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MWDs - essential for PvP on battleships?

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Jakus Cemendur Caldari Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2007.11.16 12:26:00 - [1] Are MWDs essential for PvP on battleships? I'm curious because i've never really liked MWds due to how much they cripple cap use.
Wild Rho Amarr GoonFleet	Posted - 2007.11.16 12:30:00 - [2] Not really. It's generally considered a must have for anything smaller these days as we're living in the nano gang era of pvp but generally only a few battleships such as the megathron will fly with a MWD frequently.
Meiyang Lee Gallente Azteca Transportation Unlimited Gunboat Diplomacy	Posted - 2007.11.16 12:32:00 - [3] MWD on a BS essential? My guess is not really, unless you need to close the distance to your opponents as fast as possible.
Ione Hunt 0utbreak	Posted - 2007.11.16 12:36:00 - [4] Blasterthron without MWD would be a deathrap... _______________
Cpt Cosmic	Posted - 2007.11.16 12:38:00 - [5] its good to have it to get back to the gate or outside of bubble. image what would happen if your sniper fleet would be cought at a gate and the fleet commander saying you to get outside of bubble and warp? have fun moving out.
Crellion Art of War	Posted - 2007.11.16 12:39:00 - [6] Depending on set ups it can be necessary but it can also be harmful. As a generalisation its just plain wrong. Arguably my opinions represent to an extent the opinions of my alliance and in particular circumstances give rise to a valid "casus belli" claim.
Jakus Cemendur Caldari Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2007.11.16 12:46:00 - [7] Well this would be for a blaster hyperion, so do you think it would be necessary for that?
Shiken Kan	Posted - 2007.11.16 12:47:00 - [8] er blaster ships need to get close, so yes it would be pretty essential :p
Crellion Art of War	Posted - 2007.11.16 13:02:00 - [9] Originally by: Jakus Cemendur Well this would be for a blaster hyperion, so do you think it would be necessary for that? if you plan to use it in a small / medium gang with neutrons you can get away with AB often but dont quote me on this because its heresey and Lukek or Dalman or someone will come along and plonk me. In fact I have tried abII on a Mega neutron set up on a clone with Low grade snakes (no it was not set up like that for the Mega lol) and I found it worked like a charm. Very situational though. If you ctd and the gang moves one the mwd is the difference between making it home or not very often. Arguably my opinions represent to an extent the opinions of my alliance and in particular circumstances give rise to a valid "casus belli" claim.
Gamesguy Amarr D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.11.16 13:06:00 - [10] Its pretty much essential period, without you die when you get caught by a bubble/had a gang warp in on you. For example, you're on the gate and a gang too big for you to engage warps in on you. A few aggresses to force you to jump, once you do the rest jumps and kills you. With a mwd you can mwd back to the gate and jump back through, you get a few seconds headstart and even in a trimarked/plated bs I've managed to get back through the gate despite webbing on inertia alone.
Glassback Body Count Inc. Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2007.11.16 13:40:00 - [11] Yes. G. If Eve was just a game, it would have a pause button.
Zhaine B e l l u m	Posted - 2007.11.16 13:43:00 - [12] I would say almost always yes, except in certain bizarre set ups or gangs. It will save your ass or help you kill stuff way to often to leave off.
Cygnus Zhada Amarr The Wild Hunt	Posted - 2007.11.16 14:12:00 - [13] You NEED to be able to burn through/out of bubbles so I'd say yes. Welcome to EVE Online: Press 1 for Caldari, PVE Online Press 2 for Minmatar, PVP Online Press 3 for Gallente, PWN Online Press 4 for Amarr, Lulz Online
bloomich Trotter's Independent Traders Co	Posted - 2007.11.16 14:13:00 - [14] Any non-capital sized PvP ship now really needs a MWD. Even if its a Amarr ship. Especially if its a Amarr Ship! No MWD means you will be at the mercy of whoever you fight, as they can easaly move outside your scram range and warp away if they have a MWD and you dont. This means your opponants will always have a trump card against you. What about giant 0.0 blobfests? You need a MWD even more. Without a MWD, you will die in the first bubble you come up against. On top of that, you will never be manouverable and hence become almost useless in tactical scenarios. With a MWD, you can, even if you are jumping into a bubble, MWD out, warp away and warp back to sniper range. Or perhaps you quickly need to close 10-20km to get into optimal. Or perhaps to move 10-20km Outside of your enemies optimal! Anyhow the point is, always fit a mwd on a non-capital sized pvp ship. --SIG-- I am aware that my name means reproductive organ in another language, I bought this char for isk with that name without relising that.
Miss KillSome Caldari School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2007.11.16 14:19:00 - [15] bah, i gave up on MWD. If everybody fits them on everything, that means that they are faster then my plate hyp. Even if i web them (if they are smart, they have a web too and they are faster) they'll just go outside of my web range..Its good to have it coz of bubbles, but every PvP ship nowadays fits a webber and a mwd. Hyp beeing slow, it only helps u to keep them at your range a little longer..
Damneia Achernius Northen Breeze	Posted - 2007.11.16 15:18:00 - [16] iv been useing a zealot and geddon ok whitout any speed mod and soon ill be useing a absolution when i bother to do the damn leadership skills (3 base charisma ftl on a achura :P) it ofc depends where you fight. in high/low sec its possible to do whitout mwd/ab but 0.0 i havent undocked whitout one yet :P
Corwain Gallente Down In Flames	Posted - 2007.11.16 15:36:00 - [17] Originally by: Miss KillSome bah, i gave up on MWD. If everybody fits them on everything, that means that they are faster then my plate hyp. Even if i web them (if they are smart, they have a web too and they are faster) they'll just go outside of my web range. Hype has 5 mids, allowing you to fit dual webs...a dual webbed MWD ship ain't going far 99% of the time. --
Cygnus Zhada Amarr The Wild Hunt	Posted - 2007.11.16 15:41:00 - [18] MWD is a defensive option most of the time, not an offensive one. Especially on bigger ships you simply need it. Welcome to EVE Online: Press 1 for Caldari, PVE Online Press 2 for Minmatar, PVP Online Press 3 for Gallente, PWN Online Press 4 for Amarr, Lulz Online
mallina Caldari Core Contingency	Posted - 2007.11.16 15:41:00 - [19] For Amarr and Caldari ships, no - they're not essential. 100MN MWDs use far too much cap to be sustained, so unlike HACs they can't really be perma-ran (in order to maintain range) but rather are used to get within range, escape a bubble or, most importantly, burn back to a stargate. In some alliances (BoB in particular) MWDs are a requirement on fleet-fit BS for many of the above reasons and, in general, to increase mobility. ---
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Uninvited Guests	Posted - 2007.11.16 15:50:00 - [20] Edited by: Lyria Skydancer on 16/11/2007 15:50:37 Originally by: Cygnus Zhada MWD is a defensive option most of the time, not an offensive one. Especially on bigger ships you simply need it. -For gallente its always an offensive option to have a MWD. -For minmatar its both an offensive (to somewhat get in dmg range) and defensive (speed tank) mod. -For amarr its a mod that breaks your cap, doesnt help you get into range because you dont need to get closer but it also fails at keeping your range from other ships because youre slow as a turtle anyway (especially some ships that HAVE to have a passive plate tank) Welcome to eve , errr i mean mwd-online
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Uninvited Guests	Posted - 2007.11.16 15:53:00 - [21] Originally by: mallina For Amarr and Caldari ships, no - they're not essential. It is, you prolly mean Amarr and Caldari ships arent always viable to fit an mwd because it jacks up their cap etc.
mallina Caldari Core Contingency	Posted - 2007.11.16 16:07:00 - [22] Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Originally by: mallina For Amarr and Caldari ships, no - they're not essential. It is, you prolly mean Amarr and Caldari ships arent always viable to fit an mwd because it jacks up their cap etc. I mean they don't need an MWD to be able to get within weapons range. It dosen't change the fact that not fitting an MWD to a Battleship in 0.0 is a bad idea, but it's not absolutely essential (as it would be on a Blasterthron). The fact that MWDs mess their cap up/etc is a reasonable tradeoff considering they only really need it to escape. ---
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Uninvited Guests	Posted - 2007.11.16 17:07:00 - [23] Edited by: Lyria Skydancer on 16/11/2007 17:07:25 Originally by: mallina Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Originally by: mallina For Amarr and Caldari ships, no - they're not essential. It is, you prolly mean Amarr and Caldari ships arent always viable to fit an mwd because it jacks up their cap etc. I mean they don't need an MWD to be able to get within weapons range. It dosen't change the fact that not fitting an MWD to a Battleship in 0.0 is a bad idea, but it's not absolutely essential (as it would be on a Blasterthron). The fact that MWDs mess their cap up/etc is a reasonable tradeoff considering they only really need it to escape. Uhm Option 1: A ship that viably can fit MWD without trouble to use its dps. MWD also giving it speed and means to escape and running to gates and out of bubbles. Option 2: A ship that doesnt need mwd to do damage (these ships mostly dont do the damage equal to ships in option 1) but cant viably fit mwd. Ok so what is the down side of being in a ship that goes under option 1? PvP works like this: Chance of a gank ship NOT getting into range and dying because of it <<<< chance of a non mwd ship getting killed by close range gank ships before doing reasonable amount of damage To put it short: Mid range is dead in eve. Close range gank ships own eve.
Shadowsword COLSUP Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2007.11.16 17:11:00 - [24] One of the main reasons why there's so many MWDing battleships is because they can easily get out of bubbles. ------------------------------------------ What is Oomph? It the sound Amarr players makes when they get kicked in the ribs.
darkmancer	Posted - 2007.11.16 18:47:00 - [25] I'd say it depends on what type of gang/fleet your in. A MWD can often save your ass, or help you get though that annoying bubble you run into when your roaming. But the penalties are huge. If all the other bs have one make sure you do. If some of them don't it's upto you. --------------------------------- There's a simple solution to every problem. It is always invariably wrong
Stuart Price Caldari Havoc Inc	Posted - 2007.11.16 18:50:00 - [26] I don't fit a MWD to my bs's, but only because they never venture into nullsec. I fly an Abaddon and a Blaster-Rokh and both have the range to engage at scram distance. If I was flying a ship that had short range guns (blasters on a Rokh hardly qualifies as 'short range' especially when you can load Null and hit out to 32+km) then I would fit a MWD. Simple really. I prefer tank and gank on the big ships. And neuts, heavy neuts are very useful for when vagabonds try their luck. "I got soul but I'm not a soldier"
Ruddger Minmatar Damned Legion	Posted - 2007.11.16 19:40:00 - [27] If you fly in low or high sec and are not in a blaster boat, no its not absolutely necessary. If you are in 0.0 chances are you will be yelled and screamed at for not fitting one. Is it necessary? No. You are in a BS, which means you are in the top 3 to be called primary. If you have to burn out of a bubble, chances are even with a MWD the enemy will get a point on you before you make it out and kill you at their leisure. If you are in a fleet of BSs and may not be targeted and melted instantly then chances are that you can close the 12k to the edge of the bubble before going pop (unless you are unlucky enough to land smack in the middle). As someone said we live in the age of the nano, so conventional wisdom says you must have one, practical experience says otherwise. That said, it does help close distance, so if you only have a range of 20k on your guns expect to have trouble reaching your target who has fitted a MWD because its the thing to do.
madaluap Gallente Mercenary Forces Exquisite Malevolence	Posted - 2007.11.16 19:55:00 - [28] Edited by: madaluap on 16/11/2007 19:55:51 Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Edited by: Lyria Skydancer on 16/11/2007 17:07:25 Originally by: mallina Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Originally by: mallina For Amarr and Caldari ships, no - they're not essential. It is, you prolly mean Amarr and Caldari ships arent always viable to fit an mwd because it jacks up their cap etc. I mean they don't need an MWD to be able to get within weapons range. It dosen't change the fact that not fitting an MWD to a Battleship in 0.0 is a bad idea, but it's not absolutely essential (as it would be on a Blasterthron). The fact that MWDs mess their cap up/etc is a reasonable tradeoff considering they only really need it to escape. Uhm Option 1: A ship that viably can fit MWD without trouble to use its dps. MWD also giving it speed and means to escape and running to gates and out of bubbles. Option 2: A ship that doesnt need mwd to do damage (these ships mostly dont do the damage equal to ships in option 1) but cant viably fit mwd. Ok so what is the down side of being in a ship that goes under option 1? PvP works like this: Chance of a gank ship NOT getting into range and dying because of it <<<< chance of a non mwd ship getting killed by close range gank ships before doing reasonable amount of damage To put it short: Mid range is dead in eve. Close range gank ships own eve. I think the problem is passive tanking. In the old days engaging a armageddon would be quite a expirience. It would near insta lock me, zaaaaaaaaaaaaaaap away my shields, i had to press both of my reps active and after 2 cycles of the reps and mwd i was in range but also in hull with 0% resists. The armageddon would life with 80% armor left. These days, it wont zap away my shields that fast, it will face some heavy plating and higher EM resists. And decent hull resists, allthough a armagedon has a dcu aswell. Imo, both of these fights are too extreme, the answer is in the middle ground. Not ZAP ZAP lol 80% armor left and you lose, but also not the omg look @ my ammount of armor and increased EM resists. _________________________________________________ Breetime A killmail!11!1 omgrawr: BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOYAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
hangnoose Caldari The Illuminati. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.11.16 20:54:00 - [29] I never undock any ship without an mwd ( except caps ofc )
slothe Caldari 0utbreak	Posted - 2007.11.16 21:00:00 - [30] in pvp in 0.0 especially, mwd is essential on any size ship. i cant imagine any situation where a mwd is not essential tbh.
Stakhanov The Good Fellas	Posted - 2007.11.16 21:08:00 - [31] I fly my megathron without a MWD half of the time. Of course , it's mostly due to the way I'm using it. For casual PvP / roaming / gate engagements you should always fit a MWD.
Mrski Okupator Amarr The Arrow Project Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2007.11.17 03:03:00 - [32] Edited by: Mrski Okupator on 17/11/2007 03:04:09 Originally by: Stakhanov I fly my megathron without a MWD half of the time. Of course , it's mostly due to the way I'm using it. For casual PvP / roaming / gate engagements you should always fit a MWD. And a geddon/abaddon never needs a mwd in a gatecamp. And in casual pvp it needs it as a range keeper only. But not for long :D In a fleet every ship needs a mwd since you will often be in a bubble or need to get within range. And yes, the pros are greater then the cons even for the abaddon which can shoot for 50 seconds with perfect skils and a mwd. edit: I can't spell **** ___ Apocalypse Mining. Mine your way to heaven. What playing Amarr feels like. Shamelessly snatched from Almarez.
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Uninvited Guests	Posted - 2007.11.17 03:17:00 - [33] Originally by: madaluap Edited by: madaluap on 16/11/2007 19:55:51 Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Edited by: Lyria Skydancer on 16/11/2007 17:07:25 Originally by: mallina Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Originally by: mallina For Amarr and Caldari ships, no - they're not essential. It is, you prolly mean Amarr and Caldari ships arent always viable to fit an mwd because it jacks up their cap etc. I mean they don't need an MWD to be able to get within weapons range. It dosen't change the fact that not fitting an MWD to a Battleship in 0.0 is a bad idea, but it's not absolutely essential (as it would be on a Blasterthron). The fact that MWDs mess their cap up/etc is a reasonable tradeoff considering they only really need it to escape. Uhm Option 1: A ship that viably can fit MWD without trouble to use its dps. MWD also giving it speed and means to escape and running to gates and out of bubbles. Option 2: A ship that doesnt need mwd to do damage (these ships mostly dont do the damage equal to ships in option 1) but cant viably fit mwd. Ok so what is the down side of being in a ship that goes under option 1? PvP works like this: Chance of a gank ship NOT getting into range and dying because of it <<<< chance of a non mwd ship getting killed by close range gank ships before doing reasonable amount of damage To put it short: Mid range is dead in eve. Close range gank ships own eve. I think the problem is passive tanking. In the old days engaging a armageddon would be quite a expirience. It would near insta lock me, zaaaaaaaaaaaaaaap away my shields, i had to press both of my reps active and after 2 cycles of the reps and mwd i was in range but also in hull with 0% resists. The armageddon would life with 80% armor left. These days, it wont zap away my shields that fast, it will face some heavy plating and higher EM resists. And decent hull resists, allthough a armagedon has a dcu aswell. Imo, both of these fights are too extreme, the answer is in the middle ground. Not ZAP ZAP lol 80% armor left and you lose, but also not the omg look @ my ammount of armor and increased EM resists. We are no where near middle ground. This is why the average gallente gank ships will screw over the average amarr ship. So a fight starts between a geddon and a mega at 20km range at a gate. Geddon is in range pretty much and starts firing. It takes the mega like 15 secs max to get within damage range. How long does the fight last maybe? 2min? Lets say 2min. The mega outdamages the geddon with, lets say 200dps (vaguely counting in EM crap dmg in the damage difference). So after 105 secs mega has done 21k damage more then the geddon. Does the geddon do 21k damage in 15 secs? WTB geddon that does 1400dps on omni tanks.
NoobALTS	Posted - 2007.11.17 09:31:00 - [34] Edited by: NoobALTS on 17/11/2007 09:34:41 Originally by: Lyria Skydancer We are no where near middle ground. This is why the average gallente gank ships will screw over the average amarr ship. So a fight starts between a geddon and a mega at 20km range at a gate. Geddon is in range pretty much and starts firing. It takes the mega like 15 secs max to get within damage range. How long does the fight last maybe? 2min? Lets say 2min. The mega outdamages the geddon with, lets say 200dps (vaguely counting in EM crap dmg in the damage difference). So after 105 secs mega has done 21k damage more then the geddon. Does the geddon do 21k damage in 15 secs? WTB geddon that does 1400dps on omni tanks. Yep. here is another real example. Mega jump in and sees geddon on gate. Mega and geddon lock each other. By the time the geddon locks the mega, the mega is approaching his optimal and boom, its dead geddon time. This is an issue even if the mega did not have EANM's! The problem is mid range combat does not exist anymore, Amarr have not enough mids to have proper mid range combat and EANM is a unveral joke that got placed upon Amarr when devs released prenerfed Compensation Skills that effect passive and not active hardners (the real reason why people switched from active to EANM setups).
ry ry StateCorp The State	Posted - 2007.11.17 09:44:00 - [35] Originally by: slothe in pvp in 0.0 especially, mwd is essential on any size ship. i cant imagine any situation where a mwd is not essential tbh. drive-by sniping. but that's the only one i could think of. OP. MWDs carry some heavy penalties. example - if you managed to web a mwd BS even if you have an identical ship he's probably going to cap out long before you do. it's a trade off. personally i like the speed.
Sokratesz Rionnag Alba Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.11.17 09:45:00 - [36] With the huge faloff on minnie guns i go with an AB there, leaves more cap to tank. Sig removed, inappropriate content. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] - Cortes
Cadiz Caldari No Quarter. Vae Victis.	Posted - 2007.11.17 09:51:00 - [37] There are too many dictors and anchored bubbles in 0.0 PvP to not fit a MWD, no matter what you're flying. MWD goes on everything! ------ Director, No Quarter "There is no problem that cannot be solved by the judicious application of violence."
Gabriel Karade Nulli-Secundus	Posted - 2007.11.17 10:28:00 - [38] 'Tis a shame there is no middle ground, yes it's now an essential module, which underscores a problem there - nothing should be so essential "must have, DO NOT undock without this fitted".... ---------- Video - 'War-Machine'
Pontifex Tellanius North Star Networks Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.11.17 12:30:00 - [39] I have to agree that in 0.0 you need a MWD on all BS. I tried without one on my blaster rokh, I didn't miss it when it came to fighting but it is sooo boring to fly through a 36 or 54 km bubble at 200 m/s.
mallina Caldari Core Contingency	Posted - 2007.11.17 15:50:00 - [40] Originally by: Lyria Skydancer We are no where near middle ground. This is why the average gallente gank ships will screw over the average amarr ship. So a fight starts between a geddon and a mega at 20km range at a gate. Geddon is in range pretty much and starts firing. It takes the mega like 15 secs max to get within damage range. How long does the fight last maybe? 2min? Lets say 2min. The mega outdamages the geddon with, lets say 200dps (vaguely counting in EM crap dmg in the damage difference). So after 105 secs mega has done 21k damage more then the geddon. Does the geddon do 21k damage in 15 secs? WTB geddon that does 1400dps on omni tanks. So your reasoning that range is useless is that a Tier 2 close-range battleship is able to solo a Tier 1 midrange battleship in a 1v1 situation? (even then, it'd be a close fight) Now try 3 Geddons versus 3 Blasterthrons. Assuming equal skill and similar setups (MP/Plate Geddons, Neutron/Plate Megas) The fight is so much in favour of the Geddons it's not even funny. 'Midrange' fighters also arn't horrible vunerable to Webbing. Put a Huginn on that Blasterthron and it sure as hell isn't gonna be doing any DPS to anything. I don't actually know what you're complaining about. You want Amarr to be utterly superior in every way? ---
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Uninvited Guests	Posted - 2007.11.17 15:54:00 - [41] Originally by: mallina Originally by: Lyria Skydancer We are no where near middle ground. This is why the average gallente gank ships will screw over the average amarr ship. So a fight starts between a geddon and a mega at 20km range at a gate. Geddon is in range pretty much and starts firing. It takes the mega like 15 secs max to get within damage range. How long does the fight last maybe? 2min? Lets say 2min. The mega outdamages the geddon with, lets say 200dps (vaguely counting in EM crap dmg in the damage difference). So after 105 secs mega has done 21k damage more then the geddon. Does the geddon do 21k damage in 15 secs? WTB geddon that does 1400dps on omni tanks. So your reasoning that range is useless is that a Tier 2 close-range battleship is able to solo a Tier 1 midrange battleship in a 1v1 situation? (even then, it'd be a close fight) Now try 3 Geddons versus 3 Blasterthrons. Assuming equal skill and similar setups (MP/Plate Geddons, Neutron/Plate Megas) The fight is so much in favour of the Geddons it's not even funny. 'Midrange' fighters also arn't horrible vunerable to Webbing. Put a Huginn on that Blasterthron and it sure as hell isn't gonna be doing any DPS to anything. I don't actually know what you're complaining about. You want Amarr to be utterly superior in every way? No im just saying something EVERYbody knows. Mid ranged fighters dont get enough damage compensation. Eve pvp has nada, nothing to do with mid ranges 90% of the time and mid ranges are getting the scroochie over and over again.
mallina Caldari Core Contingency	Posted - 2007.11.17 16:45:00 - [42] Apoc is a special case since the Cap Amount bonus it gets isn't particually useful in PvP unless you're flying some sort of passive recharge Neuting setup. Omen and Thorax arn't the same tier of cruiser. Omen also dosen't have anywhere near enough PG for a half-useable setup. Course, Apoc and Omen are the ships that actually need fixing. You're claiming that Mid-Range is useless, when it's obviously not. A Geddon with MP can reach out to 45km with it's short ranged guns, so even if you put a Huginn on it it won't make a hell of a lot of difference since it can still dish out respectable damage. Most Blasterthron pilots don't even take Null with them, but even if they did it'd only boost their max. range to about 20km which still leaves them horrendously vunerable to, say, a Huginn and anything with good DPS at more than 20km (such as a Geddon) Or you could simply fit an MWD to the Geddon and burn away from the Blasterthron whilst shooting it. But if you don't even bother trying to use your range advantage, why are you suprised that it dosen't seem worth it? ---
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Uninvited Guests	Posted - 2007.11.17 16:55:00 - [43] Originally by: mallina Apoc is a special case since the Cap Amount bonus it gets isn't particually useful in PvP unless you're flying some sort of passive recharge Neuting setup. Omen and Thorax arn't the same tier of cruiser. Omen also dosen't have anywhere near enough PG for a half-useable setup. Course, Apoc and Omen are the ships that actually need fixing. You're claiming that Mid-Range is useless, when it's obviously not. A Geddon with MP can reach out to 45km with it's short ranged guns, so even if you put a Huginn on it it won't make a hell of a lot of difference since it can still dish out respectable damage. Most Blasterthron pilots don't even take Null with them, but even if they did it'd only boost their max. range to about 20km which still leaves them horrendously vunerable to, say, a Huginn and anything with good DPS at more than 20km (such as a Geddon) Or you could simply fit an MWD to the Geddon and burn away from the Blasterthron whilst shooting it. But if you don't even bother trying to use your range advantage, why are you suprised that it dosen't seem worth it? Non sniping standard pvp occurs within 24km (hint scrambler range). Serisouly how often do you see all geddons sit at their 40km optimal? Every try running mwd and lasers on amarr ships? MWD is broken, speeds are broken and range balance is broken in eve. There arent many ifs and buts tbh. Oh apoc special case. ok.... Omen not same tier? Ok pick same tier to a thorax and compare. Amarr get shafted wichever ship you friggin pick. The only way range advantage can be used in many cases is when you have buddies with you, and thats exactly when you dont really need to keep the distance because youll be ganking your opponents most of the time anyway. No, range advantage of short range weapons are lol in eve because they pay too much dps and tracking compensating for a range barely useful.
Kazacy Caldari The Redeemers	Posted - 2007.11.17 18:05:00 - [44] From my experience mwd its mandatory for every gallente pvp ship with blasters/drones. You need mwd for getting in range or escape from a large camp/bubble and tbh mwd saved my life many times.
mallina Caldari Core Contingency	Posted - 2007.11.17 18:34:00 - [45] Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Non sniping standard pvp occurs within 24km (hint scrambler range). Serisouly how often do you see all geddons sit at their 40km optimal? Every try running mwd and lasers on amarr ships? MWD is broken, speeds are broken and range balance is broken in eve. There arent many ifs and buts tbh. ... No, range advantage of short range weapons are lol in eve because they pay too much dps and tracking compensating for a range barely useful. They don't have to sit at 40km. The same can be done at 20km and Yes I run an MWD on my Geddon quite frequently - It's cap hungry indeed but on what ship isn't it? Even Blasterthrons can't MWD very far before capping out and that's before they start firing/repping/etc. Assuming that they needed fixing in any way (which is sorely debateable) How would you 'fix' lasers? Give them DPS on par with Gallente? K, you just made Blaster ships obselete in Gangs because Amarr do the same job but don't have to MWD to get in range of every target. It'd also make them horrendously overpowered. ---
Xequecal	Posted - 2007.11.17 21:24:00 - [46] Edited by: Xequecal on 17/11/2007 21:25:07 Originally by: mallina Originally by: Lyria Skydancer We are no where near middle ground. This is why the average gallente gank ships will screw over the average amarr ship. So a fight starts between a geddon and a mega at 20km range at a gate. Geddon is in range pretty much and starts firing. It takes the mega like 15 secs max to get within damage range. How long does the fight last maybe? 2min? Lets say 2min. The mega outdamages the geddon with, lets say 200dps (vaguely counting in EM crap dmg in the damage difference). So after 105 secs mega has done 21k damage more then the geddon. Does the geddon do 21k damage in 15 secs? WTB geddon that does 1400dps on omni tanks. So your reasoning that range is useless is that a Tier 2 close-range battleship is able to solo a Tier 1 midrange battleship in a 1v1 situation? (even then, it'd be a close fight) Now try 3 Geddons versus 3 Blasterthrons. Assuming equal skill and similar setups (MP/Plate Geddons, Neutron/Plate Megas) The fight is so much in favour of the Geddons it's not even funny. 'Midrange' fighters also arn't horrible vunerable to Webbing. Put a Huginn on that Blasterthron and it sure as hell isn't gonna be doing any DPS to anything. I don't actually know what you're complaining about. You want Amarr to be utterly superior in every way? 3 Geddons vs. 3 Blasterthrons results in the 3 Blasterthrons murdering one of the Geddons, then warping out. If they were to stay for the duration the Geddons would win, but as warp disruptor range is 24km they don't have to. Range doesn't matter in Eve unless it's fleet with extreme ranges. If you're shooting a target 50km away with Scorch he will just warp out. If he's in disruptor range, he'll have MWDed to blaster range before you can lock him.
Kagura Nikon Minmatar Infinity Enterprises Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.11.17 22:22:00 - [47] Originally by: mallina Originally by: Lyria Skydancer Non sniping standard pvp occurs within 24km (hint scrambler range). Serisouly how often do you see all geddons sit at their 40km optimal? Every try running mwd and lasers on amarr ships? MWD is broken, speeds are broken and range balance is broken in eve. There arent many ifs and buts tbh. ... No, range advantage of short range weapons are lol in eve because they pay too much dps and tracking compensating for a range barely useful. They don't have to sit at 40km. The same can be done at 20km and Yes I run an MWD on my Geddon quite frequently - It's cap hungry indeed but on what ship isn't it? Even Blasterthrons can't MWD very far before capping out and that's before they start firing/repping/etc. Assuming that they needed fixing in any way (which is sorely debateable) How would you 'fix' lasers? Give them DPS on par with Gallente? K, you just made Blaster ships obselete in Gangs because Amarr do the same job but don't have to MWD to get in range of every target. It'd also make them horrendously overpowered. I woudl diminish MWD speed bonus. T2 MWD with level 5 skilsl shoudl NOT give more than 500% speed. As of now its too exagerated. Also would boost AB speed bonus to 200% on AB II with L5 skills. If brute force doesn't solve your problem... you are not using enough

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