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Ernest Graefenberg
Minmatar
Cutting Edge Incorporated
RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2007.11.24 00:46:00 -
[1]
Changes that suck:
- 25% speed reduction to all Interdictors. This puts a polysabre at just under 5km/s, and everything else at completely useless m/s. At that speed level even a majority of missiles are only a hair off doing lethal damage.
- Aggression for Warp Disrupt probes. Anyone trying to warp out of a warp disrupt probe (including yourself, lulz) now causes aggression.
Why this is bad:
Because being in a bigass group is already about as safe as it gets in EvE. Anyone that's going to give you trouble has to get into an equally big group, which takes time and is not that hard to spot. If you only have to worry about targetted or aggressed tackling (by slow dictors, lol), you pretty much don't have to worry about anything short of losing 1-2 people to not aligning.
The new speeds are also so low, that outside the Gistied, LG-snaked and polyed Sabre every other Interdictor is pretty much trash. The nature of avoiding damage means you need to be at least remotely as fast as the things likely to put webs on you - as of now on SiSi, a poly Sabre is slower than a vanilla Keres and massively slower than any interceptor. Offensive tackling is already at a disadvantage near gates due to often lacking the Rapid Deployment bonus that defenders get.
On top of that, Sabres in particular but 'dictors all-round are the prime counter to fast warpers and reapproachers, particularly cruisers and the like. Giving their bubble aggression and making the ship itself worse than any fastwarping cruiser lets these reign even more freely, again.
The net effect is, safer blobs, easier nano-fagging once you don't have to worry about one or two smart Sabres ruining some expensive ships and a vastly less interesting ship to fly.
Suggestion:
Just roll the changes back to current TQ status, and buff the other Interdictors into the realm of being able to fit a F-S9 Medium Shield Extender with only small sacrifices (meaning, +1 for the Eris and Heretic, period).
If you're genuinely concerned about max speed stacked characters/ships, reduce the Rapid Deployment Link bonus to 2% or 1.5% base. Lower LG snakes to 25% for the full set, and FG snakes to 38%.
Or just give up and admit you have a hard on for risk-free large camps, because they'll be the last ones aloud to mass tackle with deployable bubbles (now without the risk of anyone doing it back at them in a dangerous fashion \o/).
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Ernest Graefenberg
Minmatar
Cutting Edge Incorporated
RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2007.11.24 07:28:00 -
[2]
Replying to my own topic because that's classy.
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BaneMaker
Sizzle Sizzle
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Posted - 2007.11.24 08:14:00 -
[3]
Could not agree more. Nerfing all the dictors is just plain stupid. Buff the Heretic and the Eris instead.
It is hard enough not getting killed in those bullet magnets as it is.
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Tareen Kashaar
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2007.11.24 08:34:00 -
[4]
Personally, I'm indifferent to these changes. I would however like to hear why bubble aggression is supposed to be a bad thing?
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WTS: Forum Signatures, price negotiable. Evemail me!
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Ernest Graefenberg
Minmatar
Cutting Edge Incorporated
RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2007.11.24 09:50:00 -
[5]
 Originally by: Tareen Kashaar
Personally, I'm indifferent to these changes. I would however like to hear why bubble aggression is supposed to be a bad thing?
Because it's one of the main counters to people who don't want a fight? Both in dealing with stabs, cloaks, reapproaching and other methods of evasion - and when dealing with large gangs that will start turning tail and aiming only at tacklers as soon as you get within a few jumps.
Right now, the sanest way to catch an average roam involves dictoring them and then jumping out. It's too easy and commonplace to have a shedload of Huginns/Rapiers, and even if you'd buy cheap dictors instead (which with this change will go about 3k \o/) you only get to bubble once, which is negated a few seconds later - stopping you from catching people just jumping out or coming back in after 30s to rebubble stragglers.
Dictor bubbles don't directly hurt anybody, or even hinder movement - they only inhibit warp, while letting people still MWD. It's not really too much to ask for that a ship exists that lets PvP be somewhat non-consensual even with the aggression mechanic the way it is right now :/
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Tareen Kashaar
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
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Posted - 2007.11.24 10:10:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Ernest Graefenberg
Originally by: Tareen Kashaar
Personally, I'm indifferent to these changes. I would however like to hear why bubble aggression is supposed to be a bad thing?
Because it's one of the main counters to people who don't want a fight? Both in dealing with stabs, cloaks, reapproaching and other methods of evasion - and when dealing with large gangs that will start turning tail and aiming only at tacklers as soon as you get within a few jumps.
Right now, the sanest way to catch an average roam involves dictoring them and then jumping out. It's too easy and commonplace to have a shedload of Huginns/Rapiers, and even if you'd buy cheap dictors instead (which with this change will go about 3k \o/) you only get to bubble once, which is negated a few seconds later - stopping you from catching people just jumping out or coming back in after 30s to rebubble stragglers.
Dictor bubbles don't directly hurt anybody, or even hinder movement - they only inhibit warp, while letting people still MWD. It's not really too much to ask for that a ship exists that lets PvP be somewhat non-consensual even with the aggression mechanic the way it is right now :/
Ah, gotcha. However, it'll also aggro-flag those inside the bubble, won't it?
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WTS: Forum Signatures, price negotiable. Evemail me!
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Ernest Graefenberg
Minmatar
Cutting Edge Incorporated
RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2007.11.24 11:28:00 -
[7]
No. Besides the logout mechanic changes inside bubbles from a few patches ago, nothing changes for the target. Just if the target tries to warp while inside the bubble, or the bubble interrupts somebodies warp, the dictor gets aggressed and cannot jump.
If it aggroed them, I'd care a bit less - it would just be a much more awkward way of doing things, but fun in it's own right. Like this, it turns the most dangerous tacklers in the game into magical pretty ponies that you just want to hug :(
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fire 59
Destructive Influence
Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2007.11.24 16:31:00 -
[8]
I think it's good as most of them are going silly speeds. It's not difficult to warp to an enemy wreck to get into there fleet to bubble. With all the nano cloaking and whatnot going on, i think this new generation is getting death shy.
Death is natural in eve and trying to keep near immunity with stupid nano ships all the time is dull.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bdd74kLxgGo |
Tadehiro
Kudzu Collective
Knights Of the Southerncross
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Posted - 2007.11.24 17:03:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Ernest Graefenberg
Edited by: Ernest Graefenberg on 24/11/2007 07:28:47
Changes that suck:
- Aggression for Warp Disrupt probes. Anyone trying to warp out of a warp disrupt probe (including yourself, lulz) now causes aggression.
...okay, that's just silly. :s
My Eris with a run of the mill t2 fit with no implants or rigs goes around 4.9km/s which is ALREADY slower then the majority of most interceptors. You start seeing those inasne 10km/s dictors because of:
1) The base speed of a saber is a touch too high IMO but that's just 1 of the 4 interdictors.
2) The bonus for polycarbon rigs is far too high, allowing for incredably high speeds (a polycarboned ishtar goes about as fast as my run of the mill Eris).
3) Snake sets, although expensive, are still affordable by individuals and give almost a 60% increase to speed with a full set. This in itself is the main cause of uber high speeds, and if this patch goes through, I'll probably have to buy myself a snake set in order to keep the Eris surviveable enough to be viable.
Most likely you'll find that to be the prevalent attitude amongst dictor pilots; 3 billion is not THAT hard to grind for the hardcore player. For the rest if us, if I take two extra shift at work I can buy about ($300/ $15 / 30 day card = 20 cards. 20 cards * 170 mil each = 3.4 billion isk). Say what you will about buying isk in this fashion: it's legal and it's about the same conversion rate as illegal buying and if CCP says it's cool, damn as hell I'm taknig advantage of it (more money then time).
If you want to make dictors balanced nerf polycarbon rigs instead (drop them to be inline with the t2 counter part) and snake sets (drop thier bonuses to speed). That will balance out ALL nano ships anyways, seeing as I don't know of a single nano ship fit that doesn't use them (and we control teneferis... 2 or three days of ratting and salvaging and I have enough salvage to build two of these rigs).
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Gordon Red
SteelVipers
YouWhat
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Posted - 2007.11.25 03:51:00 -
[10]
The speed of the Sabre is not the problem, but it is the perfect interdictor with no disadvantages.
+ great speed
+ full slots of biggest available weapons (+damage bonus)
+ tank (med T2 shield extender)
+ webber&scrambler
7x 200mm autocannon T2
1x interdiction sphere launcher
1x 1MN MWD T2
1x webber
1x fleeting warp scrambler (or T2 if you want)
1x medium shield extender T2 => 2000 shield
1x overdrive T2
1x nanofiber T2
5km/s
My Heretic is with 2x Overdive T2 + 1x Nanofiber T2 slightly faster, but has NO tank (not even structure tank as it was able in the past) and only 5 missile launcher.
The 6th launcher takes too much CPU / 6x Rockets would do, but if I want to go close, I need a tank) => less speed or no webber (or scrambler), but no webber + rockets = no damage on frigs or no scrambler = frig warps off (because your prey is out of the bubble, if you finally reaches it)
Eris has the same problem.
The Flycatcher has damage+tank (with rockets only / missiles = no tank PG wise)+web+scram (and one mostly useless med slot = sensor booster, because not much CPU is left or you have to drop one weapon).
The Flycatchers main problem is the one low slot and bad base speed. => dictor with or without tank is dead without speed.
btw. the Flycatcher took the weakest speed nerv.
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Ernest Graefenberg
Minmatar
Cutting Edge Incorporated
RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2007.11.25 07:11:00 -
[11]
Edited by: Ernest Graefenberg on 25/11/2007 07:12:44
Originally by: fire 59
Death is natural in eve and trying to keep near immunity with stupid nano ships all the time is dull.
Yes, less tackling will lead to more people dying. This makes sense.
Except not really. In large group engagements, slice and dice it any way you like - aggressive support dies most of anyone out there. Giving them aggression and making them move at pedestrian speeds only means less valuable/interesting things die, especially those already good at shaking support like HACs/CS - but also snoozefest MS/Titans.
We'll be burning through more dictors sure, but in the long run that doesn't compare to all the people that don't die because of how easy deaggressing becomes and how hard it is to get tackled by a 3km/s dictor. Keep in mind, you can literally warp out after MWDing out of a dictorbubble and jump at the destination gate while the pursuing Sabre can't follow you with the way things are right now on SiSi. Why bother engaging light roams at all anymore? They get away by default pretty much :/
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Chavu
Ganja Labs
Pure.
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Posted - 2007.11.25 09:00:00 -
[12]
Come on, you have never once thought it was lame when a dictor warped in, bubbled your gang on the gate and jumped out scot free?
I am very opposed to any change that makes it harder to get engagements, and keeping a dictor alive is hard enough as it is. Don't give them slots for a medium shield extender, just give them the shield/armor hp and some more resists maybe and their speed back and call it a day. More bubble types (bigger bubbles!) would be awesome but I ain't holding my breath.
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Kai Lae
Gallente
Shiva
Morsus Mihi
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Posted - 2007.11.25 10:20:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Chavu
Come on, you have never once thought it was lame when a dictor warped in, bubbled your gang on the gate and jumped out scot free?
Yes, but what does reducing their speed have to do with this? Polycarbons are a big part of the problem here, where everyone fits polys and nothing else. This is a good sign that either:
#1 the module is overpowered
Or
#2 The other modules in it's class are underpowered. I'm thinking polys are overpowered in this case.
It seems what's happened here is that someone at CCP got tired of being jumped by 8km/sec sabres and decided to nerf them. Problem is, the other 3 didn't need a nerf. In fact the eris needs a boost, and as it stands now people will still only use sabres because the changes make the sabre advantages more important.
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Knocturnal
omen.
Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2007.11.25 11:00:00 -
[14]
Yeah but it's still ok for a 20m ship to warp at gate drop bubble and then mwd out and hold down from a 2man gang to 100mans fleets. Yeah that's ok:)
F*ck Derek we got Xlop. |
Phrixus Zephyr
D00M.
Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2007.11.25 11:05:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Chavu
Come on, you have never once thought it was lame when a dictor warped in, bubbled your gang on the gate and jumped out scot free?
It's not lame at all. It's one of the only tactics you can use to either A) slow down a gang or B) force them to manouvre and/or fight.
This change just makes most of them one shot weapons and assumes everyone fits polys to their 'dictors. It also doesnt change its intended target, rigged and implanted 'dictors. They'll still be almost untouchable but your average joe in a dictor will just die more.
The ship and the bubble arn't a problem. Riggs and implants are the problem. Implants have been a problem with ships going way too fast for a long time now.
Originally by: consider telos
..then we had a fight and he was so dead and
then I like became champion of eve and then
ccp gave me a medal and a t-shirt and asked
me to go out with him on a date to mcD' |
Cadiz
Caldari
No Quarter.
Vae Victis.
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Posted - 2007.11.25 11:06:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Knocturnal
Yeah but it's still ok for a 20m ship to warp at gate drop bubble and then mwd out and hold down from a 2man gang to 100mans fleets. Yeah that's ok:)
What nano-dictor costs 20mil?
------
Director, No Quarter
"There is no problem that cannot be solved by the judicious application of violence." |
fire 59
Destructive Influence
Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2007.11.25 11:36:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Ernest Graefenberg
Edited by: Ernest Graefenberg on 25/11/2007 07:12:44
Originally by: fire 59
Death is natural in eve and trying to keep near immunity with stupid nano ships all the time is dull.
Yes, less tackling will lead to more people dying. This makes sense.
Except not really. In large group engagements, slice and dice it any way you like - aggressive support dies most of anyone out there. Giving them aggression and making them move at pedestrian speeds only means less valuable/interesting things die, especially those already good at shaking support like HACs/CS - but also snoozefest MS/Titans.
We'll be burning through more dictors sure, but in the long run that doesn't compare to all the people that don't die because of how easy deaggressing becomes and how hard it is to get tackled by a 3km/s dictor. Keep in mind, you can literally warp out after MWDing out of a dictorbubble and jump at the destination gate while the pursuing Sabre can't follow you with the way things are right now on SiSi. Why bother engaging light roams at all anymore? They get away by default pretty much :/
If you have a mixed gang that shouldn't be a problem. Interceptors excel for high speed tackling, dictors can do the bubble thing and get there groove out of there and heavy hitters lay the smack down.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bdd74kLxgGo |
Lord DeFault
Minmatar
Satanic Red
Veritas Immortalis
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Posted - 2007.11.25 11:50:00 -
[18]
Lower there sig....
They are harmless... unless your a hauler pilot. Why nerf them?
They can be killed by BSĘs with limited fuss....
And boaster normal destroyers some how.
If you fly one of them in 0.0 prepare to be laughed at and popped.
For the Republic
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Minmatar Citizen 4521577
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Posted - 2007.11.25 15:03:00 -
[19]
I welcome this change. It was extremely cheesy that the dictors could just jump away from trouble. Now you will actually have to think twice about dropping a bubble making it a more important decision.
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Karina Bellac
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Posted - 2007.11.25 15:29:00 -
[20]
Originally by: fire 59
I think it's good as most of them are going silly speeds. It's not difficult to warp to an enemy wreck to get into there fleet to bubble. With all the nano cloaking and whatnot going on, i think this new generation is getting death shy.
Death is natural in eve and trying to keep near immunity with stupid nano ships all the time is dull.
Well done. This thread is about interdictors. Your rant is about nano ships. A large proportion of those who have posted in this forum in the threads on this topic are pretty much agreed that the problem is not the base speed of the interdictors, but the speeds a pilot can achieve with rigs and implants.
In Rev3, I largely expect the choice interdictor will be the Eris, with one bubble launcher and no other fittings whatsoever. Anything more than that won't help survivability, so you might as well go cheap and be done with it. |
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Susitna
Caldari
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Posted - 2007.11.25 18:01:00 -
[21]
I will probably stop flying interdictors if these go live. The speed nerf plus the aggro change make dropping a bubble on a gate pretty much suicide. They might as well make the ship explode when you drop the bubble.
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fire 59
Destructive Influence
Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2007.11.25 18:46:00 -
[22]
Edited by: fire 59 on 25/11/2007 18:48:03
Originally by: Karina Bellac
Originally by: fire 59
I think it's good as most of them are going silly speeds. It's not difficult to warp to an enemy wreck to get into there fleet to bubble. With all the nano cloaking and whatnot going on, i think this new generation is getting death shy.
Death is natural in eve and trying to keep near immunity with stupid nano ships all the time is dull.
Well done. This thread is about interdictors. Your rant is about nano ships. A large proportion of those who have posted in this forum in the threads on this topic are pretty much agreed that the problem is not the base speed of the interdictors, but the speeds a pilot can achieve with rigs and implants.
In Rev3, I largely expect the choice interdictor will be the Eris, with one bubble launcher and no other fittings whatsoever. Anything more than that won't help survivability, so you might as well go cheap and be done with it.
What an strange reply. Is that a half hearted flame or a troll, i can't decide. Every ship has it's role and the flying coffin is designed to drop bubbles and die alot. Not run around with near immunity at 6-12kms ( depending on fit) . And i think it speaks volumes that nearly every dictor pilot is flying a silly speed sabre. The base speed is high and with everything else it gets utterly ridiculous.
I'm not saying i think the nano fad isn't stupid because it is, implants, rigs, gang bonuses and the high base speed made for near invincible silly speeds only catchable by....... ships with near invincible silly speed.
They will start to explode again and it will be glorious 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bdd74kLxgGo |
Liang Nuren
The Avalon Foundation
Knights Of Syndicate
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Posted - 2007.11.25 19:46:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Susitna
I will probably stop flying interdictors if these go live. The speed nerf plus the aggro change make dropping a bubble on a gate pretty much suicide. They might as well make the ship explode when you drop the bubble.
Yeah, I'm already re-spec'ing away from interdictors. No need to fly something that'll cost me 30-60M every time I board the ship.
A Stabber + a Med bubble will do the same job (albeit a tiny bit slower) for far cheaper (and more effectively after the nerf).
Liang
--
Retired forum *****. Plz tell me to STFU.
Yarr? |
Leon 026
Caldari
Veto.
Veto Corp
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Posted - 2007.11.25 20:07:00 -
[24]
If it shows volume that dictors are overpowered because every dictor pilot is flying a "silly speed Sabre", then surely the only dictor that needs tweaking is the Sabre, and not the other weaker 3 dictors?
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Leon 026
Once I was fallen, now I have wings
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Ernest Graefenberg
Minmatar
Cutting Edge Incorporated
RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2007.11.26 18:09:00 -
[25]
Originally by: fire 59
If you have a mixed gang that shouldn't be a problem. Interceptors excel for high speed tackling, dictors can do the bubble thing and get there groove out of there and heavy hitters lay the smack down.
No not really, the 'dictor as the standard for tackling and the Interceptor as the faster/sturdier specialist as currently on TQ works fine. The interceptor as the standard for tackling is almost asking for consent to engage.
Counters to regular tackling are too easy and commonplace, from Neuts, ECM, anyone fast with a web, Huginns, Rapiers, Vagabonds, Muninns, Eagles, Absolutions, Zealots, reapproaching down to group hugs you have to pretty much try to be unable to shake a few aggressed Interceptors.
Interceptor role was too small on TQ due to cap useage issues and the gimpyness of a few of them. That was already addressed by their new role bonuses. Interdictors on the other hand more or less need to be the baseline for 0.0 operations to maintain playability in group combat - this isn't a few years ago, where anti-support was worse except for EW and fights much, much faster and decisive.
With the current changes, 'dictors become bad enough that they're more or less for dedicated alts in fleets and sparsely brought on roams out of dire necessity. Making both an entire shipclass uninteresting and combat in general. Because keep in mind, this doesn't just burn reapproaching and bubbling - making 'dictors a pain to bring also hits the fun things like messing with peoples warpins or splitting their blobs up with some well-placed bubbles.
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Phrixus Zephyr
D00M.
Triumvirate.
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Posted - 2007.11.26 19:37:00 -
[26]
Edited by: Phrixus Zephyr on 26/11/2007 19:41:54
Originally by: fire 59
Edited by: fire 59 on 25/11/2007 18:48:03
Originally by: Karina Bellac
Originally by: fire 59
I think it's good as most of them are going silly speeds. It's not difficult to warp to an enemy wreck to get into there fleet to bubble. With all the nano cloaking and whatnot going on, i think this new generation is getting death shy.
Death is natural in eve and trying to keep near immunity with stupid nano ships all the time is dull.
Well done. This thread is about interdictors. Your rant is about nano ships. A large proportion of those who have posted in this forum in the threads on this topic are pretty much agreed that the problem is not the base speed of the interdictors, but the speeds a pilot can achieve with rigs and implants.
In Rev3, I largely expect the choice interdictor will be the Eris, with one bubble launcher and no other fittings whatsoever. Anything more than that won't help survivability, so you might as well go cheap and be done with it.
What an strange reply. Is that a half hearted flame or a troll, i can't decide. Every ship has it's role and the flying coffin is designed to drop bubbles and die alot. Not run around with near immunity at 6-12kms ( depending on fit) . And i think it speaks volumes that nearly every dictor pilot is flying a silly speed sabre. The base speed is high and with everything else it gets utterly ridiculous.
I'm not saying i think the nano fad isn't stupid because it is, implants, rigs, gang bonuses and the high base speed made for near invincible silly speeds only catchable by....... ships with near invincible silly speed.
They will start to explode again and it will be glorious
The problem is that 12k/s 'dictors will still be untouchable because they'll still be flown by people who are fitting polys and implants. This change just screws dictors doing 3-5k/s and leaves everything else more or less the same.
The thing with the bubble aggroing is just bizzare. It's a sound tactical tool to force large gangs to keep moving, to split gangs up, buy time. I've played cat and mouse 'dictor/gang games against DICE in TRI gangs and it makes it interesting. Make the bubbles aggro and all you end up with is dead dictors and two gangs just trying to out align each other. I really don't understand where this change is coming from. Nobody said this was 'broken until CCP decide to change it, its just making PVP more bland.
Originally by: consider telos
..then we had a fight and he was so dead and
then I like became champion of eve and then
ccp gave me a medal and a t-shirt and asked
me to go out with him on a date to mcD' |
Gordon Red
SteelVipers
YouWhat
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Posted - 2007.11.27 01:50:00 -
[27]
Throwing a bubble don't makes agression.
Tested on the test server (alone), dropped a bubble and was still able to jump.
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xHomicide
Cutting Edge Incorporated
RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2007.11.27 15:42:00 -
[28]
Dictors actually create decent gameplay out of otherwise stale fleet combat.
Stop ******* with the actually entertaining aspects of the game and fix the boring ass aspects. No, that doesn't mean make everything that is actually tactical, skillful, and entertaining worthless.
You should be encouraging players to use these ships, not discouraging them. There is absolutely nothing wrong with every gang relying on a few dictors to act as their group tacklers. They are a great aspect of EVE.
---
Razor CEI
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Gaogan
Gallente
Solar Storm
Sev3rance
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Posted - 2007.11.27 16:30:00 -
[29]
Originally by: fire 59
What an strange reply. Is that a half hearted flame or a troll, i can't decide. Every ship has it's role and the flying coffin is designed to drop bubbles and die alot. Not run around with near immunity at 6-12kms ( depending on fit) . And i think it speaks volumes that nearly every dictor pilot is flying a silly speed sabre. The base speed is high and with everything else it gets utterly ridiculous.
Again, the only one doing 6+ km/s is a rigged and implanted sabre. Nerf rigs, nerf implants. The Eris with t2 speed mods but no implants or rigs is still outrun by any cepter, but it's at least quick enough to have a chance at getting away. Now it's slower than a T1 frig. Dieing a lot != 100% chance of exploding on launching a bubbble.
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Tiny Carlos
Destructive Influence
Band of Brothers
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Posted - 2007.11.27 16:43:00 -
[30]
A comination of the slower speed and aggro on a bubble drop will certainly stop me flying dictors, unless an FC wants to supply me with one to die in.
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