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Stop Nerfing Group Tackling - Leave Dictors alone

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Ernest Graefenberg Minmatar Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2007.11.28 20:04:00 - [31] Originally by: Gordon Red Throwing a bubble don't makes agression. Tested on the test server (alone), dropped a bubble and was still able to jump. From the OP: - Aggression for Warp Disrupt probes. Anyone trying to warp out of a warp disrupt probe (including yourself, lulz) now causes aggression. Was it just too much effort to try warping out of your own bubble before jumping ?
G Mooo Dark Knights of Deneb Against ALL Authorities	Posted - 2007.11.29 01:32:00 - [32] Don't nerf my dictors! the things are fun to fly (if a tad pricy to rig a sabre). I've lost a few, but man, i've had fun. If they are nerfed they are pointless. Why spend 100mil on a ship that can't go over 5k (most ceptors, which are the only things you can kill quickly, can outrun you at that point).
Andreya Murder-Death-Kill	Posted - 2007.11.29 04:46:00 - [33] stop changing a class of sihp that was never broken in the first place!!!! just give the Eris some love (6th or maybe 7th turret) _________________________________________________________ Only once you've lost everything, are you free to do anything.
Ernest Graefenberg Minmatar Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2007.11.29 11:58:00 - [34] Edited by: Ernest Graefenberg on 29/11/2007 11:58:16 Any odds of a devresponse on this before wednesday? Like what in the world the reasoning behind this is?
Awox Advanced Logistics	Posted - 2007.11.29 12:20:00 - [35] Originally by: Ernest Graefenberg Edited by: Ernest Graefenberg on 29/11/2007 11:58:16 Any odds of a devresponse on this before wednesday? Like what in the world the reasoning behind this is? CCP making EVE more like WoW, listening to the likes of Zulupark etc. -- ADVL CEO. LootTrack Sales KB
Neleva	Posted - 2007.11.29 12:44:00 - [36] Hey all! The problem i see with slowing down the dictors is the following: When do we use dictors? We use them in fleetfights as a major tactical aspect. We use them to get tiny ships trying to escape. What else can we do with dictors? Well as they are only capable to kill FrigClass ships, we wont do anything else... We cant eaven use them for ratting oO. So what do we got? We have a ship, not that hard to hit, damn not much hp ^^, fair firepower (vs friggs...). This ship has only one opportunity to go solo: Stay on a gate, drop a bubble, hope its a frigg, and otherwise GET OUT THERE ASAP! Who wants to fly such a ship? Well usually i do and i cant understand why so less people agree here... I just love being an important tactical part in the fleet, i dont care so much bout getting the killmail^^ What happens with a slow dictor? It gets killed because we dictors are a loved primary if we dont get out ASAP! Well letz compare this nice T2 ship to others: Cloakers are prity useful for what they should do. some just stay cloaked, others are a damn nice weapon in the hands of a skilled warrior, if you got the skill, you got a way to survive. The other t2 friggs are either fast einough to runn from potentual enemies or eg AF can easyly kill faster ships (thx nerfing nanoBS^^). HACs do all have their place, eg we got vagga (n.c.) or an Ishtar whos more htan capable of DpS and tanking and so on. Well i guess i dont have to say anything bout CS. Now sup with the dictor? Allright he gets killed by cruiser class ships and bigger. Those can carry pritty ranged gunns wich can pritty good hit a dictor orbiting them with expanding radius (to get aways safly) at 5km/s. but at 8km/s they dont. Who now wants to fly a dictor with no change to survive a battle where hostile cruisers or biggger are involved? Well i will, as long as i have the money to get new ones, but i bet imll be prity alone...
Jallem Sims Minmatar Exploring Blind	Posted - 2007.11.29 13:20:00 - [37] its just wrong that no one is giving the user base any reasons....
Csatti FREE GATES The Sphere Confederation	Posted - 2007.11.29 22:00:00 - [38] Edited by: Csatti on 29/11/2007 22:00:16 Here is your reason from another thread. Originally by: CCP Zulupark Being able to bubble up a 20km radius with a very very small ship should have some drawbacks don't you think? It shouldn't be a no-brainer to do in my opinion.
Pax Uranus Sofa.Kingdom	Posted - 2007.11.29 22:05:00 - [39] I guess Zulupark believes that the drawback to being able to drop a bubble is that you more than likely should just die on the spot. Maybe change the bubble launcher so that as soon as you activate it, it starts your self-destruct timer? Then again, you'll melt before the timer runs out.
Karina Bellac	Posted - 2007.11.29 22:59:00 - [40] Originally by: Csatti Edited by: Csatti on 29/11/2007 22:00:16 Here is your reason from another thread. Originally by: CCP Zulupark Being able to bubble up a 20km radius with a very very small ship should have some drawbacks don't you think? It shouldn't be a no-brainer to do in my opinion. TQ Interdictors already have drawbacks. No T2 resists, near-cruiser sig radius with near-frigate durability, and a complete lack of slots/grid/cap to fit a tank. TQ Interdictors are already slower than TQ Interceptors. But then, no matter how many times anything along these lines is posted, I still imagine Zulupark sitting at his PC with his eyes closed, his fingers in his ears, chanting "la la la I can't hear you la la la". Because every single rational post punches lorry-sized holes through Zulu's reasoning.

Laechyd Eldgorn Caldari Karjala Inc. Onnenpyora	Posted - 2007.12.01 10:48:00 - [41] Originally by: Pax Uranus I guess Zulupark believes that the drawback to being able to drop a bubble is that you more than likely should just die on the spot. Maybe change the bubble launcher so that as soon as you activate it, it starts your self-destruct timer? Then again, you'll melt before the timer runs out. Can we have this feature.
Murkelost Swedish Aerospace Inc Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2007.12.01 11:02:00 - [42] I would propose a boost for the gallente, amarr and caldari dictors to be more equal to the sabre. Nerfing the top speed is good since interceptors role is pretty useless since they can't simply tackle dictors easily with webbing, unless you've got 2billion implants and Faction setup on your inty, and not alot have that, mostly because pvp would be darn expensive and it's not worthwhile. Esspecially I would like the sabre even more nerfed in speed than the other dictors so there would be more of variety on the field of those different racial ships. And the way sabres are now they can pretty much outrun anything easily which is kinda unbalanced. Does it take a blob to kill a dictor? Im just stating this since CCP's latest ideas of changes was to make PVP more of a choice, if you engage you will be forced to fight etc, but it hasn't work that way to much, all pvp I've seen lately is running about in ridicoulous speed, which to me isn't much of pvp but more of cat and mouse play. That of course have it's fun part but it's not what should be the number one solution to success only. And btw, Hi Ernest
Lunch Money Teylas Inc. Rare Faction	Posted - 2007.12.01 11:07:00 - [43] Originally by: Tareen Kashaar Personally, I'm indifferent to these changes. I would however like to hear why bubble aggression is supposed to be a bad thing? I like that Idea with aggro, no more dictor will jump throu gate after leaving bubble. its gr8 idea but I dont like idea with reducing speed.
Karina Bellac	Posted - 2007.12.01 13:03:00 - [44] Originally by: Murkelost I would propose a boost for the gallente, amarr and caldari dictors to be more equal to the sabre. Nerfing the top speed is good since interceptors role is pretty useless since they can't simply tackle dictors easily with webbing, unless you've got 2billion implants and Faction setup on your inty, and not alot have that, mostly because pvp would be darn expensive and it's not worthwhile. Esspecially I would like the sabre even more nerfed in speed than the other dictors so there would be more of variety on the field of those different racial ships. And the way sabres are now they can pretty much outrun anything easily which is kinda unbalanced. Does it take a blob to kill a dictor? Im just stating this since CCP's latest ideas of changes was to make PVP more of a choice, if you engage you will be forced to fight etc, but it hasn't work that way to much, all pvp I've seen lately is running about in ridicoulous speed, which to me isn't much of pvp but more of cat and mouse play. That of course have it's fun part but it's not what should be the number one solution to success only. And btw, Hi Ernest This post is almost spot on. It just missed out the word "Polycarboned" in front of the word "Sabre".
Ernest Graefenberg Minmatar Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2007.12.01 13:24:00 - [45] Originally by: Murkelost Nerfing the top speed is good since interceptors role is pretty useless since they can't simply tackle dictors easily with webbing, unless you've got 2billion implants and Faction setup on your inty, and not alot have that, mostly because pvp would be darn expensive and it's not worthwhile. Woop woop, the wonderful tall tales about speeds again. An unpolyed Sabre goes 5.2km/s. An unpolyed Crow goes 7.2km/s. That's even still on par with a polycarbon Sabre at 7.05km/s. Interceptors are practically 40% faster than Interdictors on current TQ balance. The only reason people have real trouble is horribad teamwork, terrible fittings and gang composition. Sabres outrun complete morons easily, but besides that not much really. If sticking one unnamed overdrive, 2 CPRs and no basic hardwirings on an Interceptor constitutes the bar for what no other ships should exceed, then we should probably just slash the speeds of every non-interceptor in the game already so the special class of '07 can keep up. We can't cater balance solely to the most incompetent, especially when the price is making gang vs gang warfare even lamer and more consensual (since you don't really tackle without a support-blob anymore, joy). It's like if we gave the Arazu 3 million armor HP to compensate for how horrible Wraithstorm is. Just doesn't make any sense and breaks perfectly good parts of the game. Quote: all pvp I've seen lately is running about in ridicoulous speed, which to me isn't much of pvp but more of cat and mouse play. What do Sabres have to do with that? Yeah, you can't catch tacklers. That's pretty much the entire point of their existence. By that reasoning we might as well slow down Interceptors, because god knows I can't catch somebody in an Interceptor that doesn't have their head 12 feet up their ass.
Ernest Graefenberg Minmatar Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2007.12.03 05:29:00 - [46] If you ignore this, it'll certainly go away. Just like the IStab thread did with the last major update, right ?
Spike Spiegle Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2007.12.03 07:53:00 - [47] Wow almost missed this nerf... Take it ccp have desided that we should all go back to the disposable dictor? This is the worst idea I have ever seen, since they cut the time a bubble lasts it means the dictor has to survive to have any kind of chance to hold a fleet down long enough to kill anything. The devs have stated they added dictors to break up blob warfare, which worked to an extent, now you have no chance other than to turn up with a bigger blob to have anychance of a good outcome. And Inties are not the solution cause all it takes is 1 or 2 minmitar recons to kill as many as you throw at the enemy Leave the ships that work ccp you are supposed to make the game enjoyable/better... not ruin it!
Evenfall Phoenix The Arrow Project Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2007.12.03 08:41:00 - [48] This is a very very bad idea. Along the lines of worst CCP ideas ever. As it has been stated, fix the damn poly rig and look at snake implants. That is the root of the problem. Still, CCP is being consistent when it comes to treating symptoms instead of the virus. I guess we shouldn't expect anything less.
Orb Lati Minmatar Cold-Fury Southern Cross Alliance	Posted - 2007.12.03 10:24:00 - [49] Was trying to think up a well constructed response to the op but all i can think of is: BUBBLE AGGRO GOOD! "We worship Strength because it is through strength that all other values are made possible"
Horribad	Posted - 2007.12.03 10:55:00 - [50] This is Horribad.

fire 59 Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.12.03 11:39:00 - [51] Edited by: fire 59 on 03/12/2007 11:39:40 Hell, i think they should go a step further and have dictors blow up once dropping a bubble but increase the bubble range massively. Make them literally suicide ships and increase the time the bubble stays in the air. Edit - I fly dictors but not ******** nano setups and manage to survive, go figure http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bdd74kLxgGo
Redback911 Malevolent Intentions	Posted - 2007.12.03 11:51:00 - [52] What's wrong with ship loss? That bubble might net you 10-20 kills.... Why do people whine about nerfs to ship fits that only have 1 or 2 semi-effective counters in the whole game? You fly these setups and expect not to get nerfed? LOL
BugxEarl Amarr Division 9 Golden Leaves Izanagi Alliance	Posted - 2007.12.03 12:35:00 - [53] First of all, Sabre going 10km/s with standard fit is a god damned MYTH. With standard t2 fit with cheaper hardwirings, majority of the dictors barely scratch 6km/s as is. Anyone spending 2bil+ in implants deserve 10km/s and if that's imbalanced, the implants should be fixed and not the ship. I'll just run down the figures here. Sabre Level 5 skill, 2 poly 2 ODII MWDII 7km/s Heretic Level 5 skill, 2 poly 2 ODII MWDII 6km/s Flycatcher Level 5 Skill, 2 poly 1 ODII MWDII 5km/s Eris Level 5 Skill, 2 Poly 3ODII MWDII 6.7km/s This is too fast how? 5% speed reduction on the sabre MAYBE understandable. 2 polycarbs already make these fragile ships freakishly expensive. If people intend to break the 8km/s precision light barrier they must invest atleast 60m in hardwiring making it even more ridiculously so. Trying to break 10km/s result in a ship that costs 240m for fitting (Gistii MWD, 2x poly), 60m in hardwiring and 1bil in low-grade snake. A 1.3bil isk investment in a ship. Majority of the dictor pilots do not spend such an inefficient investment on a dictor. Game should be balanced on the medium and not on the so called 'pimp fit'. Stop listening to damn noobs who just got owned by pimp-fitted pi-wats and think dictors are too powerful.
fire 59 Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.12.03 13:36:00 - [54] Cost is no justification for near immunity, otherwise the titan would be unstoppable. They are specialised ships, to drop bubbles and die. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bdd74kLxgGo
MellaRinn Gallente Veto. Veto Corp	Posted - 2007.12.03 14:03:00 - [55] Originally by: fire 59 Cost is no justification for near immunity, otherwise the titan would be unstoppable. They are specialised ships, to drop bubbles and die. wrong. A ship worth 1 billion isk including the head of the pilot SHOULD beat an equivalent ship fitted and implanted for 20mil, if you have a problem with that, petition god and mother nature. they are specialised ships to tackle large groups of opponents for an elongated period of time. dictors are not overpowered, in a similar way information warfare links aren't. ✖Veto Corp. Training Officer✖ Click the sig 4 my vids
BugxEarl Amarr Division 9 Golden Leaves Izanagi Alliance	Posted - 2007.12.03 17:30:00 - [56] I don't understand where you fail to read my argument. What I said was, if the speed of pimp fitted dictors are indeed a problem, fix the fit and not the ship. Nanofagging dictors are nearly everyone. Nanofagging vagas are nearly immune to everyone and their mother. Nanofagging etc... There are counters, yes, but those counters do not work in every given situation which all of the nano-fagging ships are nearly all equally immune to. See the pattern here? Fixing a certain ship and making them gimped with regular fits do not solve the problem. Universal solution is fixing the source and not the end.
hydraSlav Synergy Evolved Daisho Syndicate	Posted - 2007.12.03 18:16:00 - [57] Wow... how come i am not surprised it's Ernest that's making this thread? Maybe for once you will have to commit to a fight, instead of running away and cloaking/logging at first sign of an equal fight. I fly a polycarbed HAC myself, so i am very familiar with all the great advantages it brings, being able to decide when to fight and when to pull away. But the difference between a polycarbed HAC and a polycarbed dictor is that a single polycarbed HAC (whether it decides to fight or flee) does not effect more than a single hostile it may be tackling. While a dictor may interdict the whole fleet and then decide not to commit to a fight and flee. Thank you CCP for attempting to fix the issue of people not committing to fights. Now fix the logoffs and AFK cloakers and i will love you all long time. == Above comments are my personal views Oveur >Local shouldn't be a tactical tool, it's for chat
hydraSlav Synergy Evolved Daisho Syndicate	Posted - 2007.12.03 18:21:00 - [58] Originally by: MellaRinn Originally by: fire 59 Cost is no justification for near immunity, otherwise the titan would be unstoppable. They are specialised ships, to drop bubbles and die. wrong. A ship worth 1 billion isk including the head of the pilot SHOULD beat an equivalent ship fitted and implanted for 20mil, if you have a problem with that, petition god and mother nature. Wrong, a more expensive ship should give you an advantage, not a guaranteed win. If we are to follow your line of thought, the fights should proceed as follows in local: "Stop right there, how much did you pay for your setup" "50mill. You?" "80mill. I will win" "OK, here is a killmail, i am offlining my hardeners so we can finish this faster" Right... get real == Above comments are my personal views Oveur >Local shouldn't be a tactical tool, it's for chat
Tadehiro Kudzu Collective	Posted - 2007.12.04 02:42:00 - [59] Originally by: fire 59 Cost is no justification for near immunity, otherwise the titan would be unstoppable. They are specialised ships, to drop bubbles and die. The titans are a completely different kind of expensive beast. The titans could launch a strike from a safespot and easily have the potential to destroy entire fleets with a single push of a buton absolutely ZERO risk to the titan owning alliance. That's what made them so stupid powerful. The dictors are NOT an IWIN buttons. They can be solo gankers, and they can be decently fast. But they're not the IWIN button everyone seems to believe they are (I've flown and lost enough dictors to know this). Case in point: My lachesis has NO problem smacking down most dictors or at the minimum forcing them out of the fight. I've fought half a dozen sabers so far. None of them dared to get close to me either because my warrior II's would start chewing him to pieces the second he tried to orbit me, and if not the warrior then my heavy missiles. I've only killed two or three but forcing them out of the fight is good enough for me; just kill off his buddies and suddenly that dictor pilot becomes super shy and runs away. I've also seen sabres kill battleships before solo; I've seen a scorpian killed off easily by a saber and for a while I wondered how this happened (I was in a vexor at the time, and I put him into structure before decided that trying to loot the wreck with drones and medium rails hammering on you was a BAD idea). Case in point: Expensive things should only provide an ADVANTAGE. And they do, and that's all they do; it's still pilot skill that's needed in order to successfully take down a ship.
Leon 026 Caldari Veto. Veto Corp	Posted - 2007.12.04 03:20:00 - [60] Originally by: fire 59 Cost is no justification for near immunity, otherwise the titan would be unstoppable. They are specialised ships, to drop bubbles and die. Thats some strange logic. If cost is no justification for immunity, then its pretty obvious thats its the polycarbon rigs that are the issue instead of the entire line of ships in that class. Dictor + t2 MWD goes nowhere near the same speed as a dictor + 2 MWD +polycarbs. Adding polycarbs makes the dictors enter a whole new ballgame for a mere 80mil. Good job on comparing a super-capital to a fleet tackler. They're certainly the same type of ships. But while we're at it : the titan was pretty much invincible until they changed it, that is how Shrike died afterall while the previous two titans were never killed in battle. Before the changes he was pretty invincible. ------- Leon 026 Once I was fallen, now I have wings



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