Originally by: Malcanis

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character farmers can use macros anyway.

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Originally by: Mr Broker

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ban character trading

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Originally by: Valrandir

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Adding this would increase the existing character farming by a lot, making characters cheaper to buy and so buying and tradinc characters would become more common, which is bad since it remove identity and uniqueness.

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Originally by: Fink Angel

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No to skill queue. It's just dumbing down Eve.
Character transfers should be banned too. And GTC <> ISK trades too.
If you don't personally put the work in for something, you shouldn't have it.

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Originally by: Fink Angel

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No to skill queue. It's just dumbing down Eve.

Character transfers should be banned too. And GTC <> ISK trades too.

If you don't personally put the work in for something, you shouldn't have it.

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Originally by: Valrandir

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Adding this would increase the existing character farming by a lot, making characters cheaper to buy and so buying and tradinc characters would become more common, which is bad since it remove identity and uniqueness.

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Originally by: MotherMoon

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some will be cuaght others will not.

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Originally by: Leora Nomen

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How does doing this 'work' instead of having a skill queue do it for you dumb down EVE?

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Originally by: shinsushi

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I thought a big bonus to eve's skill system was to get away from the grind?

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Originally by: Fink Angel

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Originally by: Leora Nomen

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How does doing this 'work' instead of having a skill queue do it for you dumb down EVE?

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Because you currently have to think. To plan the training around your availability, downtime etc.

You train short skill while you're logged in playing, medium skills overnight or when you go to work, long skills when your going on holiday.

With a skill queue and a new character, I'll buy the skillbook, set all the learning skills to train, and come back in a few weeks with it all done.

Easy mode = dumbing down.

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Originally by: Fink Angel

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Sorry to sound like a parent, but to bang out the old phrase "Just because some people do that, it doesn't make it alright or mean everyone else should do it".

Why not macro the whole game in that case? I find targetting rats and pressing F1-F8 very dull, and it's such a grind to get ISK this way.

... how far do we go?

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Originally by: MotherMoon

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well you have a point there, but I don't see what is wrong with a simple you can que up two skills in a row or even just the one idea of I can change my skills from a website because I can't get to school.. you know what I mean?

yeah I don't like the idea of insta skill 24/7, I just said it would be interesting.

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Originally by: Ser Prius

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... My recommendation is to simply NOT DISCONTINUE TRAINING A SKILL AT EACH LEVEL, if you finish level 1 go on to 2, 3, 4, and 5 without stopping. If you get to the end of Level 5 then it will stop just as it does right now.

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Originally by: Fink Angel

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Originally by: MotherMoon

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well you have a point there, but I don't see what is wrong with a simple you can que up two skills in a row or even just the one idea of I can change my skills from a website because I can't get to school.. you know what I mean?

yeah I don't like the idea of insta skill 24/7, I just said it would be interesting.

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I can't see a major problem with queuing up one skill. I'm against dumping an Evemon queue into the game, walking away and coming back a year later with a fully baked character.

That system is for people who call their characters "toons".

An Eve character should be lovingly nurtured along every step of their piloting career.

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Originally by: Fink Angel

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No to skill queue. It's just dumbing down Eve.

Character transfers should be banned too. And GTC <> ISK trades too.

If you don't personally put the work in for something, you shouldn't have it.

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Originally by: shinsushi

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Its not dumbing down eve, its decreasing the amount of stupid micromanagement needed. Sure, people should wake up @ 2 a.m. to complete a skill, or stay logged on for hours upon hours a week to get those 3-6 hour skills done. I thought a big bonus to eve's skill system was to get away from the grind?

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Originally by: shinsushi

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Its not dumbing down eve, its decreasing the amount of stupid micromanagement needed. Sure, people should wake up @ 2 a.m. to complete a skill, or stay logged on for hours upon hours a week to get those 3-6 hour skills done. I thought a big bonus to eve's skill system was to get away from the grind?

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Originally by: Fink Angel

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Because you currently have to think. To plan the training around your availability, downtime etc.

You train short skill while you're logged in playing, medium skills overnight or when you go to work, long skills when your going on holiday.

With a skill queue and a new character, I'll buy the skillbook, set all the learning skills to train, and come back in a few weeks with it all done.

Easy mode = dumbing down.

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Originally by: Nicho Void

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Originally by: Fink Angel

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No to skill queue. It's just dumbing down Eve.

Character transfers should be banned too. And GTC <> ISK trades too.

If you don't personally put the work in for something, you shouldn't have it.

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QFT.

The concept of playing the game without having to play the game is absolutely astounding to me. We need to stop catering to the instant gratification mentality.

No to changing a skill anywhere but in game (playing the game outside of the game).
No to being able to queue up skills (having the game play for you).
No to character transfers (another person plays the game for you).
No to Money -> GTC -> isk flow (buying the game).

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Originally by: Xaen

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Originally by: Fink Angel

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Because you currently have to think. To plan the training around your availability, downtime etc.

You train short skill while you're logged in playing, medium skills overnight or when you go to work, long skills when your going on holiday.

With a skill queue and a new character, I'll buy the skillbook, set all the learning skills to train, and come back in a few weeks with it all done.

Easy mode = dumbing down.

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Not very bloody helpful when you have not long skills available to train, now is it?

The whole benefit of a skill training system that doesn't require an in-game grind is that you don't have to be attendant to the game to "level up". However, the lack of a skill queue nerfs those benefits into oblivion for all skill plans that have no long skills currently trainable. This even applies to veteran characters like Xaen here and especially to newbies.

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Originally by: Xaen

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Not very bloody helpful when you have not long skills available to train, now is it?

The whole benefit of a skill training system that doesn't require an in-game grind is that you don't have to be attendant to the game to "level up". However, the lack of a skill queue nerfs those benefits into oblivion for all skill plans that have no long skills currently trainable. This even applies to veteran characters like Xaen here and especially to newbies.

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Originally by: Siresa Talesi

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Rather it's catering to those with lives and obligations who may not be able to log in every day or every 8 hours. There's things like work, school, and family members who tend to feel neglected if you're constantly rushing off to do something on a computer game.

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Originally by: Fink Angel

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Originally by: Leora Nomen

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How does doing this 'work' instead of having a skill queue do it for you dumb down EVE?

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Because you currently have to think. To plan the training around your availability, downtime etc.
You train short skill while you're logged in playing, medium skills overnight or when you go to work, long skills when your going on holiday.
With a skill queue and a new character, I'll buy the skillbook, set all the learning skills to train, and come back in a few weeks with it all done.
Easy mode = dumbing down.

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Originally by: Leora Nomen

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What I was asking is for a limited queue system that has only one emergency skill pugged in, not that you can just walk away and let the skill train for weeks.

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Originally by: Fink Angel

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Edited by: Fink Angel on 15/11/2007 00:01:16

Originally by: Siresa Talesi

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Rather it's catering to those with lives and obligations who may not be able to log in every day or every 8 hours. There's things like work, school, and family members who tend to feel neglected if you're constantly rushing off to do something on a computer game.

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Where are all these 8 hour skills people think are getting in the way of life?

I don't revolve my life around Eve, yet don't have a problem with setting skills.

I'm about to go to bed and have an hour and 23 minutes left on a skill. Golly gosh, what do I do?

Well, I'll put in a skill for either 8 hours to change in the morning or 20 hours when I come home from work, or a few days to a week and worry about it much later.

Every so often I lose a few hours worth of SPs here and there, and you know what, I don't really care too much.

Edit: spelling

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Originally by: Siresa Talesi

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That's assuming that you're already logged into the game, or can log into the game, everytime this happens. That you log into the game when you get up in the morning, when you get home from work, and before you go to bed. I'm sorry, but I don't define my life by the needs of a computer game. Frankly, I'd rather not have to log in more than a couple nights a week. But I guess some of us have lives.

I'd be really interested to see a breakdown of people on both sides of this issue according to age, employment, marital status, and whether they have kids, etc. I think the results would be very telling.

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Originally by: Nicho Void

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Originally by: shinsushi

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Its not dumbing down eve, its decreasing the amount of stupid micromanagement needed. Sure, people should wake up @ 2 a.m. to complete a skill, or stay logged on for hours upon hours a week to get those 3-6 hour skills done. I thought a big bonus to eve's skill system was to get away from the grind?

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Some added points to the response above mine:

This argument has nothing to do with decreasing the grind of Eve. The core of this argument is, "Tommy has a red fire engine, so I should get one too!"

It's a very, very basic concept; if you are unable or unwilling to log into a game to advance your skills, you cannot expect to have the same skills as the people who can.

First we allow players to change skills without being in game, because if I have to miss a skill change due to RL when other players don't, there's a problem.

Next we allow players to monitor trade orders, because after all, if someone undercuts me while I'm sleeping, that's just not fair!

After that, people will be able to trigger faction spawns on demand, because honestly, Cpt Awesome got one when he ratted for 3 days straight and I had to work. Unfair.

When Lord NoLife generates 2 billion isk in a 2 day period, I demand my wallet to increase by the same amount, because I had to log off to go to grandma's.

...no. Play the game.

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Originally by: Surfin's PlunderBunny

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Edited by: Surfin''s PlunderBunny on 04/11/2007 21:34:44
*EDIT* You know what, Tortun has this one under control...*

*Basks in the chaos of this thread

Originally by: Fink Angel

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Originally by: Xaen

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Not very bloody helpful when you have not long skills available to train, now is it?

The whole benefit of a skill training system that doesn't require an in-game grind is that you don't have to be attendant to the game to "level up". However, the lack of a skill queue nerfs those benefits into oblivion for all skill plans that have no long skills currently trainable. This even applies to veteran characters like Xaen here and especially to newbies.

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I simply don't believe what you're saying there.

After a couple of weeks in game, you should have a mix of short / medium / long skills available at any point.

At this very moment ... goes to browse char ... I can pick anything from 25 minutes to 33 days.

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Originally by: Cpt Fina

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Yeah a skillqueue would be very nice.
What are a new player supposed to train when he's on a 2 week vacation?

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Originally by: Fink Angel

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No to skill queue. It's just dumbing down Eve.

Character transfers should be banned too. And GTC <> ISK trades too.

If you don't personally put the work in for something, you shouldn't have it.

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Originally by: Danton Marcellus

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If you can't manually manage your skills while logged in to play the game you're not fit to live.

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Originally by: Orcrus

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Character Farmers ALREADY use a macro system to train their skills why can't we get a legal one? I mean what the hell even if it was just one skill For when your servers go down unexpectedly lol to be fair I haven't seen one of those in a month or two but my point is still valid.\

The Macroer's could give less then a rats ass about a skill queue THEY ALREADY HAVE ONE.

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Originally by: Liz Kali

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Tic Toc Tic Toc , time is ticking

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I owned someone on forums!!!

Originally by: Siresa Talesi

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That's assuming that you're already logged into the game, or can log into the game, everytime this happens. That you log into the game when you get up in the morning, when you get home from work, and before you go to bed.

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Originally by: cal nereus

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Originally by: Danton Marcellus

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If you can't manually manage your skills while logged in to play the game you're not fit to live.

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The problem isn't managing skills while logged in. The problem is managing them when your internet dies, or some other unforeseen problem occurs preventing you from accessing Eve in order to make the necessary skill changes.

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Originally by: Orcrus

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Character Farmers ALREADY use a macro system to train their skills why can't we get a legal one?

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Originally by: Fink Angel

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It's a queue of a years worth of skills to plop out a cookie cutter character at the end that I have a problem with.

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Originally by: Delichon

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Because leaving skill-macroing a bannable offence allows to catch (and ban) at least some of Character Farmers.

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Originally by: Fink Angel

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Sorry to sound like a parent, but to bang out the old phrase "Just because some people do that, it doesn't make it alright or mean everyone else should do it".

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Quote:

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Why not macro the whole game in that case? I find targetting rats and pressing F1-F8 very dull, and it's such a grind to get ISK this way.

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Originally by: Leora Nomen

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Actually, this point you raise is a weakeness of any MMO game, not a stregth that we have to capitalize on - that people don't all have the same time to play it. EVE is a pvp game and that's what makes it exciting. In any areas be it mining or the market or combat or missions running, you're competing against other players. Many people would agree with me that the fun of this game is that it allows you to compete against other real human opponents. And such competition is best if we all have equal footing in this game. The fact that we can't all play the same time introduces unfairenss into the game and transposes real life factors into a role playing MMO where in ideal this should not be happening. The fact that the time you spend online can directly reflect into your success in game is not its virture - it's a flaw. EVE would be much better if it was only your player skill and your own ideas that would let you win over your opponents - not that you have 40 free hours each week to play and grind up a pile of XXX isk and the other guy has only 5, or that you have deep enough wallet in real life to afford twenty GTCs to sell each week while other guys can barely afford monthly subscirption.

Introducing a skill queue would be one thing that would help even out this unfairness and prevent real life of getting in the way of virtual world. Changing skills does not require any thought process, any insight on the same, any pvp play - just one thought and a couple clicks with a mouse. By making all players have equal footing at least in this respect, the game will be made more fair.

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Originally by: Turin

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The problem is, lately, your not carrying a nerf stick, but more like a small scale tactical nuclear nerf bomb.

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Originally by: MotherMoon

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but then... ebay... evil evil.

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Originally by: Fink Angel

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Originally by: Siresa Talesi

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That's assuming that you're already logged into the game, or can log into the game, everytime this happens. That you log into the game when you get up in the morning, when you get home from work, and before you go to bed. I'm sorry, but I don't define my life by the needs of a computer game. Frankly, I'd rather not have to log in more than a couple nights a week. But I guess some of us have lives.

I'd be really interested to see a breakdown of people on both sides of this issue according to age, employment, marital status, and whether they have kids, etc. I think the results would be very telling.

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LOL, someone always throws the "you don't have lives" thing into the mix! Do you just log in a couple of times a week to train? When / how often do you play the game?

My life certainly doesn't revolve around Eve.

Note I posted 8 hours / 20 hours / a few days ... depends what I'm planning on doing TBH.

When I am indoors, it takes me 3 minutes to log in to change skills in the morning or evening. I'm still failing to see the issue here.

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Originally by: Chinua Suren

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Originally by: Siresa Talesi

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...

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If you can't find the time to log in for less than 20 seconds once a day before going to work, or perhaps a few times later on when you're home, you shouldn't play this game. If you care that you sometimes loose a few hours training time you take EVE too seriously. If your family gets ****ed off that you sometimes spend an amazing 20 seconds changing skills they need therapy.

I personally have interests outside EVE, I live with my girfriend, have all my friends in another city (lots of away and travel time for me), attend full time studies, work after said studies and walk my dog for at least two hours a day. Most of the day I'm not home. I still manage, without any problem at all, to keep my skill training smooth and almost uninterrupted. If you can't be arsed to log in for a few seconds in the morning/evening go play something else, sorry.

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Originally by: Siresa Talesi

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Spoken like someone without any real family experience. I'm sorry, but "living with a girlfriend" and raisng a family are two entirely different things; one still allows you to be fairly self-centered. Suggesting that a family "needs therapy" because they don't appreciate being interrupted on a regular basis for something as trivial as a game, then you really have no clue what it's about.

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Originally by: Siresa Talesi

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Apparently, CCP agrees with the idea of having some form of remote access to skill training: read here. It will happen, because it will enable more subscribers to enjoy the game and potentially increase revenue.

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Originally by: Nicho Void

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Originally by: Leora Nomen

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Actually, this point you raise is a weakeness of any MMO game, not a stregth that we have to capitalize on - that people don't all have the same time to play it. EVE is a pvp game and that's what makes it exciting. In any areas be it mining or the market or combat or missions running, you're competing against other players. Many people would agree with me that the fun of this game is that it allows you to compete against other real human opponents. And such competition is best if we all have equal footing in this game. The fact that we can't all play the same time introduces unfairenss into the game and transposes real life factors into a role playing MMO where in ideal this should not be happening. The fact that the time you spend online can directly reflect into your success in game is not its virture - it's a flaw. EVE would be much better if it was only your player skill and your own ideas that would let you win over your opponents - not that you have 40 free hours each week to play and grind up a pile of XXX isk and the other guy has only 5, or that you have deep enough wallet in real life to afford twenty GTCs to sell each week while other guys can barely afford monthly subscirption.

Introducing a skill queue would be one thing that would help even out this unfairness and prevent real life of getting in the way of virtual world. Changing skills does not require any thought process, any insight on the same, any pvp play - just one thought and a couple clicks with a mouse. By making all players have equal footing at least in this respect, the game will be made more fair.

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I'm sorry, but I disagree entirely. The point of Eve is not to put everyone on equal footing and see who comes out on top. Have you been in combat recently? Everyone knows that if you find yourself in a fair fight, you planned your op wrong.

Skill training is exactly the same. Another form of PvP. If Player A makes sacrifices to be able to log on and change a skill at 4 in the morning, he should have an advantage over the players who do not. It's that simple.

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Originally by: Nicho Void

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Originally by: Siresa Talesi

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Spoken like someone without any real family experience. I'm sorry, but "living with a girlfriend" and raisng a family are two entirely different things; one still allows you to be fairly self-centered. Suggesting that a family "needs therapy" because they don't appreciate being interrupted on a regular basis for something as trivial as a game, then you really have no clue what it's about.

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Both of these arguments are irrelevant. Play the game or don't.

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Originally by: Nicho Void

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Originally by: Siresa Talesi

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Apparently, CCP agrees with the idea of having some form of remote access to skill training: read here. It will happen, because it will enable more subscribers to enjoy the game and potentially increase revenue.

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This is a different issue because Eve-Mobile implies that it will be a fully functional Eve client, not a stripped down way of switching skills from a web-browser. I'm completely OK with this idea because it still requires people to play the game.

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Originally by: Siresa Talesi

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I'll agree that the game should not directly "put everyone on equal footing," as in that case, there would be no advancement, we'd all have the same ships, and the game would get old fast. But any game has to have the opportunity for a fair setting, or many will not choose to play. What you argue gives an advantage to players who have more RL time to devote to a game over those who are more "casual" in their play. The whole RL-time-based training method is intended to level that aspect of the game. A skill queue or web-based control would only serve to improve this.

When games have an advantage for those who can devote a disproportionally greater amount of time to it, then it discourages those with less time from even playing. I know right now some of you are thinking "then they shouldn't play, and leave the game to the real gamers!" Thankfully, CCP is a business whose goal is profit, because whether you want "casual" players here or not, CCP wants as many players as it can get, and based on that it will take any action in the best interest of expanding the game. Something to remember is that regardless of how much time you put into the game, we're all paying the same subscription rate to CCP. Do you think they care who logs in more frequently to click a few buttons?

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Originally by: Fink Angel

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Originally by: Leora Nomen

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How does doing this 'work' instead of having a skill queue do it for you dumb down EVE?

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Because you currently have to think. To plan the training around your availability, downtime etc.

You train short skill while you're logged in playing, medium skills overnight or when you go to work, long skills when your going on holiday.

With a skill queue and a new character, I'll buy the skillbook, set all the learning skills to train, and come back in a few weeks with it all done.

Easy mode = dumbing down.

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Originally by: Siresa Talesi

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I never claimed I logged in a couple times a week only to train. I log in a coupple times a week, that is when I play for a few hours at a time. Frankly I think the idea that I should have to log into a game when I'm not playing is laughable.

I notice that while you laugh, you don't dispute the idea that you have few RL obligations to deal with. Interesting.

You are focusing on the relatively small amount of time it takes to physically change the skill. I'm more concerend with having to constatnly focus on a game by remembering when to take those 3 minutes to log in to change it. When I'm having dinner with my family, or out with friends, or at work, I should not have to be reminding myself "gotta get back on time to change that skill!" That's more involved than I want to be in a game. I'd favor it only requiring occasional management and then being able to leave it alone for say, up to a week at a time.

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Originally by: Fink Angel

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No to skill queue. It's just dumbing down Eve.

Character transfers should be banned too. And GTC <> ISK trades too.

If you don't personally put the work in for something, you shouldn't have it.

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Originally by: Nicho Void

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Originally by: Siresa Talesi

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I'll agree that the game should not directly "put everyone on equal footing," as in that case, there would be no advancement, we'd all have the same ships, and the game would get old fast. But any game has to have the opportunity for a fair setting, or many will not choose to play. What you argue gives an advantage to players who have more RL time to devote to a game over those who are more "casual" in their play. The whole RL-time-based training method is intended to level that aspect of the game. A skill queue or web-based control would only serve to improve this.

When games have an advantage for those who can devote a disproportionally greater amount of time to it, then it discourages those with less time from even playing. I know right now some of you are thinking "then they shouldn't play, and leave the game to the real gamers!" Thankfully, CCP is a business whose goal is profit, because whether you want "casual" players here or not, CCP wants as many players as it can get, and based on that it will take any action in the best interest of expanding the game. Something to remember is that regardless of how much time you put into the game, we're all paying the same subscription rate to CCP. Do you think they care who logs in more frequently to click a few buttons?

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I just don't think we're going to see eye to eye here.

The casual gamer you speak of, is not going to care that he missed a couple of hours of skill train time, and if he does, I argue that he's not a casual gamer at all. The hardcore gamers are the ones who are angry here. An unexpected downtime, internet failure, and kids get cited as reason why a skill queue is need. These will never be valid reasons for me because where then is the line drawn? Your kid woke up so you missed a skill change. Fine. Your car broke down. Your dog ate the cable. You wanted to watch The Office. You didn't feel like logging on.

I will continue to argue that the only way to change a skill should be from in-game. No person, for any reason, should be allowed to advance their character using an out-of-game mechanic.

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Originally by: Siresa Talesi

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For the record, I would be curious to know if you consider EVE mobile to be an in-game or out-of-game mechanic.

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Originally by: Orcrus

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Character Farmers ALREADY use a macro system to train their skills why can't we get a legal one?

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Originally by: Nicho Void

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Originally by: Siresa Talesi

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For the record, I would be curious to know if you consider EVE mobile to be an in-game or out-of-game mechanic.

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If Eve Mobile is in fact a full Eve client, then I would consider it an in-game mechanic. If it is a stripped down version of Eve, only capable of changing skills or modifying trade orders, I would consider it an out of game mechanic.

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Originally by: Matalino

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Originally by: Orcrus

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Character Farmers ALREADY use a macro system to train their skills why can't we get a legal one?

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I seriously doubt that there are ANY skill changing macro's used by character farmers.

The more serious the character farmer the less they would care about these features.

These features mainly benifit the general population.

Character farming is driven by different forces, and will not increase or decrease by the insignificant change in effort required that either of those suggestions would make.

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Originally by: Saris Dadra

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If you want to plan your life around EVE fine. You get the advantages of more experience, money, and in game "friends" than the rest of us. But the skill-system is real-time to eliminate grinding, not to force you to plan your life around EVE. A skill queue of any sort just makes skilling even more attractive to casual players, while robbing the dedicated player of nothing but a ever so slight margin of superiority.

I agree that you should have to actually play the game to change your skills, but I don't think waking up in the middle of the night to change skills should be encouraged. A short queue would solve this. I would suggest three skills, or three days worth of training as the optimal queue.

The queue is long enough that you can go away for a weekend and not have to worry about switching your skills over, but it is short enough so you can't train all races battleships up to lvl 5. With a short queue you can log in every other day a your leisure, and still be able to effectively manage your skills. Is that really a bad thing?

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Originally by: Fink Angel

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No to skill queue. It's just dumbing down Eve.

Character transfers should be banned too. And GTC <> ISK trades too.

If you don't personally put the work in for something, you shouldn't have it.

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Originally by: Bistot Kid

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I place buy orders up on the market. It really annoys me when people undercut my buy orders by 0.01 ISK. We need an Ebay style "bid napper" that can automatically make my buy orders adjust to beat their price. It's unfair someone who logs in all the time should be able to gain an advantage over me.

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Originally by: Akita T

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I know you said that out of spite more as an actual argument...

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Originally by: Akita T

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Originally by: Bistot Kid

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I place buy orders up on the market. It really annoys me when people undercut my buy orders by 0.01 ISK. We need an Ebay style "bid napper" that can automatically make my buy orders adjust to beat their price. It's unfair someone who logs in all the time should be able to gain an advantage over me.

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I know you said that out of spite more as an actual argument

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Originally by: Sleepkevert

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Hmmm, web based skill training switching... I already see the websites arising that automatically change your skill if the previous one finished...

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