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sullahp
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Posted - 2007.11.17 00:03:00 -
[1]
Edited by: sullahp on 17/11/2007 00:04:00
ok, i've only just realised how severe the nerf is going to be.
why? why? why? are the goal posts constantly being shifted...
surely the raven has had it's fair share of nerfs already...
in turn are they (ccp) going to raise the damage potential of torpedoes to bring them in line with blasters and make it a front line ship again??
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Jacob Castillo
Caldari
Copperhead Inc.
Molotov Coalition
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Posted - 2007.11.17 00:09:00 -
[2]
Edited by: Jacob Castillo on 17/11/2007 00:10:07
You do realize that the range reduction comes with a damage increase...right?
So its a boost. Not a nerf.
Your signature exceeds the maximum allowed filesize of 24000 bytes -Kreul Intentions ([email protected]) |
DeadManCommingThew
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Posted - 2007.11.17 00:10:00 -
[3]
Should use an alt for posting such threads
..thier nice and disposable
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sullahp
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Posted - 2007.11.17 00:27:00 -
[4]
i've only heard about it by word of mouth, i'm not long back off my holidays tbh.
personally i'd far rather that they left them alone.
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sullahp
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Posted - 2007.11.17 00:31:00 -
[5]
and who came up with this bright idea btw?
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ry ry
StateCorp
The State
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Posted - 2007.11.17 00:32:00 -
[6]
Edited by: ry ry on 17/11/2007 00:33:54
nah, torps were crap.
RoF slooooooow, damage not spectacular, velocity glacial, range unimpressive. the buff is a good thing - at least they'll hurt a bit now.
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Gawain Hill
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Posted - 2007.11.17 00:37:00 -
[7]
the caldri did by moaning they didn't have real short range big missiles..... you didni't think they'd get somethin new did you? the made torps short range and gave them more damage.
caldari don't like the torps now they do more damage because it means they can't do missions as fast
can't have your cake and eat it too :)
(post not to anyone in particular)
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James Lyrus
Lyrus Associates
Enuma Elish.
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Posted - 2007.11.17 00:40:00 -
[8]
This is not a nerf. ]
And ... don't whine about rumours? They get a RoF boost, in return for a range reduction.
This makes them EXCELLENT pvp weapons.
--
Crane needs more grid
249km locking?
GMP and TNP |
Incantare
Caldari
Kernel of War
Tau Ceti Federation
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Posted - 2007.11.17 01:09:00 -
[9]
 Originally by: Gawain Hill
the caldri did by moaning they didn't have real short range big missiles..... you didni't think they'd get somethin new did you? the made torps short range and gave them more damage.
caldari don't like the torps now they do more damage because it means they can't do missions as fast
can't have your cake and eat it too :)
(post not to anyone in particular)
Or was it changed because the other races whined about the raven's pve abilities?
Anyway this is a good change.
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Admiral Pelleon
Caldari
White Shadow Imperium
Burning Horizons
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Posted - 2007.11.17 01:20:00 -
[10]
This is a boost, stop whining.
Oh no! I have no range! OMG I MIGHT HAVE TO USE THE WEAPON DESIGNED FOR EACH RANGE!
________
"It's a good day to die!"
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Lyria Skydancer
Amarr
Uninvited Guests
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Posted - 2007.11.17 01:48:00 -
[11]
Would be fun if ccp listened to the "dont nerf our torps" threads and dont change them. Would be funny.
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Qui Shon
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Posted - 2007.11.17 01:57:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Gawain Hill
can't have your cake and eat it too :)
Thing is, it's mostly different people who wanted different things. I'd be happy with one of the two, namely the previous system with PvE torps. Don't care at all if Raven can't match Gankathron for close range dps. I'll just use a Gankthron for that.
Torps were awesome, easily the best weapon for majority of missions, especially for one of two ship mission running team. Now they've been made mostly useless for that. Guess I can still use them after changes in a very limited number of missions with two painters.
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NoNah
Tenth Legion Holdings
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Posted - 2007.11.17 01:59:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer
Would be fun if ccp listened to the "dont nerf our torps" threads and dont change them. Would be funny.
haha, Yes, please! I'd be laughing at every caldari thread for quite some time.
Postcount: 446690
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Qui Shon
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Posted - 2007.11.17 02:09:00 -
[14]
Edited by: Qui Shon on 17/11/2007 02:11:21
Ummm, yes please indeed. I'd be laughing...all the way to the bank, or something.
I'd have to rub my eyes a few times if I saw a dev say that though :-)
Sadly I hear Sisi changes are final, but at least T1 didn't get more then 450 exp radius, afaik.
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Chainsaw Plankton
IDLE GUNS
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Posted - 2007.11.17 03:01:00 -
[15]
because running missions/ratting with cruise is the end of the world AHHHHHHHHHHHH
torp buff ftw!!!!!!
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Lyria Skydancer
Amarr
Uninvited Guests
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Posted - 2007.11.17 03:18:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Chainsaw Plankton
because running missions/ratting with cruise is the end of the world AHHHHHHHHHHHH
torp buff ftw!!!!!!
Yeah these whiners should try doing missions with lasers. gg.
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OOOSOOO
Gallente
Federal Navy Academy
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Posted - 2007.11.17 04:18:00 -
[17]
Originally by: sullahp
Edited by: sullahp on 17/11/2007 00:04:00
ok, i've only just realised how severe the nerf is going to be.
why? why? why? are the goal posts constantly being shifted...
surely the raven has had it's fair share of nerfs already...
in turn are they (ccp) going to raise the damage potential of torpedoes to bring them in line with blasters and make it a front line ship again??
I agree. I think its going to suck when i have to bring my raven out to PVP now. Its going to force me to hurl torps at a fast ROF and do nice DPS. Of course if I actually do want to hit at range I will have to make a quick switch to Javelin ammo. Wait. What?
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shinsushi > CCP, this game is too hard for me. Please change it so I can win. Please. I have never won at anything before. Take pity on me and pass the tissues. |
Lyria Skydancer
Amarr
Uninvited Guests
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Posted - 2007.11.17 04:28:00 -
[18]
Maybe they just not happy until they get their unnerfed rage torp ravens that were one-vollying 6xtarget painted battleships.
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Tarron Sarek
Gallente
Endica Enterprises
Alternative Realities
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Posted - 2007.11.17 06:41:00 -
[19]
It's not a nerf.
Also, read sig.
___________________________________
- Balance is power, guard it well -
Please stop using the word 'nerf'
Nothing spells 'incompetence' or 'don't take me serious' like those four letters |
sullahp
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Posted - 2007.11.17 06:55:00 -
[20]
as far as i can see it's a nerf, i only use the raven (the caldari navy variety btw) for missions as a source of income which i do very nicely from when we're not on the move or at war.
another thing, are they going to lower the rof to make them comparable to blasters/autocannons etc etc?
i use cruise for missions mostly anyway due to the speed and added range anyhow.
i'm not a whiner btw, i just don't see the point tbh.
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d026
THE LEGION OF STEEL WARRIORS....
R0ADKILL
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Posted - 2007.11.17 07:10:00 -
[21]
Originally by: sullahp
as far as i can see it's a nerf,
you cant see very far cant you?
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sullahp
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Posted - 2007.11.17 07:31:00 -
[22]
Originally by: d026
Originally by: sullahp
as far as i can see it's a nerf,
you cant see very far cant you?
20/20 vision i'll have you know.
it's gonna screw up mission runners big time and on the rare occasions that i do use a raven for pvp i hate being close in to a target.
the whole idea was unnessacary.
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Disco Flint
Caldari
Disco Corp.
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Posted - 2007.11.17 07:38:00 -
[23]
Originally by: sullahp
Originally by: d026
Originally by: sullahp
as far as i can see it's a nerf,
you cant see very far cant you?
20/20 vision i'll have you know.
it's gonna screw up mission runners big time and on the rare occasions that i do use a raven for pvp i hate being close in to a target.
the whole idea was unnessacary.
You'll have more spare fitting to fit more tank or dmg mods with cruise, have the ability to pop all sizes of targets fast and at any range if you can lock them...
Ya, srsly, the sky is falling!!11
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Lyria Skydancer
Amarr
Uninvited Guests
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Posted - 2007.11.17 07:41:00 -
[24]
Edited by: Lyria Skydancer on 17/11/2007 07:41:50
Originally by: Disco Flint
Originally by: sullahp
Originally by: d026
Originally by: sullahp
as far as i can see it's a nerf,
you cant see very far cant you?
20/20 vision i'll have you know.
it's gonna screw up mission runners big time and on the rare occasions that i do use a raven for pvp i hate being close in to a target.
the whole idea was unnessacary.
You'll have more spare fitting to fit more tank or dmg mods with cruise, have the ability to pop all sizes of targets fast and at any range if you can lock them...
Ya, srsly, the sky is falling!!11
Many farmers not like farming that needs too many braincells at once methinks.
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Van'Klomp
The Three Hundred
R0ADKILL
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Posted - 2007.11.17 09:01:00 -
[25]
Originally by: sullahp
20/20 vision i'll have you know
Standing in a very dark room?
------ This is a signature, no?
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Cpt Cosmic
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Posted - 2007.11.17 09:28:00 -
[26]
1 target painter and you do full damage to bs with it and doing as much dmg as a gankathron is a nerf?
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Tarron Sarek
Gallente
Endica Enterprises
Alternative Realities
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Posted - 2007.11.17 09:30:00 -
[27]
Originally by: sullahp
it's gonna screw up mission runners big time
Why? Are Cruise Missiles not good enough? Try running mission with Blasters.
Originally by: sullahp
and on the rare occasions that i do use a raven for pvp i hate being close in to a target.
Actually a lot of PvP takes place at close range, and often the enemy simply IS close to you, whether you like it or not. 20+km is still a pretty long range for a high damage weapon, especially without tracking issues.
___________________________________
- Balance is power, guard it well -
Please stop using the word 'nerf'
Nothing spells 'incompetence' or 'don't take me serious' like those four letters |
Sokratesz
Rionnag Alba
Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2007.11.17 09:31:00 -
[28]
1) It's a buff
2) ??
3) stfu!
Sig removed, inappropriate content. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] - Cortes |
Juha85
Beasts of Burden
YouWhat
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Posted - 2007.11.17 10:05:00 -
[29]
I just killed a fully t2 fitted maelstrom on sisi with my t1 torp raven. Yes, its indeed a horrible nerf!
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Please resize image to a maximum of 400 x 120, not exceeding 24000 bytes, ty. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] - Cortes |
Riho
Pastry Coalition
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Posted - 2007.11.17 10:24:00 -
[30]
Originally by: sullahp
Edited by: sullahp on 17/11/2007 00:04:00
ok, i've only just realised how severe the nerf is going to be.
why? why? why? are the goal posts constantly being shifted...
surely the raven has had it's fair share of nerfs already...
in turn are they (ccp) going to raise the damage potential of torpedoes to bring them in line with blasters and make it a front line ship again??
lol.. nerf... its a mega boost
what i have tryd on test is insane :D
6x siege launchers + 3x bcu = PWN
i allready have a fit that im going to use in pvp.. and it involves a painter to get max dps out of that ship... sick.. im loveing it :D
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Shiken Kan
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Posted - 2007.11.17 10:38:00 -
[31]
Originally by: sullahp
on the rare occasions that i do use a raven for pvp i hate being close in to a target.
that's understandable, but after the 'nerf' you might learn to love it :D
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Satura
Caldari
Mucho Dolor
The Insomniacs
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Posted - 2007.11.17 10:43:00 -
[32]
Will still be possible to rat with ravens, don't worry.
And the nerf is not exactly a nerf. my 700k sp in missiles >>> a friends 9mil in gunnery. I took 2 of his megathrons down, one neutron + plates setup, and one active tank with ions i think.
Calling it a nerf because if you want to use torps when farming you actually need to close the range to rats instead of staying aligned to your ss all the time is ... a bit lame. Good that caldari will have a decent close range bs tbh. |
Dray
Caldari
Spartan Industries
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Posted - 2007.11.17 10:44:00 -
[33]
If this is a nerf then I say nerf caldari more, use cruise for missions and torps for pvp.
Ive been on test and this nerf is awesome, more nerfs like this please. 
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Tanis Vaperstrome
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Posted - 2007.11.17 10:47:00 -
[34]
Its a massive buff overall.
Missioning: Use cruise. Ok, your dps versus BSs drops a bit, not a big deal. Cruise raven is still amazing.
Ratting: Either really. 30km+ is pretty awsome range compared to many race's ratting setups. Equip a MWD and go to town. Or just use cruises, with decent skills it wont make a difference either way.
PVP: Torps for loldps, with very good range (you'll still be exceeding warp disruption range, and you'll cover an entire gate/station with ease). Want to snipe? Go cruise. They'll get there faster anyways, they still do good damage, and you get more ammo variability. Precision for smaller ships and FoF for anti-ew.
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eve's lover
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Posted - 2007.11.17 12:29:00 -
[35]
Originally by: Riho
Originally by: sullahp
Edited by: sullahp on 17/11/2007 00:04:00
ok, i've only just realised how severe the nerf is going to be.
why? why? why? are the goal posts constantly being shifted...
surely the raven has had it's fair share of nerfs already...
in turn are they (ccp) going to raise the damage potential of torpedoes to bring them in line with blasters and make it a front line ship again??
lol.. nerf... its a mega boost
what i have tryd on test is insane :D
6x siege launchers + 3x bcu = PWN
i allready have a fit that im going to use in pvp.. and it involves a painter to get max dps out of that ship... sick.. im loveing it :D
I Hope the OP takes note that some ppl have actualy TESTED this out on the test server before coming and whining about a Torp Nurf and been completly ignorant to the changes. I for one look forward to the coming changes and the raven is going to deal out some nasty dps.
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Esmenet
Gallente
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Posted - 2007.11.17 12:40:00 -
[36]
Edited by: Esmenet on 17/11/2007 12:40:13
If you pvp its a big buff.
If you do missions its a big nerf.
No need to laugh at people thinking one or the other.
Your signature exceeds the maximum allowed filesize of 24000 bytes -Kreul Intentions ([email protected]) |
Reem Fairchild
Minmatar
Military Industrial Research
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Posted - 2007.11.17 12:47:00 -
[37]
Edited by: Reem Fairchild on 17/11/2007 12:46:52
Originally by: Esmenet
Edited by: Esmenet on 17/11/2007 12:40:13
If you pvp its a big buff.
If you do missions its a big nerf.
No need to laugh at people thinking one or the other.
Except when people make forum posts like this:
Originally by: sullahp
Edited by: sullahp on 17/11/2007 00:04:00
ok, i've only just realised how severe the nerf is going to be.
why? why? why? are the goal posts constantly being shifted...
surely the raven has had it's fair share of nerfs already...
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ShadowlordUK
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Posted - 2007.11.17 12:53:00 -
[38]
Attempting to prevent people from pointing out a massive and tbh overpowering buff by claiming the complete opposite is... at best foolish.
Wouldn't ordinarily respond to a thread like this but these kind of pre-emptive anti nerf threads annoy me.
If you are so unhappy about this change I will happily support you in the campaign to NOT have the dmg increased on a ship that is already one of the strongest bs.
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welsh wizard
Celestial Apocalypse
Insurgency
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Posted - 2007.11.17 13:01:00 -
[39]
Originally by: ShadowlordUK
Attempting to prevent people from pointing out a massive and tbh overpowering buff by claiming the complete opposite is... at best foolish.
Wouldn't ordinarily respond to a thread like this but these kind of pre-emptive anti nerf threads annoy me.
If you are so unhappy about this change I will happily support you in the campaign to NOT have the dmg increased on a ship that is already one of the strongest bs.
Explain why the Raven is currently one of the strongest BS in pvp and I'll be happy to trash your argument.
[Balance] The Caldari problem. |
Reem Fairchild
Minmatar
Military Industrial Research
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Posted - 2007.11.17 13:35:00 -
[40]
Originally by: welsh wizard
Originally by: ShadowlordUK
Attempting to prevent people from pointing out a massive and tbh overpowering buff by claiming the complete opposite is... at best foolish.
Wouldn't ordinarily respond to a thread like this but these kind of pre-emptive anti nerf threads annoy me.
If you are so unhappy about this change I will happily support you in the campaign to NOT have the dmg increased on a ship that is already one of the strongest bs.
Explain why the Raven is currently one of the strongest BS in pvp and I'll be happy to trash your argument.
It will be after this supposed "nerf".
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welsh wizard
Celestial Apocalypse
Insurgency
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Posted - 2007.11.17 13:46:00 -
[41]
Originally by: Reem Fairchild
Originally by: welsh wizard
Originally by: ShadowlordUK
Attempting to prevent people from pointing out a massive and tbh overpowering buff by claiming the complete opposite is... at best foolish.
Wouldn't ordinarily respond to a thread like this but these kind of pre-emptive anti nerf threads annoy me.
If you are so unhappy about this change I will happily support you in the campaign to NOT have the dmg increased on a ship that is already one of the strongest bs.
Explain why the Raven is currently one of the strongest BS in pvp and I'll be happy to trash your argument.
It will be after this supposed "nerf".
It will have its place after the "nerf" but currently torps are just another NPC'ing weapon.
Until the torp changes hit Tranq its not going to be evident what sort of impact they'll have. Personally I think it'll be very small but offering new options for a Caldari pilot that wants to try something new.
All this panic is ridiculous.
[Balance] The Caldari problem. |
lyrenna
Caldari
The Renaissance
The Makhai
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Posted - 2007.11.17 13:59:00 -
[42]
i now its 757894546th time but its not a nerf its a buff
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Michael Caldar
DangerZone Inc.
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Posted - 2007.11.17 15:54:00 -
[43]
Just trying to figure out how a torp fitted Raven has suddenly become such a PvP "beast" (well, at least according to "it's not a nerf" crowd). Let's compare damage delivered on target:
Using standard, unmodified/trained etc figures the ROF for Siege Launcher I is 24 secs, Cruise Launcher I - 22 secs. Range to target - 37.5K (max theoretical for torpedoes - the cruise fitted Raven came close enough for the "fair fight's" sake... ).
0 -> 32 secs: Cruises deliver 600 HP - 1st and 2nd salvo have arrived on target (with twice the explosion velocity and smaller explosion radius = more damage); Torps - 450 HP... The second salvo is still out there somewhere but there's hope for it's arrival any time soon.
0 -> 54 secs: Cruises - 900 HP (3 salvos have arrived on target); Torps - 900!!! Woohoo - the second salvo is finally here blaming fallen leaves, bad weather etc for their late arrival...
0 -> 76 secs: Cruises - 1,200 HP, Torps - no change at 900 HP
0 -> 98 secs: Cruises - 1,500 HP; Torps - 1350...
0 -> 2 mins: Cruises - 1,800 HP (6 launched, 6 delivered); Torps - 1800... (2 salvos are still chugging along to the target hoping to arrive before it's moves out of range, warps out or simly kills their launching vessel through superior dps...)
Again - torp damage is taken as read from the Attributes page, not taking into account explosion radius or velocity.
What am I missing here? When people saying about "massive boost" rather than a nerf - where is that boost?
Let's not forget that at 1,250 m/s you should be able to simply target individual units and kill them before they are even reach you. And I do appreciate the use of Target Painters will help with the explosion radius issue. Not sure how it would affect - if at all - the said explosion velocity thouigh... But they do take up middle slots, don't they? And last time I looked there was no spare ones on a Raven.
RIP Torpedoes? Can I have a refund on my 1.026M torpedo related skill points please? I'd like to invest them into something I'm likely to be actually using...
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Reem Fairchild
Minmatar
Military Industrial Research
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Posted - 2007.11.17 16:04:00 -
[44]
Originally by: welsh wizard
All this panic is ridiculous.
The panic is only coming from mission runners who insist on calling the change a "nerf".
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Reem Fairchild
Minmatar
Military Industrial Research
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Posted - 2007.11.17 16:08:00 -
[45]
Originally by: Michael Caldar
What am I missing here? When people saying about "massive boost" rather than a nerf - where is that boost?
As has already been stated a million times on these forums: The firing rate will be increased to where they will have 33% higher dps than they do on Tranquility right now.
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Alyth
Gallente
The Scope
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Posted - 2007.11.17 16:08:00 -
[46]
Edited by: Alyth on 17/11/2007 16:08:34
Originally by: Michael Caldar
Just trying to figure out how a torp fitted Raven has suddenly become such a PvP "beast" (well, at least according to "it's not a nerf" crowd). Let's compare damage delivered on target:
Using standard, unmodified/trained etc figures the ROF for Siege Launcher I is 24 secs, Cruise Launcher I - 22 secs. Range to target - 37.5K (max theoretical for torpedoes - the cruise fitted Raven came close enough for the "fair fight's" sake...).
0 -> 32 secs: Cruises deliver 600 HP - 1st and 2nd salvo have arrived on target (with twice the explosion velocity and smaller explosion radius = more damage); Torps - 450 HP... The second salvo is still out there somewhere but there's hope for it's arrival any time soon.
0 -> 54 secs: Cruises - 900 HP (3 salvos have arrived on target); Torps - 900!!! Woohoo - the second salvo is finally here blaming fallen leaves, bad weather etc for their late arrival...
0 -> 76 secs: Cruises - 1,200 HP, Torps - no change at 900 HP
0 -> 98 secs: Cruises - 1,500 HP; Torps - 1350...
0 -> 2 mins: Cruises - 1,800 HP (6 launched, 6 delivered); Torps - 1800... (2 salvos are still chugging along to the target hoping to arrive before it's moves out of range, warps out or simly kills their launching vessel through superior dps...)
Again - torp damage is taken as read from the Attributes page, not taking into account explosion radius or velocity.
What am I missing here? When people saying about "massive boost" rather than a nerf - where is that boost?
Let's not forget that at 1,250 m/s you should be able to simply target individual units and kill them before they are even reach you. And I do appreciate the use of Target Painters will help with the explosion radius issue. Not sure how it would affect - if at all - the said explosion velocity thouigh... But they do take up middle slots, don't they? And last time I looked there was no spare ones on a Raven.
RIP Torpedoes? Can I have a refund on my 1.026M torpedo related skill points please? I'd like to invest them into something I'm likely to be actually using...
Oops and we have a loser folks! Somebody didn't bother to look up the speed boost and rate of fire boost torpedo's are getting. Better luck next time you play Do Your Research!
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Michael Caldar
DangerZone Inc.
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Posted - 2007.11.17 16:27:00 -
[47]
Edited by: Michael Caldar on 17/11/2007 16:27:56
Originally by: Alyth
Oops and we have a loser folks! Somebody didn't bother to look up the speed boost and rate of fire boost torpedo's are getting. Better luck next time you play Do Your Research!
Why wait for the "next time"? I'm online now and 30 secs flight time at 1,250m/s with 450 HP is a standard torpedo available NOW. Same as the Siege Launcher I with it's 24 secs ROF. Nowehere it says anything about 33% damage boost. This is how it is NOW, 16:26 GMT, 17/11/07. And yes, at this present moment in time torps are nerfed (not that I used them much anyway). Please show me those 33% you seem to be so excited about?
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Augeas
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Posted - 2007.11.17 16:33:00 -
[48]
What is this guy blathering about?
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Esmenet
Gallente
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Posted - 2007.11.17 16:48:00 -
[49]
Originally by: Michael Caldar
Why wait for the "next time"? I'm online now and 30 secs flight time at 1,250m/s with 450 HP is a standard torpedo available NOW. Same as the Siege Launcher I with it's 24 secs ROF. Nowehere it says anything about 33% damage boost. This is how it is NOW, 16:26 GMT, 17/11/07. And yes, at this present moment in time torps are nerfed (not that I used them much anyway). Please show me those 33% you seem to be so excited about?
Test server torps: Low range, 33% increase in dps(rof bonus to launchers), increased missile velocity.
Tranquility torps: No change yet.
Also note that you cannot directly see the change in missile velocity applied to your missiles through skills and shipbonuses. You have to calculate real velocity from the base value yourself. Only the stats for the launcher is shown with skillbonuses.
Your signature exceeds the maximum allowed filesize of 24000 bytes -Kreul Intentions ([email protected]) |
Qui Shon
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Posted - 2007.11.17 16:54:00 -
[50]
Originally by: Esmenet
Edited by: Esmenet on 17/11/2007 12:40:13
If you pvp its a big buff.
If you do missions its a big nerf.
No need to laugh at people thinking one or the other.
That's too difficult for some of the people on this board. Maybe the thought is too complex or somehing.
Originally by: Lyria Skydancer
Yeah these whiners should try doing missions with lasers. gg.
In 2-3 months I will, since they seem pretty damn good at it for some rats.
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Alyth
Gallente
The Scope
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Posted - 2007.11.17 17:55:00 -
[51]
Originally by: Michael Caldar
Edited by: Michael Caldar on 17/11/2007 16:27:56
Originally by: Alyth
Oops and we have a loser folks! Somebody didn't bother to look up the speed boost and rate of fire boost torpedo's are getting. Better luck next time you play Do Your Research!
Why wait for the "next time"? I'm online now and 30 secs flight time at 1,250m/s with 450 HP is a standard torpedo available NOW. Same as the Siege Launcher I with it's 24 secs ROF. Nowehere it says anything about 33% damage boost. This is how it is NOW, 16:26 GMT, 17/11/07. And yes, at this present moment in time torps are nerfed (not that I used them much anyway). Please show me those 33% you seem to be so excited about?
Go look on Singularity where the new torpedoes are being used. As in the ones in the next patch and have had a rate of fire bonus applied compared to the ones on Tranquility that you are looking at. As in you are looking at the wrong damn torpedoes.
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Jackal79
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Posted - 2007.11.17 18:01:00 -
[52]
The torp boost is the best thing to happen to caldari for a long time.
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Reem Fairchild
Minmatar
Military Industrial Research
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Posted - 2007.11.17 20:55:00 -
[53]
Originally by: Michael Caldar
This is how it is NOW,
At the present time no changes (at all) have been made to torpedos on Tranquility (the real server). You have to wait for the new expansion or go on the test server.
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Mr Reeth
Aegis Militia
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Posted - 2007.11.17 21:17:00 -
[54]
Edited by: Mr Reeth on 17/11/2007 21:17:38
It seems pretty obvious to me that CCP is doing to 2 things with the torp change. (it's not a nerf or a boost, it's a change )
1) They are giving Caldari the ability to PvP. I seem to remeber a few giant threads full of Caldari beging for this. But I guess doing what people ask won't stop them from complaining.
2) They are setting the stage for a Khanid Torp BS!!! I think the Apoc may just be getting a spiffy new black paint job. 
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James Lyrus
Lyrus Associates
Enuma Elish.
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Posted - 2007.11.17 23:53:00 -
[55]
Originally by: welsh wizard
Originally by: Reem Fairchild
Originally by: welsh wizard
Originally by: ShadowlordUK
Attempting to prevent people from pointing out a massive and tbh overpowering buff by claiming the complete opposite is... at best foolish.
Wouldn't ordinarily respond to a thread like this but these kind of pre-emptive anti nerf threads annoy me.
If you are so unhappy about this change I will happily support you in the campaign to NOT have the dmg increased on a ship that is already one of the strongest bs.
Explain why the Raven is currently one of the strongest BS in pvp and I'll be happy to trash your argument.
It will be after this supposed "nerf".
It will have its place after the "nerf" but currently torps are just another NPC'ing weapon.
Until the torp changes hit Tranq its not going to be evident what sort of impact they'll have. Personally I think it'll be very small but offering new options for a Caldari pilot that wants to try something new.
All this panic is ridiculous.
1300 dps at 24km and fast enough to kite (plated) megathrons is good in my book. It's not 'I win now' but it's one hell of an improvement in the close range combat arena, for the Raven. Which IMO was badly needed.
--
Crane needs more grid
249km locking?
GMP and TNP |
Paulo Damarr
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Posted - 2007.11.18 00:15:00 -
[56]
Edited by: Paulo Damarr on 18/11/2007 00:23:07
For mission running with torps its a nerf but for pvp it could be a huge boost for caldari, So for the greater good mission runners will have to take this on the chin.
Originally by: Esmenet
Also note that you cannot directly see the change in missile velocity applied to your missiles through skills and shipbonuses. You have to calculate real velocity from the base value yourself. Only the stats for the launcher is shown with skillbonuses.
You can check the applied changes skills and ship bonuses add, In the fitting screen right click on the missile in the launcher and select info and it will display the modified attributes instead of the baseline figures.
Originally by: MOTOK0
A bit like the second coming of jesus only with screaming and tears and whine threads.
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Gawain Hill
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Posted - 2007.11.18 00:35:00 -
[57]
Originally by: Michael Caldar
*doctored stats that'd never happen in real game play*
wow well done how many battles (baring big fleet battles where missiles are kinda pointless anyway) have you been in where any minority has been able to sit and shoot at one target for 2 minuets at something 37.5k away?
does max theoretical range for torps include skills or not include skill cause if you're goin to include skills for range you might aswell include them if they were all to 5 and if you're goin to include skills that increase range then you have to include skills that boost damage otherwise you're just biasing the stats to suit your own needs.
I don't use torps or missiles on any ship but if you're goin to spew stats then have it at realistic ranges (inside scram range for the first 30 seconds then inside web range after that)
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Leandro Salazar
The Blackguard Wolves
Knights Of the Southerncross
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Posted - 2007.11.18 10:55:00 -
[58]
Edited by: Leandro Salazar on 18/11/2007 10:56:05
It is a huge nerf to professional mission runners. It is a huge boost to PvP-Ravens. It is an indireect boost to cruise missile AFK farmers (and thus a nerf to interactive play). And an indirect boost to turret boats for mission. Which would be good, if CCP didn't go and have their ass rip down what their hands built up by putting a 50% nerf on tracking comps...
All in all, people who say it is only a boost are just as ignorant as those who say it is only a nerf. Seeing how I used to be a torp CNR enthusiast, it is mainly a nerf for me, but my PvP phoon and my Jav torp BPO ownership will likely enjoy the change.
And since I can fly every BS and use every weapon with decent skills, the nerf doesn't really hit me very hard. I will just get me a Kronos for those missions where my Abaddons damage types suck, and my officer-fit torp CNR will go to the museum.
Just more proof that speccing is ftl and diversity pwns :P
There is no 'n' in turret
There is no 'r' in faction
There is no 'a' in Scorpion
There is no 'e' in Caldari
There is no makeup in rogue drones |
James Lyrus
Lyrus Associates
Enuma Elish.
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Posted - 2007.11.18 11:08:00 -
[59]
Originally by: Paulo Damarr
Edited by: Paulo Damarr on 18/11/2007 00:23:07
For mission running with torps its a nerf but for pvp it could be a huge boost for caldari, So for the greater good mission runners will have to take this on the chin.
Very marginally so though. Cruise missiles are as effective as they've ever been, and ... they're actually about as fast at clearing the average level 4 as torps.
Or, fit a speed mod on your raven, and do the same thing as every other close range damage BS has to - and revel in having 33% more DPS.
(And yes, I do do missions, quite a lot)
--
Crane needs more grid
249km locking?
GMP and TNP |
Satura
Caldari
Mucho Dolor
The Insomniacs
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Posted - 2007.11.18 11:12:00 -
[60]
Quote:
1300 dps at 24km and fast enough to kite (plated) megathrons is good in my book. It's not 'I win now' but it's one hell of an improvement in the close range combat arena, for the Raven. Which IMO was badly needed.
Don't even need to kite them. The plated neutron Mega might bite from your armor a bit, but will die first anyway. |
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Leandro Salazar
The Blackguard Wolves
Knights Of the Southerncross
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Posted - 2007.11.18 11:33:00 -
[61]
Originally by: James Lyrus
Originally by: Paulo Damarr
Edited by: Paulo Damarr on 18/11/2007 00:23:07
For mission running with torps its a nerf but for pvp it could be a huge boost for caldari, So for the greater good mission runners will have to take this on the chin.
Very marginally so though. Cruise missiles are as effective as they've ever been, and ... they're actually about as fast at clearing the average level 4 as torps.
Or, fit a speed mod on your raven, and do the same thing as every other close range damage BS has to - and revel in having 33% more DPS.
(And yes, I do do missions, quite a lot)
For most missions I do in my CNR, using cruise would mean losing a lot of efficiency. That is in a faction/officer pimped ship with 2 TPs of course, but still. The real strong point of cruise missiles is ease of use and versatility. Not efficiency. Most if not all turret boats should be able to surpass the efficiency of cruise fits against the correct enemies (at least with the current unnerfed TCs).
There is no 'n' in turret
There is no 'r' in faction
There is no 'a' in Scorpion
There is no 'e' in Caldari
There is no makeup in rogue drones |
sullahp
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Posted - 2007.11.18 13:47:00 -
[62]
Originally by: Satura
Will still be possible to rat with ravens, don't worry.
And the nerf is not exactly a nerf. my 700k sp in missiles >>> a friends 9mil in gunnery. I took 2 of his megathrons down, one neutron + plates setup, and one active tank with ions i think.
Calling it a nerf because if you want to use torps when farming you actually need to close the range to rats instead of staying aligned to your ss all the time is ... a bit lame. Good that caldari will have a decent close range bs tbh.
who said anything about safe spots??
*shakes head*
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Michael Caldar
DangerZone Inc.
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Posted - 2007.11.18 13:49:00 -
[63]
Originally by: Gawain Hill
Originally by: Michael Caldar
*doctored stats that'd never happen in real game play*
wow well done how many battles (baring big fleet battles where missiles are kinda pointless anyway) have you been in where any minority has been able to sit and shoot at one target for 2 minuets at something 37.5k away?
does max theoretical range for torps include skills or not include skill cause if you're goin to include skills for range you might aswell include them if they were all to 5 and if you're goin to include skills that increase range then you have to include skills that boost damage otherwise you're just biasing the stats to suit your own needs.
You are obviously missing the point that I was making - skills/implants/ships boni notwithstanding, the torps are next to useless compare to cruises. This did not used to be the case but, as things stand at the moment, it certainly is the case. In Tranquility, the "real" world of Eve. Not on a test server, not in future patch which might or might not happen (at least in the way it is described). In TQ I've invested just over a mil SP in torpedoes. In one swift move a CCP programmer rendered this investment pretty much worthless.
Originally by: Gawain Hill
I don't use torps or missiles on any ship but if you're goin to spew stats then have it at realistic ranges (inside scram range for the first 30 seconds then inside web range after that)
Ah... You don't use them - I apologize for wasting your time then.
-----------
The whole Caldari Navy combat doctrine is based on range/shields/missiles. I simply find it daft trying to force Caldari ships to engage at ranges they were not designed to fight.
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Grim Vandal
Caldari
Burn Proof
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Posted - 2007.11.18 13:55:00 -
[64]
Originally by: James Lyrus
And yes, I do do missions, quite a lot
oh dear there is actually someone who does missions AND pvps??? I cant belive that!
Greetings Grim |
Brea Lafail
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Posted - 2007.11.18 15:39:00 -
[65]
Originally by: Michael Caldar
RIP Torpedoes? Can I have a refund on my 1.026M torpedo related skill points please? I'd like to invest them into something I'm likely to be actually using...
Can I have my interdictor SP back? I'd like to invest them in a ship that won't get outrun by a t1 cruiser.
Caldari wanted a PvP ship, and they got it. Whether this change is good or bad... we'll see.
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Gamesguy
Amarr
D00M.
Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2007.11.19 01:13:00 -
[66]
Originally by: Michael Caldar
Originally by: Gawain Hill
Originally by: Michael Caldar
*doctored stats that'd never happen in real game play*
wow well done how many battles (baring big fleet battles where missiles are kinda pointless anyway) have you been in where any minority has been able to sit and shoot at one target for 2 minuets at something 37.5k away?
does max theoretical range for torps include skills or not include skill cause if you're goin to include skills for range you might aswell include them if they were all to 5 and if you're goin to include skills that increase range then you have to include skills that boost damage otherwise you're just biasing the stats to suit your own needs.
You are obviously missing the point that I was making - skills/implants/ships boni notwithstanding, the torps are next to useless compare to cruises. This did not used to be the case but, as things stand at the moment, it certainly is the case. In Tranquility, the "real" world of Eve. Not on a test server, not in future patch which might or might not happen (at least in the way it is described). In TQ I've invested just over a mil SP in torpedoes. In one swift move a CCP programmer rendered this investment pretty much worthless.
Originally by: Gawain Hill
I don't use torps or missiles on any ship but if you're goin to spew stats then have it at realistic ranges (inside scram range for the first 30 seconds then inside web range after that)
Ah... You don't use them - I apologize for wasting your time then.
-----------
The whole Caldari Navy combat doctrine is based on range/shields/missiles. I simply find it daft trying to force Caldari ships to engage at ranges they were not designed to fight.
Are you ******** or something? There has been NO CHANGE to torps on tranquility.
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Kaathar Rielspar
Minmatar
Universal Exports
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Posted - 2007.11.19 01:24:00 -
[67]
Edited by: Kaathar Rielspar on 19/11/2007 01:24:42
The range is still too short imo. Torps are also used to great effect vs pos shields and with this change the raven will be the only one capable of fielding torps vs a pos shield due to the range bonus on the ship. This leaves BS's without a range bonus boned.
Imo, they should have a max skill base range of 30km or so in order to keep them viable weapons for BS (other than a raven) pos siege. You raven pilots can add your ship bonus on to that 30km max skill range.
____________________
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Gamesguy
Amarr
D00M.
Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2007.11.19 01:42:00 -
[68]
Originally by: Kaathar Rielspar
Edited by: Kaathar Rielspar on 19/11/2007 01:24:42
The range is still too short imo. Torps are also used to great effect vs pos shields and with this change the raven will be the only one capable of fielding torps vs a pos shield due to the range bonus on the ship. This leaves BS's without a range bonus boned.
Imo, they should have a max skill base range of 30km or so in order to keep them viable weapons for BS (other than a raven) pos siege. You raven pilots can add your ship bonus on to that 30km max skill range.
If torps get 30km range base then it needs to lose about 25% dps. Compare to megapulse with scorch.
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Incantare
Caldari
Kernel of War
Tau Ceti Federation
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Posted - 2007.11.19 01:44:00 -
[69]
Originally by: Kaathar Rielspar
The range is still too short imo. Torps are also used to great effect vs pos shields and with this change the raven will be the only one capable of fielding torps vs a pos shield due to the range bonus on the ship. This leaves BS's without a range bonus boned.
Imo, they should have a max skill base range of 30km or so in order to keep them viable weapons for BS (other than a raven) pos siege. You raven pilots can add your ship bonus on to that 30km max skill range.
Meh, just switch to cruise.
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Satura
Caldari
Mucho Dolor
The Insomniacs
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Posted - 2007.11.19 01:53:00 -
[70]
Originally by: sullahp
Originally by: Satura
Will still be possible to rat with ravens, don't worry.
And the nerf is not exactly a nerf. my 700k sp in missiles >>> a friends 9mil in gunnery. I took 2 of his megathrons down, one neutron + plates setup, and one active tank with ions i think.
Calling it a nerf because if you want to use torps when farming you actually need to close the range to rats instead of staying aligned to your ss all the time is ... a bit lame. Good that caldari will have a decent close range bs tbh.
who said anything about safe spots??
*shakes head*
Yup, sorry, was thinking at the way torp ravens are used in 00 at the moment, that wasn't directed to you. |
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sullahp
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Posted - 2007.11.19 22:30:00 -
[71]
well, i still think it's not right and no matter what little old me, the paying customer says, ccp are still going to go through with this wether i like it or not. so i guess i'll just have to lump it and perhaps sit back and wonder why i trained torps to l5 and torp spec to l4....i hardly ever use caldari bs for pvp, i tend to go with gallente/minmitar for that, if and when i do use a bs. i generally use my other toys for pvp, mission running is pretty much my only source of income when we're not at war etc, that's the reason i'm annoyed with this, i think i said that b4 but nvm.
but as it turns out it may well be to my advantage but i don't know if i'll be using a raven for pvp even still...
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mechtech
Silver Snake Enterprise
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Posted - 2007.11.19 23:00:00 -
[72]
Originally by: sullahp
well, i still think it's not right and no matter what little old me, the paying customer says, ccp are still going to go through with this wether i like it or not. so i guess i'll just have to lump it and perhaps sit back and wonder why i trained torps to l5 and torp spec to l4....i hardly ever use caldari bs for pvp, i tend to go with gallente/minmitar for that, if and when i do use a bs. i generally use my other toys for pvp, mission running is pretty much my only source of income when we're not at war etc, that's the reason i'm annoyed with this, i think i said that b4 but nvm.
but as it turns out it may well be to my advantage but i don't know if i'll be using a raven for pvp even still...
CCP knows what's best for the game, and personally I'm really impressed with how in touch they are with the community, more so than ANY other mmo I've ever played.
Now on the torp change (NOT a nerf, they are better for PvP, and really put the raven up with the other top close-mid range BSs).
How exactly is this a bad change? Caldari was a lopsided race, this helps even them out, and also gives them a short range weapon and a long range one like the other races. Caldari are still able to PVE as well, they are still a very viable race to do that.
Eve changes CONSTANTLY, can you imagine there was a time when Amarr was the best race? Balancing is an ongoing process that usually takes place in every major patch (wow, can you see the pattern?)
You have to expect change in eve. Adapt or die, roll with the punches, and believe it or not you'll be fine at the end of it.
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Atsuko Ratu
Caldari
Advanced Logistics
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Posted - 2007.11.20 04:29:00 -
[73]
Edited by: Atsuko Ratu on 20/11/2007 04:31:51
Dang it CCP! DPS increase to CALDARI!?!? What were you thinking? We're the "can't-really-do-anything-but-shoot-poses" race, now we're the "can-shoot-at-people-AND-poses-now" race. WTF
Mission runners have no real say in this tbh. Everything about the game is directly connected and determined by pvp. The falcon is already up 35m simply because of the bonus boost, and I wouldn't be suprised if ravens went up as well.
Originally by: Kaathar Rielspar
The range is still too short imo. Torps are also used to great effect vs pos shields and with this change the raven will be the only one capable of fielding torps vs a pos shield due to the range bonus on the ship. This leaves BS's without a range bonus boned.
All... two of them? There are rigs for missle range you know.
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Qui Shon
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Posted - 2007.11.20 08:24:00 -
[74]
Originally by: mechtech
How exactly is this a bad change? Caldari was a lopsided race, this helps even them out, and also gives them a short range weapon and a long range one like the other races. Caldari are still able to PVE as well, they are still a very viable race to do that.
Has been said before but since you asked.
It's a bad change because it took a specialized tool that was the best at something and all but scrapped it, reduced it to mediocrity. Some people think this is good, but in this case I'd disagree with them. I can understand the PvP benefits and the people rejoicing over that, but as race means next to nothing in Eve there is no need to have every shiprole represented and equalized in every race.
"Still able to"....that's your answer right there. Who the hell cares about "still able to". Either it's the best available tool for the job or it goes on the scrapheap (unless it offers something extra, fun factor for example). Looks like it will still be the best in some missioning situations, so I'll keep my Ravens handy.
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The Fates
Caldari
Crimson Shadows
Crimson Empire.
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Posted - 2007.11.20 13:05:00 -
[75]
Originally by: Kaathar Rielspar
The range is still too short imo. Torps are also used to great effect vs pos shields and with this change the raven will be the only one capable of fielding torps vs a pos shield due to the range bonus on the ship. This leaves BS's without a range bonus boned.
Imo, they should have a max skill base range of 30km or so in order to keep them viable weapons for BS (other than a raven) pos siege. You raven pilots can add your ship bonus on to that 30km max skill range.
This. Leave RoF alone or increase it less to compensate for range.
Originally by: Incantare
Meh, just switch to cruise.
Yes.
Don't specialize too much. CCP will just change what you trained for. Its happened too many times to count now, they never get it right. If you can't live with this, don't play EVE.
__
Be content with your lot; one cannot be first in everything. --Aesop |
Gorefacer
Caldari
Resurrection
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Posted - 2007.11.20 13:16:00 -
[76]
It looks great to me. Looking forward to it.
"You can't reason someone out of a belief they haven't reasoned themselves into" - Prometheus |
Birkinz
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Posted - 2007.11.20 13:45:00 -
[77]
Quote:
CCP knows what's best for the game, and personally I'm really impressed with how in touch they are with the community, more so than ANY other GAME I've ever played.
Agreed! seriously, its not easy to balance a game with hundreds of ships, players of vastly different skill point levels and different areas such as 0.0/low sec/empire.
The balance is not perfect but its the imperfection that makes it interesting.
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Dray
Caldari
Spartan Industries
Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2007.11.20 14:48:00 -
[78]
Originally by: Leandro Salazar
Originally by: James Lyrus
Originally by: Paulo Damarr
Edited by: Paulo Damarr on 18/11/2007 00:23:07
For mission running with torps its a nerf but for pvp it could be a huge boost for caldari, So for the greater good mission runners will have to take this on the chin.
Very marginally so though. Cruise missiles are as effective as they've ever been, and ... they're actually about as fast at clearing the average level 4 as torps.
Or, fit a speed mod on your raven, and do the same thing as every other close range damage BS has to - and revel in having 33% more DPS.
(And yes, I do do missions, quite a lot)
For most missions I do in my CNR, using cruise would mean losing a lot of efficiency. That is in a faction/officer pimped ship with 2 TPs of course, but still. The real strong point of cruise missiles is ease of use and versatility. Not efficiency. Most if not all turret boats should be able to surpass the efficiency of cruise fits against the correct enemies (at least with the current unnerfed TCs).
I see your point about mission running but in all honesty I find a pimped cruise cnr way better for missions, I know defenders can pop 1 cruise but I still find them better especially with all the cruisers in L4 missions.
That said i can now use a raven in PVP which is a good trade off for the change to torps.
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Esmenet
Gallente
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Posted - 2007.11.20 15:07:00 -
[79]
Originally by: Dray
I see your point about mission running but in all honesty I find a pimped cruise cnr way better for missions, I know defenders can pop 1 cruise but I still find them better especially with all the cruisers in L4 missions.
That said i can now use a raven in PVP which is a good trade off for the change to torps.
I find that hard to believe as you take a large dent in your dps by going from torps to cruise. The combo of torps and medium drones clears the rats quite a lot faster than cruise, especially considering defender missiles. But to get max efficiency with torps you have to pay attention to what you are doing more than with cruise because torps are so slow.
The only mission i can think of that might have an advantage to cruise is massive attack where its just frigs and cruisers.
Your signature exceeds the maximum allowed filesize of 24000 bytes -Kreul Intentions ([email protected]) |
Alowishus
Shadows of the Dead
Aftermath Alliance
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Posted - 2007.11.20 15:17:00 -
[80]
I'm still trying to figure out exactly what the change is, where is it documented? So far I see:
Torps get reduced range- speed, flight time or both?
Torps get better damage- only on larger targets?
What about cruise, any changes there?
I use a Raven to rat (yeah, who doesn't?) and I don't know how the change will affect me exactly at this point. But change is fun. I've been using a similar setup since 2005 and it'll be nice to mix things up. MWD on an NPC Raven? That sounds like fun.
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Esmenet
Gallente
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Posted - 2007.11.20 15:17:00 -
[81]
A lot of people will naturally complain about the torp nerf as they have specifically trained caldari BS to do missions. Its been the king of missions for a long time and generally seen as bad for pvp.
But in terms of overall balance you might say that the raven got a much needed pvp boost, and with the nerf to its PVE it wont be that special for missions anymore. You can probably do missions just as efficient, if not better, in for instance a amarr BS as long as you dont take missions against certain factions.
Your signature exceeds the maximum allowed filesize of 24000 bytes -Kreul Intentions ([email protected]) |
Dray
Caldari
Spartan Industries
Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2007.11.20 15:35:00 -
[82]
Edited by: Dray on 20/11/2007 15:37:35
Originally by: Esmenet
Originally by: Dray
I see your point about mission running but in all honesty I find a pimped cruise cnr way better for missions, I know defenders can pop 1 cruise but I still find them better especially with all the cruisers in L4 missions.
That said i can now use a raven in PVP which is a good trade off for the change to torps.
I find that hard to believe as you take a large dent in your dps by going from torps to cruise. The combo of torps and medium drones clears the rats quite a lot faster than cruise, especially considering defender missiles. But to get max efficiency with torps you have to pay attention to what you are doing more than with cruise because torps are so slow.
The only mission i can think of that might have an advantage to cruise is massive attack where its just frigs and cruisers.
Tbh ive never used torps for mission running, for the record tho I have all support skills for missiles at 5 plus cruise spec 5, that plus 4 5% missile hardwires, and 3 dg bcus my rof iirc is @6 seconds and base damage of over 600 with faction cruise and just under 600 with regular, forgot to add with a target painter for the smaller stuff, no cruiser ive encountered ever takes more than 2 volleys, some only one volley.
With that cnr i can blitz angel extrav in @45-50mins, fastest may be 42 mins not 100% on that.
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Dilsnik
Celestial Horizon Corp.
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Posted - 2007.11.20 17:05:00 -
[83]
When ccp wanted to add short range/high damage to cruiser sized launchers/missile users, they added heavy assault missiles. (Leaving Heavy Missiles unchanged.)
To add the same functionality to Battleship sized launchers/missile users, they should have added heavy assault Torps.(Leaving Torps unchanged.) |
Selia Rain
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Posted - 2007.11.20 17:46:00 -
[84]
Originally by: Dilsnik
When ccp wanted to add short range/high damage to cruiser sized launchers/missile users, they added heavy assault missiles. (Leaving Heavy Missiles unchanged.)
To add the same functionality to Battleship sized launchers/missile users, they should have added heavy assault Torps.(Leaving Torps unchanged.)
Why would they need to do that when torps already supposedly filled that role?
Seems silly to me to have 3 different weapons systems for 3 different engagement ranges...
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Derrios
Digital Fury Corporation
Digital Renegades
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Posted - 2007.11.20 18:06:00 -
[85]
eos ***** slap is the worst nerf ;p
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J Valkor
Blackguard Brigade
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Posted - 2007.11.20 18:18:00 -
[86]
Originally by: Dilsnik
When ccp wanted to add short range/high damage to cruiser sized launchers/missile users, they added heavy assault missiles. (Leaving Heavy Missiles unchanged.)
To add the same functionality to Battleship sized launchers/missile users, they should have added heavy assault Torps.(Leaving Torps unchanged.)
Except there were only heavy missiles, unless you are counting assault launchers as equivelent to cruisers. I don't.
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Selia Rain
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Posted - 2007.11.20 19:39:00 -
[87]
Originally by: J Valkor
Originally by: Dilsnik
When ccp wanted to add short range/high damage to cruiser sized launchers/missile users, they added heavy assault missiles. (Leaving Heavy Missiles unchanged.)
To add the same functionality to Battleship sized launchers/missile users, they should have added heavy assault Torps.(Leaving Torps unchanged.)
Except there were only heavy missiles, unless you are counting assault launchers as equivelent to cruisers. I don't.
If CCP wanted there to be some parallel battleship to assault launchers+light missiles, they would have introduced a high(er-ish) rof launcher system to spew heavy missiles from battleships and take advantage of battleship bonuses.
Assault heavy missile launch system? seems confusing.
Siege heavy missile launcher? sounds silly and also confusing.
THE REASON THEY NEVER INTRODUCED THIS WAS BECAUSE IT WOULD BE HARD TO NAME(not to mention balancing it).
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sullahp
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Posted - 2007.11.20 20:22:00 -
[88]
Originally by: mechtech
Originally by: sullahp
well, i still think it's not right and no matter what little old me, the paying customer says, ccp are still going to go through with this wether i like it or not. so i guess i'll just have to lump it and perhaps sit back and wonder why i trained torps to l5 and torp spec to l4....i hardly ever use caldari bs for pvp, i tend to go with gallente/minmitar for that, if and when i do use a bs. i generally use my other toys for pvp, mission running is pretty much my only source of income when we're not at war etc, that's the reason i'm annoyed with this, i think i said that b4 but nvm.
but as it turns out it may well be to my advantage but i don't know if i'll be using a raven for pvp even still...
CCP knows what's best for the game, and personally I'm really impressed with how in touch they are with the community, more so than ANY other mmo I've ever played.
Now on the torp change (NOT a nerf, they are better for PvP, and really put the raven up with the other top close-mid range BSs).
How exactly is this a bad change? Caldari was a lopsided race, this helps even them out, and also gives them a short range weapon and a long range one like the other races. Caldari are still able to PVE as well, they are still a very viable race to do that.
Eve changes CONSTANTLY, can you imagine there was a time when Amarr was the best race? Balancing is an ongoing process that usually takes place in every major patch (wow, can you see the pattern?)
You have to expect change in eve. Adapt or die, roll with the punches, and believe it or not you'll be fine at the end of it.
it's a bad change for the people who run missions....(takes deep breaths lol =p)
yea, i can remember the time (i lived through it) when the apoc was the best bs around, then that got nerfed. then the raven got a torp damage bonus giving it 25% more dmg if you had bs to l5, it got to such a point that over 50% of all battleships in eve were raven's...then it got (slightly) nerfed, ccp enhanced the missile skill tree (you had to spend months of skill training time just to bring a raven back up to a semi respectable dps even thoughh, imo, it was a fair deal) to bring it in line with the gunnery skill tree and did all sorts of wonderful things to missiles...and the cycle continues (wow, i've lived through the pattern).
i'm impressed with the way they run the game as well mostly, it's little things like this that irk me though, your right, ccp does know what's best for the game but not always what's best for the induvidual.
anyhow, i'm used to the idea, i already have those nice t2 cruise launchers bought and ready to be slapped onto the cnr for when the time comes.
i know fine well how change comes along in eve.
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Emperor D'Hoffryn
No Quarter.
Vae Victis.
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Posted - 2007.11.20 21:58:00 -
[89]
Originally by: sullahp
Originally by: mechtech
Originally by: sullahp
well, i still think it's not right and no matter what little old me, the paying customer says, ccp are still going to go through with this wether i like it or not. so i guess i'll just have to lump it and perhaps sit back and wonder why i trained torps to l5 and torp spec to l4....i hardly ever use caldari bs for pvp, i tend to go with gallente/minmitar for that, if and when i do use a bs. i generally use my other toys for pvp, mission running is pretty much my only source of income when we're not at war etc, that's the reason i'm annoyed with this, i think i said that b4 but nvm.
but as it turns out it may well be to my advantage but i don't know if i'll be using a raven for pvp even still...
CCP knows what's best for the game, and personally I'm really impressed with how in touch they are with the community, more so than ANY other mmo I've ever played.
Now on the torp change (NOT a nerf, they are better for PvP, and really put the raven up with the other top close-mid range BSs).
How exactly is this a bad change? Caldari was a lopsided race, this helps even them out, and also gives them a short range weapon and a long range one like the other races. Caldari are still able to PVE as well, they are still a very viable race to do that.
Eve changes CONSTANTLY, can you imagine there was a time when Amarr was the best race? Balancing is an ongoing process that usually takes place in every major patch (wow, can you see the pattern?)
You have to expect change in eve. Adapt or die, roll with the punches, and believe it or not you'll be fine at the end of it.
it's a bad change for the people who run missions....(takes deep breaths lol =p)
yea, i can remember the time (i lived through it) when the apoc was the best bs around, then that got nerfed. then the raven got a torp damage bonus giving it 25% more dmg if you had bs to l5, it got to such a point that over 50% of all battleships in eve were raven's...then it got (slightly) nerfed, ccp enhanced the missile skill tree (you had to spend months of skill training time just to bring a raven back up to a semi respectable dps even thoughh, imo, it was a fair deal) to bring it in line with the gunnery skill tree and did all sorts of wonderful things to missiles...and the cycle continues (wow, i've lived through the pattern).
i'm impressed with the way they run the game as well mostly, it's little things like this that irk me though, your right, ccp does know what's best for the game but not always what's best for the induvidual.
anyhow, i'm used to the idea, i already have those nice t2 cruise launchers bought and ready to be slapped onto the cnr for when the time comes.
i know fine well how change comes along in eve.
It sucks when the way you play is changed by balance adjustments, but tbh, you are refusing to see the situation from any perspective except what you want.
The range on torps on TQ right now is SILLY. The only reason why its not horribly broken is the dps. But torps are supposed to be the high dps short range weapon, akin to(but different from) blasters, ACs, pulses.
When the other races want long range, they have to switch to the lower damaging, harder to fit, higher cap using long range versions of their weapons, rails, beams, arties.
Your long range weapon still uses no cap, can still perfectly change damage types on the raven, and is EASIER to fit.
The raven is still the best at PVE hands down. Im sorry you cannot see this.
Welcome to the other races since 2003.
Originally by: Snuggly
It's just so great to have an actual reason to not die, incentive is fantastic!
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Qui Shon
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Posted - 2007.11.20 22:32:00 -
[90]
Originally by: Emperor D'Hoffryn
The range on torps on TQ right now is SILLY. The only reason why its not horribly broken is the dps. But torps are supposed to be the high dps short range weapon, akin to(but different from) blasters, ACs, pulses.
Why are they supposed to be like that? Is it only because of symmetry, the thing Caldari are renowned for, or is there some other reason everybody keeps saying that?
I don't see why they're silly right now, they have their drawbacks and nobody complained about overpowered torps in PvP, and half the Raven pilots sing the glory of cruises in PvE.
Nobody said they were silly until this change was proposed.
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NCP S2
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Posted - 2007.11.20 22:47:00 -
[91]
Emporer you got it 100% right.
Too many people look at things from only their perspective and the niche role they have decided to spec into. FOTM is a rough thing when it changes...
I always ran lvl 4's in my Raven with cruises... I had no problems. While I didn't have T2 and a billion SP into missiles to get up their with the uber speed times, I still went through pretty fast. I just started training torps as I swapped from high sec missions to 0.0 ratting. I'll see a positive change in this aspect with the torp change. Most rats close range on me, and a handful stay out at 34km. This will be a pain in my butt for those rare situations, but it'll be worth it, for the added DPS I get on everything else.
For PvP, Torps were supposed to be the next step in close range missiles, they were just a bit too rangy, if that's a word... Aside from maybe stealth bombers and the now very rare sniper ship, how many times have you been in the middle of a PvP fight outside of 20km? Maybe 25km max... Eve is nothing but choke points, and if you get stuck at a belt, well, it's your fault anyways. This puts Ravens back into the fight on the front lines. If you don't like being primaried, welcome to the life of every other BS pilot pre Trinity. In short, this change was a long time coming, and it puts Torps in line with all the other short range heavy damage systems.
In short, bring on the torp change. Change is good, change brings out new tactics, new setups, and new ways of thinking. For those of you who can't adapt, well just wait a week or two and I'm sure other people will come out with a new "standard" fit for you to plug into your ship.
Now all I need to do is get my target speed up a little bit, and it's time to take the Raven out for some PvP, watch gate camps run away when a Raven gang shows up. Hell, maybe even sniper ships will make a comeback.
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Rudy Metallo
G.H.O.S.T
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Posted - 2007.11.20 23:16:00 -
[92]
Originally by: Tarron Sarek
It's not a nerf.
Also, read sig.
Ferns arent incompetent. 
And it's not a nerf.
--
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c0ldsnap
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Posted - 2007.11.21 07:15:00 -
[93]
well, it's only going to be a matter of time until people are screaming in the forums in similar threads to this one for torps to be de-'nerfed' when they start losing their shiny stuff to raven's.
i wonder what's getting changed for the greater good next time???
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Atsuko Ratu
Caldari
Advanced Logistics
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Posted - 2007.11.21 20:47:00 -
[94]
Originally by: Dilsnik
When ccp wanted to add short range/high damage to cruiser sized launchers/missile users, they added heavy assault missiles. (Leaving Heavy Missiles unchanged.)
To add the same functionality to Battleship sized launchers/missile users, they should have added heavy assault Torps.(Leaving Torps unchanged.)
Self ownage. Heavy missles = Cruise missles. Torps = Heavy assault missles.
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Ulstan
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Posted - 2007.11.21 21:30:00 -
[95]
We already have a long range battleship class missile.
Changing the torps to be short range high damage battleship class missile seems fine to me, with the added benefit that maybe now you can pvp in a raven without people laughing at you.
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AnKahn
Caldari
Dark Star LTD
Atrocitas
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Posted - 2007.11.21 22:29:00 -
[96]
If I were the Devs I would be amused at how some folks are trying to be clever by pretending to "hate" the new torps. Everyone is obviously chomping at the bit to have a high DPS Raven.
Let's not insult the Dev's intelligence. Instead let's thank them for giving Caldari some PvP love.
But do what you have to in order to try and make sure they don't change their minds. Reverse Psychology is so old school though, don't you think?
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Elain Reverse
Caldari
Shokei
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Posted - 2007.11.21 23:31:00 -
[97]
Originally by: NCP S2
Emporer you got it 100% right.
Too many people look at things from only their perspective and the niche role they have decided to spec into. FOTM is a rough thing when it changes...
I always ran lvl 4's in my Raven with cruises... I had no problems. While I didn't have T2 and a billion SP into missiles to get up their with the uber speed times, I still went through pretty fast. I just started training torps as I swapped from high sec missions to 0.0 ratting. I'll see a positive change in this aspect with the torp change. Most rats close range on me, and a handful stay out at 34km. This will be a pain in my butt for those rare situations, but it'll be worth it, for the added DPS I get on everything else.
For PvP, Torps were supposed to be the next step in close range missiles, they were just a bit too rangy, if that's a word... Aside from maybe stealth bombers and the now very rare sniper ship, how many times have you been in the middle of a PvP fight outside of 20km? Maybe 25km max... Eve is nothing but choke points, and if you get stuck at a belt, well, it's your fault anyways. This puts Ravens back into the fight on the front lines. If you don't like being primaried, welcome to the life of every other BS pilot pre Trinity. In short, this change was a long time coming, and it puts Torps in line with all the other short range heavy damage systems.
In short, bring on the torp change. Change is good, change brings out new tactics, new setups, and new ways of thinking. For those of you who can't adapt, well just wait a week or two and I'm sure other people will come out with a new "standard" fit for you to plug into your ship.
Now all I need to do is get my target speed up a little bit, and it's time to take the Raven out for some PvP, watch gate camps run away when a Raven gang shows up. Hell, maybe even sniper ships will make a comeback.
Oh well most of BS class ships i encouter trying to stay at 50+km range and there is a lot missions when they start at 100km. And now tell me why i should use torps if i cant actually even hit targets whitch are worth to use torps (well you can still destroy structures with it, but they are still often out of range and take way too long to get into range with slow BS ).
So right now i am dumping torps as they will be useles in PVE and starting train for cruise
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Elain Reverse
Caldari
Shokei
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Posted - 2007.11.21 23:37:00 -
[98]
Originally by: AnKahn
If I were the Devs I would be amused at how some folks are trying to be clever by pretending to "hate" the new torps. Everyone is obviously chomping at the bit to have a high DPS Raven.
Let's not insult the Dev's intelligence. Instead let's thank them for giving Caldari some PvP love.
But do what you have to in order to try and make sure they don't change their minds. Reverse Psychology is so old school though, don't you think?
PVP love maybe, but in PVE cruise lack dps whitch torps had, not sure about exact numbers, but my raven is doing L4 missions about 20-30% faster with torps then it can do with cruise (350 vs 500 damage basicaly 5-6 torp waves vs 14 cruise waves to kill same BS).
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Elain Reverse
Caldari
Shokei
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Posted - 2007.11.21 23:48:00 -
[99]
Originally by: Emperor D'Hoffryn
Originally by: sullahp
Originally by: mechtech
Originally by: sullahp
well, i still think it's not right and no matter what little old me, the paying customer says, ccp are still going to go through with this wether i like it or not. so i guess i'll just have to lump it and perhaps sit back and wonder why i trained torps to l5 and torp spec to l4....i hardly ever use caldari bs for pvp, i tend to go with gallente/minmitar for that, if and when i do use a bs. i generally use my other toys for pvp, mission running is pretty much my only source of income when we're not at war etc, that's the reason i'm annoyed with this, i think i said that b4 but nvm.
but as it turns out it may well be to my advantage but i don't know if i'll be using a raven for pvp even still...
CCP knows what's best for the game, and personally I'm really impressed with how in touch they are with the community, more so than ANY other mmo I've ever played.
Now on the torp change (NOT a nerf, they are better for PvP, and really put the raven up with the other top close-mid range BSs).
How exactly is this a bad change? Caldari was a lopsided race, this helps even them out, and also gives them a short range weapon and a long range one like the other races. Caldari are still able to PVE as well, they are still a very viable race to do that.
Eve changes CONSTANTLY, can you imagine there was a time when Amarr was the best race? Balancing is an ongoing process that usually takes place in every major patch (wow, can you see the pattern?)
You have to expect change in eve. Adapt or die, roll with the punches, and believe it or not you'll be fine at the end of it.
it's a bad change for the people who run missions....(takes deep breaths lol =p)
yea, i can remember the time (i lived through it) when the apoc was the best bs around, then that got nerfed. then the raven got a torp damage bonus giving it 25% more dmg if you had bs to l5, it got to such a point that over 50% of all battleships in eve were raven's...then it got (slightly) nerfed, ccp enhanced the missile skill tree (you had to spend months of skill training time just to bring a raven back up to a semi respectable dps even thoughh, imo, it was a fair deal) to bring it in line with the gunnery skill tree and did all sorts of wonderful things to missiles...and the cycle continues (wow, i've lived through the pattern).
i'm impressed with the way they run the game as well mostly, it's little things like this that irk me though, your right, ccp does know what's best for the game but not always what's best for the induvidual.
anyhow, i'm used to the idea, i already have those nice t2 cruise launchers bought and ready to be slapped onto the cnr for when the time comes.
i know fine well how change comes along in eve.
It sucks when the way you play is changed by balance adjustments, but tbh, you are refusing to see the situation from any perspective except what you want.
The range on torps on TQ right now is SILLY. The only reason why its not horribly broken is the dps. But torps are supposed to be the high dps short range weapon, akin to(but different from) blasters, ACs, pulses.
When the other races want long range, they have to switch to the lower damaging, harder to fit, higher cap using long range versions of their weapons, rails, beams, arties.
Your long range weapon still uses no cap, can still perfectly change damage types on the raven, and is EASIER to fit.
The raven is still the best at PVE hands down. Im sorry you cannot see this.
Welcome to the other races since 2003.
And how about size of ammo ? I am sure in your cargo you can fit torps for about same amount of time as other weapons ? /irony
Thats also not equal compared to other weapons and i think DPS for cruise missiles and for example long range energy weapons is quite lower.
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Gamesguy
Amarr
D00M.
Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2007.11.22 00:22:00 -
[100]
Originally by: Elain Reverse
Originally by: AnKahn
If I were the Devs I would be amused at how some folks are trying to be clever by pretending to "hate" the new torps. Everyone is obviously chomping at the bit to have a high DPS Raven.
Let's not insult the Dev's intelligence. Instead let's thank them for giving Caldari some PvP love.
But do what you have to in order to try and make sure they don't change their minds. Reverse Psychology is so old school though, don't you think?
PVP love maybe, but in PVE cruise lack dps whitch torps had, not sure about exact numbers, but my raven is doing L4 missions about 20-30% faster with torps then it can do with cruise (350 vs 500 damage basicaly 5-6 torp waves vs 14 cruise waves to kill same BS).
Except compare to lasers, artillery, and rails, cruise is still better at PvE.
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d026
THE LEGION OF STEEL WARRIORS....
R0ADKILL
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Posted - 2007.11.22 01:03:00 -
[101]
Originally by: Elain Reverse
Originally by: AnKahn
If I were the Devs I would be amused at how some folks are trying to be clever by pretending to "hate" the new torps. Everyone is obviously chomping at the bit to have a high DPS Raven.
Let's not insult the Dev's intelligence. Instead let's thank them for giving Caldari some PvP love.
But do what you have to in order to try and make sure they don't change their minds. Reverse Psychology is so old school though, don't you think?
PVP love maybe, but in PVE cruise lack dps whitch torps had, not sure about exact numbers, but my raven is doing L4 missions about 20-30% faster with torps then it can do with cruise (350 vs 500 damage basicaly 5-6 torp waves vs 14 cruise waves to kill same BS).
golem wirth cruise missiles will be almost as efficient as a torp cnr. get one!
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Qui Shon
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Posted - 2007.11.22 01:45:00 -
[102]
Originally by: Gamesguy
Except compare to lasers, artillery, and rails, cruise is still better at PvE.
Beam/Tach AbaGeddon beats the snot out of Cruise Raven, and beats Cruise CNR a alot of the time too, at least on paper. Sentry Rail Domi beats the snot out of Cruise Raven for Therm/Kin rats, and can be made to beat Cruise CNR within rat orbit ranges as well, though I can't make that a solo fit.
Artillery I haven't looked into.
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AnKahn
Caldari
Dark Star LTD
Atrocitas
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Posted - 2007.11.22 04:24:00 -
[103]
Originally by: Qui Shon
Originally by: Gamesguy
Except compare to lasers, artillery, and rails, cruise is still better at PvE.
Beam/Tach AbaGeddon beats the snot out of Cruise Raven, and beats Cruise CNR a alot of the time too, at least on paper. Sentry Rail Domi beats the snot out of Cruise Raven for Therm/Kin rats, and can be made to beat Cruise CNR within rat orbit ranges as well, though I can't make that a solo fit.
Artillery I haven't looked into.
So yea! Raven not the solo mission pwnmobile anymore. Someone might actually try a different ship on lvl 4 missions? This change seems more brilliant the more you look at it.
And you Raven mission runners with 9999 mil SP in torps? Hey, don't know what you've heard, but there's this thing in EvE called PvP. Maybe you can help us kill a few pirates to make your mission running safer?
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Sylper Illysten
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Posted - 2007.11.22 06:18:00 -
[104]
Edited by: Sylper Illysten on 22/11/2007 06:19:13
Originally by: d026
golem wirth cruise missiles will be almost as efficient as a torp cnr. get one!
Golem doesn't have enough grid to mount 4 decent launchers. Then add in defender spam. All the Marauders are junk ships.
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The Fates
Caldari
Crimson Shadows
Crimson Empire.
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Posted - 2007.11.23 11:41:00 -
[105]
Originally by: c0ldsnap
i wonder what's getting changed for the greater good next time???
QFT
__
Be content with your lot; one cannot be first in everything. --Aesop |
Elain Reverse
Caldari
Shokei
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Posted - 2007.11.23 12:28:00 -
[106]
Originally by: d026
Originally by: Elain Reverse
Originally by: AnKahn
If I were the Devs I would be amused at how some folks are trying to be clever by pretending to "hate" the new torps. Everyone is obviously chomping at the bit to have a high DPS Raven.
Let's not insult the Dev's intelligence. Instead let's thank them for giving Caldari some PvP love.
But do what you have to in order to try and make sure they don't change their minds. Reverse Psychology is so old school though, don't you think?
PVP love maybe, but in PVE cruise lack dps whitch torps had, not sure about exact numbers, but my raven is doing L4 missions about 20-30% faster with torps then it can do with cruise (350 vs 500 damage basicaly 5-6 torp waves vs 14 cruise waves to kill same BS).
golem wirth cruise missiles will be almost as efficient as a torp cnr. get one!
Not sure about it, mostly doing PVE in Caldari space and that means often at least 2 defenders whitch will lower DPS of golem by 50% and even without defenders i dont think 4x cruise with double damage can match 7x torp.
Not mentioning even as my BS rating skills almost maxed i still need 85 days training to be able learn both new BS clases (no jump drive, EW and adw weapons here as they was so far waste of time as i didnt need them).
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Gorefacer
Caldari
Resurrection
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Posted - 2007.11.23 13:15:00 -
[107]
Originally by: Elain Reverse
Originally by: AnKahn
If I were the Devs I would be amused at how some folks are trying to be clever by pretending to "hate" the new torps. Everyone is obviously chomping at the bit to have a high DPS Raven.
Let's not insult the Dev's intelligence. Instead let's thank them for giving Caldari some PvP love.
But do what you have to in order to try and make sure they don't change their minds. Reverse Psychology is so old school though, don't you think?
PVP love maybe, but in PVE cruise lack dps whitch torps had, not sure about exact numbers, but my raven is doing L4 missions about 20-30% faster with torps then it can do with cruise (350 vs 500 damage basicaly 5-6 torp waves vs 14 cruise waves to kill same BS).
So now the Raven may be comparable to the PVE effectiveness of other races ships, would that be so bad?
It will still be up there with the best, AND if you ever choose to PVP there is a more viable option for you than before, sounds like we can't lose.
"You can't reason someone out of a belief they haven't reasoned themselves into" - Prometheus |
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