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Lord Bleu MisFunk Inc. Frontline.	Posted - 2007.11.13 16:00:00 - [1] Edited by: Lord Bleu on 13/11/2007 16:00:10 Ok, IÆve seen the outcry that has been caused by some of CCPÆs proposed changes to the game, particularly carriers. I bought one about one month ago after finally getting the skills & ISK for it (not had the gonads to actually fly it yet!) then I read about the changes a week later so I too am not a happy bunny. It reminded me of SWG when I became so obsessed about becoming a Jedi, IÆm embarrassed to say I almost lost my wife who thank fk stayed with. (Yeah I look back now and think WTF was I playing at!). Anyway After spending a year glued to the PC grinding on stupid monsters and doing other pointless tasks I achieved my goal of being a Jedi. One month later SOE announced NGE and they made an enemy of me and thousands of more players by wiping out the hard investment literally overnight.. Even now I refuse to play a SOE game, and I never will, nor will any of my kids Many players are comparing the new changes CCP are planning to make to those of SOE and its disastrous NGE but in my opinion (which is all this is BTW), thereÆs a huge difference. You see when SOE announced the NGE, it was blatantly obvious no matter what spin they tried to put on it, that the changes they made and their motives were designed to pull in more money at the expense of what at the time was their extremely loyal player base. The changes they made will absolutely without a doubt go down in history as one of the gaming industryÆs largest***-ups. Every single SOE employee who went on record during that awful period, could simply not conceal their horrific crime and you could see written all over their fake smiling faces and hear it in their æiconicÆ æfunÆ æstarwarsyÆ pre-scripted statements that they had no interest in the æplayerÆ. CCP on the other hand strikes me as completely different. Every interview IÆve ever seen involving a member of CCP I can see the passion oozing out of these guys. Every blog IÆve read, IÆve been surprised by the straight talk and honesty. If IÆm honest, because of my bad experience with SOE, this is one of the reasons I still play eve, I have faith in the guys behind the game. So as I say, I aint no fanboy, well maybe just a bit !. The carrier changes anger me big time, but I still think CCP are a swell bunch of people who are passionate about Eveà Or am I wrong?
An Anarchyyt Gallente Sublime.	Posted - 2007.11.13 16:04:00 - [2] SWG was much better when not everyone knew how to become a Jedi. Originally by: CCP Wrangler Second, a gentile is a non jewish person
Tarminic Forsaken Resistance	Posted - 2007.11.13 16:06:00 - [3] No, you're definitely correct. Despite what people have said on occasion, the people at CCP legitimately love EVE, and want to see it succeed. Nerfing things is an unfortunate part of that. People legitimately suggesting that the carrier nerf is comparable to SWG's NGE are either nuts or extremely immature. At this point it's like Godwin's law. ---------------- Tarminic - 29 Million SP in ~~pink~~ Forum Warfare
Barbaro55a Caldari Os Lobos	Posted - 2007.11.13 16:07:00 - [4] Well said. I don't fly carriers, never plan to (Caldari Dred FTW!), but i'm sure that CCP are still doing what they think is best for the game. This will allways upset a portion of the player base, but the fact that CCP are prepared to sit down and discuss it, even after people troll the forums shouting about (proposed) changes still fills me with a giddy feeling just to the left of my liver that keeps me coming back to this game every day. Sometimes more than once a day. /Signs thread. Originally by: ISD Valorem If someone has hurt you out of game then please talk to family, friends or Police (if necessary)
Keorythe Caldari Terra Rosa Militia Sev3rance	Posted - 2007.11.13 16:08:00 - [5] Jedi and ultimately the overpowering of the Jedi class led to the downfall of the game. It got to the point where if you weren't a Jedi or had a mind fire weapon then you were a second class fighter. Yes, it was better when there was perma-death and they were so rare that you wanted screenshots when you saw one.
An Anarchyyt Gallente Sublime.	Posted - 2007.11.13 16:10:00 - [6] Originally by: Keorythe Jedi and ultimately the overpowering of the Jedi class led to the downfall of the game. It got to the point where if you weren't a Jedi or had a mind fire weapon then you were a second class fighter. Yes, it was better when there was perma-death and they were so rare that you wanted screenshots when you saw one. The way it should've been. Permadeth, and it should've been a hiden secret how to become one. Especially given the time that the game takes place in in the history. And yes, I agree with everything else here. I just always need to gripe and whine about SWG. Originally by: CCP Wrangler Second, a gentile is a non jewish person
Valron Xizor The Xizor Cartel	Posted - 2007.11.13 16:17:00 - [7] Originally by: An Anarchyyt Originally by: Keorythe Jedi and ultimately the overpowering of the Jedi class led to the downfall of the game. It got to the point where if you weren't a Jedi or had a mind fire weapon then you were a second class fighter. Yes, it was better when there was perma-death and they were so rare that you wanted screenshots when you saw one. The way it should've been. Permadeth, and it should've been a hiden secret how to become one. Especially given the time that the game takes place in in the history. And yes, I agree with everything else here. I just always need to gripe and whine about SWG. I here SOE changed the name of Jedi to J$$$$$$$$$$$$$$DI. Shame it backfired ROFL.. Noobs!
Althier	Posted - 2007.11.13 16:44:00 - [8] You fools CCP dont love the game or you all they want is yor cash. What will be the next thing nerfed? CCP demise to other MMOG is neigh, but what they dont tell yo they are gonna take as much cash off of ppl then pull the plug. Why else all the changes and secrecy. Their system cant cope now let alone with 35 or 40k of players on at any one time. Remember the desync and lag (according to them it wasnt them it was all the players around the world that had the problem) Do you really think they care? No the dont, they are corrupt, they steal, they lie and then insult your intellegence
Tarminic Forsaken Resistance	Posted - 2007.11.13 16:49:00 - [9] Originally by: Althier (Mad scientist rants) That was entertaining. ---------------- Tarminic - 29 Million SP in ~~pink~~ Forum Warfare
An Anarchyyt Gallente Sublime.	Posted - 2007.11.13 16:50:00 - [10] Originally by: Althier Do you really think they care? No the dont, they are corrupt, they steal, they lie and then insult your intellegence Well, reading this inane bit of babble did make me stupider. Originally by: CCP Wrangler Second, a gentile is a non jewish person

Kavol Valarius Amarr Unity of Honor	Posted - 2007.11.13 16:54:00 - [11] CCP have kept their management in more of a family structure, rather than a rigid "we just want your money" corporation like SOE. CCP does listen, they just can't comment much because the players would use those comments as leverage. I, too, was shafted by the new Jedi and the NGE downgrade (see what I did there? ) after having been unlocked for a long time. Hell, I was the Imperial leader of a whole server (Tarquinas) and completed things that no one else had. Like soloing the Avatar station back when it was nigh-impossible, or completing the entire Kashyyk run solo, space part included. I hate SOE with a passion for making me abandon that character. It's been the only MMO I've risen to the very top in and I loved it dearly. -----
gordon861 Minmatar Head Insurance Services	Posted - 2007.11.13 17:42:00 - [12] I'm also one of the ex-SWG that got shafted by SOE. I really hope CCP don't do an NGE with the upcoming changes. I think CCP need to get on with publishing the devblogs about what they are actually going to do, or even where they see the game going. I was reading a few posts by DEVs today from about a week ago saying they had blogs that should be out in the next few days explaining things, well get them out here asap please Originally by: CCP Arkanon I frown on employees being power players to the extent that their gameplay results in any sort of domination over others. I donÆt believe CCP employees should run the EVE universe.
Grunanca Fusion Mercenaries The Red Skull	Posted - 2007.11.13 17:46:00 - [13] Being a victim of the NGE too, I can only agree with the op. Lost more than 150 friends with SOE's brainfart. EVE will never end like that.
Turin Caldari Eternity INC. Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2007.11.13 17:51:00 - [14] Originally by: Tarminic No, you're definitely correct. Despite what people have said on occasion, the people at CCP legitimately love EVE, and want to see it succeed. Nerfing things is an unfortunate part of that. People legitimately suggesting that the carrier nerf is comparable to SWG's NGE are either nuts or extremely immature. At this point it's like Godwin's law. The issue here isnt JUST that carriers are being nerfed. They are pretty much going insane with nerfs this next patch. I doubt any patch in all of EVE will contain as many nerfs as the next patch. They are doing everything they can to dummy down the game so that the avg 3-4 month old player is on par with the avg 3-4 year players. This is wrong IMO. Its the same thing SOE did, and it destroyed their game. _________________________________
Iyanah Minmatar Native Freshfood	Posted - 2007.11.13 17:57:00 - [15] Originally by: An Anarchyyt SWG was much better when not everyone knew how to become a Jedi. indeed. i created a trial account for SWG, the interface was clunky, the class i chose to play (smuggler) was pointless, as it's main class features hadn't been finished, and pretty much everyone i met was a jedi. extremely boring. as far as the CCP vs SoE title is concerned: CCP wins hands down every time. ========================================== that's no moon... oh, wait, yes it is, the space station's out the other window.
Daelin Blackleaf Aliastra	Posted - 2007.11.13 17:58:00 - [16] You should have seen what they did to MxO. No CCP are nothing at all like SOE. Even if CCP didn't love the game it is their main source of income, trying to squeeze some short term cash out of it at the expense of long-term success really wouldn't make any sense. SOE have their fingers in so many pies they can afford to lose a few to gain some quick cash or as in the case of MxO can afford to buy a game, fire it's staff, close down nearly all development, and continue to milk the die-hard fans. Of course once WoD-Online is out CCP will have a second "pie" but I don't see them turning into SOE over it. EVE is their baby, WoD is White-Wolf's, I don't see either of them wanting to compromise either product or IP. -------- EVE Trinity: THE SKY IS FALLING!
Jenny Spitfire Caldari	Posted - 2007.11.13 19:38:00 - [17] CCP != SOE --------- Technica impendi Caldari generis. Pax Caldaria! Kali is for KArebearLIng. I 100% agree with Avon. Female EVE gamers? Mail Zajo or visit WGOE.Public in-game.
Karlemgne The Black Fleet	Posted - 2007.11.13 20:18:00 - [18] Edited by: Karlemgne on 13/11/2007 20:20:18 Originally by: Lord Bleu stuff You are completely wrong. Number one, its not SOEs fault that you, by your own admission, became so obsessed with becoming a certain character class in their game, you almost broke up your family. Of course you were upset, you'd almost been willing to lose your wife (maybe kids I dunno) to become a Jedi. However, just because being a Jedi was that important to you it does not follow that SOE is to blame when they changed the game in such a way that your potential sacrifice of family for dots and pixels was rendered meaningless. YOU put your own value into that. You decided what it was going to worth to YOU. Its not SOEs responsibility to base their game design/balancing decisions on the value that you ascribed to a character class in their game. Now that that is out of the way I will enlighten you further. SOE constantly gets crap for SWG's NGE. The truth of the matter is (trust me I've got it on very GOOD authority) that the NGE was mandated my Lucas Arts. This was backed up with the threat of license revocation. And yes, CCP is very differemt from SOE for a number of reasons. These differences are both good and bad. A lot of the difference depends on the location of the company. European and American game development are very different. For the most part I feel that CCP wins in a side-by-side comparison with SOE. However, one thing that would never happen at SOE is intentional developer cheating on the in-game server(s). Any developer caught doing this would be immediately fired. CCP has a different take on this. I think SOE's (in this case) is better. -K
Karlemgne The Black Fleet	Posted - 2007.11.13 20:25:00 - [19] Originally by: Daelin Blackleaf You should have seen what they did to MxO. No CCP are nothing at all like SOE. Even if CCP didn't love the game it is their main source of income, trying to squeeze some short term cash out of it at the expense of long-term success really wouldn't make any sense. SOE have their fingers in so many pies they can afford to lose a few to gain some quick cash or as in the case of MxO can afford to buy a game, fire it's staff, close down nearly all development, and continue to milk the die-hard fans. Of course once WoD-Online is out CCP will have a second "pie" but I don't see them turning into SOE over it. EVE is their baby, WoD is White-Wolf's, I don't see either of them wanting to compromise either product or IP. What exactly did they do to MxO? A game that was so flawed that it was unloaded by Warner Brothers as part of the deal where SOE acquired the rights to make a DC comics MMO. And when I say unloaded I mean, "take this game with you or we won't sell the rights to make a DC comics MMO." The fact is MxO sucked from the very beginning and it continued to suck after SOE got the game. Personally, I think blaming SOE for MxO is like blaming someone for not being able to turn fecal material into a tasty 4 star meal. -Karl
Tao Han Perkone	Posted - 2007.11.13 20:45:00 - [20] How are you comparing the NGE to the carrier changes? ------ snip Your signature image is password-protected. -Rauth Kivaro([email protected]) I know, CEO was being a tard. -Tao

John Blackthorn Foundation R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.11.13 20:47:00 - [21] For those of us that didn't play the game what change did they make to the Jedi?
Jenny Spitfire Caldari	Posted - 2007.11.13 20:58:00 - [22] SOE made Jedi more intuitive to unlock. :) Unfortunately, green-eyed vets did not approve making the game better and more intuitive. It is like the sour feeling when you are dumped by an ex. :( --------- Technica impendi Caldari generis. Pax Caldaria! Kali is for KArebearLIng. I 100% agree with Avon. Female EVE gamers? Mail Zajo or visit WGOE.Public in-game.
Kharadran Sullath Caldari IntoXication Inc	Posted - 2007.11.13 21:03:00 - [23] Originally by: Karlemgne Edited by: Karlemgne on 13/11/2007 20:20:18 Originally by: Lord Bleu stuff more stuff and... For the most part I feel that CCP wins in a side-by-side comparison with SOE. However, one thing that would never happen at SOE is intentional developer cheating on the in-game server(s). Any developer caught doing this would be immediately fired. CCP has a different take on this. I think SOE's (in this case) is better. Screw forgiveness eh? ------ --Don't get saucy with me Bernaise!--
Niccolado Starwalker Shadow Templars	Posted - 2007.11.13 21:11:00 - [24] Honestly, comparing those two companies is not possible since SOE did so much more then just "nerf" the game. They went beyond it and destroyed everything from classes and professions to the control settings of the characters! Quite a few hated the new controls (I hate FPS Controls!!!), even more hated the removal of the little player run echonomy (no more decay plus you found better equipment then your crafers could make). The removal or merging of classes killed a lot. The cold shoulder SOE gave us was even worse. And when we told them to stop it the day before the launch they answered with bannin hundreds of players! THAT is just SOME of the reasons why SOE got messed up! I have no sympathy for such a company! I stayed loyal for 2,5 years, but you can only string my loyalty to a certain extendt. CCP have dont nothing of this. They have instead brought us lot of nice things! Yes, the carrier nerf is a little sad for some people, but honestly - get over it! All ships are getting adjusted from time to time, and I know that before this nerf where known a lot of you whiners also whined about eve turning into "carriers online"! There where simply too much carriers in the game! Now we will see carriers where they belong - and where they belong only: Support and logistical fleet support, with a strong combat arm in fleet battles! No more solo camping gates! No more solo pwning etc! Honestly, the carriers still have so many uses that its insane! What about support ships and strong freighter ship between empire and deep space? Its the safest way to transport goods between those two destinations! Honestly all, get over it! There are so many good ships in eve! if you dont like the carrier anymore, just do as so many others ahve done before you: change to a different ship! Get into an Astarte for example? its fantastic and absolutely delightfull ship to fly!! Sarah McTeef: You all should really try and stay on topic. Which when I last checked, was my grocery list
Reto The Last Resort	Posted - 2007.11.13 21:15:00 - [25] Originally by: John Blackthorn For those of us that didn't play the game what change did they make to the Jedi? theres a wiki article about it aswell. just wiki NGE or SOE or Starwars Galaxies. in short: they eliminated the hard work of a load of players overnight by simply allowing everyone to become a jedi, the strongest and most hard to achieve profession in swg. it was very like giving every novize player the option to start as a titan pilot form the beginning of their eve experience. SOE degraded SWG to a game for 12-year-olds without any direction or complexity thus mutating it into a dumb and uninteresting soulless moneymaking merchandise. Originally by: s4mp3r0r "Hey man, you're mom has a cruise missile".
Hikari Nakamuru Gallente Shugotenshi Genkuro	Posted - 2007.11.13 21:20:00 - [26] Originally by: Lord Bleu Edited by: Lord Bleu on 13/11/2007 16:00:10Anyway After spending a year glued to the PC grinding on stupid monsters and doing other pointless tasks I achieved my goal of being a Jedi. One month later SOE announced NGE and they made an enemy of me and thousands of more players by wiping out the hard investment literally overnight.. Even now I refuse to play a SOE game, and I never will, nor will any of my kids snip Or am I wrong? You're wrong. The NGE was forced upon SOE devs by management from Lucas Arts. In fact, many of the people that worked on SWG after the NGE went into affect kept trying to change some things back to the way things were before, but Lucas Arts would not let them. So to re-cap, don't blame SOE for the NGE. Blame the source, Lucas Arts.
Kirren D'marr	Posted - 2007.11.13 21:24:00 - [27] Edited by: Kirren D''marr on 13/11/2007 21:25:06 Originally by: Turin Originally by: Tarminic ...People legitimately suggesting that the carrier nerf is comparable to SWG's NGE are either nuts or extremely immature. At this point it's like Godwin's law. The issue here isnt JUST that carriers are being nerfed. They are pretty much going insane with nerfs this next patch. I doubt any patch in all of EVE will contain as many nerfs as the next patch. They are doing everything they can to dummy down the game so that the avg 3-4 month old player is on par with the avg 3-4 year players. This is wrong IMO. Its the same thing SOE did, and it destroyed their game. The only legitimate comparison that might be made between SOE and CCP is a question of how well they listen to their cutomers about content or just force their own ideas on the game regardless of how well they are received, but even this is highly debatable. Stating that the upcoming changes to EVE are anything like the NGE is absolutely ludicrous. The very fact that we are discussing and debating these changes before they go live makes the two events vastly different. The NGE was not just about changing the Jedi class, or a lot of nerfs, it was about a change to the core mechanics of the game. The equivalent in EVE would be if carriers, along with all other existing ships, were removed from the game and replaced with ships fairly identical to each other, while at the same time making the interface twitch-based, and then removing the entire set of skills available in game and making completely new and unkown skills in their place. These skills would fall into a bare handful of categories such as "combat", "mining", "trading", and "building." Veteran players would be allowed to use their existing skill points to purchase skills from the new list, but you could no longer take skills from multiple categories, you would have to pick one and only one and that would be the limit of your character. So a combat pilot would be good at nothing but combat, a miner would only mine. All these changes would be made with only two weeks of prior notice, with no face to face discussions with the devs regarding the issue, only vague public comments saying "we know what's best for the game, so trust us! We know it's not the same as what you bought and continued to pay for, but you will like this better because we say you will!" Meanwhile, they ignore any protests from the community and dismiss such as the complaints of the "vocal minority." These changes would have been a major project at CCP for a year in advance, but would have been kept completely secret from the game community. The whole time the project was being worked on, the devs and company reps would continue to pacify the players by promising to fix game breaking bugs and announcing new content that was supposed to be implemented at launch but is "definetely in the works" and "will be here soon" for months on end, all the time knowing that they will never deliver on these promises because there is no need, as it will all be obsolete once the big change is ready. This is what CCP would have to do to match what SOE did with the NGE. Until such time as these events or similar take place, I call for a moriatorium on comparing the carrier nerf, or any other nerf or changes, to the SWG: NGE. Doing so demonstrates the height of ignorance. By all means, compare and analyze the two companies' business models and their customer relations to your heart's content. I've seen many opinions both ways on this issue, and it is obviously up for debate. But saying the coming changes to EVE are the same as the NGE is pure hyperbole, and it shows that you truly do not know what the NGE really was and are only repeating what you have heard from others in a poor attempt to give meaning to your otherwise empty words.
Niccolado Starwalker Shadow Templars	Posted - 2007.11.13 21:26:00 - [28] Originally by: Reto Originally by: John Blackthorn For those of us that didn't play the game what change did they make to the Jedi? theres a wiki article about it aswell. just wiki NGE or SOE or Starwars Galaxies. in short: they eliminated the hard work of a load of players overnight by simply allowing everyone to become a jedi, the strongest and most hard to achieve profession in swg. it was very like giving every novize player the option to start as a titan pilot form the beginning of their eve experience. SOE degraded SWG to a game for 12-year-olds without any direction or complexity thus mutating it into a dumb and uninteresting soulless moneymaking merchandise. Exactly!! I wont get into to deep explanation of it, but 2 years of hard consentrated work getting jedi where overnight turned into a starting profession.. Its not good. Its not the way of treating customers. Not to mention they removed lots of the skills, effects from it, and lot of other things giving the profession the soul it once had! Alpha class aint bad if it had consequenses, and so had Jedi, but people whined and whined - mostly brainless and clueless kids - and we then saw the result from it: SWG now just a shadow of what it once was. Sarah McTeef: You all should really try and stay on topic. Which when I last checked, was my grocery list
Tarminic Forsaken Resistance	Posted - 2007.11.13 21:44:00 - [29] Edited by: Tarminic on 13/11/2007 21:48:09 Originally by: Davlin Lotze Out of game balancing will result in such a huge change in player net worths in terms of some supercap pilots, that one is left to wonder whether all SOE nerfs combined could ever approach 1/10th of the impact of these pending changes? I was forced to quit because the changes basically destroyed around 55 bil in wealth I had tied up in supercaps. I own two motherships that are now more or less useless. No one forced you to quit - in all honesty a wise investor would have diversified instead of sinking all his wealth in a single ship that people had been calling to nerf for months. However, can I have your stuff? EDIT: Also, I don't think you can make any kind of comparison between EVE and SWG, there are simply too many differences. ---------------- Tarminic - 29 Million SP in ~~pink~~ Forum Warfare
Kirren D'marr	Posted - 2007.11.13 21:45:00 - [30] Originally by: Davlin Lotze I think you are 100% correct. But that doesn't seem to warrant much these days. Out of game balancing will result in such a huge change in player net worths in terms of some supercap pilots, that one is left to wonder whether all SOE nerfs combined could ever approach 1/10th of the impact of these pending changes? ... Wow, you've got it completely backwards. The EVE changes don't approach 1/10th of what SOE did, go back and read a few posts up here. You obviously never played SWG during the big change, so please stop making assumptions about what SOE did.



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