EVE Search - CCP condones cheating

All Channels

EVE General Discussion

CCP condones cheating

» Click here to find additional results for this topic using Google

Monitor this thread via RSS [?]

Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 6 :: [one page]
Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 1 post(s)
Liv Forever	Posted - 2007.11.24 23:08:00 - [1] Edited by: Liv Forever on 24/11/2007 23:09:58 First of all, money is power in EVE. Buying your way to power while others slowly and surely play their way towards the top (within the rules!) with their fists clenched and a mad glint in their eyes, is cheating. Plain and simple. EVE is intended to be a level playground where people either make it or not based solely on their abilities and hard work INSIDE EVE, not outside of it. It should not matter whether you are a rich man or a poor man in the real world. Once you enter the magnificent world of EVE Online, all that should matter is how well you put your abilities to use in the game and the thickness of oneÆs real world wallet should not be used to tip the balance-quoted from EVE insider So why does CCP allow ppl to sell GTC for ISK-that uses real life money to buy in game currency. Ppl r not making money through hard work INSIDE EVE. I have only been playing this game 5 days and I know others have posted on this but I haven't seen an official response yet. I think that it is disgusting and hypocritical and ruins the PVE aspect of EVE completely. I am thinking of cancelling my subscription given that it debases such a massive part of the game. Why would i bother mining for hours and hours a day when i can work 15 minutes irl for the same reward. CCP PLEASE STOP FACILITATING PPL CHEATING. I would like an official response please-or to be directed to one.
cal nereus Bounty Hunter - Dark Legion Brutally Clever Empire	Posted - 2007.11.24 23:12:00 - [2] If CCP says it isn't cheating, it isn't. It's their game, they set the rules, and the rest of us are just players. We don't own any part of their game. If it gets really bad, we can stop playing. I'm sure CCP knows this, which is why they probably won't openly condone what is generally perceived as cheating. --- Join BH-DL Skills
Asestorian Domination. Cult of War	Posted - 2007.11.24 23:13:00 - [3] Been gone over before, with some people ready to chop *****es off over it if it doesn't stop, and others who can only play because of being able to buy the GTCs via ingame money as they can't afford to pay the fee otherwise. After all this time I doubt CCP are going to change it very soon. --- MOZO
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2007.11.24 23:13:00 - [4] CCP is pragmatic; this way they get money from the RMT that would inevitably occur no matter what they did. As for people succeeding in game due to RL money: a) There are so many people at so many different points in this game that a few artificially speeding up their development will make no difference b) Just having more ISK is not success, and just getting ISK will not make you successful. But yes, it is cheating. - I wish I was a three foot female doll with a watering can and heterochromatic eyes.
000Hunter000 Gallente Magners Marauders	Posted - 2007.11.24 23:15:00 - [5] Allthough i somewhat agree on the part where i also personally think that having a big wallet outside eve should not make a difference in what u are ingame, u will get flamed with stuff like 'can i have ur stuff' for threatning to cancel ur sub. Best advice i can give u is not let it get to u and if someone buys stuff with gtc isk just point and laugh at them and call them noobs no amount of isk can change the fact that they are that... NOOBS hehe like a few days ago, some ebay guy or gtc seller guy who bought a dread in hi sec, just realizing he couldn't really do crap with it but fly it around in system (he didn't have a cyno alt hehehe) CCP, let us pay the online shop with Direct Debit!!! Magners is now recruiting, evemail me or Dagazbo ingame.
Darwinia Minmatar	Posted - 2007.11.24 23:16:00 - [6] Look at it this way: when they lose ships, they lose REAL LIFE MONEY. That being said I don't like CCPs policy either, but I can live with it, since it's the lesser of two evils and has some positive sides. ------------------------ I don't believe in sigs.
Liv Forever	Posted - 2007.11.24 23:18:00 - [7] They openly condone it buy facilitating it. I have played other games where devs sell in game currency but they have little if ne pve component and so it is less of an issue. Blizzard would never sell gold in WOW and would not facilitate it. I would rather play this game because part of the appeal for me of EVE is ability for players to significantly affect environment in game.CCP facilitating the selling of ISK makes a mockery of this game imo.
Liv Forever	Posted - 2007.11.24 23:21:00 - [8] Edited by: Liv Forever on 24/11/2007 23:21:44 Edited by: Liv Forever on 24/11/2007 23:21:15 Thanks for the intelligent replies. Interestingly nothing official yet. If i were them I would be to embarrassed, hypocritical or contradicted to say anything either. I mean really they can't have a valid argument that doesnt't sound like bs. Can they?
northwesten Amarr Trinity Corporate Services	Posted - 2007.11.24 23:23:00 - [9] better CCP get money for isk than someone else doing it. Free Corporation website? click here Trinity Corporate Services Website
Asestorian Domination. Cult of War	Posted - 2007.11.24 23:24:00 - [10] Also Crumplecorn is right. People will buy ISK for real life money anyway, and this way CCP get that money, someone gets to play the game who otherwise couldn't because they can't afford to pay their own money, and I think that you get less ISK for the same RL money via CCP's method anyway than you would if you were doing it against the EULA. Not to mention the other points about how ISK doesn't mean you win, and because it is a game where you lose things, when the idiots who decided they needed to buy money to get ahead inevitably lose their ships they've lost real life money. --- MOZO
Kenneth McCoy Vale Heavy Industries Molotov Coalition	Posted - 2007.11.24 23:31:00 - [11] Stop thinking your some genius pointing this out and demanding a dev response. Your not going to get an answer that satisfies you. And I can't be assed to type more. Go play wow. My opinions and views are not the official views of my Corp.
Cpt Fina Mutually Assured Distraction	Posted - 2007.11.24 23:39:00 - [12] Legalizing something just because you can't effectively stop it? Nice logic. Isk-buyers are getting an unfair in-game advantage. 14 dollars per month will only grant you Eve-light.
Paulo Damarr	Posted - 2007.11.24 23:45:00 - [13] 12th in the 173274847837847547534953th Thread about GTCs Selling GTC for ISK is no more gaining an advantage with RL money than having multiple accounts and neither is it it different from people buying chars with ISK. And I doubt CCP will change anything just because you made a post about it, not unless your a majority stockholder in their company. I wont ask for your stuff because your obviously to poor to buy lots of GTCs and have nice stuff. Cloaks!!
Tortun Nahme Minmatar Heimatar Services Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.11.24 23:49:00 - [14] Originally by: Paulo Damarr 12th in the 173274847837847547534953th Thread about GTCs Selling GTC for ISK is no more gaining an advantage with RL money than having multiple accounts and neither is it it different from people buying chars with ISK. And I doubt CCP will change anything just because you made a post about it, not unless your a majority stockholder in their company. I wont ask for your stuff because your obviously to poor to buy lots of GTCs and have nice stuff. and since CCP is not publicly traded there is no threat of that! Originally by: Cecil Montague They should change that warning on entering low sec to: "Go read Crime and Punishment for a few days then come back."
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2007.11.24 23:50:00 - [15] Originally by: Cpt Fina Legalizing something just because you can't effectively stop it? Nice logic. Would you prefer that CCP tried to stop it on principle, knowing that all they would achieve is cutting off this revenue stream? - I wish I was a three foot female doll with a watering can and heterochromatic eyes.
Liv Forever	Posted - 2007.11.24 23:51:00 - [16] Kenneth-you're the only person who has turned this into a personal attack. I never indicated that I felt that i ws a genious for pointing this out and I am asking for a dev response because I would like them to stop doing something that seems clearly wrong. If they can justify it adequately maybe they will change my thinking as I am not that pig headed. I don't know why your being so defensive about it. Do you feel guilty because you can't make your way in this game without selling GTC? Thanks again to all the intelligent responses. I have food for thought and will probably take the view that buyers are pathetic and I can play my own way- as some of you have said. It's just a pity that CCP facilitates it and that's why i wanted dev response. Not because I'm being*****y or arrogant.
Liv Forever	Posted - 2007.11.24 23:53:00 - [17] Edited by: Liv Forever on 24/11/2007 23:54:52 Edited by: Liv Forever on 24/11/2007 23:54:11 Edited by: Liv Forever on 24/11/2007 23:53:26 Yes Crumple I would prefer they stop it on principle. I would pay more per month if revenue is the concern. They have a good game and this aspect spoils it. Blizzard don't do it and they have the highest revenue game of all MMO with 9 million subscribers. They don't need to do it to make money. Imo this game is as good as WOW and suit some ppls playing style more. So, yes they should stop it on principle.
Tortun Nahme Minmatar Heimatar Services Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.11.24 23:54:00 - [18] CCP also condones thinking, I suggest you try it from tiem to time Originally by: Cecil Montague They should change that warning on entering low sec to: "Go read Crime and Punishment for a few days then come back."
Paulo Damarr	Posted - 2007.11.24 23:54:00 - [19] Edited by: Paulo Damarr on 24/11/2007 23:56:01 Feel the power of the <Enter> key!! Originally by: Tortun Nahme CCP also condones thinking, I suggest you try it from tiem to time This goes on my sig Originally by: Tortun Nahme CCP also condones thinking, I suggest you try it from tiem to time
Kenneth McCoy Vale Heavy Industries Molotov Coalition	Posted - 2007.11.24 23:55:00 - [20] Nothing in life is truly fair. Is it fair that... oh, lets see... say you have a 18 year old dude, lives at home with his parents, doesn't have much responsibility. So he plays EVE a lot. All day long, in fact. Why is it ok for him to get to play more than me. I have a job, and I might only get to play a couple hours a day a couple days a week. Is that fair? It certainly gives him an ingame advantage, does it not? Say we're both miners. He's getting to mine way more than me, due to circumstances outside the game world. By the logic of the OP, we may as well assign a ***** time limit on the log in time of an account, or something like that, to ensure everyone gets just the right amount of play time. Stop ing in the wind because some people sell a few gtc's here and there. Just take more satisfaction when you kill them, cause your causing them to lose money in real life. People will buy isk, if they want to. CCP is making a good business decision in giving people a legal alternative to do so. Good business decisions mean continued operation. You DO want to keep playing EVE, right? If you didn't, you wouldn't be *ing about this ** on here, wasting everyones time. My opinions and views are not the official views of my Corp.
Tortun Nahme Minmatar Heimatar Services Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.11.24 23:57:00 - [21] Originally by: Paulo Damarr Edited by: Paulo Damarr on 24/11/2007 23:56:01 Feel the power of the <Enter> key!! Originally by: Tortun Nahme CCP also condones thinking, I suggest you try it from tiem to time This goes on my sig aw crud, just noticed I misspelled time lol Originally by: Cecil Montague They should change that warning on entering low sec to: "Go read Crime and Punishment for a few days then come back."
Liv Forever	Posted - 2007.11.24 23:59:00 - [22] CCP also condones thinking, I suggest you try it from tiem to time-Tortun Most ppls arguments have been thoughful and intelligent. This was clearly not your finest moment Tortun and you should take your own advice. Btw if this was your finest moment then play less computer games and go back to school. :)
Tortun Nahme Minmatar Heimatar Services Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.11.25 00:00:00 - [23] Buahaha you have been forum podded, now gb2wow Originally by: Cecil Montague They should change that warning on entering low sec to: "Go read Crime and Punishment for a few days then come back."
Valan Genco Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.11.25 00:00:00 - [24] Out of interest I wonder if CCP are reconsidering the GTC thing in light of the arrests in the Netherlands for online theft. A virtual item was bought with RL money. It was then stolen. So the police stepped in. CCP have officially placed an RL value on a virtual item with GTCs. No official GTC support means no official exchange rate and therefore undermining the link between RL and virtual theft. /start sig I love old characters that post 'I've beeen playing the game four years' when I know their account has been sold on. /end sig
Kenneth McCoy Vale Heavy Industries Molotov Coalition	Posted - 2007.11.25 00:01:00 - [25] And now your attacking another person on an honest typo, insinuating he lacks intelligence and telling him to go back to school. Nice. My opinions and views are not the official views of my Corp.
Tortun Nahme Minmatar Heimatar Services Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.11.25 00:03:00 - [26] Edited by: Tortun Nahme on 25/11/2007 00:03:44 Originally by: Valan Out of interest I wonder if CCP are reconsidering the GTC thing in light of the arrests in the Netherlands for online theft. A virtual item was bought with RL money. It was then stolen. So the police stepped in. CCP have officially placed an RL value on a virtual item with GTCs. No official GTC support means no official exchange rate and therefore undermining the link between RL and virtual theft. just to point otu that this post is uninformed, peoples LOGIN INFORMATION was stolen, and the people arrested were charged with FRAUD not theft edit: and I still cant spellell, beign awake for 18 consecutive hours is baaaaaaaaaaad Originally by: Cecil Montague They should change that warning on entering low sec to: "Go read Crime and Punishment for a few days then come back."
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2007.11.25 00:05:00 - [27] Originally by: Liv Forever Yes Crumple I would prefer they stop it on principle. I would pay more per month if revenue is the concern. They have a good game and this aspect spoils it. Blizzard don't do it and they have the highest revenue game of all MMO with 9 million subscribers. They don't need to do it to make money. Imo this game is as good as WOW and suit some ppls playing style more. So, yes they should stop it on principle. I don't think they really depend on it too much as a revenue stream - I meant more in principle, that if somebody is going to be getting money from ISK buying, that somebody might as well be CCP. - I wish I was a three foot female doll with a watering can and heterochromatic eyes.
Lazuran Gallente Time And ISK Sink Corporation	Posted - 2007.11.25 00:14:00 - [28] It's sad, but that's how it is ... EVE is a semi-RMT game. You can feel free to doubt the following claims, but most people will know that they are facts: - most supercap owners in EVE bought their supercaps with RL money (through illegal or legal ISK purchases) - several famous PVP corps replace their losses with RL money - many, many T2 BPO owners invested RL money to buy their BPOs In the end, most people who are considered very successful in EVE, bought their way ahead with RL money (very few exceptions unfortunately). If you can live with these facts, then EVE is for you. Otherwise, you might want to reconsider... "...been designed for one purpose and one purpose only. Imagine a handful of repair drones pouring from the carebear's mouth. Now imagine they have um, nothing." -Unknown Hel redesigner (2007)
Cailais Amarr W A R	Posted - 2007.11.25 00:16:00 - [29] In order for it to be cheating, you need to be able to 'win'. Please could the OP define the 'win' conditions for EVE online. C. Originally by: Jenny Spitfire Dehumanisation - griefers are cool and if you are not a griefer, you do not belong here.
Malcanis High4Life SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2007.11.25 00:19:00 - [30] Originally by: Liv Forever Edited by: Liv Forever on 24/11/2007 23:09:58 First of all, money is power in EVE. Buying your way to power while others slowly and surely play their way towards the top (within the rules!) with their fists clenched and a mad glint in their eyes, is cheating. Plain and simple. EVE is intended to be a level playground where people either make it or not based solely on their abilities and hard work INSIDE EVE, not outside of it. It should not matter whether you are a rich man or a poor man in the real world. Once you enter the magnificent world of EVE Online, all that should matter is how well you put your abilities to use in the game and the thickness of oneÆs real world wallet should not be used to tip the balance-quoted from EVE insider So why does CCP allow ppl to sell GTC for ISK-that uses real life money to buy in game currency. Ppl r not making money through hard work INSIDE EVE. I have only been playing this game 5 days and I know others have posted on this but I haven't seen an official response yet. I think that it is disgusting and hypocritical and ruins the PVE aspect of EVE completely. I am thinking of cancelling my subscription given that it debases such a massive part of the game. Why would i bother mining for hours and hours a day when i can work 15 minutes irl for the same reward. CCP PLEASE STOP FACILITATING PPL CHEATING. I would like an official response please-or to be directed to one. On the one hand, I don't like it much either. On the other hand, I have several good friends in the game who would not be able to play without GTCs being sold. Basically people can buy ISK anyway; at least this way (1) CCP get the money rather than some sweatshop owner and (2) other people can play for free, increasing the number of people in the game. 2 - 5 evenings spent ratting or mining or missioning will get you enough ISK to play for 90 days. On the other hand selling enough GTC to get a fitted carrier or a Machariel would probably cost about $150-200, and people who buy their way into cap or faction ships usually come to grief in them very quickly. Occasionally, they come to the forums to cry about it, providing a rich source of entertainment for the community. In my perfect world GTC sales wouldn't happen. In the real world, I accept that they're the least worst alternative. And as said above, at the end of the day CCP get to define what "cheating" is. CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that.
Freya Runestone Minmatar Brutor tribe	Posted - 2007.11.25 00:19:00 - [31] CCP doesn't support cheating. It's not against any rules, so it isn't cheating, and that really is the end of the argument. There are a lot of player who are happy that they can buy game time for ingame ISK. Play a game they really enjoy for free. And CCP gets the subscription money anyway. everybody wins. Besides, if they make this illegal. some people will stop playing because they don't want to spend the money. less game cards get sold. The people who really want to convert real life currency to ingame currency will find a way to do so. so doing it this way is an advantage for everybody __________________________________ need a new sig :(
BubbaZanetti	Posted - 2007.11.25 00:21:00 - [32] Originally by: Liv Forever buyers are pathetic and I can play my own way- as some of you have said. It's just a pity that CCP facilitates it and that's why i wanted dev response. Not because I'm being*****y or arrogant. Please go diaf. If you would prefer an even playing field, where real life has no effect on anyone's standing in the game, then we'll all need to limit our play time to whoever can play the least amount of time per week. After all, it's not fair that by people having more time to play than me, they can make more money than me in the game. That would be bringing real life advantages into it. Also, no one is allowed to have multiple accounts anymore. If some people can't afford it, then no one should be allowed. Further, all this skill progression has to go. After all, it's not fair that someone found the game two or three years before I did, and has more skill points than me because of it. Circumstances in real life shouldn't affect gameplay at all. Yeah... Right...
Malcanis High4Life SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2007.11.25 00:21:00 - [33] Originally by: Liv Forever Edited by: Liv Forever on 24/11/2007 23:21:44 Edited by: Liv Forever on 24/11/2007 23:21:15 Thanks for the intelligent replies. Interestingly nothing official yet. If i were them I would be to embarrassed, hypocritical or contradicted to say anything either. I mean really they can't have a valid argument that doesnt't sound like bs. Can they? BTW note that GTC-for-ISK sales are strictly between players. CCP do not sell ISK. This is an important difference. CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that.
Jonny JoJo	Posted - 2007.11.25 00:23:00 - [34] Hang on Some guy spending 500 bucks on GTC's is "cheating". What if the same guy uses the same money to buy multiple subcriptions and afk the accounts while they collect datacores? That is exactly the same thing What about the person who uses a 2nd account to haul his ore, just so he can avoid having to do it with 1 account? Again, use of extra cash for money. Is this cheating? This GTC thing is actually quite intresting. It brings in a lot of poor people who could not afford to ever play this game, and helps to destroy isk farmers.
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2007.11.25 00:27:00 - [35] Originally by: Jonny JoJo Hang on Some guy spending 500 bucks on GTC's is "cheating". What if the same guy uses the same money to buy multiple subcriptions and afk the accounts while they collect datacores? That is exactly the same thing What about the person who uses a 2nd account to haul his ore, just so he can avoid having to do it with 1 account? Again, use of extra cash for money. Is this cheating? This GTC thing is actually quite intresting. It brings in a lot of poor people who could not afford to ever play this game, and helps to destroy isk farmers. At least if you use alts you are putting in more work (e.g., being both the miner and hauler at the same time). With ISK buying someone unconnected to you puts in the effort and you simply, well, buy the ISK. I'm not disagreeing with you really, the two are similar, but I think multi-accounting is somewhat more 'virtuous' since you at least put in the extra work yourself. - I wish I was a three foot female doll with a watering can and heterochromatic eyes.
Malcanis High4Life SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2007.11.25 00:29:00 - [36] Originally by: BubbaZanetti Originally by: Liv Forever buyers are pathetic and I can play my own way- as some of you have said. It's just a pity that CCP facilitates it and that's why i wanted dev response. Not because I'm being****y or arrogant. Please go diaf. If you would prefer an even playing field, where real life has no effect on anyone's standing in the game, then we'll all need to limit our play time to whoever can play the least amount of time per week. After all, it's not fair that by people having more time to play than me, they can make more money than me in the game. That would be bringing real life advantages into it. Also, no one is allowed to have multiple accounts anymore. If some people can't afford it, then no one should be allowed. Further, all this skill progression has to go. After all, it's not fair that someone found the game two or three years before I did, and has more skill points than me because of it. Circumstances in real life shouldn't affect gameplay at all. Yeah... Right... Eh, well, having more than one account isn't quite* the same as buying ISK, but I can see how it could be compared for the purposes of this argument. I don't think we need to go into that line of argument here. Basically as long as GTC sales aren't abused they're not really a problem. Busy guy who likes to pewpew but only get a few hours a week to play EvE buys a couple of 30-days to pay for a new BS? Not really a problem. Dude who buys $5000 of GTCs to buy an officer fitted Mom? Tbh even that's not a problem - he probably won't last very long. Dude who buys $10000 of GTCs to fund an entire alliance war? OK now this could start to be a problem. How often does this happen? I'll guess "not very". CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that.
Liv Forever	Posted - 2007.11.25 00:29:00 - [37] Edited by: Liv Forever on 25/11/2007 00:31:32 Lazuran-that is a good point-u say Eve is a RMT game. Well,perhaps we could get an official response there. If Eve is a RMT game then it changes everything. I remember reading about a Japanese viking game where ppl bought ships with rl money. That was part of the game. So if Eve is intended to be a RMT lets get the devs to state this so we know what we're in for. Otherwise stop making it one and stop b%$^ Sh%&%^& in EVE insider as i quoted in the OP
Stakhanov The Good Fellas	Posted - 2007.11.25 00:32:00 - [38] Basically , CCP's stance and PR towards the issue is : BUYING ISK BAD ! but trading GTCs is ok
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2007.11.25 00:33:00 - [39] Originally by: Liv Forever Lazuran-that is a good point-u say Eve is a RMT game. Well,perhaps we could get an officail response there. If Ev is a RMT game then it changes everything. I remember reading about a Japanese viking game where ppl bought ships with rl money. that was part of the game. So if Eve is intended to be a RMT lets get the devs to state this so we know what we;re in for. Otherwise stop making it one and stop b%$^ Sh%&%^& in EVE insider as i quoted in the OP RMT is unavoidable, not intended. And it doesn't change much of anything. EVE is too diverse and dynamic a system for simple ISK redistribution to have a significant impact on your gameplay. Unless you actually encounter the person directly, it will not have any effect on your gameplay. - I wish I was a three foot female doll with a watering can and heterochromatic eyes.
Liv Forever	Posted - 2007.11.25 00:33:00 - [40] Edited by: Liv Forever on 25/11/2007 00:33:40 Originally by: Malcanis Originally by: Liv Forever Edited by: Liv Forever on 24/11/2007 23:21:44 Edited by: Liv Forever on 24/11/2007 23:21:15 Thanks for the intelligent replies. Interestingly nothing official yet. If i were them I would be to embarrassed, hypocritical or contradicted to say anything either. I mean really they can't have a valid argument that doesnt't sound like bs. Can they? BTW note that GTC-for-ISK sales are strictly between players. CCP do not sell ISK. This is an important difference. that's why i used the words 'facilitate' and 'condone'
Cpt Fina Mutually Assured Distraction	Posted - 2007.11.25 00:39:00 - [41] Originally by: Crumplecorn Originally by: Cpt Fina Legalizing something just because you can't effectively stop it? Nice logic. Would you prefer that CCP tried to stop it on principle, knowing that all they would achieve is cutting off this revenue stream? Yes, I would like them to try to stop all cash <-> ISK transactions even tho they may do a ****ty job. It would be a step in the right direction of balancing the game.
Setana Manoro Gallente Firefly Inc.	Posted - 2007.11.25 00:40:00 - [42] Originally by: Lazuran It's sad, but that's how it is ... EVE is a semi-RMT game. You can feel free to doubt the following claims, but most people will know that they are facts: - most supercap owners in EVE bought their supercaps with RL money (through illegal or legal ISK purchases) - several famous PVP corps replace their losses with RL money - many, many T2 BPO owners invested RL money to buy their BPOs In the end, most people who are considered very successful in EVE, bought their way ahead with RL money (very few exceptions unfortunately). If you can live with these facts, then EVE is for you. Otherwise, you might want to reconsider... Proof or STFU. Really, post some fracking proof or just go back into the hole you came from after the idiotic thing you just said. Just because someone knows the game better than you, and has more play time available which allows him to make 10b+ / month with ease does not mean he used/would use his RL money to do it. Rifter is not X-Wing CCP. Trinity model kinda sucks.
Kenneth McCoy Vale Heavy Industries Molotov Coalition	Posted - 2007.11.25 00:41:00 - [43] You're not going to get a dev response. It's just not a problem in their eyes. And from the looks of it, you're fairly outnumbered in opinions here. One of the guys made an excellent point a few posts up, it's only really going to be a problem if someone drops hundreds, thousands of dollars to fund a course of action that significantly changes the course of the game. I'm willing to bet that doesn't happen all too often. And besides, it's been made very clear to us that EVE is not a solo game. No ONE person should be able to make a huge impact, no matter how much money he has. SO WHAT if some rich ******* buys enough money to buy and pimp a faction battleship. They can be taken down with two, or three, normal battleships. A single person CAN'T buy a titan, they need to have extensive ingame contacts. If they do that have, and still buy a titan... well hell, how many titans are being shot down these days? My point is, who cares if someone has theoretically endless amounts of money. It doesn't really affect all of us. It's possible moral downsides do not outweigh the real tangible benefits, and therefor, it will..not..change. So get over yourself. My opinions and views are not the official views of my Corp.
Tortun Nahme Minmatar Heimatar Services Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.11.25 00:41:00 - [44] yawn the thread was lost on the first page, give me some more ammunition or crawl back into your holes before I fall asleep Originally by: Cecil Montague They should change that warning on entering low sec to: "Go read Crime and Punishment for a few days then come back."
Plutoinum German Cyberdome Corp Cult of War	Posted - 2007.11.25 00:45:00 - [45] Originally by: Valan Out of interest I wonder if CCP are reconsidering the GTC thing in light of the arrests in the Netherlands for online theft. Hmm, you can't buy isk for money. You can buy gametime for money. You can give the gametime to someone else in exchange for some of the isk in that guys wallet that nevertheless will always stay CCP's property like all other virtual items, no matter on which character they currently are. So actually you can't buy isk in EVE 'legally', because they stay property of CCP. You can only pay someone with gametime to transfer some of the wallet in his characters wallet to you and let you play with those still CCP'owned isk. My conclusion: You pay for a player service with gametime, the service being transferring some (ccp-owned) isk in your wallet to someone else to play with them. A legal part of playing with those (ccp-owned isk) is e.g. trying to obtain someoneelse's isk by trying to scam him or by just stealing them. Besides that there is no legal way to convert isk back to real currency, which fits perfectly to my interpretation. P.S.: I'm not a lawyer, but that would be my argumentation. If that issue isn't clear to the customer, I'd integrate it in the rules.
Setana Manoro Gallente Firefly Inc.	Posted - 2007.11.25 00:45:00 - [46] Originally by: Liv Forever Edited by: Liv Forever on 24/11/2007 23:09:58 First of all, money is power in EVE. Buying your way to power while others slowly and surely play their way towards the top (within the rules!) with their fists clenched and a mad glint in their eyes, is cheating. Plain and simple. EVE is intended to be a level playground where people either make it or not based solely on their abilities and hard work INSIDE EVE, not outside of it. It should not matter whether you are a rich man or a poor man in the real world. Once you enter the magnificent world of EVE Online, all that should matter is how well you put your abilities to use in the game and the thickness of oneÆs real world wallet should not be used to tip the balance-quoted from EVE insider So why does CCP allow ppl to sell GTC for ISK-that uses real life money to buy in game currency. Ppl r not making money through hard work INSIDE EVE. I have only been playing this game 5 days and I know others have posted on this but I haven't seen an official response yet. I think that it is disgusting and hypocritical and ruins the PVE aspect of EVE completely. I am thinking of cancelling my subscription given that it debases such a massive part of the game. Why would i bother mining for hours and hours a day when i can work 15 minutes irl for the same reward. CCP PLEASE STOP FACILITATING PPL CHEATING. I would like an official response please-or to be directed to one. You've started this thread saying your a noob of 5d. Ok. Now what you said is a generalization that can only be made if you have been playing for some time and know concrete cases. Now i know you are not a noob. You are just some player, who decided to play the shocked noob card, too afraid to post with any of your other characters. As for as I am concerned you are a flamer, and this thread should be closed down. Rifter is not X-Wing CCP. Trinity model kinda sucks.
Paulo Damarr	Posted - 2007.11.25 00:53:00 - [47] Originally by: Liv Forever ... ruins the PVE aspect of EVE completely. What the hell have missions and ratting got to do with the issue anyway? Originally by: Tortun Nahme CCP also condones thinking, I suggest you try it from tiem to time
Malcanis High4Life SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2007.11.25 00:54:00 - [48] Originally by: Liv Forever Edited by: Liv Forever on 25/11/2007 00:33:40 Originally by: Malcanis Originally by: Liv Forever Edited by: Liv Forever on 24/11/2007 23:21:44 Edited by: Liv Forever on 24/11/2007 23:21:15 Thanks for the intelligent replies. Interestingly nothing official yet. If i were them I would be to embarrassed, hypocritical or contradicted to say anything either. I mean really they can't have a valid argument that doesnt't sound like bs. Can they? BTW note that GTC-for-ISK sales are strictly between players. CCP do not sell ISK. This is an important difference. that's why i used the words 'facilitate' and 'condone' Well I already said I don't like GTC for ISK, but that I acceptit. it's one of those issues, where not matter what you do, it's at least partly wrong. I freely admit that I argued bitterly against it in the past based on pretty much the same principles that you're expounding. However, having played the game for longer, I've come to realise something important: It doesn't really affect me I don't feel significantly disadvantaged buy GTC sellers. I run a great corp with some fantastic members, I make enough ISK to fly the ships I have fun flying, I'm in an alliance which almost perfectly suits me, and I just don't care that some people sell GTCs to officer-fit the mission-running CNR. Back when 50M ISk was an unbelievable amount of money to me, I felt pretty strongly about GTC sales. Now I can pull in 100M in a couple of hours, and tbh, I just don't care as much. It's like when people cry and pull their hair out and hold their breath because Race 'A' has a better BC than Race 'B'. Yes, in theory balance should be perfect. In practice, I'm aware that this is impossible and (just) mature enough to accept it even when this disadvantages me. So allow me to repeat: I don't like GTC for ISK, but I acceptit. Every alternative to GTC sales is worse than the problem. Ban it? Then people will get scammed for RMT, and ISK farmers will proliferate even more. And a large number of people who currently play won't be able to. Yeah great solution mate: CCP's income drops, the player-base drops, farmers proliferate. If you want a real-world analogy, look what happened in the Prohibition: alcohol consumption increased and there were gangs of criminals shooting the place up as well. Great result. So if you want to stop GTC sales, you have to come up with an alternative that allows (1) People without much money to continue playing (2) Does not increase the demand for RMT ISK (3) Does not reduce CCP's cashflow. If you have this solution I, and I'm sure CCP as well, are all ears. CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that.
pain supplier Amarr	Posted - 2007.11.25 00:55:00 - [49] flame bait post. Let pepole pay/buy gtc it is much better than the consequenxes of not having the GTC - Farmers and you dont have to pay r/l cash for a really good game. I agree this should be locked for the reasons posted above.
Kerfira	Posted - 2007.11.25 00:55:00 - [50] Edited by: Kerfira on 25/11/2007 00:55:42 Amazing how long people keep beating dead horses..... While GTC sales aren't my cup of tea, having them solves more problems than they cause. 1. I puts a ceiling to the price ISK-farmers can charge for their ill-gotten gains. 2. It enables people to play who couldn't otherwise afford it. More players is good. 3. It enables people to play who couldn't be arsed grinding, but who likes to PvP. Whether you call that cheating or not, it means more players which is good. 4. Having a safe method for doing the exchange means less players get scammed. If GTC sales hadn't been condoned by CCP, guess what! It would have happened anyway! The OP can wish as much as he wants for the perfect world of Blizard's WoW (awfully crappy game, btw), but they do have REALLY big problems with gold farming and selling which are much less in EVE. All in all, the OP's arguments are silly (unless one lives in a perfect universe), and one could almost think he was an ISK-seller desperate to get his prices up.... And as for the argument that most supercaps has been bought for GTC money I know quite a few supercap owners, and ALL of them are either built from T2 BPO money, from corp/alliance money, or by very successful (and hardworking) builders/traders. A lot of it is 'old' money too, from the time when T2 BPO's REALLY made money! Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
Tacitus Krekt The Phoenix Rising FreeFall Securities	Posted - 2007.11.25 00:55:00 - [51] Edited by: Tacitus Krekt on 25/11/2007 00:56:37 It doesn't annoy me. Why? The answer is quite simple. I play EVE because of the challenge. When I am able to overcome challenge without outside means, and play the game as is -- I find enjoyment. Whatever means I have of obtaining ISK in game is my own. Furthermore, the ships that I am able to purchase and field with the ISK that I gain further perpetuates that feeling of self accomplishment. Now if I were to go and blow $200 buying GTC's to sell for in game ISK -- I would be able to deck out quite a few ships, as well as purchase more than I currently need. However, I don't gain that "feeling" of self accomplishment. Granted, via real life means I furthered my wallet in EVE -- but in retrospect I am not playing the game and having the fun that self accomplishment brings. Am I mad that people spend money to further their wallet in EVE? No. Why should I be? They aren't ruining MY experieince, rather, they're ruining THEIRS. What someone else does with their time and money is NONE of my business. You do what floats your boat, not worry how other are floating theirs. Spelling/grammar
Liv Forever	Posted - 2007.11.25 00:58:00 - [52] Edited by: Liv Forever on 25/11/2007 01:02:53 Lol Setana, i have been playing since Wednesday and now it is Sunday-that is 5 days. I do not have to have played a long time to see something that seems unfair. Some of the arguments that people have made from experience make sense to me and I am thinking about them-such as the real impact of ISK buying etc and how it's impact is less than i supposed. However trust me I am noob and not flaming-that's y i got annoyed by the mindless insults of kenneth and tortun who at 1st decided to make no intelligent argument and just abuse me-they have started to try to justify more now which is great most ppl who have posted r against it but have resigned themselves to it happening and believe that CCP won't stop so they have had to rationalise it. But I have listened to the many thoughtful rationalisations and i am sure that i will do the same thing as i become more experienced :P and y would i not flame-think of it this way Being famous on the forums is like being famous in xxx movies-you may be famous but you're still in xxx movies!
Tortun Nahme Minmatar Heimatar Services Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.11.25 01:02:00 - [53] aww we hurt the wickle noobs feewings wif our meanness Originally by: Cecil Montague They should change that warning on entering low sec to: "Go read Crime and Punishment for a few days then come back."
Malcanis High4Life SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2007.11.25 01:03:00 - [54] Originally by: Tortun Nahme aww we hurt the wickle noobs feewings wif our meanness If she thinks this is bad, wait till she hits lo-sec CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that.
Setana Manoro Gallente Firefly Inc.	Posted - 2007.11.25 01:04:00 - [55] Originally by: Liv Forever Lol Setana, i have been playing since Wednesday and now it is Sunday-that is 5 days. I do not have to have played a long time to see something that seems unfair. Some of the arguments that people have made from experience make sense to me and I am thinking about them-such as the real impact of ISK buying etc and how it's impact is less than i supposed. However trust me I am noob and not flaming-that;s y i got annoyed by the mindless insults of kenneth and tortun who at 1st decided to make no intelligent argument and just abuse me-they ahve started to try to justify more now which is great most ppl who have posted r against it but have resigned themselves to it happening and believe that CCP won't stop so they have had to rationalise it. But I have listened to the many thoughtful rationalisations and i am sure that i will do the same thing as i become more experienced :P and y would i not flame-think of it this way Being famous on the forums is like being famous in **-you may be famous but you're still in **! Ok, if you have been playing for 5d then you do not know the game and you do not know the implications of these transations and why are they done, then your responses in this thread have all been to grab attention to yourself, and this should be locked. PS: You were given those responses because you put forward affirmations that cannot be made from a 5d gaming experience. You were also given those responses because you are a npc corp alt, because such alts are used to post on the forums to not show the main, and because others have done so before you. PPS: You have listened to no rational responses. There are a few on the 1st page. You respond only to those that give even a hint of "you are wrong/ it is too early for you to judge/think it out for yourself". Like you do now. Rifter is not X-Wing CCP. Trinity model kinda sucks.
Liv Forever	Posted - 2007.11.25 01:04:00 - [56] Edited by: Liv Forever on 25/11/2007 01:04:19 lol tortun ur so sad also by all means close post but not surpsisingly did't get official response.
Tortun Nahme Minmatar Heimatar Services Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.11.25 01:05:00 - [57] holy CRUD it just hit me! bad english, incoherent posts THIS IS AN ISK SELLER WHINE THREAD ABOUT GTC SALES CUTTING INTO PROFITS Originally by: Cecil Montague They should change that warning on entering low sec to: "Go read Crime and Punishment for a few days then come back."
Kenneth McCoy Vale Heavy Industries Molotov Coalition	Posted - 2007.11.25 01:08:00 - [58] Originally by: Tortun Nahme aww we hurt the wickle noobs feewings wif our meanness high fives My opinions and views are not the official views of my Corp.
Liv Forever	Posted - 2007.11.25 01:09:00 - [59] Edited by: Liv Forever on 25/11/2007 01:11:23 Edited by: Liv Forever on 25/11/2007 01:11:01 Edited by: Liv Forever on 25/11/2007 01:10:49 Edited by: Liv Forever on 25/11/2007 01:10:32 Setana I made the post because all MMOs rely heavily on an underlying philosphy to support them-it's what gives players a feeling of immersion and makes them different from FPS games or RTS. I was interested in what underlying ethos and philosophy is predominant in this game so that I can better immerse myself in it. I have been impressed by most peoples thoughtfulness and maturity. (apart from the 2 12yr olds i mentioned earlier) So thanks for the ideas-I'm happy for the post to be closed although disappointed at no official response as after all CCP has a big impact on the underlying ethos of this game. I don't want to be famous on forums as I explained in my last post lol Beng famous on forums is like being famous in xxx movies-you might be famous but ur still in xxx movies
Tortun Nahme Minmatar Heimatar Services Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.11.25 01:11:00 - [60] the hypocricy is delicious Originally by: Cecil Montague They should change that warning on entering low sec to: "Go read Crime and Punishment for a few days then come back."
Setana Manoro Gallente Firefly Inc.	Posted - 2007.11.25 01:11:00 - [61] Originally by: Malcanis Originally by: Liv Forever Edited by: Liv Forever on 25/11/2007 01:02:53 Lol Setana, i have been playing since Wednesday and now it is Sunday-that is 5 days. I do not have to have played a long time to see something that seems unfair. Some of the arguments that people have made from experience make sense to me and I am thinking about them-such as the real impact of ISK buying etc and how it's impact is less than i supposed. However trust me I am noob and not flaming-that's y i got annoyed by the mindless insults of kenneth and tortun who at 1st decided to make no intelligent argument and just abuse me-they have started to try to justify more now which is great most ppl who have posted r against it but have resigned themselves to it happening and believe that CCP won't stop so they have had to rationalise it. But I have listened to the many thoughtful rationalisations and i am sure that i will do the same thing as i become more experienced :P and y would i not flame-think of it this way Being famous on the forums is like being famous in xxx movies-you may be famous but you're still in xxx movies! Actually, I have some good news for you. There's an alliance which is specifically for people who don't like ISK-farmers and macroers. Since you're against GTC sales, I assume that you find RMT ISK buying even more abhorrent, since it has none of the mitigating factors of GTC selling. Search out the United Corporations Against Macros alliance. They'll train new characters such as yourself to hunt out farmers and macroers (no doubt some of whom are used to fund GTC purchases, if that's important to you). I've sent a few donations and a little Intel their way on occasion, and they seem like a cool bunch. You could do worse than start your eve career with them. You've found your villains, mate. Congrats: your story can start here. They are a good bunch of guys, they know what they are doing and they can adapt to the changes. :) Rifter is not X-Wing CCP. Trinity model kinda sucks.
Liv Forever	Posted - 2007.11.25 01:13:00 - [62] thanks Setana
Cpt Fina Mutually Assured Distraction	Posted - 2007.11.25 01:14:00 - [63] Originally by: Liv Forever Some of the arguments that people have made from experience make sense to me and I am thinking about them-such as the real impact of ISK buying etc and how it's impact is less than i supposed. Depends on what a "real impact" is. Will GTC however have a real impact on your game-experience the day you loose your hard earned navy mega to a guy who afforded a domination scrambler instead of a T2? Will GTC have a real impact on your 10 man corp when your enemies and can sustain war for another few weeks/months by buying a few GTCs. Will GTC have an impact on your gameplay when a competing trader can afford to buy a stack of items that he would have to save for a few weeks to do otherwise, before you? Is GTC bringing Eve to its downfall? No most certainly not. Would T20's continued favours for BoB bring EvE to its downfall? No most certainly not. That said it's still a major imbalance imo.
Malcanis High4Life SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2007.11.25 01:25:00 - [64] Originally by: Cpt Fina Originally by: Liv Forever Some of the arguments that people have made from experience make sense to me and I am thinking about them-such as the real impact of ISK buying etc and how it's impact is less than i supposed. Depends on what a "real impact" is. Will GTC however have a real impact on your game-experience the day you loose your hard earned navy mega to a guy who afforded a domination scrambler instead of a T2? Will GTC have a real impact on your 10 man corp when your enemies and can sustain war for another few weeks/months by buying a few GTCs. Will GTC have an impact on your gameplay when a competing trader can afford to buy a stack of items that he would have to save for a few weeks to do otherwise, before you? Is GTC bringing Eve to its downfall? No most certainly not. Would T20's continued favours for BoB bring EvE to its downfall? No most certainly not. That said it's still a major imbalance imo. I'd dispute "major". Given that there's a finite demand for GTCs, there's a limit to how much imbalancing can be done by them. I could buy 50,000 90-days, but I wouldn't get 400M each for them if I did (Oveur would get his Porsche though). A few GTCs can provide a single player with a relatively large short-term advantage, but on a corp level, the effect is much diluted. On an alliance level, almost intangible. People who are self-centered enough to "cheat" with GTCs are probably too selfish to help their whole alliance anyway. They'll ensure that they themselves have the faction fit BS, but buying ships for the whole fleet? Seems less likely somehow. CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that.
Tortun Nahme Minmatar Heimatar Services Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.11.25 01:37:00 - [65] I call BS on that, all my GTC sales and the single character sale profits have gone towards my corp Originally by: Cecil Montague They should change that warning on entering low sec to: "Go read Crime and Punishment for a few days then come back."
Cpt Fina Mutually Assured Distraction	Posted - 2007.11.25 01:40:00 - [66] Originally by: Malcanis Originally by: Cpt Fina Originally by: Liv Forever Some of the arguments that people have made from experience make sense to me and I am thinking about them-such as the real impact of ISK buying etc and how it's impact is less than i supposed. Depends on what a "real impact" is. Will GTC however have a real impact on your game-experience the day you loose your hard earned navy mega to a guy who afforded a domination scrambler instead of a T2? Will GTC have a real impact on your 10 man corp when your enemies and can sustain war for another few weeks/months by buying a few GTCs. Will GTC have an impact on your gameplay when a competing trader can afford to buy a stack of items that he would have to save for a few weeks to do otherwise, before you? Is GTC bringing Eve to its downfall? No most certainly not. Would T20's continued favours for BoB bring EvE to its downfall? No most certainly not. That said it's still a major imbalance imo. I'd dispute "major". Given that there's a finite demand for GTCs, there's a limit to how much imbalancing can be done by them. I could buy 50,000 90-days, but I wouldn't get 400M each for them if I did (Oveur would get his Porsche though). A few GTCs can provide a single player with a relatively large short-term advantage, but on a corp level, the effect is much diluted. On an alliance level, almost intangible. GTCs can have a quite substansial impact on smaller corps. Can't provide a link but I remember a player selling a **load of GTCs worth tens of billions. Just a few billion isk could in many cases heavily shift the outcome of small scale wars and conflicts. And even tho the impact on an alliance-scale might (there are rumors of goons funding the war partially by gtc) not be so significat, there would still be an impact nontheless. And I still think it's a major** imbalance. I wouldn't care if a GTC gave you 1 ISK instead of 400M ISK, the mere fact that someone is getting an in-game advantage by using IRL money and that it in the end could result in me loosing a ship is well enough for me to call it a major imbalance.
Kenneth McCoy Vale Heavy Industries Molotov Coalition	Posted - 2007.11.25 01:48:00 - [67] I'm not 12, try reversing those numbers. I might be a *****, but I'm coherent. Also, I think this argument is over. My opinions and views are not the official views of my Corp.

GM Nova Game Masters	Posted - 2007.11.25 01:50:00 - [68] Hi Liv Forever, welcome to EVE Online. I am sorry you have not received a dev reply, but I'll tell you why. This dead horse has been beaten so often and hard that only the fozzilized bones remain really. If you do a search for real money trade, GTC trade or ISK selling, it will return hundreds of threads with dozens of dev replies. There is no need to reply to yours, there is nothing new. Oh wait.... why am I replying? Originally by: Kerfira Edited by: Kerfira on 25/11/2007 00:57:27 Amazing how long people keep beating dead horses..... While GTC sales aren't my cup of tea, having them solves more problems than they cause. 1. I puts a ceiling to the price ISK-farmers can charge for their ill-gotten gains. 2. It enables people to play who couldn't otherwise afford it. More players is good. 3. It enables people to play who couldn't be arsed grinding, but who likes to PvP. Whether you call that cheating or not, it means more players which is good. 4. Having a safe method for doing the exchange means less players get scammed. If GTC sales hadn't been condoned by CCP, guess what! It would have happened anyway! The OP can wish as much as he wants for the perfect world of Blizard's WoW (awfully crappy game, btw), but they do have REALLY big problems with gold farming and selling which are much less in EVE. Kerfira is my new hero. What he said. And to add to that... 5. There is a limited demand for GTCs. You can't sell a million GTCs since there aren't a million buyers. So the distribution of wealth is limited by the demand. Did I say distribution of wealth? Why, Yes I did. You see, no ISK is being created out of thin air. The buyers will in most cases we hope, have earned the ISK by ingame means. So, this means that ingame wealth is being shifted arround and not injected. P.S We are discussing the official supported secure GTC trade. Any other for of GTC trade for ISK is a EULA violation.

Malcanis High4Life SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2007.11.25 02:04:00 - [69] Originally by: Cpt Fina Originally by: Malcanis Originally by: Cpt Fina Originally by: Liv Forever Some of the arguments that people have made from experience make sense to me and I am thinking about them-such as the real impact of ISK buying etc and how it's impact is less than i supposed. Depends on what a "real impact" is. Will GTC however have a real impact on your game-experience the day you loose your hard earned navy mega to a guy who afforded a domination scrambler instead of a T2? Will GTC have a real impact on your 10 man corp when your enemies and can sustain war for another few weeks/months by buying a few GTCs. Will GTC have an impact on your gameplay when a competing trader can afford to buy a stack of items that he would have to save for a few weeks to do otherwise, before you? Is GTC bringing Eve to its downfall? No most certainly not. Would T20's continued favours for BoB bring EvE to its downfall? No most certainly not. That said it's still a major imbalance imo. I'd dispute "major". Given that there's a finite demand for GTCs, there's a limit to how much imbalancing can be done by them. I could buy 50,000 90-days, but I wouldn't get 400M each for them if I did (Oveur would get his Porsche though). A few GTCs can provide a single player with a relatively large short-term advantage, but on a corp level, the effect is much diluted. On an alliance level, almost intangible. GTCs can have a quite substansial impact on smaller corps. Can't provide a link but I remember a player selling a **load of GTCs worth tens of billions. Just a few billion isk could in many cases heavily shift the outcome of small scale wars and conflicts. And even tho the impact on an alliance-scale might (there are rumors of goons funding the war partially by gtc) not be so significat, there would still be an impact nontheless. And I still think it's a major** imbalance. I wouldn't care if a GTC gave you 1 ISK instead of 400M ISK, the mere fact that someone is getting an in-game advantage by using IRL money and that it in the end could result in me loosing a ship is well enough for me to call it a major imbalance. I have some good friends in the game. I'll match them against any single player and whatever number of GTCs he cares to apply.... CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that.
cal nereus Bounty Hunter - Dark Legion Brutally Clever Empire	Posted - 2007.11.25 02:10:00 - [70] Personally, I find the idea of an "even playing field" is impossible to achieve in any large-scale game worth playing. Then again, Eve Online is the only pay-to-play MMO I've ever considered worth playing. --- Join BH-DL Skills
umop 3pisdn Minmatar Fnck the blob.	Posted - 2007.11.25 03:17:00 - [71] CCP doesnt condone cheating Not since they got caught cheating Burn in hell bob
Smakko Ad Astra Vexillum Brutally Clever Empire	Posted - 2007.11.25 03:37:00 - [72] In some games you can buy in-game currency for real money. EvE doesn't go this far, it merely facilitates a secondary market for game subscription coupons. So, they encourage people to buy more game time... which is pretty much the whole point. Seems pretty principled to me. I understand the controversy, but there have been better, more thoughtful discussions on this topic in the past. I'd appreciate it if in the future you'd keep your poorly thought out posts to yourself, especially if you plan on trolling your own thread with ad hominem attacks and bombastic demands for official replies. Also, uselessly polemical and pugnacious thread titles are annoying. I posted in this thread, got the T-Shirt.
Franga Caldari NQX Innovations Southern Cross Alliance	Posted - 2007.11.25 04:24:00 - [73] Hi Mum! Also - the obligatory 'Posting in a thread.' comment. Always a winner. _____________________________ Eldo spanked my sig but I can't be bothered changing it just now.
Franga Caldari NQX Innovations Southern Cross Alliance	Posted - 2007.11.25 04:25:00 - [74] Originally by: Smakko In some games you can buy in-game currency for real money. EvE doesn't go this far, it merely facilitates a secondary market for game subscription coupons. So, they encourage people to buy more game time... which is pretty much the whole point. Seems pretty principled to me. I understand the controversy, but there have been better, more thoughtful discussions on this topic in the past. I'd appreciate it if in the future you'd keep your poorly thought out posts to yourself, especially if you plan on trolling your own thread with ad hominem attacks and bombastic demands for official replies. Also, uselessly polemical and pugnacious thread titles are annoying. I posted in this thread, got the T-Shirt. Your sig is freaking awesome. Sciius FTL! "Come 5 regions and defend my honor you tools!" _____________________________ Eldo spanked my sig but I can't be bothered changing it just now.
Garborg Caldari	Posted - 2007.11.25 04:37:00 - [75] Having the ability to make IKS >>>> than having ISK No matter what you have or what you buy, it will eventually get blown up. The ability to make IKS is power, not the ISK itself.
Phyrr Minmatar The Gosimer and Scarab	Posted - 2007.11.25 04:50:00 - [76] some people can only play via buying gtc for isk. If CCP stopped this a huge amount of the community would drop subscriptions. This is actually a sort of RL wealth redistribution as people with RL money get more isk by selling GTC and people without much RL money get EvE:) The odds on me being here are rather slim evolutionary speaking, yet in the infinite bounds of probability my being here is a certainty.
Shakuul Caldari O RLY corp YTMND.	Posted - 2007.11.25 07:08:00 - [77] Time is money, and CCP allows some people to play as much as they can possibly sit in front of a computer screen and play, giving an unfair advantage to people who have lots of free time.
Viper G	Posted - 2007.11.25 07:32:00 - [78] Edited by: Viper G on 25/11/2007 07:34:06 Edited by: Viper G on 25/11/2007 07:33:48 The point that is being missed is all mmorpgs have cheaters. For example, tell me a mainstream mmorpg's currency that isn't listed on ebay or some other website. WOW, THERE AREN'T ANY. Case in point(s): It's impossible to stop multi-accounting. It's impossible to stop out of game money buying. In all mmorpgs. So, know that you know this, how do we make it less of a problem... That is what CCP did, they re-directed the massive amount of money (that was HAPPENING anyways and CANNOT be stopped) to them selves. Which is a good thing because now (CCP Gets more money, which means more resources, which means...duh) Not only are they reaping the benefits, they are allowing people to use their game ISK as real money to pay for their subscription. IMO, it's actually pretty cool. PS (NOW GO AND TRY TO FIND ISK ON EBAY, THERE SHOULD BE ABOUT 5000 ISK LISTTINGS, oh wow, where did they all go???? HMMM WEIRD)
Moghydin Confederation of Red Moon Red Moon Federation	Posted - 2007.11.25 07:47:00 - [79] Edited by: Moghydin on 25/11/2007 07:50:12 Well, of course absolutely fair MMORPG is a dream, but there's no such thing. Life is unfair, video games are a part of it. Is it fair that one is born into a hard working family who struggles financially and another one is a heir of some financial empire? Is it fair that one goes to some ghetto school and ends up in a gang or as a *** addict and another goes to top rate private school and graduates from Harvard School of Business? Is it fair that you've been rejected for a job and the guy who's got it is a son of the CEO's best friend? Accept it, it's much easier to accept in game than IRL if you think about it, because it's just a game after all. In my earlier days I've made flaming posts about GTCs, I was outraged. Now, I don't care that much. Yes, he can have that faction pimped battleship that I can't afford, but it will make it even sweeter when he goes down to a gang of my friends. I can buy GTC's because some GTC's aren't really an amount of money I care about. But Eve is a game, and I know that the day I feel that I absolutely HAVE TO buy GTCs is the day I quit Eve, because that day Eve will stop being just an entertainment and will turn into something else, something I don't want it to become. Btw, I think the accusation that supercap pilots bought Titans with GTC ISK is bull**, those guys are alliance leaders and for big 0.0 alliances accumulating ISK and resources for a Titan should not pose an unsurmountable challenge. When those GTC sellers can become a problem? When we are talking about mass scale operations. It can be a problem with ppl buying T2 BPOs for GTC money. And it is a major problem when the whole alliance finances its war effort from GTC sales of one or several extremely rich IRL guys. There are rumors that Goons partly financing its war effort with GTCs, but those are just rumors before any proof is presented. Press alt+F4 to reduce lag
Thaneal Swiftbird	Posted - 2007.11.25 09:01:00 - [80] Originally by: Viper G WOW, THERE AREN'T ANY. Case in point(s): It's impossible to stop multi-accounting. It's impossible to stop out of game money buying. In all mmorpgs. So, know that you know this, how do we make it less of a problem... That is wrong, even if the example I am about to give is a bit special. KRO (the original, korean branch of Ragnarok Online) has a strict "one account per person" rule. This is enforced by the necessity to give a valid korean passport ID on account creation. Now... I guess you will say "But it¦s easy to forge a passport ID!". Well, it may be. But afaik that is considered to be high-treason in korea. They have a death penalty on that. So guess how many dual accounters ther might be. As I said, a very special and singular example, but still a MMO (with a lot more subscibers then eve has) without multiple accounts. So you are proven wrong, no matter what.
Rilus	Posted - 2007.11.25 09:03:00 - [81] Originally by: Cpt Fina Legalizing something just because you can't effectively stop it? Nice logic. Isk-buyers are getting an unfair in-game advantage. 14 dollars per month will only grant you Eve-light. Perfect logic. What's illogical is to make unenforceable rules and policies. For example, to some people using guides, maps, etc for MMOs or any other game is cheating. However, it would be stupid and pointless to make a rule against it since it cannot be enforced.
Rilus	Posted - 2007.11.25 09:06:00 - [82] Originally by: Thaneal Swiftbird That is wrong, even if the example I am about to give is a bit special. KRO (the original, korean branch of Ragnarok Online) has a strict "one account per person" rule. This is enforced by the necessity to give a valid korean passport ID on account creation. Now... I guess you will say "But it¦s easy to forge a passport ID!". Well, it may be. But afaik that is considered to be high-treason in korea. They have a death penalty on that. So guess how many dual accounters ther might be. As I said, a very special and singular example, but still a MMO (with a lot more subscibers then eve has) without multiple accounts. So you are proven wrong, no matter what. You're right. Your example IS special. Unless there's some sort of global ID, CCP cannot check the "uniqueness" of accounts. Besides, even if there was, I could use my wife's ID or my father's, mother's brother's, sister-in-law's, etc. All of whom do not play this game and still have multiple accounts.
Cpt Fina Mutually Assured Distraction	Posted - 2007.11.25 09:25:00 - [83] Originally by: Rilus Originally by: Cpt Fina Legalizing something just because you can't effectively stop it? Nice logic. Isk-buyers are getting an unfair in-game advantage. 14 dollars per month will only grant you Eve-light. Perfect logic. What's illogical is to make unenforceable rules and policies. Like shoplifting? The gouvernment have a hard time stopping it and should therefor make it legal? It's a RL anology but it's the same principle.
Seizing	Posted - 2007.11.25 09:45:00 - [84] The only thing I would have to add is: I like to play Eve Online. Except, I do not have huge amounts of free time to grind away NPC's for isk or any of the other huge time investments in order to make large amounts of isk. Because of this, should I always remain uncompetative? It is just transferring "time" from one person to another. The player that is buying the time card has put in the time in the game to aquire the isk. The person selling the time cards has put in time that most of the time could not be spent inside the game because of work etc. They just change hands and everyone is happy. It does not greatly imbalance the eve universe. Granted I am sure there are a handfull of rich players that neither grind the isk in game nor put in real life work time to pay for the eve time cards, but they are a small minority.
Caine Azuris Gallente Killson Corp Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.11.25 10:00:00 - [85] Originally by: Liv Forever Edited by: Liv Forever on 24/11/2007 23:21:44 Edited by: Liv Forever on 24/11/2007 23:21:15 Thanks for the intelligent replies. Interestingly nothing official yet. If i were them I would be to embarrassed, hypocritical or contradicted to say anything either. I mean really they can't have a valid argument that doesnt't sound like bs. Can they? They dont have to justify anything to players. Although is some cases it would suit them to keep players playing. Also CCP have NOTHING to be ashamed of. 1. Selling GTC helps keep the game funded and alive, which is good becuase a lot of us like to play eve. 2. Just becuase people (myself included) sell GTC for isk doesnt make me uber, although it does when I buy a 20m SP character XD (jelous?) But usually most people buy GTC to help keep their accounts running without having to spend IRL $. 3. Yes it does affect the market somewhat if enough people do it, however so does buying/selling isk. And I bet some of the people who have ever complained about GTC buying/selling are the same people who can just buy isk stright up for a lot cheaper. And THAT hurts the game/players more than anything. So yeah call me a "newb" for buying/selling GTC but in the end I do more for this game to keep it alive than you have (for those who bash GTCommerce). <-new word I just made up, like it? And for every one person I see complaining about it, there are 30 more who want to buy my GTC's. And yeah if I seem a bit passionate about this its becuase I hate seeing people bash CCP over things like this. CCP wouldnt have made this ok if it didnt suit them or the game. ------------
Rilus	Posted - 2007.11.25 10:06:00 - [86] Edited by: Rilus on 25/11/2007 10:13:27 Originally by: Cpt Fina Originally by: Rilus Originally by: Cpt Fina Legalizing something just because you can't effectively stop it? Nice logic. Isk-buyers are getting an unfair in-game advantage. 14 dollars per month will only grant you Eve-light. Perfect logic. What's illogical is to make unenforceable rules and policies. Like shoplifting? The gouvernment have a hard time stopping it and should therefor make it legal? It's a RL anology but it's the same principle. Hard to enforce is not the same as unenforceable. As an example, Prohibition was not reasonably enforceable and they eventually rescinded it. Many other laws have been changed or removed entirely from the books because they're reasonably unenforceable. Unfortunately, many laws remain that are not enforceable simply because of people's perception that if something is illegal now, it must be inherently bad/immoral/unethical/unhealthy/etc and, therefore, should remain illegal. To answer your question: If a law is not enforceable, it should be removed.
Moghydin Confederation of Red Moon Red Moon Federation	Posted - 2007.11.25 10:29:00 - [87] Originally by: Caine Azuris Originally by: Liv Forever Edited by: Liv Forever on 24/11/2007 23:21:44 Edited by: Liv Forever on 24/11/2007 23:21:15 Thanks for the intelligent replies. Interestingly nothing official yet. If i were them I would be to embarrassed, hypocritical or contradicted to say anything either. I mean really they can't have a valid argument that doesnt't sound like bs. Can they? They dont have to justify anything to players. Although is some cases it would suit them to keep players playing. Also CCP have NOTHING to be ashamed of. 1. Selling GTC helps keep the game funded and alive, which is good becuase a lot of us like to play eve. 2. Just becuase people (myself included) sell GTC for isk doesnt make me uber, although it does when I buy a 20m SP character XD (jelous?) But usually most people buy GTC to help keep their accounts running without having to spend IRL $. 3. Yes it does affect the market somewhat if enough people do it, however so does buying/selling isk. And I bet some of the people who have ever complained about GTC buying/selling are the same people who can just buy isk stright up for a lot cheaper. And THAT hurts the game/players more than anything. So yeah call me a "newb" for buying/selling GTC but in the end I do more for this game to keep it alive than you have (for those who bash GTCommerce). <-new word I just made up, like it? And for every one person I see complaining about it, there are 30 more who want to buy my GTC's. And yeah if I seem a bit passionate about this its becuase I hate seeing people bash CCP over things like this. CCP wouldnt have made this ok if it didnt suit them or the game. How does buying 20 mill sp char make you uber? It's nothing special. I think the person who sells GTC's isn't necessarily a newb, but he surely takes the game (and his in-game ego) too seriously for a video game. Press alt+F4 to reduce lag
Caine Azuris Gallente Killson Corp Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.11.25 10:33:00 - [88] It was a joke, of course 20m SP is nothing. But according to the anti GTC guys I am. ------------
Elis Verone Minmatar Republic Military School	Posted - 2007.11.25 10:35:00 - [89] people can buy game codes..cheating it is... and people doing it is LAME.. and ccp is lame for aloving it. they should instead start doing something to the isk sellers, wich we STILL get tons of mails from promoting sites.. i even stopped petitioning it. theres simply to many.. eithermake it fully legit or do something.. gtc sellers are rich bastids who gain something all others dont.. so ccp tells the rich bastids that they can get further in the game than the hard working person who mins or rat all day to get a carier, while the gtc seller gets a mothership.. wheres thelogic in that... all saying its cool are also idiots. enough said..
Surfin's PlunderBunny Minmatar mUfFiN fAcToRy	Posted - 2007.11.25 10:37:00 - [90] And I bet everyone ***ing about the rich r/l ppl also have more than 2 accounts Originally by:** ISD Valorem The Devs have stated multiple times that they are looking at the Amarr issues. Weekly quote: "Villains always have antidotes... They're funny that way." ~The Tick
Nigel Sheldon	Posted - 2007.11.25 11:09:00 - [91] Well for me personally, i never liked the idea of buying GTC with ISK, it is cheating, however things changed when I got a major injury and now can not work and have 0 Income, so suddenly buying a GTC with ISK seems a very very tempting idea because otherwise I can't afford to play. You have to look at it from that angle as well....
Liv Forever	Posted - 2007.11.25 11:25:00 - [92] Edited by: Liv Forever on 25/11/2007 11:26:33 I'm amazed this topic is still running. Obviously a lot of ppl feel strongly about it and it's been raised a number of times. Btw Nigel, the OP is addressing buying ISK with GTC not vice versa. If CCP sell time to ppl for ISK I don't see that as cheating. It is the reverse that seems dodgy. You have earned your ISK in game and maintained the integrity of ur in-game character and its relationship to the universe of EVE. If CCP want to reward u for ur efforts by giving u subscription for your in game efforts that doesnt contradict the basic premise of the 'buying ISK is cheating' argument. I don't see a problem with buying GTC with ISK. Buying ISK with GTC is the issue
Moghydin Confederation of Red Moon Red Moon Federation	Posted - 2007.11.25 11:40:00 - [93] Originally by: Liv Forever Edited by: Liv Forever on 25/11/2007 11:26:33 I'm amazed this topic is still running. Obviously a lot of ppl feel strongly about it and it's been raised a number of times. Btw Nigel, the OP is addressing buying ISK with GTC not vice versa. If CCP sell time to ppl for ISK I don't see that as cheating. It is the reverse that seems dodgy. You have earned your ISK in game and maintained the integrity of ur in-game character and its relationship to the universe of EVE. If CCP want to reward u for ur efforts by giving u subscription for your in game efforts that doesnt contradict the basic premise of the 'buying ISK is cheating' argument. I don't see a problem with buying GTC with ISK. Buying ISK with GTC is the issue What you ask is that CCP will grant you play time directly for ISK What should they do with this ISK? Sell it all on e-bay? I don't like GTCs, but I'm not concerned about it either, they exist, so what? Someone needs to spend his RL cash to satisfy his immense in-game ego? Too bad for him. Press alt+F4 to reduce lag
Kamoze	Posted - 2007.11.25 11:42:00 - [94] Originally by: Liv Forever Edited by: Liv Forever on 25/11/2007 11:26:33 I'm amazed this topic is still running. Obviously a lot of ppl feel strongly about it and it's been raised a number of times. Btw Nigel, the OP is addressing buying ISK with GTC not vice versa. If CCP sell time to ppl for ISK I don't see that as cheating. It is the reverse that seems dodgy. You have earned your ISK in game and maintained the integrity of ur in-game character and its relationship to the universe of EVE. If CCP want to reward u for ur efforts by giving u subscription for your in game efforts that doesnt contradict the basic premise of the 'buying ISK is cheating' argument. I don't see a problem with buying GTC with ISK. Buying ISK with GTC is the issue You like to use big words, but its the little things that show you talk out of your rear-end. I'm not defending it in anyway, but if you don't like it, then why not leave? You're only 5days old? Not really a great length of time to gain any knowledge. I could goto dictionary.com and use great words, but I won't because i don't need to come across smart over the net. Either way, can i have your stuff?
Liv Forever	Posted - 2007.11.25 11:43:00 - [95] Ok -thx for all ur posts. I have read all the arguments and I have been impressed by the maturity and intelligence of the EVE community. Even got a response from an important person. Virtual life and its relationship to RL will alway pose interesting philosophical dilemmas and since it is highly likely that more people will choose to spend more time in virtual reality then I am sure we have not wasted our time debating such issues. I rly have only been playing the game for 5 days so please excuse me for flogging a dead horse. Btw I have spent most of my 5 days afk indy mining so I could read forums and generate money doing irl things :) Please keep an eye out for my new post asking for opinions on this!!!
Sergeant Spot Black Eclipse Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.11.25 11:58:00 - [96] The whole Isk sales for RL money is a convoluted and flawed situation, for which CCP has a introduced a convoluted and flawed solution. Unless you have a BETTER idea, dont be so quick to demand change. Its the same thing for a lot of RL situation, both public and private. Its the way the world works, even in on line games. Always has, always will. Its fine to state that the situation is flawed (as it truely is, and badly so....), but always be sure to SUPPORT the existing solution, flawed or not, unless you have a better one. Play nice while you butcher each other.
Liv Forever	Posted - 2007.11.25 12:14:00 - [97] Originally by: Kamoze Originally by: Liv Forever Edited by: Liv Forever on 25/11/2007 11:26:33 I'm amazed this topic is still running. Obviously a lot of ppl feel strongly about it and it's been raised a number of times. Btw Nigel, the OP is addressing buying ISK with GTC not vice versa. If CCP sell time to ppl for ISK I don't see that as cheating. It is the reverse that seems dodgy. You have earned your ISK in game and maintained the integrity of ur in-game character and its relationship to the universe of EVE. If CCP want to reward u for ur efforts by giving u subscription for your in game efforts that doesnt contradict the basic premise of the 'buying ISK is cheating' argument. I don't see a problem with buying GTC with ISK. Buying ISK with GTC is the issue You like to use big words, but its the little things that show you talk out of your rear-end. I'm not defending it in anyway, but if you don't like it, then why not leave? You're only 5days old? Not really a great length of time to gain any knowledge. I could goto dictionary.com and use great words, but I won't because i don't need to come across smart over the net. Either way, can i have your stuff? ROFL -where exactly are the big words? Are you ESL? If you find my post difficult to understand then you are clearly semi-literate (woops sorry-too big!)-i mean stupid. the largest word I can find in my post is 'integrity' and the average 13 yr old has learned that in most delveloped nations. You made no intelligent argument ( and are probably incapable of doing so) and only posted to try to put me down. It's a good job that you don't need to sound smart on the net because you never will!
Mira O'karr Minmatar Templars of Space	Posted - 2007.11.25 12:25:00 - [98] Edited by: Mira O''karr on 25/11/2007 12:26:42 Originally by: Liv Forever Edited by: Liv Forever on 24/11/2007 23:09:58 ... while others slowly and surely play their way towards the top (within the rules!) with their fists clenched and a mad glint in their eyes... and hard work INSIDE EVE... ... hard work INSIDE EVE... I have only been playing this game 5 days ... I am thinking of cancelling my subscription ... mining for hours and hours a day ... dude, way too intense. please cancel your subscription now and get a job. gtc sale allows people without money but time to play this game or run multiple accounts. it also allows people with money but no time to play or run multiple accounts. CCP makes profit = good = eve to stay around for years to come.
Liv Forever	Posted - 2007.11.25 12:31:00 - [99] Edited by: Liv Forever on 25/11/2007 12:31:48 Originally by: Mira O'karr Edited by: Mira O''karr on 25/11/2007 12:26:42 Originally by: Liv Forever Edited by: Liv Forever on 24/11/2007 23:09:58 ... while others slowly and surely play their way towards the top (within the rules!) with their fists clenched and a mad glint in their eyes... and hard work INSIDE EVE... ... hard work INSIDE EVE... I have only been playing this game 5 days ... I am thinking of cancelling my subscription ... mining for hours and hours a day ... dude, way too intense. please cancel your subscription now and get a job. gtc sale allows people without money but time to play this game or run multiple accounts. it also allows people with money but no time to play or run multiple accounts. CCP makes profit = good = eve to stay around for years to come. I didn't write this :) It's quoted from EVE insider. I've only been playing a few days so i haven't started the grind yet so I was just asking peoples opinions.
Mira O'karr Minmatar Templars of Space	Posted - 2007.11.25 12:35:00 - [100] if you quote please make these quotes visible. else i have to assume its your drivel. as it stands i hope you cancel. the last thing this game needs is another crybaby.
Caine Azuris Gallente Killson Corp Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.11.25 12:42:00 - [101] So you had enough time to find a qoute on the topic but not to research the topic itself, riiight. This right here shows that your probally just wanting attention and trying to ruffle some feathers. And yes we are ALL astounded by your monolithic words of mass proportions. If I wasent the multi-celled organism that I am I would probally call you out on your overuse of gigantic words. In any case you have your answer. ------------
Armoured C Gallente Globaltech Industries Hedonistic Imperative	Posted - 2007.11.25 12:50:00 - [102] look 5 day old noobie guy somepeople cant afford to pay the fee with RL monies so they use ingame currency nothing is lost and nothing is gained dont try and justify cheating when you only been in the game for 5 minutes >_> sucessfulness in eve isnt just about how much isk you have you could have alot of isk and still not be sucessful ingame niothing is lotst because eve still get the price in RL monies for the card they brought with ingame isk since someone else brought it and the value of it is paid back to the user it more of a trade which you obviously havent precieved go off and count your frigs
Liv Forever	Posted - 2007.11.25 12:55:00 - [103] I have made no reference to buying gametime with ISK, other than a reply to someone that I don't have a problem with it because u made the ISK in game. It is the reverse that this post was about but since all the people with 'multi cellular' brains appear to have gone to bed it should probably be closed.
Nigel Sheldon	Posted - 2007.11.25 12:56:00 - [104] i can't afford to pay for my timecards in RL cause i can't currently work at the moment, so if i have to pay someone isk for a timecard I have no problem with this, i make enough isk doing what i do in game, so don't currently mind paying someone for a GTC. make the money how you want too. If i could afford to buy amounts of GTC then i would sell tham for isk as well.......anything to get my jump freighter when it comes out ;)
Armoured C Gallente Globaltech Industries Hedonistic Imperative	Posted - 2007.11.25 12:59:00 - [105] mm jump frighter and suggestion to the noob that made this thread at least read up on forums ect and play the game before posting pointless stuff
Fanjita	Posted - 2007.11.25 13:27:00 - [106] Originally by: Liv Forever Edited by: Liv Forever on 24/11/2007 23:09:58 First of all, money is power in EVE. Buying your way to power while others slowly and surely play their way towards the top (within the rules!) with their fists clenched and a mad glint in their eyes, is cheating. Plain and simple. EVE is intended to be a level playground where people either make it or not based solely on their abilities and hard work INSIDE EVE, not outside of it. It should not matter whether you are a rich man or a poor man in the real world. Once you enter the magnificent world of EVE Online, all that should matter is how well you put your abilities to use in the game and the thickness of oneÆs real world wallet should not be used to tip the balance-quoted from EVE insider So why does CCP allow ppl to sell GTC for ISK-that uses real life money to buy in game currency. Ppl r not making money through hard work INSIDE EVE. I have only been playing this game 5 days and I know others have posted on this but I haven't seen an official response yet. I think that it is disgusting and hypocritical and ruins the PVE aspect of EVE completely. I am thinking of cancelling my subscription given that it debases such a massive part of the game. Why would i bother mining for hours and hours a day when i can work 15 minutes irl for the same reward. CCP PLEASE STOP FACILITATING PPL CHEATING. I would like an official response please-or to be directed to one. so long as ccp employees get a nice fat pay check at the end of the month they really couldnt give two flying ****s about the subscribers, you just got to look at 0.0 with all the isk and macro farmers about, and the fact that ccp ignore a major issue that has been stopping legit players from playing since the last patch ccp have turned into nothing more than another money grubbing corporation sadly as they used to be really great.
SoftRevolution	Posted - 2007.11.25 13:32:00 - [107] Edited by: SoftRevolution on 25/11/2007 13:32:37 Time = ISK Time also = Money Alas some peoples Time is = to more Money than other peoples. Therefore some people are always going to be able and willing to pay other people to farm for them. Welcome to MMORPGs. At least with GTCs CCP can a) track the currency (Why do you think they demand the use of the secure method?) and b) "tax" it. The only part I find particularly sad in all of this is that it's another way for addicts to screw themselves over. EVE RELATED CONTENT
Locnar Caldari Amarr Internal Construction	Posted - 2007.11.25 14:10:00 - [108] Originally by: Liv Forever Blizzard would never sell gold in WOW and would not facilitate it. Another WOW player wanting to change Eve... nothing to see here, move along... PS: IIRC CCP sells the GTC's en mass to companies that in turn sell them to us to do with as we will. CCP decided to help curtail the eBay issue with in game content and facilitated the GTC/ISK scheme. Even if you have all the isk in Eve it wont matter if you havenett spent the 6months to a year skilling up. In WoW this would be an issue as you need to grind to gain skill and buying gold with rl money would seriously give you a BIG unfair advantage. And it realy comes down to allowing a larger group of players enjoy the game - power players can rat/mine/pewpew all day long and make isk. Casual players cant but because of the absolutel genius in how CCP designed the skill system having GTC for ISK keeps more people playing longer. CCP sells GTC = $$$ More accounts paying monthly = $$$ Without the extra $$$ we wouldnt have all the free addons like the upcomming overhaul of the GFX engine and such (which probably called for an increase on the personnel front at CCP...) All of his has been gone over before and tbh I feel a little dirty for adding to this troll thread...
Caine 607 Caldari Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2007.11.25 14:14:00 - [109] I for one have resigned myself to the fact that CCP's stated policy regarding GTC's is unlikely to change at any point in the foreseeable future. One need only to read the first page of responses to realise that there is a considerable and vocal support group busily extolling the virtues of this apparently innocuous act of officially endorsed duplicity. I was reasonably impressed by some of the previous posters' comments concerning this issue and their apparent indifference based on the argument that no matter to what extent players, corporations or even alliances choose to take advantage of this deliberate 'loophole' (for lack of a better euphemism), it is unlikely to affect the majority of players' in-game experiences - not that it justifies the brazen hypocrisy of this otherwise nauseating ethical contradiction. That said, I can't stand the argument that 'it helps balance the playing field for those who work too hard and those who apparently don't' - there's an alternative to that too... get a job then you too can experience the thrill of buying your way to recognition (all be it short lived) and you may even be introduced to alien concept of social exposure in the process.
Earthan Gallente The Absolutely Amazing Fire Eaters Breidablik	Posted - 2007.11.25 14:29:00 - [110] Edited by: Earthan on 25/11/2007 14:31:56 I hate any kind of rl money<->ingame stuff. But CCP has done what it has done, dont think it will change anytime soon.Maybe its the best that can be done about the issue the CCP's solution , but i dont like it it anyway - Killing Eve bullies all over the galaxy hunting stories
Onkadis	Posted - 2007.11.25 14:56:00 - [111] Originally by: Liv Forever EVE is intended to be a level playground where people either make it or not based solely on their abilities and hard work INSIDE EVE, not outside of it. It should not matter whether you are a rich man or a poor man in the real world. This is another classic example of an individual imposing their particular wants on a game and attributing it to someone else. But think just for a second: how much money you have in the real world will determine what kind of computer hardware you can buy. Someone with more money can buy better, faster stuff. CCP knows this, all game design companies know this. Where you live in the world, what kind of internet connection you can afford, again, all affects your access to the game. CCP has never tried to restrict the number of accounts a player can buy and own. The power of two system, in fact, encourages people to buy more accounts. On a very simple, logical level your statement fails. Quote: So why does CCP allow ppl to sell GTC for ISK-that uses real life money to buy in game currency. It's a real convenience for people. Sometimes I have used isk to buy GTCs that I use to fund another character. I've collected isk for guys down on their luck who would have otherwise had to stop playing the game due to a lack of real-world money to let them keep going with the only real source of enjoyment in their lives. This 'game' has helped them get back on their feet because they were able to stay in touch with a group of supportive friends. But more importantly, it's a service they can provide people that has no impact on the economy, and gives people an opportunity to who do this sort of thing anyways (and it happens in any MMO where there's a market) to do it through a legitimate route that CCP can control that has a null effect on the economy. Quote: CCP PLEASE STOP FACILITATING PPL CHEATING. I would like an official response please-or to be directed to one. It's not cheating. It's a game mechanic that CCP set-up. They've talked about this in hundreds of places. So, you're going to have to understand that in a community this large they can't spend the time on every body who comes in for a week and threatens to quit because they think something's unfair. There's little to no downside to using this system, and plenty of upside. The fact that your sense of fair play is offended a bit is not something that most of the people in this game are going to worry too much about.
Minerva Vulcan Caldari The Nexus Foundation	Posted - 2007.11.25 14:59:00 - [112] It's really not cheating if the owners of the game condone it, now is it? _______________________________ I need new voices in my head, To speak my secret evils with. I need new lovers in my bed, To be my friends and special pets.
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2007.11.25 15:03:00 - [113] Originally by: Minerva Vulcan It's really not cheating if the owners of the game condone it, now is it? It's more like extreme metagaming. From your characters perspective you suddenly get ISK for no reason at all. But yeah, it is hard to call it cheating when it doesn't actually break any rules... - I wish I was a three foot female doll with a watering can and heterochromatic eyes.
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2007.11.25 15:20:00 - [114] Originally by: Cpt Fina Legalizing something just because you can't effectively stop it? Nice logic. Actually, it IS the most logic course of action possible, and REAL-LIFE governments could learn a thing or two from that practice. Does "prohibition" ring a bell here ? You know, that thing in the early 20th century in the USA, when alcohool was illegal ? You know how great that turned out to be, and how long it lasted. C\|S\|I\|N\|x.
Caine 607 Caldari Caldari Provisions	Posted - 2007.11.25 15:55:00 - [115] Originally by: Akita T Actually, it IS the most logic course of action possible, and REAL-LIFE governments could learn a thing or two from that practice. Does "prohibition" ring a bell here ? You know, that thing in the early 20th century in the USA, when alcohool was illegal ? You know how great that turned out to be, and how long it lasted. The difference is, as far as I recall the state didn't follow up its draconian ban with a policy that dictated its right to be the sole vendor of alcohol !
fell1234	Posted - 2007.11.25 16:35:00 - [116] Originally by: Akita T Originally by: Cpt Fina Legalizing something just because you can't effectively stop it? Nice logic. Actually, it IS the most logic course of action possible, and REAL-LIFE governments could learn a thing or two from that practice. Does "prohibition" ring a bell here ? You know, that thing in the early 20th century in the USA, when alcohool was illegal ? You know how great that turned out to be, and how long it lasted. This is a pretty moronic stance. No set of laws stop or prevent ANY activity 100%. Put adding a punishment to a behavior sure as hell reduces and moderates how many people do it. You cant possibly think that the amount of isk selling/buying in EVE would remain the same if it was an instant and permanent ban do you? Even ILLEGAL isk buying doesn't get your character banned and that IS cheating. Also the OP was quoting CCP so its obviously something that even some CCP employees find stupid. People able to pay for a month of game time with isk is cool and is a neat feature. Allowing people to convert thousands of dollars into billions of isk is in every way bad for a pvp centric game. Accounts should only be able to do one GTC to isk transfer per whatever period that GTC is for. Would allow people to play on isk. And allow some people to augment their in game means. But it would keep it moderated to reasonable levels.
cal nereus Bounty Hunter - Dark Legion Brutally Clever Empire	Posted - 2007.11.25 17:19:00 - [117] Originally by: Sergeant Spot The whole Isk sales for RL money is a convoluted and flawed situation, for which CCP has a introduced a convoluted and flawed solution. Unless you have a BETTER idea, dont be so quick to demand change. Its the same thing for a lot of RL situation, both public and private. Its the way the world works, even in on line games. Always has, always will. Its fine to state that the situation is flawed (as it truely is, and badly so....), but always be sure to SUPPORT the existing solution, flawed or not, unless you have a better one. Well said. --- Join BH-DL Skills
fell1234	Posted - 2007.11.25 17:25:00 - [118] Quote: This is another classic example of an individual imposing their particular wants on a game and attributing it to someone else. But think just for a second: how much money you have in the real world will determine what kind of computer hardware you can buy. Someone with more money can buy better, faster stuff. CCP knows this, all game design companies know this. Where you live in the world, what kind of internet connection you can afford, again, all affects your access to the game. Those are the words of a CCP employee posted on a CCP posted forum...idiot
Rilus	Posted - 2007.11.25 23:13:00 - [119] Originally by: Cpt Fina Just as isk-trading. It's not impossible to fight it's just hard. According to CCP several accounts, both buyers and sellers have been banned. So i really can't see how you can say it's unenforceable. Well, if consider the following options: a) prohibit ALL kind of ISK for cash transactions and since the ban cannot be reasonably enforced, players will STILL buy ISK through sites and whatnot but scams and bans will go up and the ones to benefit the most will be the ISK sellers or the scammers. b) Allow a controlled form of ISK for cash and minimize scams and the ones to benefit will be the players and CCP. Originally by: Cpt Fina Originally by: Rilus To answer your question: If a law is not enforceable, it should be removed. Given the fact that CCP can and have done something about the problem it shows that they got atleast some means to fight it. And no I don't agree with your logic. If some lawforming entity of some sort thinks that some action is morally undefendable and generally bad for the citizens (like domestic violence/abuse) it should not sanction it by the simple reason that they have a hard time dealing with it. Even if all the most moral and upstanding "entities" agree that mean thoughts should be banned, it is irrelevant and not reasonably enforceable, therefore such a law should never exist. For a more modern and realistic example, think of the current anti-piracy wars. The laws against it are not currently reasonably enforceable since grandmas, kids, doctors, lawyers, and people of every class, age, and economic stratus download all kinds of content illegally. Anti-piracy laws int he United States will never be enforceable en force, lest we rouse the rage of the great majority of people (more each day.) Another controversial example is that of US "war on drugs." While this war has made a difference in drug consumption and traffic, it has also created terrifyingly powerful carters in many countries that have done untold crimes. Not to mention that, sometimes, the drugs that are still being trafficked into the US can contain toxins that can make the drugs even more dangerous than normal. So, again, the question is this: What's the lesser of the two evils? Honorable thoughts or good intentions have to be weighed against reality.
Buyerr	Posted - 2007.11.25 23:58:00 - [120] Edited by: Buyerr on 26/11/2007 00:04:34 Originally by: cal nereus If CCP says it isn't cheating, it isn't. It's their game, they set the rules, and the rest of us are just players. We don't own any part of their game. If it gets really bad, we can stop playing. I'm sure CCP knows this, which is why they probably won't openly condone what is generally perceived as cheating. but at the same time banning isk sellers and people that buy isk... it is kind of a paradox that doesn't make sense :S either they should make it legal, or illegal. saying "well we are to stupid, incompetent or whatever the reason is, and then just saying well then i guess it is okey, we can't stop then so why not join them ^^" :D yup that is the right way to enforce a "law/rule" mmmHmmm.. which country do you life in again?! ;) NO the right way and very easy way to do it, is just hardcore banning any one selling or buying isk for RL cash. which isn't that hard btw. isk have gone from 34$ to 4$ in eve (+-) while in other games like wow it have gone up in price... what does this tell you ?! that ccp ain't doing **** about it while blizzard are... so there, if you wanted to stop it, it would be easy, the way they are "cleaning" isk on is so pathetically easy to see. contract scams loled!. as if that would be legal inside the game anyway :P ccp is 100% responsible for the isk sellers and you can see in the cost of isk that they clearly are either too incompetent to do anything or just don't care to do anything..
MotorBreath	Posted - 2007.11.26 00:37:00 - [121] Originally by: Buyerr isk have gone from 34$ to 4$ in eve (+-) while in other games like wow it have gone up in price... what does this tell you ?! that ccp ain't doing **** about it while blizzard are... Hold on a minute here. It's exactly the other way arround. Logic tells you that if price has gone down that much, the ISK sellers have had such a decline in sales and are sitting on an ISK surplus that they are forced to lower the price. This means that CCP doing a damn good job. How does it feel to have a lower than average IQ?
Malcanis High4Life SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2007.11.26 00:54:00 - [122] Originally by: MotorBreath Originally by: Buyerr isk have gone from 34$ to 4$ in eve (+-) while in other games like wow it have gone up in price... what does this tell you ?! that ccp ain't doing **** about it while blizzard are... Hold on a minute here. It's exactly the other way arround. Logic tells you that if price has gone down that much, the ISK sellers have had such a decline in sales and are sitting on an ISK surplus that they are forced to lower the price. This means that CCP doing a damn good job. How does it feel to have a lower than average IQ? It could mean that either supply has significantly increased, or that demand has increased, or that there is competition, or some combination thereof. CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that.
Cpt Fina Mutually Assured Distraction	Posted - 2007.11.26 01:09:00 - [123] Originally by: Rilus Originally by: Cpt Fina Just as isk-trading. It's not impossible to fight it's just hard. According to CCP several accounts, both buyers and sellers have been banned. So i really can't see how you can say it's unenforceable. Well, if consider the following options: a) prohibit ALL kind of ISK for cash transactions and since the ban cannot be reasonably enforced, players will STILL buy ISK through sites and whatnot but scams and bans will go up and the ones to benefit the most will be the ISK sellers or the scammers. b) Allow a controlled form of ISK for cash and minimize scams and the ones to benefit will be the players and CCP. Easy, I'd prefer option "a" as I explained in previous posts. Originally by: Rilus Originally by: Cpt Fina Originally by: Rilus To answer your question: If a law is not enforceable, it should be removed. Given the fact that CCP can and have done something about the problem it shows that they got atleast some means to fight it. And no I don't agree with your logic. If some lawforming entity of some sort thinks that some action is morally undefendable and generally bad for the citizens (like domestic violence/abuse) it should not sanction it by the simple reason that they have a hard time dealing with it. Even if all the most moral and upstanding "entities" agree that mean thoughts should be banned, it is irrelevant and not reasonably enforceable, therefore such a law should never exist. Well the institutions of lawenforcement often reflect the thought and moral standpoints of the common citizen. Things that are considered generally wrong such as murder, theft, ***ect. is expected to be illegal either if the gouvernment can enforce these laws effectively or not. By saying ô it. We canÆt handle this. Revoke these laws.ö YouÆre not only changing whatÆs acts are followed by a punishment and which arenÆt. You are taking a stand on what kind of behaviours this society is going to accept, what it no longer considered as wrong or immoral. Originally by:** Rilus For a more modern and realistic example, think of the current anti-piracy wars. The laws against it are not currently reasonably enforceable since grandmas, kids, doctors, lawyers, and people of every class, age, and economic stratus download all kinds of content illegally. Anti-piracy laws int he United States will never be enforceable en force, lest we rouse the rage of the great majority of people (more each day.) Another controversial example is that of US "war on drugs." While this war has made a difference in drug consumption and traffic, it has also created terrifyingly powerful carters in many countries that have done untold crimes. Not to mention that, sometimes, the drugs that are still being trafficked into the US can contain toxins that can make the drugs even more dangerous than normal. IÆm fully aware of said examples and IÆve never stated that these kinds of law implementation donÆt occur. They are however examples of actions/crimes that a lot of people donÆt find naturally wrong and thus would be easier to legalize. Would you condone the legitimization of ***if your government failed at catching a single offender? Even though it, in this example, maybe wouldnÆt have an impact on the amount of rapes being committed people would still expect the rulers not to stand for such a thing. Originally by:** Rilus So, again, the question is this: What's the lesser of the two evils? Honorable thoughts or good intentions have to be weighed against reality. Yeah, it is a matter of opinion. People may think this current solution is the best. I donÆt. As long as GTC-trading is legal CCP canÆt ever claim that illegal isk-trade is bad because of any in-game reason imo.
Cpt Fina Mutually Assured Distraction	Posted - 2007.11.26 01:12:00 - [124] Edited by: Cpt Fina on 26/11/2007 01:12:43 Originally by: Akita T Originally by: Cpt Fina Legalizing something just because you can't effectively stop it? Nice logic. Actually, it IS the most logic course of action possible, and REAL-LIFE governments could learn a thing or two from that practice. Does "prohibition" ring a bell here ? You know, that thing in the early 20th century in the USA, when alcohool was illegal ? You know how great that turned out to be, and how long it lasted. Depends on if you are willing to sacrifice a little integrity to gain a little bit of order. My personal opinion is that integrity, both on a personal and a national level, is far more important.
Crumplecorn Gallente Eve Cluster Explorations	Posted - 2007.11.26 01:16:00 - [125] Originally by: Cpt Fina Edited by: Cpt Fina on 26/11/2007 01:12:43 Originally by: Akita T Originally by: Cpt Fina Legalizing something just because you can't effectively stop it? Nice logic. Actually, it IS the most logic course of action possible, and REAL-LIFE governments could learn a thing or two from that practice. Does "prohibition" ring a bell here ? You know, that thing in the early 20th century in the USA, when alcohool was illegal ? You know how great that turned out to be, and how long it lasted. Depends on if you are willing to sacrifice a little integrity to gain a little bit of order. My personal opinion is that integrity, both on a personal and a national level, is far more important. I hope you are never in power in a country near me - I wish I was a three foot female doll with a watering can and heterochromatic eyes.
Cpt Fina Mutually Assured Distraction	Posted - 2007.11.26 01:22:00 - [126] Originally by: Crumplecorn Originally by: Cpt Fina Edited by: Cpt Fina on 26/11/2007 01:12:43 Originally by: Akita T Originally by: Cpt Fina Legalizing something just because you can't effectively stop it? Nice logic. Actually, it IS the most logic course of action possible, and REAL-LIFE governments could learn a thing or two from that practice. Does "prohibition" ring a bell here ? You know, that thing in the early 20th century in the USA, when alcohool was illegal ? You know how great that turned out to be, and how long it lasted. Depends on if you are willing to sacrifice a little integrity to gain a little bit of order. My personal opinion is that integrity, both on a personal and a national level, is far more important. I hope you are never in power in a country near me Did you understand what I posted?
Rilus	Posted - 2007.11.26 01:42:00 - [127] Originally by: Cpt Fina Originally by: Rilus Well, if consider the following options: a) prohibit ALL kind of ISK for cash transactions and since the ban cannot be reasonably enforced, players will STILL buy ISK through sites and whatnot but scams and bans will go up and the ones to benefit the most will be the ISK sellers or the scammers. b) Allow a controlled form of ISK for cash and minimize scams and the ones to benefit will be the players and CCP. Easy, I'd prefer option "a" as I explained in previous posts. So, creating more REAL LIFE problems for CCP (customer service issues, security problems, etc) and for the players (having their credit card info stolen, losing their account, not getting the ISK they paid for, etc) is OK as long as the GAME remains fair? Wow... your priorities seem more than a little skewed, to say the least. Originally by: Cpt Fina Well the institutions of lawenforcement often reflect the thought and moral standpoints of the common citizen. Things that are considered generally wrong such as murder, theft, ***ect. is expected to be illegal either if the gouvernment can enforce these laws effectively or not. By saying ô it. We canÆt handle this. Revoke these laws.ö YouÆre not only changing whatÆs acts are followed by a punishment and which arenÆt. You are taking a stand on what kind of behaviours this society is going to accept, what it no longer considered as wrong or immoral. Well, that's where we're more than a little different. I don't need any organization or entity to tell me what's right or wrong. I know what's right and wrong and I support any entity that shares my values. Regardless of how immoral or wrong something seems to me (or anyone else that, for that matter), if it simply cannot be reasonably curbed or stopped. It is pointless to make a law against it and it is nothing but a political show to try to define what side of your version of the "good versus evil" play you're in. You can have any and all policies you so wish to show you're against something, but unless you can actually reasonably enforce said policy, all you're doing is ing into the wind, as it were. A more realistic organization will remain pragmatic and realistic and will react accordingly. CCP realized the reality of the situation and acted in their and the players' best interest. Such interests being the players' and CCP's REAL assets and not who's got the biggest in-game ship. By the by, morality are NOT changed by laws. It is changed slowly through education. Originally by:** Cpt Fina IÆm fully aware of said examples and IÆve never stated that these kinds of law implementation donÆt occur. They are however examples of actions/crimes that a lot of people donÆt find naturally wrong and thus would be easier to legalize. Would you condone the legitimization of *****if your government failed at catching a single offender? Even though it, in this example, maybe wouldnÆt have an impact on the amount of rapes being committed people would still expect the rulers not to stand for such a thing. Yeah, it is a matter of opinion. People may think this current solution is the best. I donÆt. As long as GTC-trading is legal CCP canÆt ever claim that illegal isk-trade is bad because of any in-game reason imo. If what you're asking me is if I'm for revoking a law that cannot be reasonably enforced, I've already answered your question. It's the same as asking me: "Are you for a law against imagining women naked?" It's not that I'm for or against it. It's that it's pointless to have it, is all.
Kazuma Saruwatari	Posted - 2007.11.26 01:44:00 - [128] Jeebus, flogging a dead horse are we? CCP knows its a problem with no real solution in mind, and the secure GTC trade is, by and by, the most likely solution that'll help everyone (like giving people who are going through a rough spot in their financial lives to at least keep skill training, like I was 4-5 months ago), whilst at the same time making sure its controlled and monitored enough, AND the revenue at least gets to CCP and not some ******** trying to siphon off CCP's money. Its not perfect, but would you rather have no system in place and have other people siphon off more money from CCP and/or remove the option for people who cant pay due to lack of money/access to credit card/exorbitant CC rates (like where I live, bloody pig-banks)? I'm very sure CCP would be all ears if you have a solution that is better than the one currently in place. They know it isnt perfect, we know it isnt perfect, but at least it works, and keeps it as a lesser of the two evils by being a monitored thing, and helps people. - Odd Pod Out, a blog of EVE Online
Rilus	Posted - 2007.11.26 01:45:00 - [129] Originally by: Cpt Fina Originally by: Crumplecorn Originally by: Cpt Fina Edited by: Cpt Fina on 26/11/2007 01:12:43 Originally by: Akita T Originally by: Cpt Fina Legalizing something just because you can't effectively stop it? Nice logic. Actually, it IS the most logic course of action possible, and REAL-LIFE governments could learn a thing or two from that practice. Does "prohibition" ring a bell here ? You know, that thing in the early 20th century in the USA, when alcohool was illegal ? You know how great that turned out to be, and how long it lasted. Depends on if you are willing to sacrifice a little integrity to gain a little bit of order. My personal opinion is that integrity, both on a personal and a national level, is far more important. I hope you are never in power in a country near me Did you understand what I posted? I'm sure he did but, if he's anything like me, he interpreted what you said as basically saying something to the effect of "I support the war on ****ography and anything else I deem immoral." Scary, in my opinion.
Cpt Fina Mutually Assured Distraction	Posted - 2007.11.26 02:13:00 - [130] Originally by: Rilus So, creating more REAL LIFE problems for CCP (customer service issues, security problems, etc) and for the players (having their credit card info stolen, losing their account, not getting the ISK they paid for, etc) is OK as long as the GAME remains fair? Wow... your priorities seem more than a little skewed, to say the least. Nobody is forcing anyone to play the game and even tho bad things can happen it wouldn't be supported by CCP. I never said that the removal of GTC would be a smart move from a business perspective. It would however be smart if CCP want the pilots their universe to play on equal terms. I really doubt that CCP initially thought GTC would be a good idea. I think it's something that merged from the rising problems of isktrade. CCP let the influence of the iskfarmers activity alter the gamebalance for their customers in their lifework by introducing GTC as a remedy. Originally by: Rilus Well, that's where we're more than a little different. I don't need any organization or entity to tell me what's right or wrong. Did I ever say that need any organization or entity to tell me what's right or wrong? Or did I say that the laws should relfect the general consensus of what's wrong or right? Originally by: Rilus Regardless of how immoral or wrong something seems to me (or anyone else that, for that matter), if it simply cannot be reasonably curbed or stopped. It is pointless to make a law against it and it is nothing but a political show to try to define what side of your version of the "good versus evil" play you're in. That's exactly what it is. It's also a show of character. Taking a stand against something you think is wrong even though you can't do anything stop it. Much like Denmark taking a stand against the **s during WWII when german troops stood at their border. Originally by:** Rilus You can have any and all policies you so wish to show you're against something, but unless you can actually reasonably enforce said policy, all you're doing is **ing into the wind, as it were. A more realistic organization will remain pragmatic and realistic and will react accordingly. CCP realized the reality of the situation and acted in their and the players' best interest. Such interests being the players' and CCP's REAL assets and not who's got the biggest in-game ship. Yeah I get it. Principles don't mean to you. Originally by:** Rilus By the by, morality are NOT changed by laws. It is changed slowly through education. Never said they do. Laws do however change by morality of the citizens.
Cpt Fina Mutually Assured Distraction	Posted - 2007.11.26 02:20:00 - [131] Edited by: Cpt Fina on 26/11/2007 02:20:58 Originally by: Rilus Originally by: Cpt Fina Originally by: Crumplecorn Originally by: Cpt Fina Edited by: Cpt Fina on 26/11/2007 01:12:43 Originally by: Akita T Originally by: Cpt Fina Legalizing something just because you can't effectively stop it? Nice logic. Actually, it IS the most logic course of action possible, and REAL-LIFE governments could learn a thing or two from that practice. Does "prohibition" ring a bell here ? You know, that thing in the early 20th century in the USA, when alcohool was illegal ? You know how great that turned out to be, and how long it lasted. Depends on if you are willing to sacrifice a little integrity to gain a little bit of order. My personal opinion is that integrity, both on a personal and a national level, is far more important. I hope you are never in power in a country near me Did you understand what I posted? I'm sure he did but, if he's anything like me, he interpreted what you said as basically saying something to the effect of "I support the war on ***ography and anything else I deem immoral." Scary, in my opinion. What gave the impression that it would be my personal opinions of wrong and right that should the thing of which I think the lawenforcement should be focusing on? Appearantly you didn't get the post either. Sacrificing a bit of integrity (such as legalizing something that one consider is wrong) to gain a bit of order (if any at all)* Do you understand now?
Paulo Damarr	Posted - 2007.11.26 02:46:00 - [132] Ok so its established that sacrificing morals in the case of real world ethical issues regarding criminality and issues that have real dangers to health, public safety and society in general is not such a good thing. But what the hell has this to do with something that is neither illegal nor really immoral and just a Internet spaceship game service providers company policy? Originally by: Tortun Nahme CCP also condones thinking, I suggest you try it from tiem to time
Brennah Minmatar GoonFleet GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.11.26 03:43:00 - [133] Originally by: Liv Forever Edited by: Liv Forever on 24/11/2007 23:21:44 Edited by: Liv Forever on 24/11/2007 23:21:15 Thanks for the intelligent replies. Interestingly nothing official yet. If i were them I would be to embarrassed, hypocritical or contradicted to say anything either. I mean really they can't have a valid argument that doesnt't sound like bs. Can they? You won't get an "official" response, they've already given it to you by putting in the secure method of time card for isk exchange. Bottom line is this, there are a lot of subscribers who pay for accounts this way, personally I have 6 accounts I support by buying timecards. If I could not buy timecards, I'd have 2 accounts. So for one person, by allowing this, the bring in an extra $60/month, or $720 a year. Now, go watch the time card bazzar forum for a month and see the volume of this trade. That is a lot of money they stand to lose if they try to please whiners like you. I find it to be a great system that makes the game available to people who wouldn't normally have the funds to play such a game. Additionally it evens the scales between people who have tons of time on their hands with nothing better to do vs professionals who may have disposable income but not the free time to spend hours grinding out isk. I think it's an ingenious solution to an old problem that allows everyone to win.
Redpants Gallente Dark Star LTD Atrocitas	Posted - 2007.11.26 05:15:00 - [134] In addition to what the Goon said, yes you will not likely get an "official" response to this because it is primarily your perception of cheating, and the other 4 pages of replies have sufficiently covered the issue, and the different angles to it. Also this topic is not new, it has been addressed before, and the Devs won't repeat themselves just because you demand a response. Use the search tool. Now what I like about the whole buying ISK thing is this. Think about the kind of people who think they need to do this. Painting a broad picture here, if it's a carebear then all they're going to spend their RL money on is fancy toys that affect nobody else in game, including you. If they are fighter pilots then they probably suck too bad at PVP to make in game cash, hence they can be expected to just lose their RL money as fast as thier ships go pop. For the people who are neither, and too busy with life to earn their ISK, they're still not in game enough to really mean squat with any amount of purchased currency. Things balance out in the end. Besides it's not your ISK, or your SP in this game that matter, it's your brain and your wits that get you ahead. "My once immaculate white pants are now stained from the weak and innocent. I don't wear red."
Cease n'Desist	Posted - 2007.11.26 07:31:00 - [135] Hmm....For a minute there I thought there were CCP-branded Condoms in the store...
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2007.11.26 08:00:00 - [136] Originally by: Caine 607 The difference is, as far as I recall the state didn't follow up its draconian ban with a policy that dictated its right to be the sole vendor of alcohol ! No, but it did heavily regulate who gets a license to sell alcohool, who they can sell to, and levied serious taxes on alcohool sales... and so on and so forth. It did not become the "sole vendor" of alcohool, but it does get a HUGE cut out of each and every alcohool-related transaction. To me, it does look almost the same as if the state would be the one and only alcohool vendor, and all the people you buy alcohool from are actually just subsidiaries. Originally by: fell1234 Even ILLEGAL isk buying doesn't get your character banned and that IS cheating. [...] People able to pay for a month of game time with isk is cool and is a neat feature. Allowing people to convert thousands of dollars into billions of isk is in every way bad for a pvp centric game. Accounts should only be able to do one GTC to isk transfer per whatever period that GTC is for. Would allow people to play on isk. And allow some people to augment their in game means. But it would keep it moderated to reasonable levels. "Illegal" ISK buying doesn't kill you, it's actually WORSE... it reverts the ISK trade, leaving you with a NEGATIVE balance in the pocket. You can't sell stuff, you can't direct trade stuff, you can't accept missions with a collateral. Know what USUALLY the only chance an "illegal ISK buyer" has is ? Yup, that's right... to sell GTCs to get out of the negative wallet. So, for all intents and purposes, not only does the "crime" get punished, but the punishment is somewhat fiting too... being FORCED to use the "legal" (and much more expensive) method if you plan on continuing with that character... if you don't, it's as good as a ban. Also, one thing you seem to forget... not THAT many people are willing to buy GTCs compared to the total number of accounts around. The game has roughly 200k subscribers, I really doubt more than 5% (let's say 10% to be extremely generous) buy GTCs for their characters with ISK. So, that's 10k GTC months each month, "worst case scenario" right ? Even assuming moe than half of them get 30-day GTCs instead of 90-day GTCs, that's still only roughly 175 mil per month... or 1750 bil ISK per month tops. Now, I'm not aware of how much you know about EVE's economy, but in MARKET transactions only, more than 2100 bil ISK is changing hands DAILY. Now, compare that to half a bil per farmer account per day, and let's say there's less than 2k farmers online at any given time (gross underestimation, TBQFH), and thats STILL 1000 bil ISK per day available for "illegal sales", the very least... for 30 trilion or more monthly. So, the maximum possible ISK volume obtainable monthly from GTCs barely even comes close to one normal day's worth of transactions... I'd hardly call that plenty of supply. However, the farming income might just as well actually come closer to half a month's or even a FULL month's worth of market transactions... that's not plenty of supply, that's SHEDLOADS. No wonder they offer it cheap as heck. Even if more than HALF of EVE's population would be buying GTCs with ISK, and it still wouldn't even begin to compare to the amount of ISK available for illegal trading. It's a simple choice... do you make people use the only "legal" way, and make those buying ISK pay a LOT of real-money (competing with other people for a limited resource)... or do you force those who will get ISK no matter what out ? One option gives you same amount of cash at worst (or extra cash at best, if the other would have quit playing), the other a loss of cash (subscription fee for banned char). As for the amount, there's no better system than self-regulated control via simple supply-vs-demand issues. C\|S\|I\|N\|x.
Lazuran Gallente Time And ISK Sink Corporation	Posted - 2007.11.26 08:04:00 - [137] Edited by: Lazuran on 26/11/2007 08:04:23 Originally by: MotorBreath Originally by: Buyerr isk have gone from 34$ to 4$ in eve (+-) while in other games like wow it have gone up in price... what does this tell you ?! that ccp ain't doing **** about it while blizzard are... Hold on a minute here. It's exactly the other way arround. Logic tells you that if price has gone down that much, the ISK sellers have had such a decline in sales and are sitting on an ISK surplus that they are forced to lower the price. This means that CCP doing a damn good job. A damn good job at facilitating RMT and allowing richer players to buy advantages in the game themselves ... Wow, I'm impressed. "...been designed for one purpose and one purpose only. Imagine a handful of repair drones pouring from the carebear's mouth. Now imagine they have um, nothing." -Unknown Hel redesigner (2007)
Liv Forever	Posted - 2007.11.26 08:05:00 - [138] Wow-I was the OP and I know that this topic is floggin a dead horse but at a philosophical lvl it clearly interests a lot of ppl becasue it's still going for the umteenth time. I have done a bit of reading on RMT today and read interviews with the a Gold farmer manager and the economist who oversees this game among others. Th whole virtual economy is fascinating as is the intellectual and ethical investment ppl are williing to put into virtual reality. it has been interesting not only to read the various arguments but also how ppl argue. My opening subject and statement was immature and deliberately belligerant. Fortunately many of the replies have been intelligent and thoughful. I have not resolved the issue for my own sense of integrity. Part of me feels that I'm 4 year behind and maybe I should obtain a few hundred million ISK this way so that I can buy better implants and train faster etc to catch up. Antoher part feels it's cheating and to quote something I read today-"You wouldn't stuff your pockets full of Monopoly money before a game"-clealry EVE is not Monopoly and ppl don't start on an even playing fiel in EVE-so you may see me advertising my GTC soon. Now that's a tunaround. :)
Ms Freak Amarr NCN Corp Chaos Incarnate.	Posted - 2007.11.26 10:49:00 - [139] There are two things worthy of note before proclaiming "Cheating": 1) GTC's are bought by people so they can fund thier Sub. By allowing people to do this the ones that cannot afford the subscription (and im sure there are people out there) using RL cash can use thier isk to continue playing. This is a good thing and make EvE more accessible. 2) Isk != Sucessfull/Awsome/Whatever. A 5 day old player (for example) will not be any better off with 500mil isk in his wallet. He doesn't have the skill to fly a ship effectivly and will just get his a** handed to him on a plate. Just because you can fly a raven @ 10 days old, or use T2 ships permently, or replace capitals left right and center does not make you a good player or make you any harder to kill/better at killing.
Liv Forever	Posted - 2007.11.26 10:54:00 - [140] Edited by: Liv Forever on 26/11/2007 10:55:41 I would use the ISK i bought to buy the best implants which would considerably speed up my skills training which gives me big advantage over my current situation. So I'm sure it doesn't make someone a better player but it can be a big advantage.
Armoured C Gallente Globaltech Industries Hedonistic Imperative	Posted - 2007.11.26 11:57:00 - [141] Edited by: Armoured C on 26/11/2007 11:58:42 WHAT WITH THESE PEOPLE POSTING WITH ALTS and Liv Forever stop making pointless point about this subject else where the system is staying now go back to WOW or continue playing ...god so annoying
Eulalinda Caldari	Posted - 2007.11.26 12:14:00 - [142] Originally by: Armoured C WHAT WITH THESE PEOPLE POSTING WITH ALTS and Liv Forever stop making pointless point about this subject else where the system is staying now go back to WOW or continue playing ...god so annoying Thanks for contributing to the discussion about cheating and GTC sales. The reason CCP allows this form of "cheating" is because CCP is a business.
Liv Forever	Posted - 2007.11.26 12:25:00 - [143] Edited by: Liv Forever on 26/11/2007 12:25:47 Armoured C, I've alrdy asked for this thread to be closed. I posted it after playing for a few days and learning of GTC<>ISK sales. I wanted to get peoples points of view and learn a bit more about the community. I am not a troll and I am not posting on an alt. I am taking an interest in the game and its ethos, which in MMOs is as important as the mechanics. Interestingly, ppl keep posting here and it is a pretty big thread, indicating that it is a pretty big community issue (even if you're sick of hearing about it). This is not the 1st thread of its kind but given the many replies it is obviously an issue that has not been satisfactorily addressed for many ppl. I'm happy to move on and I'm not the one continuing to post on this issue-I am only replying to people who raise something new.
Ryoji Tanakama Caldari Daikoku Fleet Shipyards	Posted - 2007.11.26 13:21:00 - [144] It gives a system by which an undesirable effect can be moderated and supervised. People will buy isk one way or another. It is inevitable. This way CCP set the terms, and as opposed to solutions trialled in other games, it does not flood the markets with excess funds, the balance in the isk-force remains largely the same and impact on the economy overall is insignificant. Is it a perfect solution? No. In my eyes however it's better than giving the 8000000000 isk/gold selling sites over which nobody has any control free reign of the market. ~Ryoji Tanakama Daikoku Fleet Shipyards
NeoTheo Caldari Species 5618 R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.11.26 14:24:00 - [145] It's a interesting subject and one i disscussed with my freind recently. this is a honest to god real life example. my best mate, is on the social meaning in the UK he is living off benafits, a while back i sold him a GTC so he could play. (for isk legally via the account system). a few weeks laters i have bought myself 2 new battle cruisers for it, to witch he turns around to me and says "its wrong you can get them ships without working in game for them, i put a lot of effort in to getting that isk, your bringing real life "class" or "social standing" in to a game and thats wrong". (or words to that effect). thing is, class is already involved how much cash you earn is directly off set in the main by how much time you have. i do occasionally buy GTC not often (maybe once every 3 months or so), however i dont get time to play much at most i can do 5 LvL4 missionsa week and thats if i dont PvP. my mate on the other hand, has no job, no intention of getting a job and plays eve 23 hours a day. his "class" or "real life social standing" helps him get a advantage over me, and i work hard for a living. i use GTC's to supliment my game, i am aware i have not earned it like other players have, but on the same note it allows me with my limited play time to gang with mates in ships that are not totally awful. the whole social standings arguement goes both ways, its a really intersting subject. (i am not saying he is wrong and i am right, i just think its a very intersting subject). i think personally CCP should limit how many GTC's you can trade per account to 1 90 day card every 2 months or so, that should mean for every cash subscriber, there would be at least 1 more GTC person if everyone used it, and it would mean people could not fund allaince wars or full corps on it. /Theo
Rilus	Posted - 2007.11.26 14:40:00 - [146] Originally by: Paulo Damarr Ok so its established that sacrificing morals in the case of real world ethical issues regarding criminality and issues that have real dangers to health, public safety and society in general is not such a good thing. But what the hell has this to do with something that is neither illegal nor really immoral and just a Internet spaceship game service providers company policy? Well, it just seems that people are more interested in keeping the game fair than keeping the player's and CCP's real world assets safe.
Onkadis	Posted - 2007.11.26 14:44:00 - [147] Edited by: Onkadis on 26/11/2007 14:56:00 Originally by: fell1234 Those are the words of a CCP employee posted on a CCP posted forum...idiot Nice contribution. It really moves the debate and conversation forward. You realize that not everything that shows up under a quote refers to the quote? Sometimes quotes just frames the response. Stop for a second and think what possible things the word "this" in my sentence could possibly refer to. If you want to actually try to engage in a conversation, next time ask yourself if a particular thing you're nitpicking actually undercuts the argument presented. If not (and yours definitely doesn't) engage with the argument and refute it. Leave the ad hominums out, they only end up making you look, well, like an idiot.
Rilus	Posted - 2007.11.26 15:03:00 - [148] Originally by: Cpt Fina Edited by: Cpt Fina on 26/11/2007 02:22:07 Originally by: Rilus So, creating more REAL LIFE problems for CCP (customer service issues, security problems, etc) and for the players (having their credit card info stolen, losing their account, not getting the ISK they paid for, etc) is OK as long as the GAME remains fair? Wow... your priorities seem more than a little skewed, to say the least. Nobody is forcing anyone to play the game and even tho bad things can happen it wouldn't be supported by CCP. I never said that the removal of GTC would be a smart move from a business perspective. It would however be smart if CCP want the pilots their universe to play on equal terms. Like you said, "Nobody is forcing anyone to play." You can stop paying any time you want, Fina. Not only would it not make sense from a business point of view. It wouldn't make sense from a security and customer service point of view. You think people won't be calling Customer Service just because ISK-buying isn't supported? Keep wishing. Originally by: Cpt Fina I really doubt that CCP initially thought GTC would be a good idea. I think it's something that merged from the rising problems of isktrade. CCP let the influence of the iskfarmers activity alter the gamebalance for their customers in their lifework by introducing GTC as a remedy. Like I said, CCP realized the reality of the situation and opted for the lesser of two evils. And I reiterate, if you think that compromising CCP's and the players' real assets' security for the sake of fairness in the game, your "principles" are **** up. Originally by:** Rilus Regardless of how immoral or wrong something seems to me (or anyone else that, for that matter), if it simply cannot be reasonably curbed or stopped. It is pointless to make a law against it and it is nothing but a political show to try to define what side of your version of the "good versus evil" play you're in. Originally by: Cpt Fina That's exactly what it is. It's also a show of character. Taking a stand against something you think is wrong even though you can't do anything stop it. Much like Denmark taking a stand against the **s during WWII when german troops stood at their border. A show of character is fantastic and all, but if you're sacrificing your people's (player's, in this case) safety and livelihood for your so-called "character," then you have no place leading. It's wishy washy stupidity like yours that has gotten many people killed, in jail, etc unnecessarily. This is the real world. Your character will mean exactly jack st against bullets or scammers. Originally by: Rilus You can have any and all policies you so wish to show you're against something, but unless you can actually reasonably enforce said policy, all you're doing is **ing into the wind, as it were. A more realistic organization will remain pragmatic and realistic and will react accordingly. CCP realized the reality of the situation and acted in their and the players' best interest. Such interests being the players' and CCP's REAL assets and not who's got the biggest in-game ship. Originally by:** Cpt Fina Yeah I get it. Principles don't mean ** to you. Finally, I get what you're saying. You're saying you support the idiots from Inglis, Florida whose government wanted to pass a law to ban Satan from their town. At least they're showing "principles," right? Originally by:** Rilus By the by, morality are NOT changed by laws. It is changed slowly through education. Never said they do. Laws do however change by morality of the citizens. Well, until it's somehow safer for people and CCP to buy ISK, the best option, morally, is what CCP is doing whether your epeen is hurt or not.
Astrum Proeliator Caldari The Knights Templar	Posted - 2007.11.26 15:42:00 - [149] "Buying your way to power while others slowly and surely play their way towards the top (within the rules!)" Who sets these rules? Who states that it is a cheat? "EVE is intended to be a level playground where people either make it or not based solely on their abilities and hard work INSIDE EVE, not outside of it" Sorry. Are you an authorized CCP spokesperson? Only the people who are employees that have worked for CCP for countless hours developing the game should be the ones that state what EVE is supposed to be. "Ppl r not making money through hard work INSIDE EVE" So who exactly are paying isk to buy these GTC's? "I have only been playing this game 5 days" You have lost any credibility in this comment. Either you are posting with alt or are creating posts without taking to learn the whole game first. "I haven't seen an official response yet" And you still do not get it right? Subscription allows you to access CCP resources. It does not mean you get a part ownership of the company. Do you really expect CCP to give you an answer when long time customers have posted the same statements countless times without a response? "I am thinking of cancelling my subscription" Please do. Everytime a 5 day old whiner leave a game, an angel gets its wings. "Why would i bother mining for hours and hours a day when i can work 15 minutes irl for the same reward" need a job? I need my toilet cleaned.
Cpt Fina Mutually Assured Distraction	Posted - 2007.11.26 15:48:00 - [150] Edited by: Cpt Fina on 26/11/2007 15:49:04 Originally by: Rilus Like you said, "Nobody is forcing anyone to play." You can stop paying any time you want, Fina. Not only would it not make sense from a business point of view. It wouldn't make sense from a security and customer service point of view. You think people won't be calling Customer Service just because ISK-buying isn't supported? Keep wishing. It may be a very good thing to do from a customer service POV. The removal of GTC would balance the game in a way that would benefit alot of players. The essence of CCPs service is to supply a gameexperience. They've let activities from a illegal third party to lower the quality of said product. Originally by: Rilus Like I said, CCP realized the reality of the situation and opted for the lesser of two evils. And I reiterate, if you think that compromising CCP's and the players' real assets' security for the sake of fairness in the game, your "principles" are **** up. Please try to refrain from foul language and discuss in a civilized manner. ôThe lesser of two evilsö is your personal opinion. Not a given fact. Would banning all small scale business (restaurants ect) if organized crime sydicates couldnÆt be dealth with effectively be a good option? The ban would ensure that the personnel of said businesses wouldnÆt have to get extorted and threatened but it would also be a attack on the personal freedom of running a restaurant. Which is the lesser of the two evils? The more you let criminal activity limit the freedom of the common man the more youÆve failed as a society imo. The same principles apply to the GTC-example. The stakes are just different. Originally by:** Rilus A show of character is fantastic and all, but if you're sacrificing your people's (player's, in this case) safety and livelihood for your so-called "character," then you have no place leading. It's wishy washy stupidity like yours that has gotten many people killed, in jail, etc unnecessarily. This is the real world. Your character will mean exactly jack st against bullets or scammers. Please refrain from personal insults. It demonstrates you lack of intelligence rather than proving your point. Again, same principle. Freedom of choice and personal responsibility versus restricted freedom for safety. Originally by:** Rilus Finally, I get what you're saying. You're saying you support the idiots from Inglis, Florida whose government wanted to pass a law to ban Satan from their town. At least they're showing "principles," right? If you canÆt manage to cope with this discussion without resorting to patronizing comments IÆll drop one myself. YouÆre on of those guys that think that the government should gather all criminals and hang them. Ban all knifes, violent TV-shows, extreme sports and lower all speedlimits to 10 mp/h. You would be happy if we all were locked up in our houses with gasmasks, padded furniture and only oatmeal and vitamin pills were legal. Originally by: Rilus By the by, morality are NOT changed by laws. It is changed slowly through education. Originally by: Cpt Fina Never said they do. Laws do however change by morality of the citizens. Originally by: Rilus Well, until it's somehow safer for people and CCP to buy ISK, the best option, morally, is what CCP is doing whether your epeen is hurt or not. ThatÆs your personal opinion.
Cautet North Siders	Posted - 2007.11.26 16:10:00 - [151] Edited by: Cautet on 26/11/2007 16:15:50 Wow, 6 page thread. No-one is going to read my comments then but I'll add them anyway. 1. Time is money. Some people have more money and less time, some have more time and less money (all subjective). GTC selling allows this to be balanced with tine in the eve game world at a rate which relfects the respective values of the average player on both sides of this. So everyone wins. 2. The point about isk selling happening anyway is valid. If people want to buy isk and people want to sell isk then there is a market. If ccp doesn't facilitate this market then other's will. I personally think CCP are progressive and forward thinking in this approach. Some people suggest that moral arguments mean that companies and people should act with no regard to pragmatic considerations - as governments often do in relation to narcotics and alcohol. I prefer the CCP way personally. And i'm not convinced that this is a moral issue. 3. How does this actually effect most of the people who are against GTC buying/selling? It doesn't. Yet they feel somehow they have the right to impose an arbitrary moral code on other players and CCP.
MasterEnt	Posted - 2007.11.26 16:14:00 - [152] Originally by: cal nereus If CCP says it isn't cheating, it isn't. It's their game, they set the rules, and the rest of us are just players. We don't own any part of their game. If it gets really bad, we can stop playing. I'm sure CCP knows this, which is why they probably won't openly condone what is generally perceived as cheating. kind of like saying that its not torture if Bush re-defines the meaning of torture. Regardless of whether CPP condones it or regards it as cheating or not... if a majority of the population does not like it then oh well. They need our subscription more than wee need their game... which they make for OUR enjoyment.
Cpt Fina Mutually Assured Distraction	Posted - 2007.11.26 16:14:00 - [153] Originally by: Cautet Yet they feel somehow they have the right to impose an arbitrary moral code on other players and CCP. Who are you reffering to?
Hellspawn01 Amarr Shadow Rebellion	Posted - 2007.11.26 16:48:00 - [154] Originally by: Liv Forever Edited by: Liv Forever on 24/11/2007 23:09:58 First of all, money is power in EVE. Buying your way to power while others slowly and surely play their way towards the top (within the rules!) with their fists clenched and a mad glint in their eyes, is cheating. Plain and simple. EVE is intended to be a level playground where people either make it or not based solely on their abilities and hard work INSIDE EVE, not outside of it. It should not matter whether you are a rich man or a poor man in the real world. Once you enter the magnificent world of EVE Online, all that should matter is how well you put your abilities to use in the game and the thickness of oneÆs real world wallet should not be used to tip the balance-quoted from EVE insider So why does CCP allow ppl to sell GTC for ISK-that uses real life money to buy in game currency. Ppl r not making money through hard work INSIDE EVE. I have only been playing this game 5 days and I know others have posted on this but I haven't seen an official response yet. I think that it is disgusting and hypocritical and ruins the PVE aspect of EVE completely. I am thinking of cancelling my subscription given that it debases such a massive part of the game. Why would i bother mining for hours and hours a day when i can work 15 minutes irl for the same reward. CCP PLEASE STOP FACILITATING PPL CHEATING. I would like an official response please-or to be directed to one. I support CCPs way of buying ISK via GTC trade cuz then ppl dont buy ISK from ISK sellers. What is so hard to understand? Ship lovers click here
Malcanis High4Life SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2007.11.26 17:24:00 - [155] Originally by: MasterEnt Originally by: cal nereus If CCP says it isn't cheating, it isn't. It's their game, they set the rules, and the rest of us are just players. We don't own any part of their game. If it gets really bad, we can stop playing. I'm sure CCP knows this, which is why they probably won't openly condone what is generally perceived as cheating. kind of like saying that its not torture if Bush re-defines the meaning of torture. Regardless of whether CPP condones it or regards it as cheating or not... if a majority of the population does not like it then oh well. They need our subscription more than wee need their game... which they make for OUR enjoyment. Judging by the magnitude of the GTC trade, it seems like quite a lot of people are at worst indifferent to it. CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that.
Rilus	Posted - 2007.11.26 17:27:00 - [156] Originally by: Cpt Fina Edited by: Cpt Fina on 26/11/2007 16:50:16 It may be a very good thing to do from a customer service POV. The removal of GTC would balance the game in a way that would benefit alot of players. The essence of CCPs service is to supply a gameexperience. They've let activities of a illegal third party lower the quality of said product. Again, you're willing to forgo player real world safety for "game balance" Originally by: Cpt Fina Originally by: Rilus Like I said, CCP realized the reality of the situation and opted for the lesser of two evils. And I reiterate, if you think that compromising CCP's and the players' real assets' security for the sake of fairness in the game, your "principles" are **** up. Please try to refrain from foul language and discuss in a civilized manner. I'm sorry. I guess when you said Originally by:** Cpt Fina Yeah I get it. Principles don't mean ** to you. I figured that it was open season for cursing. I guess it's only OK for you and your principles, right? Originally by:** Cpt Fina ôThe lesser of two evilsö is your personal opinion. Not a given fact. Would banning all small scale business (restaurants ect) if organized crime sydicates couldnÆt be dealth with effectively be a good option? The ban would ensure that the personnel of said businesses wouldnÆt have to get extorted and threatened but it would also be a attack on the personal freedom of running a restaurant. Which is the lesser of the two evils? The more you let criminal activity limit the freedom of the common man the more youÆve failed as a society imo. The same principles apply to the GTC-example. The stakes are just different. You're right. By letting people sell GTCs for ISk, CCP has essentially limited the freedom of the common man and generally failed as a society. What are you smoking?! Are you even reading what you're typing? You're saying that it's OK to have people's accounts, credit card info, and/or money be stolen just to keep the game balanced? I swear, you're a prime example of what's wrong with today's society when the status quo of a game musn't be disturbed even at the expense of real-world safety. Wow... just wow.. Originally by: Cpt Fina Please refrain from personal insults. It demonstrates you lack of intelligence rather than proving your point. Refer to where you said principles meant ** to me and stop being a hypocrite. Originally by:** Cpt Fina Again, same principle. Freedom of choice and personal responsibility versus restricted freedom for safety. So, allowing people to do what they want to do in a safer manner is limiting freedom of choice? Interestingly twisted and erroneous point of view. Originally by: Cpt Fina If you canÆt manage to cope with this discussion without resorting to patronizing comments IÆll drop one myself. YouÆre on of those guys that think that the government should gather all criminals and hang them. Ban all knifes, violent TV-shows, extreme sports and lower all speedlimits to 10 mp/h. You would be happy if we all were locked up in our houses with gasmasks, padded furniture and only oatmeal and vitamin pills were legal. I'm the one saying we should let people do what they will safely and you're saying we should limit what they do so it doesn't interfere with your precious game and, somehow, I am the one limiting freedom? I think I'll let you argue with yourself as you're obviously very confused. Originally by: Cpt Fina Originally by: Rilus Well, until it's somehow safer for people and CCP to buy ISK, the best option, morally, is what CCP is doing whether your epeen is hurt or not. ThatÆs your personal opinion. LMAO. I am just glad more people don't think like you. If it were up to you, we'd have programs installed in people's computers or cameras in houses just so people couldn't create alts or spy or do any other "unfair" things in the game.
Rilus	Posted - 2007.11.26 17:31:00 - [157] Originally by: MasterEnt Originally by: cal nereus If CCP says it isn't cheating, it isn't. It's their game, they set the rules, and the rest of us are just players. We don't own any part of their game. If it gets really bad, we can stop playing. I'm sure CCP knows this, which is why they probably won't openly condone what is generally perceived as cheating. kind of like saying that its not torture if Bush re-defines the meaning of torture. Regardless of whether CPP condones it or regards it as cheating or not... if a majority of the population does not like it then oh well. They need our subscription more than wee need their game... which they make for OUR enjoyment. If Parker Brothers rewrote the rules of Monopoly to where you could include real money, whether YOU or ANYONE ELSE thought it was cheating, it wouldn't be in that game.
Kerfira	Posted - 2007.11.26 17:34:00 - [158] Originally by: MasterEnt Originally by: cal nereus If CCP says it isn't cheating, it isn't. It's their game, they set the rules, and the rest of us are just players. We don't own any part of their game. If it gets really bad, we can stop playing. I'm sure CCP knows this, which is why they probably won't openly condone what is generally perceived as cheating. kind of like saying that its not torture if Bush re-defines the meaning of torture. Your argumentation is faulty. Dubya (the religious loon running that otherwise great country) doesn't own the world. CCP own EVE! Originally by: CCP Wrangler EVE isn't designed to just look like a cold, dark and harsh world, it's designed to be a cold, dark and harsh world.
Malcanis High4Life SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2007.11.26 17:45:00 - [159] Originally by: Thaneal Swiftbird Originally by: Viper G WOW, THERE AREN'T ANY. Case in point(s): It's impossible to stop multi-accounting. It's impossible to stop out of game money buying. In all mmorpgs. So, know that you know this, how do we make it less of a problem... That is wrong, even if the example I am about to give is a bit special. KRO (the original, korean branch of Ragnarok Online) has a strict "one account per person" rule. This is enforced by the necessity to give a valid korean passport ID on account creation. Now... I guess you will say "But it¦s easy to forge a passport ID!". Well, it may be. But afaik that is considered to be high-treason in korea. They have a death penalty on that. So guess how many dual accounters ther might be. As I said, a very special and singular example, but still a MMO (with a lot more subscibers then eve has) without multiple accounts. So you are proven wrong, no matter what. Step #1: use mum's passport ID number Step #2: use father's passport ID number ... repeat until supply of non-playing relatives exhausted. CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that.
Malcanis High4Life SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2007.11.26 17:47:00 - [160] Originally by: Rilus Originally by: MasterEnt Originally by: cal nereus If CCP says it isn't cheating, it isn't. It's their game, they set the rules, and the rest of us are just players. We don't own any part of their game. If it gets really bad, we can stop playing. I'm sure CCP knows this, which is why they probably won't openly condone what is generally perceived as cheating. kind of like saying that its not torture if Bush re-defines the meaning of torture. Regardless of whether CPP condones it or regards it as cheating or not... if a majority of the population does not like it then oh well. They need our subscription more than wee need their game... which they make for OUR enjoyment. If Parker Brothers rewrote the rules of Monopoly to where you could include real money, whether YOU or ANYONE ELSE thought it was cheating, it wouldn't be in that game. It's a long time since I've played, but I don't recall any rule specifically forbidding me from handing over 39.95 to another player to get $5000 game dollars. CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that.
Queen Killerz	Posted - 2007.11.26 18:38:00 - [161] In the end Im glad you spent $59.99 to loose to someone who plays the game! There is two kinds of people in EVE A.) One who uses RL money to play B.) People who choose to play the game for isk. Which side of the fence are you on?
Cpt Fina Mutually Assured Distraction	Posted - 2007.11.26 19:12:00 - [162] Edited by: Cpt Fina on 26/11/2007 19:15:05 Originally by: Rilus Again, you're willing to forgo player real world safety for "game balance" Again, it is basic principles of integrity vs security. Originally by: Rilus I'm sorry. I guess when you said Originally by: Cpt Fina Yeah I get it. Principles don't mean ** to you. I figured that it was open season for cursing. I guess it's only OK for you and your principles, right? Well to be picky you started to set the level by personally assaulting me before I used any profanity; Originally by:** Rilus Wow... your priorities seem more than a little skewed, to say the least. You thought you could post something like that without getting a reaction? Originally by: Rilus You're right. By letting people sell GTCs for ISk, CCP has essentially limited the freedom of the common man and generally failed as a society. What are you smoking?! Do you fail at comprehending the parallel or do you suddenly think it isnÆt a viable way of argumenting. I was highlighting the point of letting criminal activity (crimesyndicate or Isk-farmers) restrict/have a major impact on some other legal activity/entity (running a restaurant, a balanced Eve). You have drawn parallels of your own earlier in the thread. ôAs an example, Prohibition was not reasonably enforceable and they eventually rescinded it. Many other laws have been changed or removed entirely from the books because they're reasonably unenforceable.ö ôFor a more modern and realistic example, think of the current anti-piracy wars.ö ôAnother controversial example is that of US "war on drugs.ö Ect. Originally by: Rilus Are you even reading what you're typing? You're saying that it's OK to have people's accounts, credit card info, and/or money be stolen just to keep the game balanced? IÆm saying that the moment CCP altered the gamebalance for us players because of isk-farmers activity is a moment when they lost a big part of their integrity, given that they think that isk-buying is something bad. And yes! I do believe that the ability for people play on equal terms, given they paid the monthly fee, far outweighs the potential wrongdoings of iskfarmers. Originally by: Rilus I swear, you're a prime example of what's wrong with today's society when the status quo of a game musn't be disturbed even at the expense of real-world safety. Wow... just wow.. And you my friend are the prime example of everything evil and wicked in this world. Without you starvation, tyranny, drought and war would cease to exist. Want to throw personal insults at each other all day or can you continue with this discussion in a civilized manner? Originally by: Rilus Originally by: Cpt Fina Please refrain from personal insults. It demonstrates you lack of intelligence rather than proving your point. Refer to where you said principles meant ** to me and stop being a hypocrite. ôWow... your priorities seem more than a little skewed, to say the least.ö So itÆs ok for you to start to post insults but not for me to respond to them? Stop being a hypocrite. Originally by:** Rilus So, allowing people to do what they want to do in a safer manner is limiting freedom of choice? Interestingly twisted and erroneous point of view. GTC is a limitation for the players in Eve. By introducing it CCP can no longer provide a balanced game for its players. By allowing it you are restricting the players that canÆt afford ISK for cash to play on unequal terms.
Cpt Fina Mutually Assured Distraction	Posted - 2007.11.26 19:12:00 - [163] Edited by: Cpt Fina on 26/11/2007 19:16:01 Originally by: Rilus I'm the one saying we should let people do what they will safely and you're saying we should limit what they do so it doesn't interfere with your precious game and, somehow, I am the one limiting freedom? I think I'll let you argue with yourself as you're obviously very confused. You are the one willing to let criminal activity to have an impact on the Eve-gameplay in an unbalancing way. I promote integrity, a steadfast stance against criminal pressure; the capability to not let it have a bad impact on the game. And since you want to bash on my response to your patronizing accusation: Not once have mentioned nor said that I ôsupport the idiots from Inglis, Florida whose government wanted to pass a law to ban Satan from their townö . Please provide a link or quote me doing so. Originally by: Rilus LMAO. I am just glad more people don't think like you. If it were up to you, we'd have programs installed in people's computers or cameras in houses just so people couldn't create alts or spy or do any other "unfair" things in the game.[/quote Please provide a link or quotation of me saying that.
Si Delane Sector 7 Visions of Warfare	Posted - 2007.11.26 20:10:00 - [164] Just wondering, I stopped reading at page 2... Was there anything signifigant between 3 and 6 to justify the pages? As far as I can tell it has just become a point-by-point picking-apart-with-quotes-fest. GTCs are to stay. Deal with it. Frankly if someone is willing to drop thousands of dollars on some in-game money, more power to them. Heck, they could perfectly legitamately setup their own isk farming guild and pay people for it. Oh, have people proclaimed they're quitting yet? Did they realise it was an entirely hollow threat? General totally needs a "don't post about these topics" sticky. ------------------------- Actually this IS my main.
Geren Basbar Helios Incorporated Insurgency	Posted - 2007.11.26 23:11:00 - [165] Edited by: Geren Basbar on 26/11/2007 23:12:29 Edited by: Geren Basbar on 26/11/2007 23:12:10 I don't mind it at all. 1. It's not adding any ISK to the game. It's being transfered from players who did the work for those who have rl cash. 2. Some players cannot afford the fee and support their time with ISK. There are no other MMOs I know of that allow you to pay for your fee 'in-game'.. 3. Some players like EVE, but don't have the time to play and make ISK. If you make alot of money in rl, minus the amount of time you play eve, it makes sense to buy ISK. This said, I don't buy ISK. I've been wanting a second account for months and can't even afford that. My other rl hobbies are expensive and I'm a uni student. When I graduate and get a real job, I'll probably buy ISK too... (the CCP way of selling timecards, not ebay or anything)
Pitt Bull Caldari	Posted - 2007.11.26 23:28:00 - [166] Completely stamping out the cheating would have been the right thing for CCP to do. Allowing subscribers to buy ISK just lowers the value of the EVE experience exponentially. Its no longer a game, now its a sort of second life for some people. I completely agree with the people who consider this a big problem.
Steve Hawkings	Posted - 2007.11.26 23:35:00 - [167] This is basically a non argument from the OP as it is impossible to buy trained skills therefor the ISK they get for cash is not helping them advance in the game. Just face it m8 some people have more money than sense, some buy billions of ISK but the sensible people take it from others in a matter of minutes in game.
Paulo Damarr	Posted - 2007.11.26 23:38:00 - [168] Its not a problem in fact its typical CCP, they found a innovative solution to a problem all MMOs have and everybody wins, people who cant afford to subscribe are able to play and CCP benefit from the extra revenue. Only the minority of whiners are unhappy because they feel some bizarre need to claim some kind of moral high ground. Originally by: Tortun Nahme CCP also condones thinking, I suggest you try it from tiem to time
Steve Hawkings	Posted - 2007.11.26 23:39:00 - [169] Originally by: Si Delane Just wondering, I stopped reading at page 2... Was there anything signifigant between 3 and 6 to justify the pages? nope. just this self proclaimed fairness in videogames protestor repeating the same old babble he first wrote, just with different words.
Ancient Pistol	Posted - 2007.11.27 01:08:00 - [170] Originally by: Stakhanov Basically , CCP's stance and PR towards the issue is : BUYING ISK BAD ! but trading GTCs is ok Funny. However, it DOES make a huge difference from a big-picture point of view. If CCP doesn't actively work to prevent ISK-selling, then players may try to prove in a court of law that their ISK is worth real money, and sue CCP or other players for theft when they lose said money or CCP goes out of business or their servers get hacked, etc. However, since the GTC system prevents ISK from being converted back to cash, it kills three birds with one stone: (1) it hurts the ISK-farming business enough for CCP to demonstrate that they do not condone ISK-farming as a business model, (2) it allows highly successful EVE players to spend off their excess ISK for something of tangible benefit, (3) it encourages them to keep playing, instead of "cashing out" and quitting the game.

Pages: 1 2 3 4 5 6 :: [one page]

COPYRIGHT NOTICE
EVE Online, the EVE logo, EVE and all associated logos and designs are the intellectual property of CCP hf. All artwork, screenshots, characters, vehicles, storylines, world facts or other recognizable features of the intellectual property relating to these trademarks are likewise the intellectual property of CCP hf. EVE Online and the EVE logo are the registered trademarks of CCP hf. All rights are reserved worldwide. All other trademarks are the property of their respective owners. CCP hf. has granted permission to EVE-Search.com to use EVE Online and all associated logos and designs for promotional and information purposes on its website but does not endorse, and is not in any way affiliated with, EVE-Search.com. CCP is in no way responsible for the content on or functioning of this website, nor can it be liable for any damage arising from the use of this website.

but trading GTCs is ok

but trading GTCs is ok