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Fenderson
Shadow Company FreeFall Securities
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Posted - 2007.11.16 13:23:00 -
[61]
Originally by: Bomerang
IT'S A TRAP!
No wonder people want to boost aux thrusters because they will give the most gain to the ships who are already the fastest. PERCENT gain anyone.
Polycarbs gives most benefit to the ship who got most mass. Again, percent reduction.
If devs fall for that trap... Who wants my stuff ?
this is true, but currently the aux thrusters are just too weak. they probably should not be boosted to the same as tech II, but they should be boosted a little. and polycarbs should be nerfed just a little too.
i say this as an avid nano pilot. i love speed fitting and i do think that polycarbs are a tad overpowered and aux thrusters a tad underpowered.
Originally by: CCP Wrangler Oh dear, how about we all calm down a bit instead?
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Weyoun 1
Gallente Stellar Federation Celestial Federation
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Posted - 2007.11.16 13:35:00 -
[62]
They're NOT overpowered, it's the Nanofibers that are UNDERpowered.
T2 Overdrive gives +20% bonus T2 Inertia stabs give +20% bonus T2 Nanofibers give ONLY +12.5% bonus
What's up with that? Just raise T2 Nanofibers to +20% bonus (and all others accordingly) to be in line, prob solved. |
Hertford
Ars ex Discordia GoonSwarm
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Posted - 2007.11.16 13:37:00 -
[63]
Edited by: Hertford on 16/11/2007 13:37:19
Originally by: Arkady Sadik Overdrive Injector System II: +20% speed Auxiliary Thruster I: +10% speed (50% of the tech 2 module) Auxiliary Thruster II: +15% speed (75% of the tech 2 module)
Nanofiber Internal Structure II: -12.5% mass Polycarbon Engine Housing I: -15% mass (120% of the tech 2 module) Polycarbon Engine Hosuing II: -20% mass (160% of the tech 2 module)
If you can't see why polycarbons are out of line in terms of the mass reduction... |
Trask Kilraen
The Older Gamers R0ADKILL
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Posted - 2007.11.16 14:54:00 -
[64]
Edited by: Trask Kilraen on 16/11/2007 14:54:28
Originally by: Jesnen Arkady, what I'm saying is that when you bring everything in line you limit extraordinary ship fits and dumb down gameplay as a whole by eliminating specialized and advanced ship fits and tactics. Also by making it harder for small groups to fly elite ships small gang warfare tends to get switched out for the blob.
The problem is that a nano-gang is MORE than simply a specialty gang.... it's an almost no-risk gank squad gang/ Sure, with the exact right mix of ships, you can put the hurt on a nano-gang, but let's face it, it's pretty friggin' rare. 9/10 times (or even more), a nano-gang can avoid being caught by a nano-hunter gang. Personally, I don;t have a huge problem with them. For the most part, just forma decent gang and they'll leave your area, but still... I don't think they're appropriately balanced.
I should say that I favor adding new options to defeat them, rather than yet another whack of the nerf bat. ------------------------------------------
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Dash Endinia
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Posted - 2007.11.16 15:27:00 -
[65]
I think it's important to remember speed gangs do promote small gang warfare. Slow fat ships don't do much but promote large gang warfare.
Also there is plenty of ways to kill a nano gang, rapier, huginn, nos / neut setups punish nano gangs quite effectively. People always want the easy way to kill an enemy. This is eve it's meant to require a bit of thought.
Not much of a solution in my post ;), but i don't feel they are overpowered. I do feel though that people don't fly the right ships / setups to counter them.
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Alpine 69
Slacker Industries Exuro Mortis
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Posted - 2007.11.16 15:52:00 -
[66]
Edited by: Alpine 69 on 16/11/2007 15:52:35 Rapier + Arazu = Bye Bye nanoship
Now stop whining already, personal incompetence does not justify the nerfing of "Advanced" setup options.
Also, most of the people that are whining about polycarbons are the people that have no problems affording polycarbons. Carebears, stop thinking everybody is as rich as you are.
Sweet love for the ones that mod my sig <3 From her? You're on. -Rauth |
Hoshi
Blackguard Brigade Aftermath Alliance
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Posted - 2007.11.16 16:31:00 -
[67]
Originally by: Weyoun 1 They're NOT overpowered, it's the Nanofibers that are UNDERpowered.
T2 Overdrive gives +20% bonus T2 Inertia stabs give +20% bonus T2 Nanofibers give ONLY +12.5% bonus
What's up with that? Just raise T2 Nanofibers to +20% bonus (and all others accordingly) to be in line, prob solved.
Because a +20% bonus on nanos is the same as a +20% agility and a +20% speed bonus (while using mwd/ab). So a nano would have the same effect as both an overdrive and inertia stab at the same time.
With rigs atm 1 polycarbon do the same job as 2.5 other rigs at the same time (1.5 aux thrusters and 1 low friction nozzle joint). This is of course wrong. ---------------------------------------- A Guide to Scan Probing in Revelations |
Pesadel0
Vagabundos
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Posted - 2007.11.16 16:40:00 -
[68]
Originally by: Alpine 69 Edited by: Alpine 69 on 16/11/2007 15:52:35 Rapier + Arazu = Bye Bye nanoship
Now stop whining already, personal incompetence does not justify the nerfing of "Advanced" setup options.
Also, most of the people that are whining about polycarbons are the people that have no problems affording polycarbons. Carebears, stop thinking everybody is as rich as you are.
I aprove this post.If you canŠt cath them with your gang learn new tactics.
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Zirator
Times of Ancar Pure.
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Posted - 2007.11.16 17:07:00 -
[69]
I've seen the light today.
It's blatantly clear that polycarbs need to get fixed. But till now CCP has avoided any comment on this subject. Well here it comes:
/tinfoil hat mode ON
Ok my guess is that CCP, will stealthnerf polycarbs in the big content patch that is comming up. However they won't say so before hand cause this will lead to major crying and whining on the forums. By stealthnerfing the polycarbs they will at least prevent a chunk of the whineage.
/tinfoil hat mode OFF
I seriously hope that they will nerf polycarbs, it's ridiculous that cruiser fly faster then inty's. Yes I know I can put the same rigs and fittings on an inty but I refuse to do that cause the balance between ship and fitting cost is completely gone.
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Arkady Sadik
Gradient Electus Matari
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Posted - 2007.11.16 18:57:00 -
[70]
Let's sum up the discussion so far, excluding the whines.
PLEASE NOTE: THIS IS NEITHER ABOUT "NANO GANGS ARE OVERPOWERED!!!" NOR ABOUT "NANO GANGS ARE OK!!!", SO PLEASE STOP WHINING ABOUT EITHER, THANK YOU.
Speed modules are nice as they are, and their stats are balanced with regard to each other. All three are useful, depending on what exactly is needed. Looking for raw speed? Fit an ODI. You need agility? Fit an istab. You have only one slot, but you want both a bit more speed and a bit more agility? Fit a nano. They don't give as much speed as an ODI, and not as much agility as an istab, but they give both in one slot. So the relative precentage levels between modules is fine and should stay this way.
Compare this with the three corresponding rigs. Looking for raw speed? Fit polycarbs. You need agility? Fit polycarbs. You want both? Well, fit polycarbs already. This is the main problem.
Now another observation. As soon as one rig becomes more efficient than its corresponding module, percentage-wise, it is necessary to fit this rig in an optimal setup. To create more variety, I would think it best to keep the relative effectiveness between the rigs the same as between the modules.
The current stats are as follows. I do assume that tech 2 modules should in some way correspond to tech 1 rigs, hence only those numbers now for easier reference:
Overdrive Injector System II: +20% speed Auxiliary Thruster I: +10% speed (50% of the tech 2 module)
Inertia Stabilizer II: -20% agility Low Friction Nozzle Joints I: -15% agility (75% of the tech 2 module)
Nanofiber Internal Structure II: -12.5% mass Polycarbon Engine Housing I: -15% mass (120% of the tech 2 module)
To achieve the above-mentioned goal, we basically have three options:
1) Make rigs more effective than the modules
(The option for the "nano gangs are fine" whiners)
Rigs become more effective than the modules. This means you will decide the main speed attributes of your ship with rigs, and complement it with the low-slot modules. Polycarbs stay the same as they are now (120% as effective as the module), the other two rigs are adjusted accordingly:
Overdrive Injector System II: +20% speed Auxiliary Thruster I: +24% speed (120% of the tech 2 module)
Inertia Stabilizer II: -20% agility Low Friction Nozzle Joints I: -24% agility (120% of the tech 2 module)
Nanofiber Internal Structure II: -12.5% mass Polycarbon Engine Housing I: -15% maxx (120% of the tech 2 module)
2) Make rigs less effective than the modules
(The option for the "nano gangs need nerfing" whiners)
Modules define the main speed attributes, rigs are used to fine-tune them. There are basically two obvious options, namely using 75% (as the low friction nozzle joints have now) or using 50% (as the auxiliary thrusters have now). Of course, we could use any other percentage as well.
Overdrive Injector System II: +20% speed Auxiliary Thruster I: +10% speed (50% of the tech 2 module) Auxiliary Thruster I: +15% speed (75% of the tech 2 module)
Inertia Stabilizer II: -20% agility Low Friction Nozzle Joints I: -10% agility (50% of the tech 2 module) Low Friction Nozzle Joints I: -15% agility (75% of the tech 2 module)
Nanofiber Internal Structure II: -12.5% mass Polycarbon Engine Housing I: -6.25% mass (50% of the tech 2 module) Polycarbon Engine Housing I: -9.375% mass (75% of the tech 2 module)
Which one to choose would have to be decided by testing, to see whther the 50% is too underpowered, or the 75% too effective. I can't test it, so I won't comment on that
3) Make rigs as effective as the modules
This will result in the 2-3 rig slots to be just 2-3 more low slots for speed ships. The boring option, if you ask me.
And now, please, for the love of all the kittens in this world, stop whining about whether nano gangs are good or bad, and give feedback on the relative balancing between the rigs.
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Tsanse Kinske
WeMeanYouKnowHarm
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Posted - 2007.11.16 19:20:00 -
[71]
My suggestion on this was [current proposed]
Quote:
Polycarb I: 15% mass 12.5%, and reduce the alloyed trit input
Nano II: 12.5% mass -20% structure 15% mass, -15% structure
LF Nozzle I: 15% agility 17.5%
The main idea being to give people more reason to use different modules and rigs, and keep the general pattern of balancing where a rig gives an inferior bonus to a corresponding module if there is one. It also doesn't shake things up much. Polycarbs are still great, speed builds are still viable.
In an ideal world, I'd also be wanting to revisit every ship's base speeds to differentiate them better, but that's probably pie-in-the-sky.
* * * In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move.
-Douglas Adams, writing about EVE |
Random Womble
Minmatar Master Miners Aftermath Alliance
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Posted - 2007.11.16 19:53:00 -
[72]
Originally by: Zirator
I seriously hope that they will nerf polycarbs, it's ridiculous that cruiser fly faster then inty's. Yes I know I can put the same rigs and fittings on an inty but I refuse to do that cause the balance between ship and fitting cost is completely gone.
Funny because some of the problem people had with polys was people put them on interditors which were much more likely to die than ceptors purely because they get called primary and really are not too much more expensive these days than ceptors before invention btw people put gist MWDs on Intys for speed and those cost a packet these days.
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Arkady Sadik
Gradient Electus Matari
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Posted - 2007.11.16 20:12:00 -
[73]
Originally by: Tsanse Kinske My suggestion on this was [current proposed]
Polycarb I: 15% mass 12.5%, and reduce the alloyed trit input
Nano II: 12.5% mass -20% structure 15% mass, -15% structure
LF Nozzle I: 15% agility 17.5%
That would make aux thrusters 50% of the ODIs, LF nozzles 87.5% of istabs, and polycarbs 83.3% of nanos. That is, it is never useful to fit aux thrusters (because the other rigs replace the modules with less loss of total efficiency). Ideally, you will your modules with ODIs and nanos, and rigs with LF nozzles. Of course, few ships can dedicate six lows and three rigs to speed tanking, so you will see ODIs in lows, maybe a nano, and rigs filled with polycarbs and possibly an LF nozzle. Other combinations are less effective. Is that intended?
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Tsanse Kinske
WeMeanYouKnowHarm
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Posted - 2007.11.16 22:01:00 -
[74]
Aux. Thrusters / ODs were tough, as I didn't want to nerf ODs, but neither did I want to give speed mods a net boost. In the end I decided it was best to leave them, with the thought that Aux Thrusters have some niche uses (for instance on Cloakers that need their lows for other things) and that the cargo penalty on ODIIs is actually pretty cruel on a lot of ships, even if it's not reflected in the raw numbers we love to throw around on the forums, other than on haulers.
I did play with reducing the armor penalty on Thrusters to give them a little more appeal, but since none of the other rigs are differentiated that way, I abandoned the idea.
* * * In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move.
-Douglas Adams, writing about EVE |
Leon 026
Caldari Veto. Veto Corp
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Posted - 2007.11.20 07:30:00 -
[75]
Originally by: Andreya im a poly user as well. but i think it would be best to remove em alltogether, only reason im sayin gthat is, they are making the 'nano'hacs not only faster, but MUCH more agile as well... being fast is one thing, but its alot easier to be caught if your acceleration is lower. which to be honest, would be a far trade off.... less complaining from non nano users, and satisfied nano users... (but some more dead ones :P)
and with the Hyena, the nano era is coming to an end anyways :P
Agreed, removing polycarbs altogether is the better way to go. Currently they give higher bonuses than their actual module counter-part. 40mil being 'expensive' is nothing these days. Thanks to our great market economy and general availability of missions in empire, 80mil is pocket change.
However, an even more important thing about polycarbs, is that it vastly increases the efficiency of snake implants. Some would argue that snakes are too good, however it is my personal opinion that they are THAT good because their efficiency is multiplied through the use of polycarbs.
A low grade snake set adds a 33% boost to total velocity. 33% of 4km/s is vastly smaller in number (1.3km/s) compared to 33% of 10km/s (3.3km/s). The mere addition of polycarbs to a setup almost doubles the 'bang for the buck' you get out of snake implants. Where spending 1.5bil to get a total addition of 1,300m/s is a seriously costly investment to get that extra edge, a 3,300m/s boost gives you a MASSIVE advantage over an opponent.
I continue to recommend that polycarbs are either dropped down either inline to their module counter-parts, or a simple removal of them to kill the crazed polycarb-nano fad.
Yes, speed tanks should exist, but speed tanks and "hit & run" should come at a price with serious thought given to either investment of a snake set to get a little extra edge, or meticulous managing of the low slots to balance agility vs speed. The existence of polycarbs with their minimal cost of 80mil not only makes double-poly setups "the norm", but removes any need to balance out the low slots, as two polycarb rigs will remove any drawback from having 3 overdrives in the low slot.
Rigs were introduced to give people options and a wide range of versatility. When a single rig becomes "the norm", something is clearly wrong. -------
Leon 026 Once I was fallen, now I have wings |
Evanda Char
Minmatar Re-Awakened Technologies Inc Electus Matari
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Posted - 2007.12.25 12:05:00 -
[76]
I just read through all the way and had a play with EFT, and I have to agree with Kady here - and I not only mostly fly nanofits, but also make a living out of building and selling polycarbs.
What I find now when I'm fighting, is that against 90% of opponents, I can point my finger and tell you exactly what he's got fitted just from hearing the ship name - doesn't mean I can counter it, mind, but same-old, same-old fight. Straight-up cookie-cuttered fits based on either Trimarks (the other mainstay of my income) or Polycarbs. Of the rest, 8% will be flying something roughly equivalent to just rubbing their own face against a cheese-grater and saving me the effort, and the remaining 2% will have something brilliant and off-the-wall that wil kick my head in. But likely involving polycarbs or trimarks.
If rigs were a little more balanced with each other and their module counterparts, people would have to think more, fittings would actually differ from one opponent to the next.
Fights would be different. There'd be more of that thinking-on-you feet, knuckle-biting excitement where you don't know what's coming next and have to come up with tactics on the fly.
What we wouldn't be able to do was what we did right before the last nano-nerf, when we were faced with a couple of opponents flying nano-phoons repeatedly - go out, practice a set piece, and gank them the next time we saw them, by rote.
I hate surprises in combat, but I hate boredom more.
Balanced rigs = more thought = less yawning.
-Eva-
Electus Matari - taking it one bad guy at a time |
The Djego
Minmatar FORTES FORTUNA ADIUVAT CORP. Veritas Immortalis
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Posted - 2007.12.25 13:21:00 -
[77]
Originally by: Hoshi
Originally by: Weyoun 1 They're NOT overpowered, it's the Nanofibers that are UNDERpowered.
T2 Overdrive gives +20% bonus T2 Inertia stabs give +20% bonus T2 Nanofibers give ONLY +12.5% bonus
What's up with that? Just raise T2 Nanofibers to +20% bonus (and all others accordingly) to be in line, prob solved.
Because a +20% bonus on nanos is the same as a +20% agility and a +20% speed bonus (while using mwd/ab). So a nano would have the same effect as both an overdrive and inertia stab at the same time.
With rigs atm 1 polycarbon do the same job as 2.5 other rigs at the same time (1.5 aux thrusters and 1 low friction nozzle joint). This is of course wrong.
This.
I have no Idee why so many pro "nano" People post here with nothing than the "price" argument. The Rig combines 2 Advantages needed to speedtank and Nano ships in one. The Nanofibers give that to but on a Level a more speciliced Mod will be better than one general Mod that gives multiply advantages. Reducing the effect will lead in diffrent fittings and weaker fittings for the speed/agility ratio so people has to chose again what is more improtant to them. High agility or high Speed not both at the same time. A reduction for Tritanium Bars inline with reducing the effect of the Poly seams ok. Nerf Tank, boost Gank! XD
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Knocturnal
omen. Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2007.12.25 13:41:00 -
[78]
In an era where 2falcons and 2scorps perma jammes a 25man gang .. let's nerf speed aswell ... i don't realy know if people realy think how expensive is to get those speeds up even for an interceptor.. You actualy have to pay 100m+ for an inty.. :-s... I pay ****loads of isk to keep speed up and speed is the only thing that i have when i'm beeing jammed every damn fight.
F*ck Derek we got Xlop. |
The Djego
Minmatar FORTES FORTUNA ADIUVAT CORP. Veritas Immortalis
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Posted - 2007.12.25 14:46:00 -
[79]
Edited by: The Djego on 25/12/2007 14:47:47
Originally by: Knocturnal In an era where 2falcons and 2scorps perma jammes a 25man gang .. let's nerf speed aswell ... i don't realy know if people realy think how expensive is to get those speeds up even for an interceptor.. You actualy have to pay 100m+ for an inty.. :-s... I pay ****loads of isk to keep speed up and speed is the only thing that i have when i'm beeing jammed every damn fight.
This is not on toppic and again only comes up with the price argument. Also 2 Scorps and 2 Falcons canŠt do that. To perma jam a Ship bigger than a Frig you need 2-3 Jammers so mostly a EW Ship can take out 2-3 even with maxium Skills and the right Fitting close to permanent, not 100% permaent. Also if you get a lock you can put Drones on the EW Ship -> they are not tanked if they want to be effective. Putting a Nano or Tank fitting on this ships increase her chance to survive but also reduce there permajam ability to 1-2 Targets. Nerf Tank, boost Gank! XD
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Evanda Char
Minmatar Re-Awakened Technologies Inc Electus Matari
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Posted - 2007.12.26 00:29:00 -
[80]
Oh, and to those who raise the price argument that for the price, Polycarbs should be something special, I'd say that were Polys more in balance, CCP could un-nerf the drop rate of Alloyed Tritanium Bars and the price on them would drop to, again, be more in line with other rigs.
-Eva-
Electus Matari - taking it one bad guy at a time |
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