaller (capitals BS BC ) if they extremly compromise their own fitting by 3 sensor booster which can be counter acted by remote sensor dampeners or jamming. the 0.0 function is not affected since it is area effect. voila HIC has its intended role and does not completly scew up low sec ________________________________________________ Some days i loose, some days the others win ...
Riho Northen Breeze	Posted - 2007.11.23 10:34:00 - [120] its not going to be fun :( i feel that my blokade runner will be opsolete :( HIC can use hi slot scram.. that means soem of them can fit a tank that tanks sentrys perma and it has room for mwd to keep up whit the target.. those things gan go bloddy fast aswell :/

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