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CCP's total apathy toward disabled gamers.

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Khes	Posted - 2007.11.20 18:04:00 - [91] Edited by: Khes on 20/11/2007 18:04:30 Not that it help much at all because you dont have time reading it, but there is a sign that says who is trying to warp-scramble who. I don't know exactly when this sign shows up because I don't see it everytime someone in my gang warpscramble someone. But it is there sometimes
Zolofine M34t p0p s1ckle Manufacturing Privateer Alliance	Posted - 2007.11.20 18:05:00 - [92] Originally by: Dextrius Spambunker is likely an alt from Goonswarm and he is just trying more dirty tricks to bash EVE and CCP like the goonswarm always do. this definately sounds like something a goonswarm guy would do given their track record. Yes... Let us go to Defcon 3 and call Michael Moore to the pentagon to investigate the matter...
Cailais Amarr W A R	Posted - 2007.11.20 19:00:00 - [93] Im not colour deficient (or 'colour blind' as some people refer to it as) and have 20/20 vision. I can't pick out the war scramble effect to well either in certain lights - its just not a very obvious graphic. Best idea Id suggest is for ccp to allow you to modify notifications; that way you could set the notify to remove all damage hits, but just leave warp scramble notifications. C. Originally by: Jenny Spitfire Dehumanisation - griefers are cool and if you are not a griefer, you do not belong here.
Apocryphai Caldari	Posted - 2007.11.20 19:04:00 - [94] Originally by: Sheriff Jones Edited by: Sheriff Jones on 20/11/2007 10:07:45 Edited by: Sheriff Jones on 20/11/2007 10:04:31 First: "In order for him to be playing at all, he'd traded me cash in another game for eve isk. ", so you're an isk seller. Nice. No way around it, you are. Second: It's not CCPs problem that you're sick. If you're a diabetic, should CCP make mandatory breaks(about 5 times a day) so you remember to take your insulin and eat? How about Someone who's blind? Surely he should enjoy EVE through an IMMERSIVE sound world. See where this is going? It's not CCPs problem to fix all problems of people. If the game doesn't fit you or your friend, go to another game. Not to mention, NOONE in EVE knows who's warp scrambling, it's a well documented "Please give us indicators" problem. ALSO, "game artists don't want it in their(as if) game if it's not pretty"? Where the hell have you been working at? You sound like one of those suits who sit in conferences all day and THINK they know what making a game is about. That's the stupidest post I've ever seen you make Jones. In fact it's so stupid it earns a CAOD block, hence I will never see another one of your posts again. Bye. And to the OP, yeah, being colour blind to any extent pretty much sucks for gaming. Very, VERY few gaming companies give a rats ass. The only ray of light is games with really good UI's (WoW for example) that allow modification by players. EVE's UI designers however have never heard of usability, iterative design or interface testing, so don't hold your breath waiting for any sign of intelligence in UI redesign in the future :( Originally by: Victor Valka What the skull-chick said.
Cadela Fria Amarr Sharks With Frickin' Laser Beams Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2007.11.20 19:12:00 - [95] Originally by: Apocryphai EVE's UI designers however have never heard of usability, iterative design or interface testing, so don't hold your breath waiting for any sign of intelligence in UI redesign in the future :( Since when did you crawl inside the brains of the UI designers of EVE and decide what they have, and haven't heard of? Didn't you watch the fanfest presentation, it said in BIG BOLD LETTERS: ITERATION IS KEY! You're another one of those morons spewing crap out without knowing what the hell they're talking about in the first place.
Ming TMerciless	Posted - 2007.11.20 19:12:00 - [96] wont somebody please think of the children My corp is full of alcoholic, dyslexic, insomniac, pot smoking idiots , Were on our own and so are you. This Universe is a harsh place.
Dramaticus GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.11.20 19:12:00 - [97] Originally by: Dextrius Spambunker is likely an alt from Goonswarm and he is just trying more dirty tricks to bash EVE and CCP like the goonswarm always do. this definately sounds like something a goonswarm guy would do given their track record. you caught me
Fenderson Shadow Company FreeFall Securities	Posted - 2007.11.20 19:19:00 - [98] if you read the patch notes from the last year or so you will actually find that there have been several (admittedly minor) UI tweaks specifically aimed at making the game easier for people with color impairment/blindness. im sure its still far from ideal, but you can hardly accuse them of not caring. if you have ideas as to how they can specifically improve it, post in the Features and Ideas discussion board and i bet you would find more improvements going in in the next few iterations of the UI. Originally by: CCP Wrangler Oh dear, how about we all calm down a bit instead?
Chinua Suren Minmatar Republic Military School	Posted - 2007.11.20 19:19:00 - [99] Originally by: Dramaticus you caught me With your pants down? --- None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free. û Goethe
Buyerr	Posted - 2007.11.20 19:37:00 - [100] damn what nice replies you can all give.. a-holes.-... yes warpscrams grafic is a problem and i still dont get why they haven't set in a way to see who is scrambling you or just that your being scrambled like any other EW.

Sheriff Jones Amarr Please Enter Password	Posted - 2007.11.20 19:41:00 - [101] Originally by: Apocryphai That's the stupidest post I've ever seen you make Jones. In fact it's so stupid it earns a CAOD block, hence I will never see another one of your posts again. Bye. Well, sorry to see you feel this way, some counter points would've been more productive though. Simply saying "You're stupid, i don't like you", is a bit juvenile. But, each to their own. Can't please 'em all. I made valid points, as i see them, and it had nothing to do with being colorblind, or ignorance towards disabled people, quite the opposite i believe. My opinions represent the opinions of my corporation completely. I'm the CEO damnit.
Jenny Spitfire Caldari	Posted - 2007.11.20 19:54:00 - [102] Edited by: Jenny Spitfire on 20/11/2007 19:54:02 Originally by: Kaakao Originally by: Jenny Spitfire Some icons like corp mates and war targets are confusing for visually impaired players. If CCP couldn't change colors then change icons. Make it so corp mates are the green with white stars and hostiles are red with yellow circular bull eyes. It is not that hard. :s Its not hard, you can change it yourself in the overview settings. Hello friend of the community. Could you please show or tell me how to make it so that corp mates and war targets are accessible to players with special needs? Thank you :) --------- Technica impendi Caldari generis. Pax Caldaria! Kali is for KArebearLIng. I 100% agree with Avon. Female EVE gamers? Mail Zajo or visit WGOE.Public in-game.
Auron Shadowbane Teeth Of The Hydra R i s e	Posted - 2007.11.20 19:58:00 - [103] sorry to say but not beeing able to see the warp scram effect is not a handicap in eve. noone can see the effect in a "serious" situation because if you zoom in far enough to see that light blue shine you dont see anything else. although I think the "disabled people" card is a nice try to get ccp to implement a feature (the "you are warp scrambled"-button in ui). a good hint would be to kill small rats first. EVER. missions werent designed to be risk free and if you get killed it's because your tank failed and so you failed. finally KNOWING that you are scrambled wouldn't have helped you a bit anyways.
Kelevraen Caldari Earned In Blood Black Sun Cartel	Posted - 2007.11.20 20:10:00 - [104] Not to be a ****, or maybe I to be one, who knows... But: You are your color blind friend should just deal with it. Adapt, or quit. Don't bring your complaints here, because in all honesty, not many people will give a damn. =\ Hi there!
torswin Silver Snake Enterprise Interstellar Starbase Syndicate	Posted - 2007.11.20 20:46:00 - [105] Originally by: Jane Spondogolo Some of you people are ******s. Seriously. Is kicking down folks with disabilities cool now? "Help me out in Eve, and I'll give you a kickback in Wow". Bah thats not selling, its friends helping each other out. Quit being bloody lynch mob loonies. More to the point. I'm a web developer, and this is a very major* issue in our industry. Its somewhere over 10% that have colour blindness, and then you can throw another 5-10% on top of that , that are affected by various colour-sensitive dislexias. So we have to compensate for them. (Note, a lot of websites don't. They tend to make less money). Its an easy thing for CCP to fix. Thow in some options to shift the colours around on the HUD. Even if its just a .ini file option like 'protanopia=1' deuternopia=2' etc, it'll make a world of difference for nearly 1 in 5 players. Win. I'm shocked how people responds to this. Haven't your parents thaught you to never discriminate..? If not, then I feel bad for you. I know two guys (they're brothers) that are colour blind and every now and then they send me screen shots of some weird game and asks me "which one is green?" for instance. It's not EVE that has a problem with discrimination against colour blindness. It's not much of a step to fix either. Can't see why you guys to totally maniac when he just raise an issue that should, in my opinion, be dealt with. --- Unless explicitly stated, this post does not represent my alliance, corporation, my own, or any other living organism's view.
Jenny Spitfire Caldari	Posted - 2007.11.20 20:49:00 - [106] Originally by: torswin Can't see why you guys to totally maniac when he just raise an issue that should, in my opinion, be dealt with. To be honest, it is quite easy. Look at their in-game profession. I am guessing they are some hard core players. :s --------- Technica impendi Caldari generis. Pax Caldaria! Kali is for KArebearLIng. I 100% agree with Avon. Female EVE gamers? Mail Zajo or visit WGOE.Public in-game.
Pitt Bull Caldari	Posted - 2007.11.20 20:53:00 - [107] Originally by: spambunker What do you say to the guy in the wheelchair who wants to get on the bus? Adapt or GTFO.
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2007.11.20 20:54:00 - [108] Originally by: Pitt Bull Originally by: spambunker What do you say to the guy in the wheelchair who wants to get on the bus? Adapt or GTFO. Ok I think you just won the forum. - I wish I was a three foot female doll with a watering can and heterochromatic eyes.
Alz Shado Ever Flow DeStInY.	Posted - 2007.11.20 20:58:00 - [109] Forget for a moment the disability aspect of the OP. It doesn't make any sense that they can't put some kind of visible symbol on the HUD (D stands for DISPLAY) that tells you who is doing what to you. Put a little scram icon next to the ship in the overview, it can't take more than a few minutes of programming time, maybe an artist's lunch hour to resize the PSD and make it look pretty. I've got the advantage of being able to see colors and it even ****es me off that I can't tell who's scrambling me without zooming in to every frig in space. Your client already knows about the scram, it's not going to add lag or anything. What's the use in hiding it?
torswin Silver Snake Enterprise Interstellar Starbase Syndicate	Posted - 2007.11.20 21:02:00 - [110] Originally by: Jenny Spitfire Originally by: torswin Can't see why you guys to totally maniac when he just raise an issue that should, in my opinion, be dealt with. To be honest, it is quite easy. Look at their in-game profession. I am guessing they are some hard core players. :s I think they would love to have more ships to blow up, if the colour blind doesn't have to GTFO since the game has bad designing. --- Unless explicitly stated, this post does not represent my alliance, corporation, my own, or any other living organism's view.

spambunker	Posted - 2007.11.20 21:14:00 - [111] As the original poster, I'd like to address some of the recurring themes of the thread so far: 1) "The warp scram effect is hard to see for everyone." I addressed this in the original post. It's hard to see for everyone, but impossible for a red-green anomolous dichromat. It skews the game away from the disability. 2) "Know who you need to kill." We did. We hopped in and went straight for the scramblers, but there were several and they were backed by about a dozen close-range battleships. Rarely do more than one scram at a time, but finding the one scramming you is very hard. I manage it because I use filter gels for particular tasks to make my ability to distinguish colors easier. It's still nearly useless, though. The time it took to kill half of them was all it took for the tank to collapse. 2a) "There are a ton of mission guides that would have told you A, B, C, and D." So, what... you're telling me that if you don't cheat, you shouldn't expect to be able to play the game? 3) A number of people observed that, in the words of one poster, I "chose the wrong example." That there are far worse violations of high-contrast color design has not escaped either of us. It's just that after nearly a year of pointing these things out to CCP we finally had a major problem as a result of one of them, it is that one item I called out in my post. The red/green issue on active/inactive modules is one so blindingly simple to fix that it is a perfect example of CCPs total disconcern with the issue. 4) "Just join a corp in 0.0." "+" means friend, anything else is an enemy. My friend was in a corp for a while - and was harassed constantly for the effect his color vision had on his game and had no option but to leave. 5) "Game developers can't target every disability..." but they can acknowledge the fact that more than 1 in 10 of their players has this one and it is by far the simplest to design to. The hardware to allow you to play (glasses, orthopedic mouse, special keyboard) are firmly player-side issues, but there isn't anything a player can do about poor color design. The level of garbage rhetoric people invoked on this one was pathetic. 6) "Find/develop/request a third-party mod." The colors that are rendered in a game like this are the result of the shaders that are invoked in your hardware. Modding them is not a realistic option. I do this stuff for a living. Writing them in the first place is hard enough. Reverse engineering someone else's code and rendering engine to do this is out of reach. 7) "How is CCP supposed to know about the problems if they themselves have normal vision?" First, if you'd read the original message, you'd have seen that we've mentioned these things to them before and second - they have CD people on staff, just not in the art department. 8) It amazes me how many people didn't read the first post but still thought they knew enough about what it said to comment on it.
Sheriff Jones Amarr Please Enter Password	Posted - 2007.11.20 21:27:00 - [112] Edited by: Sheriff Jones on 20/11/2007 21:32:27 Edited by: Sheriff Jones on 20/11/2007 21:31:34 Like said previously, it has nothing to do with "being a (insert bad word) towards osmeone with a disability", that's just a...how to put it nicely...juvinile twist of words to make one look like a bad guy? My point was, as spambunker noted on above post, that it shouldn't be CCPs RESPONSIBILITY, as it was implied(not sure if meant) in the original post. NOW, better UI, as in the color thread(other), is a good idea, but the main grief here is the A: Use of a disability to gain leverage(wrong, yes?) and B: Claiming CCP has a responsibility to fix it. C: Claiming they had ample time to fix it, while knowing nothing of how busy they are. and D:, i'm still on the side of isk selling that was a bit "iffy" in the original post. It's all in how you bring it out. If you're constructive, don't try to guilt stuff and be polite, it get treated with respect. If not, you get what you (from some users) get here. I actually find it rather offensive that i, for one, am labeled as "bad guy" for treating disabled people like normal people, in the context that, simply because he's disabled, i shouldn't say it's a bad idea or some other such thing My opinions represent the opinions of my corporation completely. I'm the CEO damnit.
Faye Valerii Caldari Exeunt Omnes	Posted - 2007.11.20 21:34:00 - [113] I'm not colourblind but still can't see the scramble effect : ) Have you thought about a technological solution ? I can't imagine there isn't a dx9 wrapper/filter or driver tweak out there where you can set certain colours to be displayed as another.
Biscuts	Posted - 2007.11.20 21:42:00 - [114] Originally by: spambunker A friend of mine and I were looking for a new game in January, 2007, and decided to give eve a try. I was enjoying it enough to keep it up, but he had major issues with it: he is color deficient. In short, the vast majority of the game is inaccessible to him. He has had to play a very conservative (read, boring) game and avoid the pvp world entirely. We have recently been doing missions together to try to find something to do while we train up for non-combat carreers. Last week, we were in a level 4 mission. Nothing new there - we've done somewhere around 50 together. I'll spare you the details, but in short, when we hit something new - warp scramblers - he was completely at a loss. Being color deficient means that he cannot distinguish the enemy with the warp scrambler from all the guys who are just shooting at him. He lost a 200M isk ship. In order for him to be playing at all, he'd traded me cash in another game for eve isk. His tolerance for eve and especially CCP after about a year of his complaints falling upon deaf ears was more than enough to get him to drop the game, but I applied the thumbscrews and we kept at it despite his ire. I loaned him another 200M, and this time he dropped in the best warp core stabilizers he could get his hands on and still have an operative ship. Despite looking at screen captures for an hour and going through a book of photo filter gels until we found one that would make the sharpest contrast between misc game effects and the warp scram effect, that ship dropped as well. It didn't dawn on me at all until just a few minutes ago that I've never seen him mad. Not in the slightest. It's a moment of shaken faith when a rare person like that goes almost violently ballistic. It's more difficult for a couple reasons: 1) I totally understand his frustration. I, too, have color deficiencies. Not as bad as his, but I recall how impossible it was NOT to take it personally when Homeland FINALLY came out and I FINALLY had it in hand.... and 10 minutes later was posting it on ebay because I couldn't even finish the tutorials. 2) After four years in operation, CCP has had more than enough time to address these issues. After all, more than 10% of gamers are color deficient - why wouldn't they want to address it? The answer is because artists are rather hubristic in this regard. If it isn't pretty to them, they don't want it in their game. I've been working with game artists for a decade. This is an observation for long personal experience. 3) Incidents like this grind into you the fact that what could very easily be a non-issue is in fact an impairing disability ONLY BECAUSE PEOPLE LIKE CCP DON'T TAKE IT SERIOUSLY. Think about it. If Departments of Transportation hang street lighting that is exactly the same color as a red light (to a red-green anomolous dichromatic color deficient like my friend and I) then driving at night suddenly becomes a game of spot the stop light. If you miss one, you die. There are entire areas of the city where I went to college where I can not drive at night. Nothing in my experience has ever shown me a situation where color deficiency had to be a handicap. It is entirely in the hands of those who design color-dependent systems. Architects are required by law to memorize reams of handicapped-access laws, but an art department can't be bothered to run their stuff by the one or two guys in the office who could tell them they're in need of some minor adjustments? I have been that voice in every games company for which I have worked, and it's amazing how much resistance is given to altering something that 'looks great' for 'just a small fraction of the potential buyers.' It's insensitive. It's socially irresponsible. What do you say to the guy in the wheelchair who wants to get on the bus? I lol'd
Daelorn State War Academy	Posted - 2007.11.20 21:43:00 - [115] Originally by: spambunker As 4) "Just join a corp in 0.0." "+" means friend, anything else is an enemy. My friend was in a corp for a while - and was harassed constantly for the effect his color vision had on his game and had no option but to leave. Who?
spambunker	Posted - 2007.11.21 01:49:00 - [116] Originally by: Faye Valerii Have you thought about a technological solution ? I can't imagine there isn't a dx9 wrapper/filter or driver tweak out there where you can set certain colours to be displayed as another. Two problems with that. Even if it were possible, spectrally speaking, you couldn't do this in a context-specific way. For instance, "I want to be able to distinguish those effects which call out positive/negative states by the use of red and green." You could make the reds, say, grey, but it would be for the entire screen or at best, certain parts of it. You'd end up mistaking red cargo containers for grey.... The second problem is the spectral issue. Once the spectrum has been pared down to the red, green, and blue channels, you can't really do a postprocessing adjustment that allows people who have sensitivity issues at those frequencies to differentiate. I'll defer the The best description of the whole issue I've ever read - though the page has some major failings - is at http://www.firelily.com/opinions/color.html. The author discusses, among other things, how easy it is to design to CD viewers. In the end, game companies are like any other. Cash is king. Regardless of which CD issue in eve we're discussing, I think the one thing the posters here have agreed upon is that they do exist. The fact that they exist is a business issue for CCP in that it effects (and when ignored over a long period) alienates a significant percentage of their players. I'm happy to abandon all my other statements and issues in this regard in favor of that one assertion. It's my friend that lost the ship, not I. Though I may well lose a playing partner as a result. My issue is more about the broader case of readily apparent apathy than the individual failings. The latter are just the constituents of the former.
Sarah Aubry Caldari School of Applied Knowledge	Posted - 2007.11.21 02:16:00 - [117] CCP are keeping up with the very latest of technologies and I'm certain as soon as a neural interface is available they will support it. This will get around all known disabilities which don't impede ones ability to think. Until then, can you imagine how boring and disgusting eve would look for the majority of the player base if they designed it for colour blind people? Don't be so selfish.
Tortun Nahme Minmatar Heimatar Services Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.11.21 02:17:00 - [118] just set your monitor to black and white, viola, no pesky colours and you can easily interpret which shade of grey means what, the same as the rest of us frankly there is only so much that can be done to facilitate people with visual disabilities when it coems to a medium that relies on visual cues HEAVILY, if your friend hasn't come to grips with that he is going to be a very sad person all his life Originally by: Cecil Montague They should change that warning on entering low sec to: "Go read Crime and Punishment for a few days then come back."
spambunker	Posted - 2007.11.21 02:53:00 - [119] As it has already been pointed out by other players, it doesn't negatively impact other players to have good color contrast in a game. In fact, developing to CD players gives standard tritanopics better cues from which to work as well. The example of the day seems to be the red/green they use for active/inactive modules. Imagine for a moment how close those shades are in RGB space. The reason you have to stare at it for a second to grok what it's trying to tell you is the same reason it tells me nothing at all - there isn't enough color contrast. On that point, not only did CCP fail to service their CD player population, but failed in the exact same manner almost every player in the game. I guess that the blue-green deficient players (about .1% of the population) probably love it. Their perception of those indicators would be vastly different.
James Duar Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.11.21 03:12:00 - [120] Predictably this thread has the usual amount of "hurr well sucks to be you" towards the disabled. I'm with everyone who supports modifying the game to be more friendly towards color deficient players - no one can sit here and genuinely say that there isn't a problem in EVE currently with trying to determine who is applying what effects to you, color deficient or not.



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