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Angel DeMorphis
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Posted - 2007.11.14 21:56:00 -
[31]
Originally by: shinsushi Its not dumbing down eve, its decreasing the amount of stupid micromanagement needed. Sure, people should wake up @ 2 a.m. to complete a skill, or stay logged on for hours upon hours a week to get those 3-6 hour skills done. I thought a big bonus to eve's skill system was to get away from the grind?
No, you needn't do that. (And if you do, I feel sorry for you.) Not to hard to set a > 8 hour skill to train before you go to bed, set another (or keep the same) for when you head off to work. Those nights you stay home, set a 3 - 6 hour skill when you get home, switch it when it finishes. Train the ~ 1 hour skills or less when you're playing.
Not that a skill queue wouldn't be good for the players. (I got chewed out by a crabby wife the other day when after work I said I wanted to go straight home so I could switch skills, instead of heading straight to the parents for the night.) But if you feel you have to wake up at 2 a.m. to switch skills, I really do feel sorry for you. |
Dray
Caldari Spartan Industries Cruel Intentions
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Posted - 2007.11.14 22:08:00 -
[32]
I must admit a limited skill queue works for me, maybe a limit of 3 skills in the queue sounds fine.
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Nicho Void
Gallente Hyper-Nova
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Posted - 2007.11.14 22:10:00 -
[33]
Originally by: shinsushi Its not dumbing down eve, its decreasing the amount of stupid micromanagement needed. Sure, people should wake up @ 2 a.m. to complete a skill, or stay logged on for hours upon hours a week to get those 3-6 hour skills done. I thought a big bonus to eve's skill system was to get away from the grind?
Some added points to the response above mine:
This argument has nothing to do with decreasing the grind of Eve. The core of this argument is, "Tommy has a red fire engine, so I should get one too!"
It's a very, very basic concept; if you are unable or unwilling to log into a game to advance your skills, you cannot expect to have the same skills as the people who can.
First we allow players to change skills without being in game, because if I have to miss a skill change due to RL when other players don't, there's a problem.
Next we allow players to monitor trade orders, because after all, if someone undercuts me while I'm sleeping, that's just not fair!
After that, people will be able to trigger faction spawns on demand, because honestly, Cpt Awesome got one when he ratted for 3 days straight and I had to work. Unfair.
When Lord NoLife generates 2 billion isk in a 2 day period, I demand my wallet to increase by the same amount, because I had to log off to go to grandma's.
...no. Play the game.
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benzss
Templar Securities and Holdings Axiom Empire
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Posted - 2007.11.14 22:11:00 -
[34]
It'd be nice to be able to set current skill and one further skill to be trained afterward. That's hardly a 'queue' and will work well for power outages/emergences/holidays etc, plus won't give much of an incentive to play the game AFK. Plus you'd have to log in to set a new 'queue'.
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Xaen
Caldari Caldari Provisions
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Posted - 2007.11.14 22:31:00 -
[35]
Originally by: Fink Angel Because you currently have to think. To plan the training around your availability, downtime etc.
You train short skill while you're logged in playing, medium skills overnight or when you go to work, long skills when your going on holiday.
With a skill queue and a new character, I'll buy the skillbook, set all the learning skills to train, and come back in a few weeks with it all done.
Easy mode = dumbing down.
Not very bloody helpful when you have not long skills available to train, now is it?
The whole benefit of a skill training system that doesn't require an in-game grind is that you don't have to be attendant to the game to "level up". However, the lack of a skill queue nerfs those benefits into oblivion for all skill plans that have no long skills currently trainable. This even applies to veteran characters like Xaen here and especially to newbies. -- Support fixing the EVE UI | Suggest Jita fixes
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Siresa Talesi
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Posted - 2007.11.14 23:35:00 -
[36]
Originally by: Nicho Void
Originally by: Fink Angel No to skill queue. It's just dumbing down Eve.
Character transfers should be banned too. And GTC <> ISK trades too.
If you don't personally put the work in for something, you shouldn't have it.
QFT.
The concept of playing the game without having to play the game is absolutely astounding to me. We need to stop catering to the instant gratification mentality.
No to changing a skill anywhere but in game (playing the game outside of the game). No to being able to queue up skills (having the game play for you). No to character transfers (another person plays the game for you). No to Money -> GTC -> isk flow (buying the game).
It's hardly catering to instant gratification, you still have to put in the same amount of training time to get the skills done. Rather it's catering to those with lives and obligations who may not be able to log in every day or every 8 hours. There's things like work, school, and family members who tend to feel neglected if you're constantly rushing off to do something on a computer game. I don't think that a skill queue is crucial, but it would be a wonderful convenience for the "casual gamer." EVE's skill system is described as relying on real-time to improve, nowhere does it state that you have to put in required game-time, so the idea that this shouldn't be allowed because "you have to put int the time to manually change skills" is counter to the whole system.
Oh, and for those arguing that this will lead to automation of the entire game, that's a pretty weak argument, you're really stretching things.
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Lilian Long
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Posted - 2007.11.14 23:46:00 -
[37]
Originally by: Xaen
Originally by: Fink Angel Because you currently have to think. To plan the training around your availability, downtime etc.
You train short skill while you're logged in playing, medium skills overnight or when you go to work, long skills when your going on holiday.
With a skill queue and a new character, I'll buy the skillbook, set all the learning skills to train, and come back in a few weeks with it all done.
Easy mode = dumbing down.
Not very bloody helpful when you have not long skills available to train, now is it?
The whole benefit of a skill training system that doesn't require an in-game grind is that you don't have to be attendant to the game to "level up". However, the lack of a skill queue nerfs those benefits into oblivion for all skill plans that have no long skills currently trainable. This even applies to veteran characters like Xaen here and especially to newbies.
I agree. Making plans like: 'I need to be at home at a certain time and log into EVE for a minute just to set a new skill.' seems just a bit too nerdy imho. Can't believe that people think that this is an effort that makes a 'good' EVE player and that that needs to be rewarded. Ok, that's just my view and I don't really care about my lost SP anymore, because I haven't any urgent goals anymore skill-wise. I often train some rather uninteresting skill to lvl.5, because then I don't have to buy a new skill and don't have to go through the rediculous part of needing to be there to switch to a new skill after maybe 45 minutes to 8 hours. I prefer skills with 10 days plus noadays. Then it doesn't hurt, if I lose 1 or 2 days, which is quite annoying with a 1 hour skill.
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Ed Anger
Weekly World News
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Posted - 2007.11.14 23:50:00 -
[38]
10000 time ive seen this thread. do it already.
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Mithrantir Ob'lontra
Gallente Ixion Defence Systems The Cyrene Initiative
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Posted - 2007.11.14 23:55:00 -
[39]
Skill queue of 1 skill training and 1 more waiting to be trained (especially if it's not a new skill, but one already trained to at least lv1)? I agree and like that. Being able to change the skill from web browser? No i don't think i like that.
The last one would make most people never log on until they have about 20 million or so skill points, thinking they are veterans, while at the same time they wouldn't know nothing of the game.
------- Nobody can be exactly like me. Even I have trouble doing it. |
Fink Angel
Caldari The Merry Men
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Posted - 2007.11.14 23:56:00 -
[40]
Originally by: Xaen Not very bloody helpful when you have not long skills available to train, now is it?
The whole benefit of a skill training system that doesn't require an in-game grind is that you don't have to be attendant to the game to "level up". However, the lack of a skill queue nerfs those benefits into oblivion for all skill plans that have no long skills currently trainable. This even applies to veteran characters like Xaen here and especially to newbies.
I simply don't believe what you're saying there.
After a couple of weeks in game, you should have a mix of short / medium / long skills available at any point.
At this very moment ... goes to browse char ... I can pick anything from 25 minutes to 33 days.
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Fink Angel
Caldari The Merry Men
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Posted - 2007.11.15 00:01:00 -
[41]
Edited by: Fink Angel on 15/11/2007 00:01:16
Originally by: Siresa Talesi Rather it's catering to those with lives and obligations who may not be able to log in every day or every 8 hours. There's things like work, school, and family members who tend to feel neglected if you're constantly rushing off to do something on a computer game.
Where are all these 8 hour skills people think are getting in the way of life?
I don't revolve my life around Eve, yet don't have a problem with setting skills.
I'm about to go to bed and have an hour and 23 minutes left on a skill. Golly gosh, what do I do?
Well, I'll put in a skill for either 8 hours to change in the morning or 20 hours when I come home from work, or a few days to a week and worry about it much later.
Every so often I lose a few hours worth of SPs here and there, and you know what, I don't really care too much.
Edit: spelling
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Leora Nomen
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Posted - 2007.11.15 00:14:00 -
[42]
Originally by: Fink Angel
Originally by: Leora Nomen How does doing this 'work' instead of having a skill queue do it for you dumb down EVE?
Because you currently have to think. To plan the training around your availability, downtime etc. You train short skill while you're logged in playing, medium skills overnight or when you go to work, long skills when your going on holiday. With a skill queue and a new character, I'll buy the skillbook, set all the learning skills to train, and come back in a few weeks with it all done. Easy mode = dumbing down.
Man i have no idea how much thinking you put into your skill training, but for me the process of skill change takes exactly 1 thought "my skill is ending soon / has ended" and about 10 seconds to switch it. Anyone with an IQ above 70 would be able to formulate this exact same thought and perform the same actions. The process of logging on and planning around my schedule is a hassle, a grind, a repetitive task i have to do once in a while. It is not intellectually stimulating in any way and it does not make me be better at EVE. In addition, being stuck in traffic after work, or my computer dying, or yet another unscheduled server downtime has nothing to do with how well I was thinking before setting skill training in motion yet I still get penalized for it.
What I was asking is for a limited queue system that has only one emergency skill pugged in, not that you can just walk away and let the skill train for weeks. And even if you could, i still don't see how it will make you any smarter at EVE because I always though it is what skill plan you compile not how apt you are at logging on that counts.
guide to game time codes |
Fink Angel
Caldari The Merry Men
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Posted - 2007.11.15 00:22:00 -
[43]
Originally by: Leora Nomen What I was asking is for a limited queue system that has only one emergency skill pugged in, not that you can just walk away and let the skill train for weeks.
Yes, sorry for ignoring your first part of your post.
You'll note later I posted in agreement with the "one skill queued" idea.
It's a queue of a years worth of skills to plop out a cookie cutter character at the end that I have a problem with.
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Siresa Talesi
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Posted - 2007.11.15 00:24:00 -
[44]
Originally by: Fink Angel Edited by: Fink Angel on 15/11/2007 00:01:16
Originally by: Siresa Talesi Rather it's catering to those with lives and obligations who may not be able to log in every day or every 8 hours. There's things like work, school, and family members who tend to feel neglected if you're constantly rushing off to do something on a computer game.
Where are all these 8 hour skills people think are getting in the way of life?
I don't revolve my life around Eve, yet don't have a problem with setting skills.
I'm about to go to bed and have an hour and 23 minutes left on a skill. Golly gosh, what do I do?
Well, I'll put in a skill for either 8 hours to change in the morning or 20 hours when I come home from work, or a few days to a week and worry about it much later.
Every so often I lose a few hours worth of SPs here and there, and you know what, I don't really care too much.
Edit: spelling
That's assuming that you're already logged into the game, or can log into the game, everytime this happens. That you log into the game when you get up in the morning, when you get home from work, and before you go to bed. I'm sorry, but I don't define my life by the needs of a computer game. Frankly, I'd rather not have to log in more than a couple nights a week. But I guess some of us have lives.
I'd be really interested to see a breakdown of people on both sides of this issue according to age, employment, marital status, and whether they have kids, etc. I think the results would be very telling.
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Fink Angel
Caldari The Merry Men
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Posted - 2007.11.15 00:40:00 -
[45]
Originally by: Siresa Talesi That's assuming that you're already logged into the game, or can log into the game, everytime this happens. That you log into the game when you get up in the morning, when you get home from work, and before you go to bed. I'm sorry, but I don't define my life by the needs of a computer game. Frankly, I'd rather not have to log in more than a couple nights a week. But I guess some of us have lives.
I'd be really interested to see a breakdown of people on both sides of this issue according to age, employment, marital status, and whether they have kids, etc. I think the results would be very telling.
LOL, someone always throws the "you don't have lives" thing into the mix! Do you just log in a couple of times a week to train? When / how often do you play the game?
My life certainly doesn't revolve around Eve.
Note I posted 8 hours / 20 hours / a few days ... depends what I'm planning on doing TBH.
When I am indoors, it takes me 3 minutes to log in to change skills in the morning or evening. I'm still failing to see the issue here.
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Leora Nomen
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Posted - 2007.11.15 01:20:00 -
[46]
Originally by: Nicho Void
Originally by: shinsushi Its not dumbing down eve, its decreasing the amount of stupid micromanagement needed. Sure, people should wake up @ 2 a.m. to complete a skill, or stay logged on for hours upon hours a week to get those 3-6 hour skills done. I thought a big bonus to eve's skill system was to get away from the grind?
Some added points to the response above mine:
This argument has nothing to do with decreasing the grind of Eve. The core of this argument is, "Tommy has a red fire engine, so I should get one too!"
It's a very, very basic concept; if you are unable or unwilling to log into a game to advance your skills, you cannot expect to have the same skills as the people who can.
First we allow players to change skills without being in game, because if I have to miss a skill change due to RL when other players don't, there's a problem.
Next we allow players to monitor trade orders, because after all, if someone undercuts me while I'm sleeping, that's just not fair!
After that, people will be able to trigger faction spawns on demand, because honestly, Cpt Awesome got one when he ratted for 3 days straight and I had to work. Unfair.
When Lord NoLife generates 2 billion isk in a 2 day period, I demand my wallet to increase by the same amount, because I had to log off to go to grandma's.
...no. Play the game.
Actually, this point you raise is a weakeness of any MMO game, not a stregth that we have to capitalize on - that people don't all have the same time to play it. EVE is a pvp game and that's what makes it exciting. In any areas be it mining or the market or combat or missions running, you're competing against other players. Many people would agree with me that the fun of this game is that it allows you to compete against other real human opponents. And such competition is best if we all have equal footing in this game. The fact that we can't all play the same time introduces unfairenss into the game and transposes real life factors into a role playing MMO where in ideal this should not be happening. The fact that the time you spend online can directly reflect into your success in game is not its virture - it's a flaw. EVE would be much better if it was only your player skill and your own ideas that would let you win over your opponents - not that you have 40 free hours each week to play and grind up a pile of XXX isk and the other guy has only 5, or that you have deep enough wallet in real life to afford twenty GTCs to sell each week while other guys can barely afford monthly subscirption.
Introducing a skill queue would be one thing that would help even out this unfairness and prevent real life of getting in the way of virtual world. Changing skills does not require any thought process, any insight on the same, any pvp play - just one thought and a couple clicks with a mouse. By making all players have equal footing at least in this respect, the game will be made more fair.
guide to game time codes |
Tortun Nahme
Minmatar Heimatar Services Conglomerate
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Posted - 2007.11.15 01:24:00 -
[47]
strawman argument at it's finest
Originally by: Surfin's PlunderBunny Edited by: Surfin''s PlunderBunny on 04/11/2007 21:34:44 *EDIT* You know what, Tortun has this one under control...*
*Basks in the chaos of this thread |
dmosbarge1
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Posted - 2007.11.15 03:59:00 -
[48]
Eve implements skill queue which moves on to the next level of the skill when it finishes the current level. -I set BS 1 and go afk for 2 months. Log on, set Advanced Spaceship Command 1 and log off for 2 more months. Log on, set Gallente Carrier 1 and log off for 4 months. Etc.
Eve implements a one-skill-deep skill queue. -I set BS 5 and ASC 5 in my queue and go afk for 4 months.
I don't see either of these as being good for the game.
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Xaen
Caldari Caldari Provisions
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Posted - 2007.11.15 04:49:00 -
[49]
Originally by: Fink Angel
Originally by: Xaen Not very bloody helpful when you have not long skills available to train, now is it?
The whole benefit of a skill training system that doesn't require an in-game grind is that you don't have to be attendant to the game to "level up". However, the lack of a skill queue nerfs those benefits into oblivion for all skill plans that have no long skills currently trainable. This even applies to veteran characters like Xaen here and especially to newbies.
I simply don't believe what you're saying there.
After a couple of weeks in game, you should have a mix of short / medium / long skills available at any point.
At this very moment ... goes to browse char ... I can pick anything from 25 minutes to 33 days.
Ok, I'll give you an example then. I have an alt that I want to complete a fairly length skill plan for. It'll take about 45 days.
Right now I need a skill that is at least 18 hours to get me through sleep tonight and work tomorrow. You know how many skills in my plan that are trainable right now, and will last that long? Two. Warhead Updgrades III and Scout Drone Operation IV. And if I hadn't sat here and babysat Scout Drone Operation III tonight I would only have one.
There were several days where I had zero skills that would get me over the work/sleep hump and so I had to choose between training some skill that wasn't in the plan (and hence not very useful/important) and losing training time. For a game that is supposed to level you without grinding not being able to queue at least two skills is a pretty asinine drawback. -- Support fixing the EVE UI | Suggest Jita fixes
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Fanjita
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Posted - 2007.11.15 04:50:00 -
[50]
Originally by: Cpt Fina Yeah a skillqueue would be very nice. What are a new player supposed to train when he's on a 2 week vacation?
the same thing new players trained in 2003 when eve first started probably
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Chockcat
Gallente Federal Navy Academy
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Posted - 2007.11.15 04:54:00 -
[51]
Originally by: Fink Angel No to skill queue. It's just dumbing down Eve.
Character transfers should be banned too. And GTC <> ISK trades too.
If you don't personally put the work in for something, you shouldn't have it.
Agreed. I am already tired of these MAC lamers. |
Solbright altalt
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Posted - 2007.11.15 05:09:00 -
[52]
Standing thread - Skill Queue
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Orcrus
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Posted - 2007.11.15 05:12:00 -
[53]
Character Farmers ALREADY use a macro system to train their skills why can't we get a legal one? I mean what the hell even if it was just one skill For when your servers go down unexpectedly lol to be fair I haven't seen one of those in a month or two but my point is still valid.\
The Macroer's could give less then a rats ass about a skill queue THEY ALREADY HAVE ONE. |
Danton Marcellus
Nebula Rasa Holdings
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Posted - 2007.11.15 05:57:00 -
[54]
If you can't manually manage your skills while logged in to play the game you're not fit to live.
Should/would/could have, HAVE you chav!
Also Known As |
cal nereus
Perkone
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Posted - 2007.11.15 06:01:00 -
[55]
Instead of a skill queue, how about the ability to train two skills at once but at half-speed... that way, if your internet dies on you or you get kidnapped by ninjas, you can have at least one long skill training all the time just in case. ---
Join BH-DL Skills |
cal nereus
Perkone
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Posted - 2007.11.15 06:02:00 -
[56]
Originally by: Danton Marcellus If you can't manually manage your skills while logged in to play the game you're not fit to live.
The problem isn't managing skills while logged in. The problem is managing them when your internet dies, or some other unforeseen problem occurs preventing you from accessing Eve in order to make the necessary skill changes. ---
Join BH-DL Skills |
Surfin's PlunderBunny
Minmatar mUfFiN fAcToRy
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Posted - 2007.11.15 06:04:00 -
[57]
Originally by: Orcrus Character Farmers ALREADY use a macro system to train their skills why can't we get a legal one? I mean what the hell even if it was just one skill For when your servers go down unexpectedly lol to be fair I haven't seen one of those in a month or two but my point is still valid.\
The Macroer's could give less then a rats ass about a skill queue THEY ALREADY HAVE ONE.
I sell characters... yes, the adorable Plunderbunny you all love and respect () sells characters! How do I do it? I log into the alt account and change the character's skills! Please don't accuse me of stupid **** with an alt and proof or stfu
Originally by: Liz Kali Tic Toc Tic Toc , time is ticking
I owned someone on forums!!! |
Chinua Suren
Minmatar Republic Military School
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Posted - 2007.11.15 08:44:00 -
[58]
Originally by: Siresa Talesi That's assuming that you're already logged into the game, or can log into the game, everytime this happens. That you log into the game when you get up in the morning, when you get home from work, and before you go to bed.
If you can't find the time to log in for less than 20 seconds once a day before going to work, or perhaps a few times later on when you're home, you shouldn't play this game. If you care that you sometimes loose a few hours training time you take EVE too seriously. If your family gets ****ed off that you sometimes spend an amazing 20 seconds changing skills they need therapy.
I personally have interests outside EVE, I live with my girfriend, have all my friends in another city (lots of away and travel time for me), attend full time studies, work after said studies and walk my dog for at least two hours a day. Most of the day I'm not home. I still manage, without any problem at all, to keep my skill training smooth and almost uninterrupted. If you can't be arsed to log in for a few seconds in the morning/evening go play something else, sorry.
--- None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free. û Goethe |
Chinua Suren
Minmatar Republic Military School
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Posted - 2007.11.15 08:45:00 -
[59]
Originally by: cal nereus
Originally by: Danton Marcellus If you can't manually manage your skills while logged in to play the game you're not fit to live.
The problem isn't managing skills while logged in. The problem is managing them when your internet dies, or some other unforeseen problem occurs preventing you from accessing Eve in order to make the necessary skill changes.
The real problem is that you even care if you miss some hours of training. Geeze...contrary to popular belief EVE is just a GAME.
--- None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free. û Goethe |
Plutoinum
German Cyberdome Corp Cult of War
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Posted - 2007.11.15 11:46:00 -
[60]
Edited by: Plutoinum on 15/11/2007 11:56:19 Edited by: Plutoinum on 15/11/2007 11:48:19 If eve allowed you to set two skills, it would be better. Then you could set a short one and a long one and you could train those skills that finish in less than 24 hours without much hassle. Currently they are annoying to train.
And setting 2 long skills and staying away from eve isn't really a problem, because they could limit it, like:
1) if the first skill is longer than x-days, you can't set a second one 2) or if the total training time would exceed x-days, you can't set that 2nd skill 3) or if you set a second skill and your account runs out before the 2nd skill starts, it doesn't train or gets removed again, when you log in for the first time after your break ( just a question, what's more convenient for the database and easier to achieve )
I tend to version 2 though, because it's just easy to implement and doesn't run into trouble, if you abort one of the skills and want to set another one instead, because it doesn't make a difference between 1st and second skill.
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