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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 1 post(s) |
Freya Runestone
Minmatar Brutor tribe
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Posted - 2007.11.25 00:19:00 -
[31]
CCP doesn't support cheating. It's not against any rules, so it isn't cheating, and that really is the end of the argument.
There are a lot of player who are happy that they can buy game time for ingame ISK. Play a game they really enjoy for free. And CCP gets the subscription money anyway. everybody wins. Besides, if they make this illegal. some people will stop playing because they don't want to spend the money. less game cards get sold. The people who really want to convert real life currency to ingame currency will find a way to do so. so doing it this way is an advantage for everybody
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need a new sig :( |
BubbaZanetti
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Posted - 2007.11.25 00:21:00 -
[32]
Originally by: Liv Forever buyers are pathetic and I can play my own way- as some of you have said. It's just a pity that CCP facilitates it and that's why i wanted dev response. Not because I'm being*****y or arrogant.
Please go diaf.
If you would prefer an even playing field, where real life has no effect on anyone's standing in the game, then we'll all need to limit our play time to whoever can play the least amount of time per week. After all, it's not fair that by people having more time to play than me, they can make more money than me in the game. That would be bringing real life advantages into it.
Also, no one is allowed to have multiple accounts anymore. If some people can't afford it, then no one should be allowed.
Further, all this skill progression has to go. After all, it's not fair that someone found the game two or three years before I did, and has more skill points than me because of it. Circumstances in real life shouldn't affect gameplay at all.
Yeah... Right...
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Malcanis
High4Life SMASH Alliance
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Posted - 2007.11.25 00:21:00 -
[33]
Originally by: Liv Forever Edited by: Liv Forever on 24/11/2007 23:21:44 Edited by: Liv Forever on 24/11/2007 23:21:15 Thanks for the intelligent replies. Interestingly nothing official yet. If i were them I would be to embarrassed, hypocritical or contradicted to say anything either. I mean really they can't have a valid argument that doesnt't sound like bs. Can they?
BTW note that GTC-for-ISK sales are strictly between players. CCP do not sell ISK. This is an important difference.
CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that. |
Jonny JoJo
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Posted - 2007.11.25 00:23:00 -
[34]
Hang on
Some guy spending 500 bucks on GTC's is "cheating".
What if the same guy uses the same money to buy multiple subcriptions and afk the accounts while they collect datacores? That is exactly the same thing
What about the person who uses a 2nd account to haul his ore, just so he can avoid having to do it with 1 account? Again, use of extra cash for money. Is this cheating?
This GTC thing is actually quite intresting. It brings in a lot of poor people who could not afford to ever play this game, and helps to destroy isk farmers.
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Crumplecorn
Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations
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Posted - 2007.11.25 00:27:00 -
[35]
Originally by: Jonny JoJo Hang on
Some guy spending 500 bucks on GTC's is "cheating".
What if the same guy uses the same money to buy multiple subcriptions and afk the accounts while they collect datacores? That is exactly the same thing
What about the person who uses a 2nd account to haul his ore, just so he can avoid having to do it with 1 account? Again, use of extra cash for money. Is this cheating?
This GTC thing is actually quite intresting. It brings in a lot of poor people who could not afford to ever play this game, and helps to destroy isk farmers.
At least if you use alts you are putting in more work (e.g., being both the miner and hauler at the same time). With ISK buying someone unconnected to you puts in the effort and you simply, well, buy the ISK.
I'm not disagreeing with you really, the two are similar, but I think multi-accounting is somewhat more 'virtuous' since you at least put in the extra work yourself. -
I wish I was a three foot female doll with a watering can and heterochromatic eyes. |
Malcanis
High4Life SMASH Alliance
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Posted - 2007.11.25 00:29:00 -
[36]
Originally by: BubbaZanetti
Originally by: Liv Forever buyers are pathetic and I can play my own way- as some of you have said. It's just a pity that CCP facilitates it and that's why i wanted dev response. Not because I'm being*****y or arrogant.
Please go diaf.
If you would prefer an even playing field, where real life has no effect on anyone's standing in the game, then we'll all need to limit our play time to whoever can play the least amount of time per week. After all, it's not fair that by people having more time to play than me, they can make more money than me in the game. That would be bringing real life advantages into it.
Also, no one is allowed to have multiple accounts anymore. If some people can't afford it, then no one should be allowed.
Further, all this skill progression has to go. After all, it's not fair that someone found the game two or three years before I did, and has more skill points than me because of it. Circumstances in real life shouldn't affect gameplay at all.
Yeah... Right...
Eh, well, having more than one account isn't *quite* the same as buying ISK, but I can see how it could be compared for the purposes of this argument. I don't think we need to go into that line of argument here.
Basically as long as GTC sales aren't abused they're not really a problem. Busy guy who likes to pewpew but only get a few hours a week to play EvE buys a couple of 30-days to pay for a new BS? Not really a problem. Dude who buys $5000 of GTCs to buy an officer fitted Mom? Tbh even that's not a problem - he probably won't last very long. Dude who buys $10000 of GTCs to fund an entire alliance war? OK now this could start to be a problem. How often does this happen? I'll guess "not very".
CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that. |
Liv Forever
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Posted - 2007.11.25 00:29:00 -
[37]
Edited by: Liv Forever on 25/11/2007 00:31:32 Lazuran-that is a good point-u say Eve is a RMT game. Well,perhaps we could get an official response there. If Eve is a RMT game then it changes everything. I remember reading about a Japanese viking game where ppl bought ships with rl money. That was part of the game. So if Eve is intended to be a RMT lets get the devs to state this so we know what we're in for. Otherwise stop making it one and stop b%$^ Sh%&%^& in EVE insider as i quoted in the OP
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Stakhanov
The Good Fellas
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Posted - 2007.11.25 00:32:00 -
[38]
Basically , CCP's stance and PR towards the issue is :
BUYING ISK BAD !
but trading GTCs is ok
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Crumplecorn
Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations
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Posted - 2007.11.25 00:33:00 -
[39]
Originally by: Liv Forever Lazuran-that is a good point-u say Eve is a RMT game. Well,perhaps we could get an officail response there. If Ev is a RMT game then it changes everything. I remember reading about a Japanese viking game where ppl bought ships with rl money. that was part of the game. So if Eve is intended to be a RMT lets get the devs to state this so we know what we;re in for. Otherwise stop making it one and stop b%$^ Sh%&%^& in EVE insider as i quoted in the OP
RMT is unavoidable, not intended.
And it doesn't change much of anything. EVE is too diverse and dynamic a system for simple ISK redistribution to have a significant impact on your gameplay. Unless you actually encounter the person directly, it will not have any effect on your gameplay. -
I wish I was a three foot female doll with a watering can and heterochromatic eyes. |
Liv Forever
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Posted - 2007.11.25 00:33:00 -
[40]
Edited by: Liv Forever on 25/11/2007 00:33:40
Originally by: Malcanis
Originally by: Liv Forever Edited by: Liv Forever on 24/11/2007 23:21:44 Edited by: Liv Forever on 24/11/2007 23:21:15 Thanks for the intelligent replies. Interestingly nothing official yet. If i were them I would be to embarrassed, hypocritical or contradicted to say anything either. I mean really they can't have a valid argument that doesnt't sound like bs. Can they?
BTW note that GTC-for-ISK sales are strictly between players. CCP do not sell ISK. This is an important difference.
that's why i used the words 'facilitate' and 'condone'
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Cpt Fina
Mutually Assured Distraction
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Posted - 2007.11.25 00:39:00 -
[41]
Originally by: Crumplecorn
Originally by: Cpt Fina Legalizing something just because you can't effectively stop it?
Nice logic.
Would you prefer that CCP tried to stop it on principle, knowing that all they would achieve is cutting off this revenue stream?
Yes, I would like them to try to stop all cash <-> ISK transactions even tho they may do a ****ty job. It would be a step in the right direction of balancing the game.
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Setana Manoro
Gallente Firefly Inc.
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Posted - 2007.11.25 00:40:00 -
[42]
Originally by: Lazuran It's sad, but that's how it is ... EVE is a semi-RMT game. You can feel free to doubt the following claims, but most people will know that they are facts:
- most supercap owners in EVE bought their supercaps with RL money (through illegal or legal ISK purchases) - several famous PVP corps replace their losses with RL money - many, many T2 BPO owners invested RL money to buy their BPOs
In the end, most people who are considered very successful in EVE, bought their way ahead with RL money (very few exceptions unfortunately).
If you can live with these facts, then EVE is for you. Otherwise, you might want to reconsider...
Proof or STFU.
Really, post some fracking proof or just go back into the hole you came from after the idiotic thing you just said. Just because someone knows the game better than you, and has more play time available which allows him to make 10b+ / month with ease does not mean he used/would use his RL money to do it.
Rifter is not X-Wing CCP. Trinity model kinda sucks. |
Kenneth McCoy
Vale Heavy Industries Molotov Coalition
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Posted - 2007.11.25 00:41:00 -
[43]
You're not going to get a dev response. It's just not a problem in their eyes. And from the looks of it, you're fairly outnumbered in opinions here. One of the guys made an excellent point a few posts up, it's only really going to be a problem if someone drops hundreds, thousands of dollars to fund a course of action that significantly changes the course of the game.
I'm willing to bet that doesn't happen all too often. And besides, it's been made very clear to us that EVE is not a solo game. No ONE person should be able to make a huge impact, no matter how much money he has.
SO WHAT if some rich ******* buys enough money to buy and pimp a faction battleship. They can be taken down with two, or three, normal battleships.
A single person CAN'T buy a titan, they need to have extensive ingame contacts.
If they do that have, and still buy a titan... well hell, how many titans are being shot down these days?
My point is, who cares if someone has theoretically endless amounts of money. It doesn't really affect all of us.
It's possible moral downsides do not outweigh the real tangible benefits, and therefor, it will..not..change.
So get over yourself.
My opinions and views are not the official views of my Corp. |
Tortun Nahme
Minmatar Heimatar Services Conglomerate
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Posted - 2007.11.25 00:41:00 -
[44]
*yawn* the thread was lost on the first page, give me some more ammunition or crawl back into your holes before I fall asleep
Originally by: Cecil Montague They should change that warning on entering low sec to:
"Go read Crime and Punishment for a few days then come back."
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Plutoinum
German Cyberdome Corp Cult of War
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Posted - 2007.11.25 00:45:00 -
[45]
Originally by: Valan Out of interest I wonder if CCP are reconsidering the GTC thing in light of the arrests in the Netherlands for online theft.
Hmm, you can't buy isk for money. You can buy gametime for money. You can give the gametime to someone else in exchange for some of the isk in that guys wallet that nevertheless will always stay CCP's property like all other virtual items, no matter on which character they currently are.
So actually you can't buy isk in EVE 'legally', because they stay property of CCP. You can only pay someone with gametime to transfer some of the wallet in his characters wallet to you and let you play with those still CCP'owned isk.
My conclusion: You pay for a player service with gametime, the service being transferring some (ccp-owned) isk in your wallet to someone else to play with them.
A legal part of playing with those (ccp-owned isk) is e.g. trying to obtain someoneelse's isk by trying to scam him or by just stealing them.
Besides that there is no legal way to convert isk back to real currency, which fits perfectly to my interpretation.
P.S.: I'm not a lawyer, but that would be my argumentation. If that issue isn't clear to the customer, I'd integrate it in the rules.
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Setana Manoro
Gallente Firefly Inc.
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Posted - 2007.11.25 00:45:00 -
[46]
Originally by: Liv Forever Edited by: Liv Forever on 24/11/2007 23:09:58 First of all, money is power in EVE. Buying your way to power while others slowly and surely play their way towards the top (within the rules!) with their fists clenched and a mad glint in their eyes, is cheating. Plain and simple. EVE is intended to be a level playground where people either make it or not based solely on their abilities and hard work INSIDE EVE, not outside of it. It should not matter whether you are a rich man or a poor man in the real world. Once you enter the magnificent world of EVE Online, all that should matter is how well you put your abilities to use in the game and the thickness of oneÆs real world wallet should not be used to tip the balance-quoted from EVE insider
So why does CCP allow ppl to sell GTC for ISK-that uses real life money to buy in game currency. Ppl r not making money through hard work INSIDE EVE. I have only been playing this game 5 days and I know others have posted on this but I haven't seen an official response yet. I think that it is disgusting and hypocritical and ruins the PVE aspect of EVE completely. I am thinking of cancelling my subscription given that it debases such a massive part of the game. Why would i bother mining for hours and hours a day when i can work 15 minutes irl for the same reward. CCP PLEASE STOP FACILITATING PPL CHEATING. I would like an official response please-or to be directed to one.
You've started this thread saying your a noob of 5d. Ok. Now what you said is a generalization that can only be made if you have been playing for some time and know concrete cases. Now i know you are not a noob. You are just some player, who decided to play the shocked noob card, too afraid to post with any of your other characters. As for as I am concerned you are a flamer, and this thread should be closed down.
Rifter is not X-Wing CCP. Trinity model kinda sucks. |
Paulo Damarr
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Posted - 2007.11.25 00:53:00 -
[47]
Originally by: Liv Forever ... ruins the PVE aspect of EVE completely.
What the hell have missions and ratting got to do with the issue anyway?
Originally by: Tortun Nahme CCP also condones thinking, I suggest you try it from tiem to time
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Malcanis
High4Life SMASH Alliance
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Posted - 2007.11.25 00:54:00 -
[48]
Originally by: Liv Forever Edited by: Liv Forever on 25/11/2007 00:33:40
Originally by: Malcanis
Originally by: Liv Forever Edited by: Liv Forever on 24/11/2007 23:21:44 Edited by: Liv Forever on 24/11/2007 23:21:15 Thanks for the intelligent replies. Interestingly nothing official yet. If i were them I would be to embarrassed, hypocritical or contradicted to say anything either. I mean really they can't have a valid argument that doesnt't sound like bs. Can they?
BTW note that GTC-for-ISK sales are strictly between players. CCP do not sell ISK. This is an important difference.
that's why i used the words 'facilitate' and 'condone'
Well I already said I don't like GTC for ISK, but that I acceptit. it's one of those issues, where not matter what you do, it's at least partly wrong. I freely admit that I argued bitterly against it in the past based on pretty much the same principles that you're expounding. However, having played the game for longer, I've come to realise something important:
It doesn't really affect me
I don't feel significantly disadvantaged buy GTC sellers. I run a great corp with some fantastic members, I make enough ISK to fly the ships I have fun flying, I'm in an alliance which almost perfectly suits me, and I just don't care that some people sell GTCs to officer-fit the mission-running CNR.
Back when 50M ISk was an unbelievable amount of money to me, I felt pretty strongly about GTC sales. Now I can pull in 100M in a couple of hours, and tbh, I just don't care as much. It's like when people cry and pull their hair out and hold their breath because Race 'A' has a better BC than Race 'B'. Yes, in theory balance should be perfect. In practice, I'm aware that this is impossible and (just) mature enough to accept it even when this disadvantages me.
So allow me to repeat: I don't like GTC for ISK, but I acceptit.
Every alternative to GTC sales is worse than the problem. Ban it? Then people will get scammed for RMT, and ISK farmers will proliferate even more. And a large number of people who currently play won't be able to. Yeah great solution mate: CCP's income drops, the player-base drops, farmers proliferate.
If you want a real-world analogy, look what happened in the Prohibition: alcohol consumption increased and there were gangs of criminals shooting the place up as well. Great result.
So if you want to stop GTC sales, you have to come up with an alternative that allows
(1) People without much money to continue playing (2) Does not increase the demand for RMT ISK (3) Does not reduce CCP's cashflow.
If you have this solution I, and I'm sure CCP as well, are all ears.
CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that. |
pain supplier
Amarr
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Posted - 2007.11.25 00:55:00 -
[49]
flame bait post. Let pepole pay/buy gtc it is much better than the consequenxes of not having the GTC - Farmers and you dont have to pay r/l cash for a really good game.
I agree this should be locked for the reasons posted above.
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Kerfira
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Posted - 2007.11.25 00:55:00 -
[50]
Edited by: Kerfira on 25/11/2007 00:55:42 Amazing how long people keep beating dead horses.....
While GTC sales aren't my cup of tea, having them solves more problems than they cause. 1. I puts a ceiling to the price ISK-farmers can charge for their ill-gotten gains. 2. It enables people to play who couldn't otherwise afford it. More players is good. 3. It enables people to play who couldn't be arsed grinding, but who likes to PvP. Whether you call that cheating or not, it means more players which is good. 4. Having a safe method for doing the exchange means less players get scammed.
If GTC sales hadn't been condoned by CCP, guess what! It would have happened anyway!
The OP can wish as much as he wants for the perfect world of Blizard's WoW (awfully crappy game, btw), but they do have REALLY big problems with gold farming and selling which are much less in EVE.
All in all, the OP's arguments are silly (unless one lives in a perfect universe), and one could almost think he was an ISK-seller desperate to get his prices up....
And as for the argument that most supercaps has been bought for GTC money I know quite a few supercap owners, and ALL of them are either built from T2 BPO money, from corp/alliance money, or by very successful (and hardworking) builders/traders. A lot of it is 'old' money too, from the time when T2 BPO's REALLY made money!
Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
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Tacitus Krekt
The Phoenix Rising FreeFall Securities
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Posted - 2007.11.25 00:55:00 -
[51]
Edited by: Tacitus Krekt on 25/11/2007 00:56:37 It doesn't annoy me.
Why? The answer is quite simple.
I play EVE because of the challenge. When I am able to overcome challenge without outside means, and play the game as is -- I find enjoyment. Whatever means I have of obtaining ISK in game is my own. Furthermore, the ships that I am able to purchase and field with the ISK that I gain further perpetuates that feeling of self accomplishment.
Now if I were to go and blow $200 buying GTC's to sell for in game ISK -- I would be able to deck out quite a few ships, as well as purchase more than I currently need. However, I don't gain that "feeling" of self accomplishment. Granted, via real life means I furthered my wallet in EVE -- but in retrospect I am not playing the game and having the fun that self accomplishment brings.
Am I mad that people spend money to further their wallet in EVE? No. Why should I be? They aren't ruining MY experieince, rather, they're ruining THEIRS. What someone else does with their time and money is NONE of my business. You do what floats your boat, not worry how other are floating theirs.
Spelling/grammar
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Liv Forever
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Posted - 2007.11.25 00:58:00 -
[52]
Edited by: Liv Forever on 25/11/2007 01:02:53 Lol Setana, i have been playing since Wednesday and now it is Sunday-that is 5 days. I do not have to have played a long time to see something that seems unfair. Some of the arguments that people have made from experience make sense to me and I am thinking about them-such as the real impact of ISK buying etc and how it's impact is less than i supposed. However trust me I am noob and not flaming-that's y i got annoyed by the mindless insults of kenneth and tortun who at 1st decided to make no intelligent argument and just abuse me-they have started to try to justify more now which is great most ppl who have posted r against it but have resigned themselves to it happening and believe that CCP won't stop so they have had to rationalise it. But I have listened to the many thoughtful rationalisations and i am sure that i will do the same thing as i become more experienced :P
and y would i not flame-think of it this way Being famous on the forums is like being famous in xxx movies-you may be famous but you're still in xxx movies!
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Tortun Nahme
Minmatar Heimatar Services Conglomerate
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Posted - 2007.11.25 01:02:00 -
[53]
aww we hurt the wickle noobs feewings wif our meanness
Originally by: Cecil Montague They should change that warning on entering low sec to:
"Go read Crime and Punishment for a few days then come back."
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Malcanis
High4Life SMASH Alliance
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Posted - 2007.11.25 01:03:00 -
[54]
Originally by: Tortun Nahme aww we hurt the wickle noobs feewings wif our meanness
If she thinks this is bad, wait till she hits lo-sec
CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that. |
Setana Manoro
Gallente Firefly Inc.
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Posted - 2007.11.25 01:04:00 -
[55]
Originally by: Liv Forever Lol Setana, i have been playing since Wednesday and now it is Sunday-that is 5 days. I do not have to have played a long time to see something that seems unfair. Some of the arguments that people have made from experience make sense to me and I am thinking about them-such as the real impact of ISK buying etc and how it's impact is less than i supposed. However trust me I am noob and not flaming-that;s y i got annoyed by the mindless insults of kenneth and tortun who at 1st decided to make no intelligent argument and just abuse me-they ahve started to try to justify more now which is great most ppl who have posted r against it but have resigned themselves to it happening and believe that CCP won't stop so they have had to rationalise it. But I have listened to the many thoughtful rationalisations and i am sure that i will do the same thing as i become more experienced :P
and y would i not flame-think of it this way Being famous on the forums is like being famous in ****-you may be famous but you're still in ****!
Ok, if you have been playing for 5d then you do not know the game and you do not know the implications of these transations and why are they done, then your responses in this thread have all been to grab attention to yourself, and this should be locked.
PS: You were given those responses because you put forward affirmations that cannot be made from a 5d gaming experience. You were also given those responses because you are a npc corp alt, because such alts are used to post on the forums to not show the main, and because others have done so before you.
PPS: You have listened to no rational responses. There are a few on the 1st page. You respond only to those that give even a hint of "you are wrong/ it is too early for you to judge/think it out for yourself". Like you do now.
Rifter is not X-Wing CCP. Trinity model kinda sucks. |
Liv Forever
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Posted - 2007.11.25 01:04:00 -
[56]
Edited by: Liv Forever on 25/11/2007 01:04:19 lol tortun ur so sad also by all means close post but not surpsisingly did't get official response.
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Tortun Nahme
Minmatar Heimatar Services Conglomerate
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Posted - 2007.11.25 01:05:00 -
[57]
holy CRUD it just hit me!
bad english, incoherent posts
THIS IS AN ISK SELLER WHINE THREAD ABOUT GTC SALES CUTTING INTO PROFITS
Originally by: Cecil Montague They should change that warning on entering low sec to:
"Go read Crime and Punishment for a few days then come back."
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Kenneth McCoy
Vale Heavy Industries Molotov Coalition
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Posted - 2007.11.25 01:08:00 -
[58]
Originally by: Tortun Nahme aww we hurt the wickle noobs feewings wif our meanness
*high fives*
My opinions and views are not the official views of my Corp. |
Liv Forever
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Posted - 2007.11.25 01:09:00 -
[59]
Edited by: Liv Forever on 25/11/2007 01:11:23 Edited by: Liv Forever on 25/11/2007 01:11:01 Edited by: Liv Forever on 25/11/2007 01:10:49 Edited by: Liv Forever on 25/11/2007 01:10:32 Setana I made the post because all MMOs rely heavily on an underlying philosphy to support them-it's what gives players a feeling of immersion and makes them different from FPS games or RTS. I was interested in what underlying ethos and philosophy is predominant in this game so that I can better immerse myself in it. I have been impressed by most peoples thoughtfulness and maturity. (apart from the 2 12yr olds i mentioned earlier) So thanks for the ideas-I'm happy for the post to be closed although disappointed at no official response as after all CCP has a big impact on the underlying ethos of this game. I don't want to be famous on forums as I explained in my last post lol
Beng famous on forums is like being famous in xxx movies-you might be famous but ur still in xxx movies
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Tortun Nahme
Minmatar Heimatar Services Conglomerate
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Posted - 2007.11.25 01:11:00 -
[60]
the hypocricy is delicious
Originally by: Cecil Montague They should change that warning on entering low sec to:
"Go read Crime and Punishment for a few days then come back."
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