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MWDs - essential for PvP on battleships?

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Stakhanov The Good Fellas	Posted - 2007.11.16 21:08:00 - [31] I fly my megathron without a MWD half of the time. Of course , it's mostly due to the way I'm using it. For casual PvP / roaming / gate engagements you should always fit a MWD.
Mrski Okupator Amarr The Arrow Project Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2007.11.17 03:03:00 - [32] Edited by: Mrski Okupator on 17/11/2007 03:04:09 Originally by: Stakhanov I fly my megathron without a MWD half of the time. Of course , it's mostly due to the way I'm using it. For casual PvP / roaming / gate engagements you should always fit a MWD. And a geddon/abaddon never needs a mwd in a gatecamp. And in casual pvp it needs it as a range keeper only. But not for long :D In a fleet every ship needs a mwd since you will often be in a bubble or need to get within range. And yes, the pros are greater then the cons even for the abaddon which can shoot for 50 seconds with perfect skils and a mwd. edit: I can't spell **** ___ Apocalypse Mining. Mine your way to heaven. What playing Amarr feels like. Shamelessly snatched from Almarez.
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Uninvited Guests	Posted - 2007.11.17 03:17:00 - [33] Originally by: madaluap Edited by: madaluap on 16/11/2007 19:55:51 Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Edited by: Lyria Skydancer on 16/11/2007 17:07:25 Originally by: mallina Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Originally by: mallina For Amarr and Caldari ships, no - they're not essential. It is, you prolly mean Amarr and Caldari ships arent always viable to fit an mwd because it jacks up their cap etc. I mean they don't need an MWD to be able to get within weapons range. It dosen't change the fact that not fitting an MWD to a Battleship in 0.0 is a bad idea, but it's not absolutely essential (as it would be on a Blasterthron). The fact that MWDs mess their cap up/etc is a reasonable tradeoff considering they only really need it to escape. Uhm Option 1: A ship that viably can fit MWD without trouble to use its dps. MWD also giving it speed and means to escape and running to gates and out of bubbles. Option 2: A ship that doesnt need mwd to do damage (these ships mostly dont do the damage equal to ships in option 1) but cant viably fit mwd. Ok so what is the down side of being in a ship that goes under option 1? PvP works like this: Chance of a gank ship NOT getting into range and dying because of it <<<< chance of a non mwd ship getting killed by close range gank ships before doing reasonable amount of damage To put it short: Mid range is dead in eve. Close range gank ships own eve. I think the problem is passive tanking. In the old days engaging a armageddon would be quite a expirience. It would near insta lock me, zaaaaaaaaaaaaaaap away my shields, i had to press both of my reps active and after 2 cycles of the reps and mwd i was in range but also in hull with 0% resists. The armageddon would life with 80% armor left. These days, it wont zap away my shields that fast, it will face some heavy plating and higher EM resists. And decent hull resists, allthough a armagedon has a dcu aswell. Imo, both of these fights are too extreme, the answer is in the middle ground. Not ZAP ZAP lol 80% armor left and you lose, but also not the omg look @ my ammount of armor and increased EM resists. We are no where near middle ground. This is why the average gallente gank ships will screw over the average amarr ship. So a fight starts between a geddon and a mega at 20km range at a gate. Geddon is in range pretty much and starts firing. It takes the mega like 15 secs max to get within damage range. How long does the fight last maybe? 2min? Lets say 2min. The mega outdamages the geddon with, lets say 200dps (vaguely counting in EM crap dmg in the damage difference). So after 105 secs mega has done 21k damage more then the geddon. Does the geddon do 21k damage in 15 secs? WTB geddon that does 1400dps on omni tanks.
NoobALTS	Posted - 2007.11.17 09:31:00 - [34] Edited by: NoobALTS on 17/11/2007 09:34:41 Originally by: Lyria Skydancer We are no where near middle ground. This is why the average gallente gank ships will screw over the average amarr ship. So a fight starts between a geddon and a mega at 20km range at a gate. Geddon is in range pretty much and starts firing. It takes the mega like 15 secs max to get within damage range. How long does the fight last maybe? 2min? Lets say 2min. The mega outdamages the geddon with, lets say 200dps (vaguely counting in EM crap dmg in the damage difference). So after 105 secs mega has done 21k damage more then the geddon. Does the geddon do 21k damage in 15 secs? WTB geddon that does 1400dps on omni tanks. Yep. here is another real example. Mega jump in and sees geddon on gate. Mega and geddon lock each other. By the time the geddon locks the mega, the mega is approaching his optimal and boom, its dead geddon time. This is an issue even if the mega did not have EANM's! The problem is mid range combat does not exist anymore, Amarr have not enough mids to have proper mid range combat and EANM is a unveral joke that got placed upon Amarr when devs released prenerfed Compensation Skills that effect passive and not active hardners (the real reason why people switched from active to EANM setups).
ry ry StateCorp The State	Posted - 2007.11.17 09:44:00 - [35] Originally by: slothe in pvp in 0.0 especially, mwd is essential on any size ship. i cant imagine any situation where a mwd is not essential tbh. drive-by sniping. but that's the only one i could think of. OP. MWDs carry some heavy penalties. example - if you managed to web a mwd BS even if you have an identical ship he's probably going to cap out long before you do. it's a trade off. personally i like the speed.
Sokratesz Rionnag Alba Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.11.17 09:45:00 - [36] With the huge faloff on minnie guns i go with an AB there, leaves more cap to tank. Sig removed, inappropriate content. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] - Cortes
Cadiz Caldari No Quarter. Vae Victis.	Posted - 2007.11.17 09:51:00 - [37] There are too many dictors and anchored bubbles in 0.0 PvP to not fit a MWD, no matter what you're flying. MWD goes on everything! ------ Director, No Quarter "There is no problem that cannot be solved by the judicious application of violence."
Gabriel Karade Nulli-Secundus	Posted - 2007.11.17 10:28:00 - [38] 'Tis a shame there is no middle ground, yes it's now an essential module, which underscores a problem there - nothing should be so essential "must have, DO NOT undock without this fitted".... ---------- Video - 'War-Machine'
Pontifex Tellanius North Star Networks Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.11.17 12:30:00 - [39] I have to agree that in 0.0 you need a MWD on all BS. I tried without one on my blaster rokh, I didn't miss it when it came to fighting but it is sooo boring to fly through a 36 or 54 km bubble at 200 m/s.
mallina Caldari Core Contingency	Posted - 2007.11.17 15:50:00 - [40] Originally by: Lyria Skydancer We are no where near middle ground. This is why the average gallente gank ships will screw over the average amarr ship. So a fight starts between a geddon and a mega at 20km range at a gate. Geddon is in range pretty much and starts firing. It takes the mega like 15 secs max to get within damage range. How long does the fight last maybe? 2min? Lets say 2min. The mega outdamages the geddon with, lets say 200dps (vaguely counting in EM crap dmg in the damage difference). So after 105 secs mega has done 21k damage more then the geddon. Does the geddon do 21k damage in 15 secs? WTB geddon that does 1400dps on omni tanks. So your reasoning that range is useless is that a Tier 2 close-range battleship is able to solo a Tier 1 midrange battleship in a 1v1 situation? (even then, it'd be a close fight) Now try 3 Geddons versus 3 Blasterthrons. Assuming equal skill and similar setups (MP/Plate Geddons, Neutron/Plate Megas) The fight is so much in favour of the Geddons it's not even funny. 'Midrange' fighters also arn't horrible vunerable to Webbing. Put a Huginn on that Blasterthron and it sure as hell isn't gonna be doing any DPS to anything. I don't actually know what you're complaining about. You want Amarr to be utterly superior in every way? ---
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Uninvited Guests	Posted - 2007.11.17 15:54:00 - [41] Originally by: mallina Originally by: Lyria Skydancer We are no where near middle ground. This is why the average gallente gank ships will screw over the average amarr ship. So a fight starts between a geddon and a mega at 20km range at a gate. Geddon is in range pretty much and starts firing. It takes the mega like 15 secs max to get within damage range. How long does the fight last maybe? 2min? Lets say 2min. The mega outdamages the geddon with, lets say 200dps (vaguely counting in EM crap dmg in the damage difference). So after 105 secs mega has done 21k damage more then the geddon. Does the geddon do 21k damage in 15 secs? WTB geddon that does 1400dps on omni tanks. So your reasoning that range is useless is that a Tier 2 close-range battleship is able to solo a Tier 1 midrange battleship in a 1v1 situation? (even then, it'd be a close fight) Now try 3 Geddons versus 3 Blasterthrons. Assuming equal skill and similar setups (MP/Plate Geddons, Neutron/Plate Megas) The fight is so much in favour of the Geddons it's not even funny. 'Midrange' fighters also arn't horrible vunerable to Webbing. Put a Huginn on that Blasterthron and it sure as hell isn't gonna be doing any DPS to anything. I don't actually know what you're complaining about. You want Amarr to be utterly superior in every way? No im just saying something EVERYbody knows. Mid ranged fighters dont get enough damage compensation. Eve pvp has nada, nothing to do with mid ranges 90% of the time and mid ranges are getting the scroochie over and over again.
mallina Caldari Core Contingency	Posted - 2007.11.17 16:45:00 - [42] Apoc is a special case since the Cap Amount bonus it gets isn't particually useful in PvP unless you're flying some sort of passive recharge Neuting setup. Omen and Thorax arn't the same tier of cruiser. Omen also dosen't have anywhere near enough PG for a half-useable setup. Course, Apoc and Omen are the ships that actually need fixing. You're claiming that Mid-Range is useless, when it's obviously not. A Geddon with MP can reach out to 45km with it's short ranged guns, so even if you put a Huginn on it it won't make a hell of a lot of difference since it can still dish out respectable damage. Most Blasterthron pilots don't even take Null with them, but even if they did it'd only boost their max. range to about 20km which still leaves them horrendously vunerable to, say, a Huginn and anything with good DPS at more than 20km (such as a Geddon) Or you could simply fit an MWD to the Geddon and burn away from the Blasterthron whilst shooting it. But if you don't even bother trying to use your range advantage, why are you suprised that it dosen't seem worth it? ---
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Uninvited Guests	Posted - 2007.11.17 16:55:00 - [43] Originally by: mallina Apoc is a special case since the Cap Amount bonus it gets isn't particually useful in PvP unless you're flying some sort of passive recharge Neuting setup. Omen and Thorax arn't the same tier of cruiser. Omen also dosen't have anywhere near enough PG for a half-useable setup. Course, Apoc and Omen are the ships that actually need fixing. You're claiming that Mid-Range is useless, when it's obviously not. A Geddon with MP can reach out to 45km with it's short ranged guns, so even if you put a Huginn on it it won't make a hell of a lot of difference since it can still dish out respectable damage. Most Blasterthron pilots don't even take Null with them, but even if they did it'd only boost their max. range to about 20km which still leaves them horrendously vunerable to, say, a Huginn and anything with good DPS at more than 20km (such as a Geddon) Or you could simply fit an MWD to the Geddon and burn away from the Blasterthron whilst shooting it. But if you don't even bother trying to use your range advantage, why are you suprised that it dosen't seem worth it? Non sniping standard pvp occurs within 24km (hint scrambler range). Serisouly how often do you see all geddons sit at their 40km optimal? Every try running mwd and lasers on amarr ships? MWD is broken, speeds are broken and range balance is broken in eve. There arent many ifs and buts tbh. Oh apoc special case. ok.... Omen not same tier? Ok pick same tier to a thorax and compare. Amarr get shafted wichever ship you friggin pick. The only way range advantage can be used in many cases is when you have buddies with you, and thats exactly when you dont really need to keep the distance because youll be ganking your opponents most of the time anyway. No, range advantage of short range weapons are lol in eve because they pay too much dps and tracking compensating for a range barely useful.
Kazacy Caldari The Redeemers	Posted - 2007.11.17 18:05:00 - [44] From my experience mwd its mandatory for every gallente pvp ship with blasters/drones. You need mwd for getting in range or escape from a large camp/bubble and tbh mwd saved my life many times.
mallina Caldari Core Contingency	Posted - 2007.11.17 18:34:00 - [45] Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Non sniping standard pvp occurs within 24km (hint scrambler range). Serisouly how often do you see all geddons sit at their 40km optimal? Every try running mwd and lasers on amarr ships? MWD is broken, speeds are broken and range balance is broken in eve. There arent many ifs and buts tbh. ... No, range advantage of short range weapons are lol in eve because they pay too much dps and tracking compensating for a range barely useful. They don't have to sit at 40km. The same can be done at 20km and Yes I run an MWD on my Geddon quite frequently - It's cap hungry indeed but on what ship isn't it? Even Blasterthrons can't MWD very far before capping out and that's before they start firing/repping/etc. Assuming that they needed fixing in any way (which is sorely debateable) How would you 'fix' lasers? Give them DPS on par with Gallente? K, you just made Blaster ships obselete in Gangs because Amarr do the same job but don't have to MWD to get in range of every target. It'd also make them horrendously overpowered. ---
Xequecal	Posted - 2007.11.17 21:24:00 - [46] Edited by: Xequecal on 17/11/2007 21:25:07 Originally by: mallina Originally by: Lyria Skydancer We are no where near middle ground. This is why the average gallente gank ships will screw over the average amarr ship. So a fight starts between a geddon and a mega at 20km range at a gate. Geddon is in range pretty much and starts firing. It takes the mega like 15 secs max to get within damage range. How long does the fight last maybe? 2min? Lets say 2min. The mega outdamages the geddon with, lets say 200dps (vaguely counting in EM crap dmg in the damage difference). So after 105 secs mega has done 21k damage more then the geddon. Does the geddon do 21k damage in 15 secs? WTB geddon that does 1400dps on omni tanks. So your reasoning that range is useless is that a Tier 2 close-range battleship is able to solo a Tier 1 midrange battleship in a 1v1 situation? (even then, it'd be a close fight) Now try 3 Geddons versus 3 Blasterthrons. Assuming equal skill and similar setups (MP/Plate Geddons, Neutron/Plate Megas) The fight is so much in favour of the Geddons it's not even funny. 'Midrange' fighters also arn't horrible vunerable to Webbing. Put a Huginn on that Blasterthron and it sure as hell isn't gonna be doing any DPS to anything. I don't actually know what you're complaining about. You want Amarr to be utterly superior in every way? 3 Geddons vs. 3 Blasterthrons results in the 3 Blasterthrons murdering one of the Geddons, then warping out. If they were to stay for the duration the Geddons would win, but as warp disruptor range is 24km they don't have to. Range doesn't matter in Eve unless it's fleet with extreme ranges. If you're shooting a target 50km away with Scorch he will just warp out. If he's in disruptor range, he'll have MWDed to blaster range before you can lock him.
Kagura Nikon Minmatar Infinity Enterprises Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.11.17 22:22:00 - [47] Originally by: mallina Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Non sniping standard pvp occurs within 24km (hint scrambler range). Serisouly how often do you see all geddons sit at their 40km optimal? Every try running mwd and lasers on amarr ships? MWD is broken, speeds are broken and range balance is broken in eve. There arent many ifs and buts tbh. ... No, range advantage of short range weapons are lol in eve because they pay too much dps and tracking compensating for a range barely useful. They don't have to sit at 40km. The same can be done at 20km and Yes I run an MWD on my Geddon quite frequently - It's cap hungry indeed but on what ship isn't it? Even Blasterthrons can't MWD very far before capping out and that's before they start firing/repping/etc. Assuming that they needed fixing in any way (which is sorely debateable) How would you 'fix' lasers? Give them DPS on par with Gallente? K, you just made Blaster ships obselete in Gangs because Amarr do the same job but don't have to MWD to get in range of every target. It'd also make them horrendously overpowered. I woudl diminish MWD speed bonus. T2 MWD with level 5 skilsl shoudl NOT give more than 500% speed. As of now its too exagerated. Also would boost AB speed bonus to 200% on AB II with L5 skills. If brute force doesn't solve your problem... you are not using enough

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