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Why the Onyx change?

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El'essar Viocragh Minmatar FSK23	Posted - 2007.11.23 10:10:00 - [31] Originally by: Moa Tritanium 552,920 Pyerite 138,810 Mexallon 35,916 Isogen 8,718 Nocxium 2,148 Zydrine 541 Megacyte 160 Originally by: Caracal Tritanium 307,488 Pyerite 77,204 Mexallon 25,309 Isogen 5,284 Nocxium 1,276 Zydrine 276 Megacyte 76 Yes wut. If the advanced component requirements were in line with the other HICs they were too high for a tier 2 based tech 2 ship and would have most likely needed to be reduced compared to the Eagle. Anyway, there is a cost progression CCP is trying to maintain. They did exactly that. -- [17:47] <Mephysto> its dead, jim
Deacon Ix Ascendant Strategies Inc.	Posted - 2007.11.23 10:13:00 - [32] lol, I personally don't find the Moa all that ugly, it's certanly not a beautiful ship but it has a certain charm, and if it does the job, what does it matter what it looks like? If every ship looked amazing to one person then they will probably all look aweful to another, varity is good. and ROFL PML at ppl speculating ISK about what is on SISI, 'Diddems' here's a tissue for your tears
08891	Posted - 2007.11.23 10:17:00 - [33] Originally by: El'essar Viocragh Originally by: Moa Tritanium 552,920 Pyerite 138,810 Mexallon 35,916 Isogen 8,718 Nocxium 2,148 Zydrine 541 Megacyte 160 Originally by: Caracal Tritanium 307,488 Pyerite 77,204 Mexallon 25,309 Isogen 5,284 Nocxium 1,276 Zydrine 276 Megacyte 76 Yes wut. If the advanced component requirements were in line with the other HICs they were too high for a tier 2 based tech 2 ship and would have most likely needed to be reduced compared to the Eagle. Anyway, there is a cost progression CCP is trying to maintain. They did exactly that. How does that in any way affect the build cost of the t2 ship? Well if you use it for invention there's a small difference, but that's it. Once you have the bpc the build cost is the same wether it's a moa hull, a caracal hull, or a pink ***** hull.
Balaurah	Posted - 2007.11.23 10:29:00 - [34] Because one of the manufacturing materials required on a t2 ship is its t1 base?

CCP Gangleri	Posted - 2007.11.23 10:34:00 - [35] The Kaalakiota Moa looks just fine in Trinity II There are plenty of examples of railboats turned into missile spammers by Kaalakiota, Cormorant -> Flycatcher anyone? When you invent you are likely to have to build more than one base item to increase the chance, basing off the Caracal would have meant a significant difference between Devoter and Onyx invention costs, with very weak rationale behind it. Speculating with trade on TQ based on Sisi market is just that, speculating.

Jocca Quinn Matari BackBone	Posted - 2007.11.23 11:11:00 - [36] Originally by: CCP Gangleri There are plenty of examples of railboats turned into missile spammers by Kaalakiota, Cormorant -> Flycatcher anyone? Nighthawk also, we should should have guessed that the next KaK ship would have been a railboat made over to missiles. JQ none of us are free as long as one of us is chained none of us are free
Kamikaaazi Caldari Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2007.11.23 11:23:00 - [37] Originally by: CCP Gangleri The Kaalakiota Moa looks just fine in Trinity II There are plenty of examples of railboats turned into missile spammers by Kaalakiota, Cormorant -> Flycatcher anyone? When you invent you are likely to have to build more than one base item to increase the chance, basing off the Caracal would have meant a significant difference between Devoter and Onyx invention costs, with very weak rationale behind it. Speculating with trade on TQ based on Sisi market is just that, speculating. and we all know what happens to turret boats turned to missile boats - they all get gimped powergrid, insane mass and get useless bonuses. yarr
Hayman Wakefield Caldari Guerilla Tactics	Posted - 2007.11.23 11:24:00 - [38] Originally by: CCP Gangleri The Kaalakiota Moa looks just fine in Trinity II Proof or.. well you know the rest. I really want to see the Trinty Moa model as I love my Eagle. It's just a bit hard to aim when you can't look at the screen for the uglyness :) Oh and well done on the rails to missile logic, but we know logic has no place in a whine thread. Originally by: Capt Harlock "I have a mouse with a green tail". It's tail may or may not be green. The car however is mating with a monkey".
Dav Varan	Posted - 2007.11.23 14:23:00 - [39] Boo the Moa hull is fugly Dunno if I can be seen flying an Onyx now :(
Garia666 Amarr T.H.U.G L.I.F.E	Posted - 2007.11.23 14:35:00 - [40] hehe :) this post makes me smile.. ->My Vids<-

Lord DarkStar Gallente Mobile Alcohol Processing Units United Freemen Alliance	Posted - 2007.11.23 15:10:00 - [41] please stop whining as its very pointless in this,if they used the cara then they would have to change all 3 other ship hulls to the teir 2,and incase you didnt realize you need the T1 hull to build a T2 ship,so if they had everyone elses a teir 3 and caldari a teir 2 it changes build times costs ect,so no its not gona be changed and suck it up We of the Unicorn clan are the best horsemen in the land,our horses are our lives and brothers,we fight as one,we live as one,we die as one.
Boomershoot Caldari Insurgent New Eden Tribe Deus Ex.	Posted - 2007.11.23 15:23:00 - [42] well, i hope the moa and its variant will have a nice texture in the graphic update...at least i don't have to go flying with a blindfold on because my ship is epicly ugly :( Originally by: 'CCP Nozh' We did not expect the requests to prematurely end dear Zulupark's existence in this universe, some of which were very imaginative
Scimon Tinker	Posted - 2007.11.23 15:30:00 - [43] Originally by: CCP Gangleri The Kaalakiota Moa looks just fine in Trinity II There are plenty of examples of railboats turned into missile spammers by Kaalakiota, Cormorant -> Flycatcher anyone? When you invent you are likely to have to build more than one base item to increase the chance, basing off the Caracal would have meant a significant difference between Devoter and Onyx invention costs, with very weak rationale behind it. Speculating with trade on TQ based on Sisi market is just that, speculating. Ships dont have a meta level and been said to have no impact on the success of invention. You can tap Greyscale on the shoulder about this as i believe has has also confirmed this before.
Merin Ryskin FinFleet Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.11.23 16:27:00 - [44] Originally by: CCP Gangleri The Kaalakiota Moa looks just fine in Trinity II There are plenty of examples of railboats turned into missile spammers by Kaalakiota, Cormorant -> Flycatcher anyone? When you invent you are likely to have to build more than one base item to increase the chance, basing off the Caracal would have meant a significant difference between Devoter and Onyx invention costs, with very weak rationale behind it. Speculating with trade on TQ based on Sisi market is just that, speculating. How about a far better idea: increase the build cost of the Onyx a bit to compensate for the lower invention cost. Because honestly, even ignoring the odd rails -> missile change, nothing short of a massive redesign is going to make the Moa look "just fine". Of course you could give us some screenshots of the Trinity II Onyx to ease our fears...
Mai Mailynn	Posted - 2007.11.23 16:32:00 - [45] yes, let's make the Onyx the cheapest HIC, so that some people will find it more attractive. :P It's not like the Broadsword is gonna be beautiful or anything. Rupture looks (or at least has up till the graphics remake, no idea what it will look like now, just like you don't know what the moa will look like) like a pirate ship, with the front end cut off.
Random Womble Minmatar Master Miners Aftermath Alliance	Posted - 2007.11.23 17:22:00 - [46] Realy stop complaining alot of us minmatar pilots would have rather had a stabber hull for the broadsword so what you dont get your chosen look you cant have everything. What you do have however is possibly the best HIC with its ability to spam missiles while running around pretty fast.
Liang Nuren The Avalon Foundation Knights Of Syndicate	Posted - 2007.11.23 17:43:00 - [47] Edited by: Liang Nuren on 23/11/2007 17:43:45 Originally by: CCP Gangleri The Kaalakiota Moa looks just fine in Trinity II There are plenty of examples of railboats turned into missile spammers by Kaalakiota, Cormorant -> Flycatcher anyone? When you invent you are likely to have to build more than one base item to increase the chance, basing off the Caracal would have meant a significant difference between Devoter and Onyx invention costs, with very weak rationale behind it. Speculating with trade on TQ based on Sisi market is just that, speculating. I disagree: the Moa is ungodly ugly, even in the screenies I saw. But, good on you guys for screwing up someone's invention hopes. Liang Ed: BTW, I WAS training up for the Onyx, but now... probably the Broadsword -- Retired forum *****. Plz tell me to STFU. Yarr?
Incantare Caldari Kernel of War Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2007.11.23 17:49:00 - [48] Originally by: Random Womble Realy stop complaining alot of us minmatar pilots would have rather had a stabber hull for the broadsword so what you dont get your chosen look you cant have everything. What you do have however is possibly the best HIC with its ability to spam missiles while running around pretty fast. Judging by the whine level in ships and modules and its stats, that'll be the broadsword. It's not about getting your chosen hull, it's that the Moa is fugly.
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2007.11.23 18:22:00 - [49] Originally by: 08891 There aren't any pics of the trinity moa as far as I know, but they did release some nice looking screens of the new caracal. And you are officially a genius as after being warned for spamming with that lik you repost it. For the Moa I like it, it is a Hippocampus or Sea Horse. Or if you prefer it is similar to the Moa Linki to the Wiki about Moa. i fyou look the skeleton it is it , neck bones included.
Benn Helmsman Caldari Dark Prophecy Inc.	Posted - 2007.11.23 18:43:00 - [50] Edited by: Benn Helmsman on 23/11/2007 18:44:25 Edited by: Benn Helmsman on 23/11/2007 18:43:06 Well, looks like the Onyx will become the most expensive Hic by far, since very few will have BPC to make them. Maybe i am wrong, but hasnt there been an Devblog, announcing the caracal hull for onyx? This would make the statement "speculation on base of SiSi" kinda not really good. There Linkage

Ciara Daag	Posted - 2007.11.23 19:17:00 - [51] Originally by: Ina Mina Wow...stupid mistakes for sure, if you wanted it to be the damn MOA model, why didnt you use that in the first place? Guess its time to try to dump some bloody caracal prints and make Moa. Thanks for nothing. Your kiddign right? You made decisions on tranq based on sisi,which everyone knows is subject to change,and now your mad becuase it changed? On the other hand,caracle prints are pretty damn cheap so who cares.
Benn Helmsman Caldari Dark Prophecy Inc.	Posted - 2007.11.23 20:01:00 - [52] Originally by: Ciara Daag Originally by: Ina Mina Wow...stupid mistakes for sure, if you wanted it to be the damn MOA model, why didnt you use that in the first place? Guess its time to try to dump some bloody caracal prints and make Moa. Thanks for nothing. Your kiddign right? You made decisions on tranq based on sisi,which everyone knows is subject to change,and now your mad becuase it changed? On the other hand,caracle prints are pretty damn cheap so who cares. DevBlog != SiSi
James Lyrus Lyrus Associates Enuma Elish.	Posted - 2007.11.24 00:55:00 - [53] Originally by: Benn Helmsman Originally by: Ciara Daag Originally by: Ina Mina Wow...stupid mistakes for sure, if you wanted it to be the damn MOA model, why didnt you use that in the first place? Guess its time to try to dump some bloody caracal prints and make Moa. Thanks for nothing. Your kiddign right? You made decisions on tranq based on sisi,which everyone knows is subject to change,and now your mad becuase it changed? On the other hand,caracle prints are pretty damn cheap so who cares. DevBlog != SiSi Test server = for testing. So you can, y'know, find stuff, before it hits main servers. Such as noticing the problem of Onyxs requiring cheaper ships as their base components. -- Crane needs more grid 249km locking? GMP and TNP
Benn Helmsman Caldari Dark Prophecy Inc.	Posted - 2007.11.24 06:33:00 - [54] Which could be compensated by putting the remaining minerals in the onyx material bill? Would be way better than screwing the whole onyx and the people who work on making them available in the game in first place.
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2007.11.24 07:32:00 - [55] Originally by: Benn Helmsman Which could be compensated by putting the remaining minerals in the onyx material bill? Would be way better than screwing the whole onyx and the people who work on making them available in the game in first place. Minerals used in the T2 building process are influenced by the ME of the BPC, so higher cost for the higher quantity of minerals required, while the T1 hull used is not influenced by the ME of the T2 BPC. This mean that to get the price/material used roughly on par with the other ships in the class it require a tier 3 hull.
Benn Helmsman Caldari Dark Prophecy Inc.	Posted - 2007.11.24 08:29:00 - [56] Edited by: Benn Helmsman on 24/11/2007 08:32:43 Originally by: Venkul Mul Originally by: Benn Helmsman Which could be compensated by putting the remaining minerals in the onyx material bill? Would be way better than screwing the whole onyx and the people who work on making them available in the game in first place. Minerals used in the T2 building process are influenced by the ME of the BPC, so higher cost for the higher quantity of minerals required, while the T1 hull used is not influenced by the ME of the T2 BPC. This mean that to get the price/material used roughly on par with the other ships in the class it require a tier 3 hull. ?? What? You take mineral requirements of the moa, substract the requirements of the caracal from it and put it with a little adjustment on the onyx bill of material... and if there is a difference of a few hundred k in the end, who cares? Add: And if you still need to whine about this tiny difference, i demand that the moa takes exactly the same minerals to build than a thorax, because it needs more of everything, so what the hell?
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2007.11.24 09:39:00 - [57] Edited by: Venkul Mul on 24/11/2007 09:40:34 Originally by: Benn Helmsman Edited by: Benn Helmsman on 24/11/2007 08:32:43 Originally by: Venkul Mul Originally by: Benn Helmsman Which could be compensated by putting the remaining minerals in the onyx material bill? Would be way better than screwing the whole onyx and the people who work on making them available in the game in first place. Minerals used in the T2 building process are influenced by the ME of the BPC, so higher cost for the higher quantity of minerals required, while the T1 hull used is not influenced by the ME of the T2 BPC. This mean that to get the price/material used roughly on par with the other ships in the class it require a tier 3 hull. ?? What? You take mineral requirements of the moa, substract the requirements of the caracal from it and put it with a little adjustment on the onyx bill of material... and if there is a difference of a few hundred k in the end, who cares? Add: And if you still need to whine about this tiny difference, i demand that the moa takes exactly the same minerals to build than a thorax, because it needs more of everything, so what the hell? The one whining "My BPC, my dear Caracal BPC" are the people that tried to profit for a still not definiive choice. it was a worthwile gamble, but still a gamble. Some time you win, some time you lose. I have taken the more sure approach and prepared BPC of both ships. Less gain overall, but more sure, and the BPC will not be wasted even if they will not be used for the HIC.
James Lyrus Lyrus Associates Enuma Elish.	Posted - 2007.11.24 11:06:00 - [58] Originally by: Venkul Mul Edited by: Venkul Mul on 24/11/2007 09:40:34 Originally by: Benn Helmsman Edited by: Benn Helmsman on 24/11/2007 08:32:43 Originally by: Venkul Mul Originally by: Benn Helmsman Which could be compensated by putting the remaining minerals in the onyx material bill? Would be way better than screwing the whole onyx and the people who work on making them available in the game in first place. Minerals used in the T2 building process are influenced by the ME of the BPC, so higher cost for the higher quantity of minerals required, while the T1 hull used is not influenced by the ME of the T2 BPC. This mean that to get the price/material used roughly on par with the other ships in the class it require a tier 3 hull. ?? What? You take mineral requirements of the moa, substract the requirements of the caracal from it and put it with a little adjustment on the onyx bill of material... and if there is a difference of a few hundred k in the end, who cares? Add: And if you still need to whine about this tiny difference, i demand that the moa takes exactly the same minerals to build than a thorax, because it needs more of everything, so what the hell? The one whining "My BPC, my dear Caracal BPC" are the people that tried to profit for a still not definiive choice. it was a worthwile gamble, but still a gamble. Some time you win, some time you lose. I have taken the more sure approach and prepared BPC of both ships. Less gain overall, but more sure, and the BPC will not be wasted even if they will not be used for the HIC. I'm less fussed about the BPO/BPC and waste, than the fact that the Moa is far uglier than the Caracal. And of course, that the invention specialists who've been geared up based on the devblog are going to have to switch, which means lower production in the early days, and thus higher prices. shrug. Kaalakiota colours on SiSi at the moment looks like nothing so much as something I'd expect to be seeing floating in my toilet. I mean, black and orange is nice. Murkey 'I have digestive problems' brown, and a sort of similar 'I have digestive problems yellow' just aren't good combinations. -- Crane needs more grid 249km locking? GMP and TNP
Incantare Caldari Kernel of War Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2007.11.24 11:17:00 - [59] Originally by: CCP Gangleri The Kaalakiota Moa looks just fine in Trinity II. Unless the ship was completly redesigned, I don't believe you.
Venkul Mul Gallente	Posted - 2007.11.24 14:20:00 - [60] Originally by: James Lyrus I'm less fussed about the BPO/BPC and waste, than the fact that the Moa is far uglier than the Caracal. And of course, that the invention specialists who've been geared up based on the devblog are going to have to switch, which means lower production in the early days, and thus higher prices. shrug. Kaalakiota colours on SiSi at the moment looks like nothing so much as something I'd expect to be seeing floating in my toilet. I mean, black and orange is nice. Murkey 'I have digestive problems' brown, and a sort of similar 'I have digestive problems yellow' just aren't good combinations. As already pointed I like the Sea Horse look of the Moa, so if that is the problem I disagree, but it is a matter of taste. I haven't jet seen the Sisi colours, but if your description is right there are better combinations.



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