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Stop Nerfing Group Tackling - Leave Dictors alone

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MellaRinn Gallente Veto. Veto Corp	Posted - 2007.12.04 03:25:00 - [61] Edited by: MellaRinn on 04/12/2007 03:25:15 Originally by: hydraSlav Originally by: MellaRinn Originally by: fire 59 Cost is no justification for near immunity, otherwise the titan would be unstoppable. They are specialised ships, to drop bubbles and die. wrong. A ship worth 1 billion isk including the head of the pilot SHOULD beat an equivalent ship fitted and implanted for 20mil, if you have a problem with that, petition god and mother nature. Wrong, a more expensive ship should give you an advantage, not a guaranteed win. If we are to follow your line of thought, the fights should proceed as follows in local: "Stop right there, how much did you pay for your setup" "50mill. You?" "80mill. I will win" "OK, here is a killmail, i am offlining my hardeners so we can finish this faster" Right... get real I don't disagree with you, I used the word "should" in precisely this context. But you have to remember that we have another constraint on the argument - we are talking about ships that are fitted the same (by module type), with the same skills and the same person flying them. The performance of a gank-pest with t1 gyros IS smaller than the performance of a gank pest with officer gyros. And following this line of thought: why shouldn't a 2bil char/ship setup outrun/outdamage and/or outtank a 50mil setup ran by the same player? ✖Veto Corp. Training Officer✖ Click the sig 4 my vids
CoRrUpTiGe	Posted - 2007.12.04 05:03:00 - [62] TBH, the game would be much better without "AE tackling." Which is nothing more than an easy out for the lazy. Back in the day, when you know, you have had to actually get a point on everything you wanted to kill, people actually could move through 0,0 and explore and get small scale pvp. Now you need roaming blobs with caps on call to squash your way through large bubbled, dictor infested, gate camps.
CoRrUpTiGe	Posted - 2007.12.04 05:14:00 - [63] In other news, perhaps Ernest can tell us why it's even REMOTELY logical that a dictor be able to tank a DD from any damage type?????? How is that NOT grossly overpowered. I think, as I said, leaving them in the game at all is a poor decision.
xHomicide Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2007.12.04 10:16:00 - [64] Edited by: xHomicide on 04/12/2007 10:19:08 Originally by: CoRrUpTiGe TBH, the game would be much better without "AE tackling." Which is nothing more than an easy out for the lazy. Back in the day, when you know, you have had to actually get a point on everything you wanted to kill, people actually could move through 0,0 and explore and get small scale pvp. Now you need roaming blobs with caps on call to squash your way through large bubbled, dictor infested, gate camps. Agreed, group tackling is way too overpowered at countering small gangs and does almost nothing to blobs. This has been fixed by making them slower. No one likes blobs. Originally by: CoRrUpTiGe In other news, perhaps Ernest can tell us why it's even REMOTELY logical that a dictor be able to tank a DD from any damage type?????? How is that NOT grossly overpowered. I think, as I said, leaving them in the game at all is a poor decision. Agreed, dictors being able to tank a DD is overpowered. This has been solved, they will no longer be able to speed tank the DDs. Furthermore, everyone likes double Ds. --- Razor CEI
Horribad	Posted - 2007.12.05 23:58:00 - [65] Edited by: Horribad on 05/12/2007 23:59:33 Seems this somehow made it on to the the deployed trinity build. Still needs to be fixed.
Black Jumper Altera Odyssea Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2007.12.06 02:00:00 - [66] This is total bull****. I had seen the dictor nef speed on sisi ... great no more dictor. Now there's this Agression thing. This is a really bad move CCP. I know you want people to fly interceptors again but this ... Interceptors already got such a huge buff people will fly them again you know ? And then again you just introduced Ewar frigs that will make flying these things even more dangerous. Last time i was in a medium fight i was taken primary 3 times in 5 minutes ... I spent my whole time running away already. No more interdictors for me sir no thanks. Your change made the whole flying of a dictor pointless : - 90% chance of dying - can't tackle as you'll always have agression. Really bad move.
Self One	Posted - 2007.12.06 14:14:00 - [67] Please revert the dictors changes.
Arcinod	Posted - 2007.12.06 14:28:00 - [68] Signed. As an alternate solution to pimped out speed ships, just nerf polycarbs. A dictor is already almost always the first ship people shoot it. It's as weak as a frigate and most have no grid or slots to fit any sort of decent tank. They NEED speed to survive. With this change people will stop flying them because they'll die in every single engagement, since their one method of avoiding damage is gone. Even with a full gang protecting them (sans RSD and ECM insta-disabiling the enemies) dictors will get instapopped every single engagement because they can no longer speed tank anything. I know CCP wants to encourage training towards heavy dictors, but this is NOT the way to do it!
Jallem Sims Minmatar Exploring Blind	Posted - 2007.12.06 14:42:00 - [69] i not sure they are reading this.... eventhough the has been huge threads regarding the pointless nature of this nerf. While mass majority agree they need more understanding to see why CCP have done it. No one has replied yet from CCP to give its user base a brief or reasoning for this? My recent sabre death to a vaga only proves the point i have been trying to say to CCP since hearing about the nerf... and what response have any of us got so far, apart from any post questioning the motives being removed. Sorry.... but this shows the failers of the 'test' server if no one is listened too
Karina Bellac	Posted - 2007.12.06 16:01:00 - [70] Oh wow. You actually went ahead with this change. Even after so many threads and posts, some of which pointed out the real problem. I was actually thinking that your silence and lack of response about this change was because you were going to stealth-nerf polycarbons, so that they were not as good as the equivalent T2 low slot module. Instead of having the opinion that CCP knew best for the game, I'm now stuck thinking what an idiot I was for believing you lot had a clue.

Peanut Swsh Interstellar eXodus R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.12.06 16:24:00 - [71] Edited by: Peanut Swsh on 06/12/2007 16:26:00 Dictors didn't need this nerf. I can understand the change to give you agro when your bubble tackles someone, as this makes sense, it is a little unfair that you can tackle someone without getting aggression. but the speed nerf is just ridiculous. Zulupark, if you are reading this, you can see all the thread around of people who disagree with these changes. Only thing you have acheived with theses changes is make it even easier for people to run away and avoid combat. Everyone disagrees with you, you are wrong, so get over yourself, and change dictors back to the way they were. Hell, just looking at the nerf it just looks all too convenient, from the looks of it you just picked a nice round number and figured, yeah why not 25% speed nerf sounds fine lets nerf them all. Obviously you did no research into the changes, as you did nothing to balance the dictors vs other ships, and left the poor flycatcher doing an absolute pathetic 2.6k/s. I don't really mind the bubble agression nerf so much, cause I don't like camping anyway, it just gets you killed. But really it was unnecessary.
Orange Dark Centuri Inc. Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2007.12.06 17:14:00 - [72] Edited by: Orange on 06/12/2007 17:15:28 You know, having to deal with xHomocide every day when he was flying his 12k/s sabre was a royal pain the arse. It was amazing he could achieve such speeds with the game mechanics. The only real counter to his sabre (I only mention him, because Razor + Co and their nanoships are chilling in Querious) and assuming he doesn't make any mistakes, are minmatar recons, or other exceptionally fitted sabres/vagabonds, again mostly minmatar. The way this issue has been addressed is a little bit underhanded of ccp. It appears as everyone else has mentioned that the rigs are what to blame, and the implants. The interesting thing tho, is that this isn't the 1st time people have come out asking for a implant nerf. And addressing the problem of rapiers and huginns being the best counters is also an issue in itself. Makes it very difficult if you don't have a lot of minmatar skilled pilots. So thats my take. This issue has a many, MANY problems to contend with.
Karina Bellac	Posted - 2007.12.06 17:51:00 - [73] Originally by: Peanut Swsh ...and left the poor flycatcher doing an absolute pathetic 2.6k/s. This.
xHomicide Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2007.12.06 22:31:00 - [74] Edited by: xHomicide on 06/12/2007 22:38:20 Originally by: Orange Edited by: Orange on 06/12/2007 17:15:28 You know, having to deal with xHomocide every day when he was flying his 12k/s sabre was a royal pain the arse. It was amazing he could achieve such speeds with the game mechanics. The only real counter to his sabre (I only mention him, because Razor + Co and their nanoships are chilling in Querious) and assuming he doesn't make any mistakes, are minmatar recons, or other exceptionally fitted sabres/vagabonds, again mostly minmatar. The way this issue has been addressed is a little bit underhanded of ccp. It appears as everyone else has mentioned that the rigs are what to blame, and the implants. The interesting thing tho, is that this isn't the 1st time people have come out asking for a implant nerf. And addressing the problem of rapiers and huginns being the best counters is also an issue in itself. Makes it very difficult if you don't have a lot of minmatar skilled pilots. So thats my take. This issue has a many, MANY problems to contend with. Within those same mechanics ceptors go 18km/s and vagas go 11km/s, and as far as I know everyone is playing under the same mechanics. You are correct, it is not countered by 'bringing more ship'. It is countered by 1 person bringing the proper ship. Too many people seem to self justify their argument by saying "its too fast" without any further reason to why being "too fast" is a bad thing when the reality is they are just frustrated with their inability properly deal with the situation. Short of titans, dictors 'were' the best anti-blob mechanic in the entire game. Sadly changing the dictors the way they did has removed any effective tactic that allowed small gangs to out wit and divide blobs. Its a huge step backwards for actual game play. I think the whole 'the ship was too fast to kill' argument is a total joke. The fact of the matter is, the ship should be too fast to kill, it puts itself in situations which anything less results in certain death. as far as aggression goes...I could care less if it is 'logical' that bubbles cause aggression. The fact of the matter is, logical or not, it gave interdictors the ability to bubble blobs of players and make it out alive. As illogic as it might be, it added wonderful tactics and entertaining game play. Now there is affectively NO way to bubble blobs of players without exploding, again, adding to the already eve-dominating tactic of 'bringing more ships'. Honestly, the most significant affect of this change is a dictors inability to bubble oversized blobs. Blobs basically suck every last entertaining element out of eve, and the fact of the matter is, now the only way to counter "another spaceship" is..... "another spaceship." --- Razor CEI
Jallem Sims Minmatar Exploring Blind	Posted - 2007.12.06 23:49:00 - [75] just would be nice for some resoning for this from CCP.... but noone! its a real shame.... i was trying to hightlight this before, but many times the thread got locked... only thing i can think of is to bump till someone provides some reason why this was needed?
Turin Caldari Eternity INC. Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2007.12.07 00:05:00 - [76] Are you guys really surprised this patch went in like this? Lets face it. CCP have been becoming more and more silent on game changes as time has gone by. Why this is I do not know. And this patch being the total farce that it is, of course they were going to impliment this. This patch was the biggest nerf bomb to ever hit SISI _________________________________
Andreya Murder-Death-Kill	Posted - 2007.12.07 16:47:00 - [77] return interdictors back to the way they were please. and give us a fracking reply as to why you guys were doing this, we've been askin gyou for like 3 weeks now... hundreds of times.. and not one response yet _________________________________________________________ Only once you've lost everything, are you free to do anything.
Futher Bezluden Minmatar ORIGIN SYSTEMS Atlas Alliance	Posted - 2007.12.07 16:57:00 - [78] Originally by: fire 59 Cost is no justification for near immunity, otherwise the titan would be unstoppable. They are specialised ships, to drop bubbles and die. By Fire 59's reasoning, CCP should nerf snakes and multi-ODJ/Poly ship. I like it. Make it so. THUKKER -Be Paranoid Skeet Skeet L33t
Self One	Posted - 2007.12.07 20:10:00 - [79] New game mechanic : - Dictor on gate bubbbles as hostile ship comes in - Hostile ship xas Huginn / rapier - Hostile ship decloack only by trying warping out thus giving dictor aggro - Huginn / rapier kills dictor even if this one has adapted itself and tried to go outside it's bubble aligned with something. Bye bye. Yay Way to go ... what a great gameplay you have offered us there CCP.
Ernest Graefenberg Minmatar Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2007.12.09 22:34:00 - [80] Hey remember this time the only justification for a major un-fun change was a few fallacies? That was fantastic. At least we get Hyenas and Bombs to make gatecamping more fun. I love me some gatecamping.

Skraeling Shortbus Caldari The Arrow Project Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2007.12.10 02:06:00 - [81] Well think about it... before the nerf if you could fly a sabre why would you ever fly any interceptor ever? Or any of the other interdictors for that matter. Be just as fast, have more firepower, have a bubble what are the drawbacks to flying a dictor over an inty as they used to be? Love to the Assault Frigate!
Tadehiro Kudzu Collective	Posted - 2007.12.10 02:22:00 - [82] Originally by: Skraeling Shortbus Well think about it... before the nerf if you could fly a sabre why would you ever fly any interceptor ever? Or any of the other interdictors for that matter. Be just as fast, have more firepower, have a bubble what are the drawbacks to flying a dictor over an inty as they used to be? Then why nerf ALL the dictors if the SABRE was the only problem?
Ernest Graefenberg Minmatar Cutting Edge Incorporated RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2007.12.11 06:57:00 - [83] Edited by: Ernest Graefenberg on 11/12/2007 07:01:10 Originally by: Skraeling Shortbus Well think about it... before the nerf if you could fly a sabre why would you ever fly any interceptor ever? Or any of the other interdictors for that matter. Be just as fast, have more firepower, have a bubble what are the drawbacks to flying a dictor over an inty as they used to be? You mean besides being roughly 40% faster, locking faster, being harder to lose, cheaper and the 29km Disruptor/sustained point buff with Trinity? This never stops being fun, come on do it again - bring out every old fallacy for another spin. We haven't seen and heard all the 'too fast' tripe yet. Remember, because a vast quantity of idiots agree with you, it's totally okay to be factually off-base, knowingly lie or just skip argumentation entirely and appeal to emotion. Go for it buddy. Being able to bubble up groups totally made inties unnecessary, sure. Wait, no it didn't. It's only the method (aggressed and localized) of tackling that is impractical due to ECM, recons and anyone of the defenders that spends more than 2 minutes on their Interceptors fittings that make/made 'dictors indispensable. Not that Interceptors aren't massively, massively better at holding down single targets, it's that holding down single targets is conceptually equivalent to fighting with toothpicks.
Erotic Irony 0bsession	Posted - 2007.12.11 07:45:00 - [84] Edited by: Erotic Irony on 11/12/2007 07:48:22 assuming a mindlinked claymore is boosting a lowgrade snake in gang, how close can you get to the "old" speeds? edit: oh :[ ___ Eve Players are not very smart. Support Killmail Overhaul
Andreya Murder-Death-Kill	Posted - 2007.12.12 13:14:00 - [85] bump, i am still waiting for a CCP reply dealing with this dictor issue _________________________________________________________ Only once you've lost everything, are you free to do anything.
Jallem Sims Minmatar Exploring Blind	Posted - 2007.12.14 13:22:00 - [86] x inty //never fly a coffin to a fleet battle unless you are there to die... have no implants in and only have launcher on highslot... but really kinda pointless anyway cause your never going to get to the bs gang anyway!//
Tomic The Illuminati. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.12.18 04:21:00 - [87] The way I see it, CCP took something that was fun to fly and ruined it. It's not the first time they've done this and it won't be the last. The nerf bat has swung and that is that.
Corporal Fyarr	Posted - 2007.12.18 12:40:00 - [88] Its funny we pay to play the game but the devs don't want to hear our opinion on an update sad sad .
Remlin Caldari DarkStar 1	Posted - 2007.12.20 00:09:00 - [89] Edited by: Remlin on 20/12/2007 00:14:22 I just tested the Trinity Flycather and Heretic. Aggression for Warp Disrupt probes is reasonable. I am very disappointed with the other changes. First let me point out the time investment: Interdictor Requirments: Interceptors Level IV Racial Frigate Level V Destroyers Level V Spaceship Command Level IV Evasive Maneuvering Level V Interdictors Level IV (No Decent Pilot Flies Level I) Ship Specfic Weapon Requirements Level IV Skills for Speed Mods: Navigation Level IV Afterburner Level IV High Speed Maneuvering Level III Hull Upgrades Level II Interdiction Sphere Launcher I: Propulsion Jamming Level V Science Level V Engineering Level V Graviton Physics Level I Electronics Level III Navigation Level II So bascially the interdictor equals... - Time Sink - #1 Primary Target - To Slow to Deliver Payload - To Slow to save the Pilot from escaping ground zero - No Tank - Firepower to Ineffective to fight alone Now keep in mind this a technologicaly advanced DESTROYER: - Can easly cost 100m+. - 0.0 PVP Specific Use Versus Multiple Targets. - Will more than likely be destroyed when it flies directly into the middle of the enemy position to deliver payload. - Useless to anyone else except those who love to 100m+ ISK per sortie. Who the hell would want to use such a stupidly designed death trap. Introduction of these type of abrupt enexplained changes that suggest the game design team have no idea what direction they are going in. Most importantly, it kills the immersion factor for me and is upsetting. Now I am herded to spend more time generating more ISK just to use a ship that the equavalent of a tissue. 1 or 2 Sorties per use/luck. I really don't care about the new guys on the CCP Development Team trying to make their mark within the code. I really don't care about their hardons to get involved deep enough to proudly say "Yea, I added that to EvE Online". I give a dam about playing EvE and I do want to be wanto play and not be turned off from it. Those coders with the "WTF" ideas can go get some coffee for the guys who understand: "IF IT IS NOT BROKEN, DO NOT FIX IT" "Aut Vincere Aut Mori"


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