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Bonny Lou	Posted - 2007.11.25 11:49:00 - [1] Edited by: Bonny Lou on 25/11/2007 11:52:48 I dont want to talk about systems with a good truesec and 10-30 Belts in it. Everybody knows you can make a good amount of money there and sometimes catch the big fish. I dont want to talk about the real exploration cause everybody knows you can make a lot of isk in 0.0 finding the good ones. But those two things are very limited in the amount of players they can hold and arent the true reality of most 0.0 systems. In my opinion about 90% of 0.0 is garbage not worth to spend your time in. The amount of money you can make there is far beyond the isk a lvl4-mission-runner in high sec could do. The problems are: - crappy true-sec => crappy spawns and crappy ore => 90% of 0.0 garbage - there are no missions in most of 0.0 - Encounter (for example in drone regions - alvi) have Ships being worse then the belt rats (why???) - A good belt ratting sys can supply about 5-10 players a good empire lvl-4 agent can hold hundreds If you want to bring more people to 0.0 you definatly have to improve the amount of players a single system can hold. Possible solutions are: - Improve Encounters and ensure you can do them whenever you want in every system in 0.0 (so there is alway one encounter you can find in every single 0.0 sys) - Allow Alliances to hire Agents for their Outposts - perhaps an alliances could say: "we are friendly to angels or thukker or gallente => we allow some of their agents to operate at our base" - If you dont want to buff 0.0 you have to nerf lvl4-reward (sorry guys :P) But whatever your solution will be atm 90% of 0.0 is out of line concerning reward. mfg Bonny.
Fanjita	Posted - 2007.11.25 13:35:00 - [2] ccp screwed up the risk v reward system ages ago mission in high sec in 'if you know what your doing' absolutely no risk at all and earn billions or go to 0.0 and earn very little after replacing ship losses etc for an extremely huge risk.
Lord WarATron Amarr Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.11.25 14:21:00 - [3] Edited by: Lord WarATron on 25/11/2007 14:24:24 Hi. For me, 0.0 is a playground to pvp in. I have not even tried to make a penny in 0.0 since... well, perhaps a year almost. Mind you let me share my experiences of how I made money in 0.0. I started off by flying my own freightor filled with goods such as giant cans etc and reselling them in Paragon Soul for upto 5mil+ each back in the ASCN days. Anyone cheaper, i would buy them out and resell. I used to make enough each trip to buy a new freightor, should I lose one, but I think you see the point I am making - it takes money + a bit of risk to make tons of money. When I joined Bob, I did quite a few complex's in Delve, and a little bit of ratting, however personally, I found that I made more isk/hour running lvl4's than running plex's in delve. Even now, I make 40mil/hour running lvl4's and thats semi-afk, which is less than what others make, i.e the people who focus purely on it. (BTW, in case you dont know, unless you have officer setups, you will make 10mil/hour or so with lvl4's) So that takes me to what I do now - Manufacture, resell, BPC Copying etc etc are good afk income makes, and I also make some isk doing semi-afk l4's in my alt's afk permatank setup. So the moral of the story is, my income making stratagies are so diversified that I cannot be "Not rich". All my income comes from my high sec empire alt, and it is this that funds my extravagant use of faction modules in pvp. So thats the problem that most people have with 0.0. They only know how to make money by shooting some rat or firing a mining laser. Diversify your income and make tons. -- Billion Isk Mission
Shaktipat	Posted - 2007.11.25 14:25:00 - [4] /signed If you look at some of the blogs only a small % of players reside in 0.0 - something less then 10% (if not smaller) - so they do need to think about this.
Bonny Lou	Posted - 2007.11.25 14:30:00 - [5] You are right that it is possible to make money. But i hope that you agree that there should be better possibilties in 0.0 to make money then in empire. And atm. thats not the case. At least spread more agents in 0.0 so some people can run them at their home.
fire 59 Destructive Influence Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.11.25 14:41:00 - [6] I certainly think it would be a good idea to have agents at outposts http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bdd74kLxgGo
Deep Spacenine	Posted - 2007.11.25 15:02:00 - [7] /signed UP to have agents in the 0.0 outposts! Could really but REALLY be great!
d026 THE LEGION OF STEEL WARRIORS.... R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.11.25 15:18:00 - [8] Edited by: d026 on 25/11/2007 15:18:53 /signed we need agent missions on outposts and perhaps larger systems with more belts. i dont want to have to go to empire everytime i want to do a lvl 4 or 40 jumps to venal or 30 jumps to the greate wildlands..
Stakhanov The Good Fellas	Posted - 2007.11.25 15:51:00 - [9] Edited by: Stakhanov on 25/11/2007 15:51:36 Originally by: Lord WarATron All my income comes from my high sec empire alt, and it is this that funds my extravagant use of faction modules in pvp. See , that's the problem right here. You are a member of the most powerful alliance in the game , with regional sovereignty over one of the highest rewards 0.0 , enough diplomatic contacts to secure your trading with empire space or other alliances , but you make more by grinding L4s. And you admit that farmer types make more than you - people who don't own any space , don't have any pvp skill or any special connections , no real invested efforts - just the time to grind missions over and over without even needing to pay attention. All CCP needs is the courage to move level 4 missions to lowsec / 0.0 only. Nobody is going to risk officer CNRs there - this will fix the rewards balance.
Rawr Cristina Caldari Cult of Rawr	Posted - 2007.11.25 17:15:00 - [10] Hi-sec L4 ISK Fountains have made the risk v reward system broken for years now, hence why most of EVE's population is still in Hi-sec (and practically nobody in low-sec) CCP made it so you could make all the ISK you'd ever need in the complete safety of Hi-sec. Back in 2003/2004, There were no Missions or Complexes that gave any real sort of reward, nor Battleship NPCs to farm all day (and the NPCs that were there gave about 1/5th the bounty they do now) The only consistent way to make ISK was: Mining You would be making at most 2mil / hour in Hi-sec by yourself, but it was the only 'safe' way to make ISK (there were still ore thieves, but only in the busier areas) and loads of people did it, including me. As so few people were mining in low-sec and particually 0.0, prices of Zydrine in particular skyrocketed to about 20K/pc. This prompted some people to leave the confines of hisec as they could be making upto 15mil an Hour by mining the high-end ores, although at risk. The only real problem was that: Mining is boring and it'l always be boring, So they introduced much more difficult but significantly more rewarding Level 3 missions, soon to be followed by Level 4s. Level 4s, at first, were extremely hard. I lost two battleships in a single day to Angel Extravaganza and didn't return to them for some time. Generally, you had to bring friends along to safely complete them. Nowadays, people have deadspace-fit CNRs and the L4 missions are significantly easier (Angel Extra went from being one of the hardest missions to the second easiest) and you can solo them in a passive-shieldtanked Drake and 5mil skillpoints. It is now ridiculously easy to storm through these missions by yourself and you can earn in excess of 100mil a day in the complete safety of Hi-sec, which rivals NPCing in 0.0 and far exceeds anything you could realistically earn from Mining but much more comfortably. L4 Missions break the Risk v Reward balance and NPCing in general the Economy (trillions of ISK every day generated out of nowhere), but I can't think of any way to fix it that wouldn't make a lot of people quit -----
Lord WarATron Amarr Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.11.25 17:31:00 - [11] Originally by: Stakhanov Edited by: Stakhanov on 25/11/2007 15:51:36 Originally by: Lord WarATron All my income comes from my high sec empire alt, and it is this that funds my extravagant use of faction modules in pvp. See , that's the problem right here. You are a member of the most powerful alliance in the game , with regional sovereignty over one of the highest rewards 0.0 , enough diplomatic contacts to secure your trading with empire space or other alliances , but you make more by grinding L4s. And you admit that farmer types make more than you - people who don't own any space , don't have any pvp skill or any special connections , no real invested efforts - just the time to grind missions over and over without even needing to pay attention. All CCP needs is the courage to move level 4 missions to lowsec / 0.0 only. Nobody is going to risk officer CNRs there - this will fix the rewards balance. Just to correct you. People DO risk officer fitted CNR's in low sec/0.0. I certainly did, and know a few others who do as well. You stated that I make my income from lvl4's. Close but not accurate - In my case, my income is so diversified that even if I stop doing l4's on my alt, I still bring money in. All my income is compleatly independant of any alliance/corp/diplomatic contacts, so if my noobalt can make isk, then so can anyone else. For example, the miners who sell me their minerals/ore, the people who buy my rokhs & drakes etc that I manufacture, and the other manufacturers who buy my BPC's & datacores etc, the people in trade hubs near warzones that buy my resold and maked up goods etc etc. They bring me enough income to live in 0.0 forever. The times when I usually do lvl4's is when I am stuck in a boring situation. Let me ask you, if you are in a laggy fleet battle, would you rather that I can either sit and watch and twiddle my thumbs? Or would it make sense if I fire up my alt on the 2nd client and make 40mil+ isk/hour? I even remember once picking up a Dread Guristas Invul from a high sec Guristas Extravaganza bonus stage while being lagged out to hell on my main. Makes it all worth it. Anyhow the point of the OP is that there is not enough oppertunity to make income from 0.0 other than rat/mine, though trading/reselling works better in my opinion. Granted, things like moon minerals/decrypters/boosters etc exist that corps can work towards making money from, but I am suggesting that the OP should work towards long term objectives and diversify his income. -- Billion Isk Mission
Liam Liam	Posted - 2007.11.25 18:06:00 - [12] Keep talking guys and when you finally convince the devs to nerf lvl 4 missions most of 0.0 is screwed cos half of them have mission alts in empire and that's the only reason they can afford to pvp. And when there are lvl 4 missions in 0.0 you'll get scanned out and killed every 2nd one so you won't make any money anyway
Carniflex Caldari Fallout Research Fallout Project	Posted - 2007.11.25 18:15:00 - [13] Well nothing prevents YOU also running level 4 missions in faction/officer pimped CNR in hi sec to fund your 'fun' side of game. At the end of day isk grinding is not fun but one does it usually to fund 'fun' part of game. Overall however 0.0 space between approx -0.1 down to -0.7 true sec breaks more or less even with lover end hi sec mission running in faction/t2 CNR vs T2 fitted raven in 0.0 and 0.0 below true sec -0.7 is better than hi sec missionrunning. Depending slightly on region also ofc, as some NPC are slightly 'better' than others isk/h wise. Unless something has radically changed ofc over the past year in 0.0 as I have not been in there for a while now. I dont mean by that that risk/reward is ok everywhere as low sec sucks. In hi sec you are risking multiple billions with relatively low risk factor and in 0.0 you are risking few hundred mil with relatively higher (but still lower than low sec) risk. You see alliance controlled 0.0 space is actually safer than low sec. And unlike popular myth mission runners actually DO die ocasionally to NPC's. Even in faction fitted CNR's - stuff just happens sometimes and 'logs dont show anything' or it's pilots own stupid mistake or getting overconfident.
Stakhanov The Good Fellas	Posted - 2007.11.25 18:33:00 - [14] Originally by: Lord WarATron Let me ask you, if you are in a laggy fleet battle, would you rather that I can either sit and watch and twiddle my thumbs? Or would it make sense if I fire up my alt on the 2nd client and make 40mil+ isk/hour? I even remember once picking up a Dread Guristas Invul from a high sec Guristas Extravaganza bonus stage while being lagged out to hell on my main. Makes it all worth it. I'm sorry , I guess our realms are too different to understand each other. The very thought of using a carebear alt while pvping to enjoy my Eve time better , makes my head explode
Urdatorn	Posted - 2007.11.25 18:53:00 - [15] Just one little note, it's stupidly easy to make monney in 0.0 compared to lvl4's, take this from one who do both To reply to the OP, yes, there is really room for improvment in case of how manny people a single system can suport, and this goes equaly for lowsec highsec and nullsec, i do really agree
Deep Spacenine	Posted - 2007.11.25 19:16:00 - [16] Only 1 think: - all of us pay for play - all of us likes to play eve - someone likes to be pvper and need isk from pvp - someone likes to mine and need isk from mining - someone liked to be a carebear and need isk for missions. No one has more rights then others... then i think all need a ISK reward, naturally it has to be balanced on the risk and on what i need. PS: UP to have agents in 0.0 stations with some more reward then in hi sec.
Lord WarATron Amarr Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.11.25 19:35:00 - [17] Edited by: Lord WarATron on 25/11/2007 19:35:42 Originally by: Stakhanov Originally by: Lord WarATron Let me ask you, if you are in a laggy fleet battle, would you rather that I can either sit and watch and twiddle my thumbs? Or would it make sense if I fire up my alt on the 2nd client and make 40mil+ isk/hour? I even remember once picking up a Dread Guristas Invul from a high sec Guristas Extravaganza bonus stage while being lagged out to hell on my main. Makes it all worth it. I'm sorry , I guess our realms are too different to understand each other. The very thought of using a carebear alt while pvping to enjoy my Eve time better , makes my head explode Perfectly valid quote, I felt the same way a year ago. Once you get a second account, you relise that a single account is too inflexible, and takes far too many real life hours to acheive the same thing. I dont see anything wrong with any form of play, other than the logoff/cloakoff style of play. -- Billion Isk Mission
Vrenth Gallente 23rd Armor Hydra Alliance	Posted - 2007.11.25 19:46:00 - [18] Edited by: Vrenth on 25/11/2007 19:49:55 I make 56 million an hour mininng in 0.0. All I am doing is sitting there, giving 10% to my hauler. Tell me that is risky, and tell me that is not rewarding for hte ammount of effort. Try bing a true carebear. Mining and industry is where all the money is in 0.0. Belt rats are only there to give people enough money to resupply them with ships/moduals to pvp. If you want a self sustaining economy in 0.0, its only natural you have to go industrial. Adding more missions and "free money" is doing nothing but further hyper-inflating the economy in the only ISK sink the game has left (pvp)... And to those thinking that you should make the same money from every aspect of the game, to make sure everyone can make money... that is crap. Industry should be the only GOOD way to make ISK. It is not always fun, and the more you make missions/ratting profitable, the less motivation there is to get into industry. Keep that up, and the whole economy/game will die. CCP has a delicate balance set up.
Anaalys Fluuterby Caldari	Posted - 2007.11.25 19:50:00 - [19] Just as a thought (and Carebear troll): Perhaps this is CCP's way of "reminding" you that you are supposed to be BUILDING empires? Maybe they feel that increasing rewards just makes it more likely you will be trying to destroy each other instead of building? 0.0 compared to Empire: 1)Rats worth as much as 750 times Empire rats 2)Faction drops (Empire does't even get faction ammo anymore in drops) 3)Tonnes of Ore of all types. Good luck finding an asteroid in Empire that survives 3 cycles of a strip miner. 4)20-30m per encounter site (compared to 100-200k) 100s of millions in a Exploration site compared to 1-10m 5)The few agents give 4-5x the rewards 6)"Your" space 7)No concord to hinder you. Lots more benefits too like Moon mining that you can't even do in Empire. Since the largest loss in 0.0 is to players, perhaps we either nerf PvP or bring in Concord to protect you. There, now you can have extreme rewards and not lose anything. Or, you can voluntarily stop shooting each other and make oodles of ISK (ha). Risk vs Reward: YOU are chosing to risk your ISK and ships by going into combat. Why should CCP reward you for doing so? Originally by: CCP Chronotis Since this thread continues to fight against the people who derail it into the macro miners witchhunt. I will move it to features and ideas discussion where ...
Jonny JoJo Amarr Imperial Academy	Posted - 2007.11.25 19:59:00 - [20] Originally by: Vrenth I make 56 million an hour mininng in 0.0. All I am doing is sitting there, giving 10% to my hauler. Tell me that is risky, and tell me that is not rewarding for hte ammount of effort. Try bing a true carebear. Mining and industry is where all the money is in 0.0. Belt rats are only there to give people enough money to resupply them with ships/moduals to pvp. If you want a self sustaining economy in 0.0, its only natural you have to go industrial. Adding more missions and "free money" is doing nothing but further hyper-inflating the economy in the only ISK sink the game has left (pvp)... Well, PvP is not really a isk sink, it takes the process of converting your minerals into in-game created isk via a ship blowing up giving Insurance. So it is indirectly a isk creater, but other than that you are quite correct, there is a fortune to be made in 0.0 in trading, and it was how I made my first billion isk. CCP fix for Amarr is in EVE Trinity - The Trinity of Caldari, Gallente and Minmatar!
d026 THE LEGION OF STEEL WARRIORS.... R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.11.25 20:06:00 - [21] Originally by: Anaalys Fluuterby 2)Faction drops (Empire does't even get faction ammo anymore in drops) faction items are easily available from lvl 4¯s or the lp shop you moron.
Anaalys Fluuterby Caldari	Posted - 2007.11.25 20:14:00 - [22] Edited by: Anaalys Fluuterby on 25/11/2007 20:14:40 Originally by: d026 Originally by: Anaalys Fluuterby 2)Faction drops (Empire does't even get faction ammo anymore in drops) faction items are easily available from lvl 4¯s or the lp shop you moron. Try getting a faction drop from a belt rat Besides, "Caldari Navy Heavy Missile" hardly equals "Dread Gurista XX"..... And of the whole post that was your only comment? I expected more than that.... Originally by: CCP Chronotis Since this thread continues to fight against the people who derail it into the macro miners witchhunt. I will move it to features and ideas discussion where ...
Vrenth Gallente 23rd Armor Hydra Alliance	Posted - 2007.11.25 20:14:00 - [23] Originally by: d026 Originally by: Anaalys Fluuterby 2)Faction drops (Empire does't even get faction ammo anymore in drops) faction items are easily available from lvl 4¯s or the lp shop you moron. Woah, woah, woah. What the hell was that? First of all, there are complexes in 0.0 that allow you to get 5-15 faction items every time you run them. In good status 0.0 systems, you can find a faction spawn every hour (or faster). You can't get those result with missions. Why don't you use your OWN brain, then maybe you won't have to resort to calling someone a moron?
d026 THE LEGION OF STEEL WARRIORS.... R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.11.25 20:25:00 - [24] Originally by: Anaalys Fluuterby Edited by: Anaalys Fluuterby on 25/11/2007 20:14:40 Originally by: d026 Originally by: Anaalys Fluuterby 2)Faction drops (Empire does't even get faction ammo anymore in drops) faction items are easily available from lvl 4¯s or the lp shop you moron. Try getting a faction drop from a belt rat Besides, "Caldari Navy Heavy Missile" hardly equals "Dread Gurista XX"..... And of the whole post that was your only comment? I expected more than that.... compare a cn missile launcher to a dg missile launcher. THEY ARE ALMOST IDENTICAL. usualy you get gurista ammo not dread ammo anyway wich is WORSE THAN CN AMMO. so stfu and go earn some isk in 0.0 first before you want to post your noob fantasies here.
d026 THE LEGION OF STEEL WARRIORS.... R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.11.25 20:28:00 - [25] Originally by: Vrenth Originally by: d026 Originally by: Anaalys Fluuterby 2)Faction drops (Empire does't even get faction ammo anymore in drops) faction items are easily available from lvl 4¯s or the lp shop you moron. Woah, woah, woah. What the hell was that? First of all, there are complexes in 0.0 that allow you to get 5-15 faction items every time you run them. In good status 0.0 systems, you can find a faction spawn every hour (or faster). You can't get those result with missions. Why don't you use your OWN brain, then maybe you won't have to resort to calling someone a moron? use your own brain and tell me how often the last few months you have found a ded plex and how often you got 15 faction items out of it.
Gamesguy Amarr D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.11.25 23:25:00 - [26] Edited by: Gamesguy on 25/11/2007 23:26:52 Originally by: Vrenth Originally by: d026 Originally by: Anaalys Fluuterby 2)Faction drops (Empire does't even get faction ammo anymore in drops) faction items are easily available from lvl 4¯s or the lp shop you moron. Woah, woah, woah. What the hell was that? First of all, there are complexes in 0.0 that allow you to get 5-15 faction items every time you run them. In good status 0.0 systems, you can find a faction spawn every hour (or faster). You can't get those result with missions. Why don't you use your OWN brain, then maybe you won't have to resort to calling someone a moron? 0.0 explorations= scan for 5 hours, find a site, kill everything to find out the 12mil faction BS at the end dropped ammo and nothing else. One faction spawn an hour? You live in the north. I used to rat in the best truesec systems in venal(so the best systems in the best region for ratting), I get maybe 1 faction bs spawn every 4-5 hours of ratting. I ratted there for a week and got around 6-7 faction BS spawns, all of which dropped ammo.
Danae Melios Azteca Transportation Unlimited	Posted - 2007.11.26 04:25:00 - [27] I actually don't find this too different than what happens in real life economy. Much of the economy (as I know it here in the US) is predicated on population concentrations and extremely highly efficient agriculture (farming) by fewer and fewer people. Population concentrations are required here at home for easy access to services (this is old economy, not e-commerce, obviously) and to retail goods, and (to a lesser extent) manufacturing. However, we are GREATLY reliant upon concentrated populations abroad to provide cheap labor for factories that produce goods. One reason Empire is able to provide such good returns is because so many people are there. It's where you go to trade. It's where you go to do all sorts of other stuff. It is not possible to live in 0.0 without returning to Empire, or having other people bring certain things from Empire to you. For example, skillbooks. BPOs (or BPCs, though you can get those from the BPOs from others, theoretically). NPC goods for POS fuel. Outpost eggs. As long as that is the case, there will be a concentrated population in Empire even with everything else being equal. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe that 0.0 is larger than empire in terms of space and systems. So just the steady stream of people requiring NPC goods would add somewhat to any snapshot of population distribution. And while you are there, you have the opportunity to sell and buy named and faction items, which creates trading possibilities for those who are more interested in it than others, and those will STILL be the people making a lot of the ISK. In other words, remove missions and mining from the equation, and other than ratting most of the ISK will still be made in Empire space, by those who are dedicated enough to the market game (and there is one in my corp who does this) to understand the markets well enough to do the trade thing, and these will be the lynchpins in the economy. Population density and particularly a number of unique markets (the pirate territories) that can be literally across Eve from those who would purchase the loot for the most ISK, dictate that the money is to be made in Empire. Originally by: game box Conceive a new life without boundaries, where murder, plunder, betrayal, and delusions of grandeur will lead you to boundless glory or to the brink of ruin.
Buyerr	Posted - 2007.11.26 05:06:00 - [28] Edited by: Buyerr on 26/11/2007 05:07:20 Originally by: Fanjita ccp screwed up the risk v reward system ages ago mission in high sec in 'if you know what your doing' absolutely no risk at all and earn billions or go to 0.0 and earn very little after replacing ship losses etc for an extremely huge risk. actually it is safer in 0.0 ratting then high sec missioning ;) (cloak FTW:P) ps: (yup i have been in 0.0 and am, although i agree that making isk in missions is faster it is still a lot more dangerous then the 0.0 ratting)
Bonny Lou	Posted - 2007.11.26 07:19:00 - [29] Originally by: Anaalys Fluuterby 1)Rats worth as much as 750 times Empire rats You are comparing belt rats to belt rats...compare the always available mission rats to belt rats... still 750 times? Oh and you can generate them when ever you want to... getting even lps for doing so... Quote: 2)Faction drops (Empire does't even get faction ammo anymore in drops) Sometimes you are lucky but it doesnt make it worth at all. Quote: 3)Tonnes of Ore of all types. Good luck finding an asteroid in Empire that survives 3 cycles of a strip miner. Like i did say.... but only in about 10% of 0.0 the rest is crap. Quote: 4)20-30m per encounter site (compared to 100-200k) Who needs to make an encounter in empire if you can generate them (missions)without having to search? Quote: 100s of millions in a Exploration site compared to 1-10m I already said exploration is fine. Quote: 5)The few agents give 4-5x the rewards Would be fine if there could be some at every 0.0 station. Quote: 6)"Your" space You have to defend it... Quote: 7)No concord to hinder you. No concord to protect you...but thats not important... Quote: Risk vs Reward: YOU are chosing to risk your ISK and ships by going into combat. Why should CCP reward you for doing so? Oh? Ah? aehhm? You seem to choose not want to life in danger? Why should CCP reward you? In my opinion you totally misunderstood what Risk vs Reward stands for. And it seems you wrote up your "thoughts" without even thinking about what i ment...
Carniflex Caldari Fallout Research Fallout Project	Posted - 2007.11.26 07:24:00 - [30] Some ranting aside in this thread most people with actual experience in 0.0 seem to agree in this thread that it IS still possible to do good isk in 0.0 space (as good as level 4 missions in hi sec at least) however that 0.0 space is not capable of supporting same population density as in empire (agent's shell out encounters for any person who is willing to ask while in 0.0 you have quite limited amount of encounters or NPC's in belts unless you are in good enough true sec to have ore worth mining). I personally don't see it as big problem tho that 0.0 is not capable of supporting same population densities as hi sec space as it is slightly bigger. However capability of getting some agents out there in conquerable stations would go some extent to make alliance 'hubs' capable of supporting higher population densities. I also believe, that getting those agents up there should not be easy nor automatic. Perhaps with upcoming 'proper' faction warfare one could get say outpost upgrade into what it is possible to 'hire' some empire or pirate faction agent for some reasonable fee. I don't think that setting some standings limits for 'inviting' (station holding) corp would be reasonable tho (it would from RP perspective but from practical side of thing it would end up just being your regular alt corp like I'm in just to get around those standings req. what are unrealistic to reach in bigger organizations). Better solution would propably be some kind of declaring support/alliance to some NPC faction from alliance as whole without needing to grind some really unreasonable standings requiments (in worst case we would need to form 'alt alliances' to get around that) altho asking that alliance average is not negative toward that faction might be reasonable (or above some negative number, say -2 to not rule out pirate factions).
Damned Force	Posted - 2007.11.26 10:57:00 - [31] Originally by: Stakhanov Edited by: Stakhanov on 25/11/2007 15:51:36 Originally by: Lord WarATron All my income comes from my high sec empire alt, and it is this that funds my extravagant use of faction modules in pvp. See , that's the problem right here. You are a member of the most powerful alliance in the game , with regional sovereignty over one of the highest rewards 0.0 , enough diplomatic contacts to secure your trading with empire space or other alliances , but you make more by grinding L4s. And you admit that farmer types make more than you - people who don't own any space , don't have any pvp skill or any special connections , no real invested efforts - just the time to grind missions over and over without even needing to pay attention. All CCP needs is the courage to move level 4 missions to lowsec / 0.0 only. Nobody is going to risk officer CNRs there - this will fix the rewards balance. Because money is much less worth than 1 year ago, (for example gist x-type x-large shield booster was around 1 bil, now is around 3 bil) not the lvl4 missions should be nerfed to high sec, but the 0.0 rats should give better reward in loot or in bounty. Or even not the rats, but there should be better reward in 0.0
Carniflex Caldari Fallout Research Fallout Project	Posted - 2007.11.26 11:42:00 - [32] Originally by: Damned Force Because money is much less worth than 1 year ago, (for example gist x-type x-large shield booster was around 1 bil, now is around 3 bil) not the lvl4 missions should be nerfed to high sec, but the 0.0 rats should give better reward in loot or in bounty. Or even not the rats, but there should be better reward in 0.0 Gistii booster price increased bcos CCP removed static complexses thus decreasing their supply, not bcos isk is worth less. And 0.0 rats already have 'better bounty' both in loot and and isk rewards. NPC's worth 1.8 mil in 0.0 are approx 1.2 mil in missions, tank harder and drop crappier loot in missions compared to regular 0.0 versions.
Rawr Cristina Caldari Cult of Rawr	Posted - 2007.11.26 11:55:00 - [33] Originally by: Carniflex Originally by: Damned Force Because money is much less worth than 1 year ago, (for example gist x-type x-large shield booster was around 1 bil, now is around 3 bil) not the lvl4 missions should be nerfed to high sec, but the 0.0 rats should give better reward in loot or in bounty. Or even not the rats, but there should be better reward in 0.0 Gistii booster price increased bcos CCP removed static complexses thus decreasing their supply, not bcos isk is worth less. And 0.0 rats already have 'better bounty' both in loot and and isk rewards. NPC's worth 1.8 mil in 0.0 are approx 1.2 mil in missions, tank harder and drop crappier loot in missions compared to regular 0.0 versions. Yes but you don't have to go through every belt trying to find the Battleship spawns. I've NPCed in 0.0 for ages and although the income was good, I made much, much more from doing L4 Missions. Yes the bounties are less, but there's more of them and at much faster intervals, particually if you have multiple agents (I had 3 L4 Q20 agents in the same station - at one point I had 3 'The Blockade' missions active at the same time, which is over 60mil on the spot. I was lucky to make 50mil on most days NPCing in 0.0, barring the time I lived in Stain (which for some reason threw faction and hauler spawns at me like no tomorrow) -----
Carniflex Caldari Fallout Research Fallout Project	Posted - 2007.11.26 12:28:00 - [34] Originally by: Rawr Cristina Yes but you don't have to go through every belt trying to find the Battleship spawns. I've NPCed in 0.0 for ages and although the income was good, I made much, much more from doing L4 Missions. Yes the bounties are less, but there's more of them and at much faster intervals, particually if you have multiple agents (I had 3 L4 Q20 agents in the same station - at one point I had 3 'The Blockade' missions active at the same time, which is over 60mil on the spot. I was lucky to make 50mil on most days NPCing in 0.0, barring the time I lived in Stain (which for some reason threw faction and hauler spawns at me like no tomorrow) I have found chaining be more effective than just flying from belt to belt hoping to see BS spawns. Altho granted chaining takes considerable time to 'work system in'. It was possible to get around 50 mil/h in i1y in querious a long while ago (it's pretty good 0.0 with reasonable amount of belts and it was not a big problem to find those approx 30 1.5 to 1.8 mil bounty BS's needed to reach that 50 mil/h figure. Peak rewards would be ofc higher, but they kinda average out over time (same as you can get insane isk/h numbers if you assume that you will get worlds collide all day long, but in reality it kinda averages out). In really good days you could get up to 75 mil/h or so (without counting loot) altho it was relatively rare (to get that many 1.5+ Bs spawns in all belts). Main problem with that 'chaining' is that your isk/h plummets to hell as soon as you have to share. Thus population density 0.0 can reliably support is considerably lower (well ok you can mine or umm.. explore nowdays also, but those are also finite resources) while one good agent can support almost unlimited population density (until lag gets too bad). It is not problem of hi sec however but problem of finite resources vs unlimited resources. I'm ofcource also also slightly biased as my main source of income is level 4 missions where it is not big problem getting 50 mil/h also (2 accounts with CNR's so around 25 mil/h per character altho 30 - 40 mil/h per character are also reasonable figures with pimped ride and ability to pay attention to both of those characters reasonably), with peak rewards being up to 100 mil/h (altho that, like faction spawns also kinda averages out) if you get lucky and get 2x worlds collide in row (I do it in 30 minutes without looting with 2 accounts). If you can pick only 'good' missions then you can indeed get also quite high isk/h numbers.
d026 THE LEGION OF STEEL WARRIORS.... R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.11.26 13:05:00 - [35] Edited by: d026 on 26/11/2007 13:07:11 Originally by: Carniflex I have found chaining be more effective than just flying from belt to belt hoping to see BS spawns. From my experience chaining only works in < -0.7 systems. for example in a -0.3 you probably get a tripple 600k bs spawn all 3-4 hours (which is not worth keeping imho) the rest of the time you shoot cruiser spawns. so to get a nice chain going in acceptable time (that means tripple plus 1mil spawns in every belt within 2-3 hours) you need to bee in a extremely low true sec system. now lets see how many such systems with at least enough belts for a steady isk stream we have in geminate: its 3-4 systems which are constantly overfarmed compared to 500 systems over -0.4 which are just crap and not worth npcing there if you are serious about earning isk.
Carniflex Caldari Fallout Research Fallout Project	Posted - 2007.11.26 13:17:00 - [36] Originally by: d026 Edited by: d026 on 26/11/2007 13:07:11 Originally by: Carniflex I have found chaining be more effective than just flying from belt to belt hoping to see BS spawns. From my experience chaining only works in < -0.7 systems. for example in a -0.3 you probably get a tripple 600k bs spawn all 3-4 hours (which is not worth keeping imho) the rest of the time you shoot cruiser spawns. so to get a nice chain going in acceptable time (that means tripple plus 1mil spawns in every belt within 2-3 hours) you need to bee in a extremely low true sec system. now lets see how many such systems with at least enough belts for a steady isk stream we have in geminate: its 3-4 systems which are constantly overfarmed compared to 500 systems over -0.4 which are just crap and not worth npcing there if you are serious about earning isk. i1y area was indeed very low true sec so that might explain why I had impression it's good tacticks. I do have acsess currently to around -0.2 true sec, but I have not tried chaining there myself to be honest, as I have been kinda tied up in hi sec over the past year babysitting R&D tower for my corp and running level 4 missions to fund my other activities.
d026 THE LEGION OF STEEL WARRIORS.... R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.11.26 13:37:00 - [37] Edited by: d026 on 26/11/2007 13:37:46 Originally by: Carniflex Originally by: d026 Edited by: d026 on 26/11/2007 13:07:11 Originally by: Carniflex I have found chaining be more effective than just flying from belt to belt hoping to see BS spawns. From my experience chaining only works in < -0.7 systems. for example in a -0.3 you probably get a tripple 600k bs spawn all 3-4 hours (which is not worth keeping imho) the rest of the time you shoot cruiser spawns. so to get a nice chain going in acceptable time (that means tripple plus 1mil spawns in every belt within 2-3 hours) you need to bee in a extremely low true sec system. now lets see how many such systems with at least enough belts for a steady isk stream we have in geminate: its 3-4 systems which are constantly overfarmed compared to 500 systems over -0.4 which are just crap and not worth npcing there if you are serious about earning isk. i1y area was indeed very low true sec so that might explain why I had impression it's good tacticks. I do have acsess currently to around -0.2 true sec, but I have not tried chaining there myself to be honest, as I have been kinda tied up in hi sec over the past year babysitting R&D tower for my corp and running level 4 missions to fund my other activities. nahh you are right. if you have a good system with nice juicy bs spawns 0.0 ratting (chaining) probably tops lvl4 whoring. but its almost impossible to get such system and its even more impossible to not having to share it with 50 alliance members who also know about the system:)
Ulstan	Posted - 2007.11.26 17:00:00 - [38] There's not much wrong with 0.0. 1) Make far more systems have max negative true security. The ones that don't have a low true sec value are worthless anyway, and this will help with population density. 2) More asteroid belts, both for ratting, and mining. Add some actually valuable ores to mine in 0.0. Super duper veldspar perhaps? As long as the drone regions keep isogen, noxcium, and zydrine prices in the crapper, not much else to do. 3) Agents in outposts. This will also help with population density. Sure ratting in true null sec is more profitable if only one guy is doing it, but missions will at least give multiple players the option to do something.
Minmatar Escapee	Posted - 2007.11.26 17:09:00 - [39] To the OP, it's sad and true. More instant isk from high-sec missioning than low-sec, more isk to be had spamming complexes for billion isk modules (nothing like seeing alts selling 5 or more 1.8 billion isk mods each week to boost your faith in eve), and people running missions like mad in 0.0 for faction implants -snake spammers. Remove all faction/deadspace mods from static complexes, all pirate implants from LP stores, all faction mods from LP stores. Boost the loot tables for 0.0. Maybe CCP could have their economist run a detailed analysis of where all the uber mods are spawning. Some areas just seem a bit more profitable than others.
Cyberus Caldari Wreckless Abandon Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.11.26 17:55:00 - [40] i say this : Remote communication
d026 THE LEGION OF STEEL WARRIORS.... R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.11.26 19:25:00 - [41] Originally by: Minmatar Escapee Remove all faction/deadspace mods from static complexes, all pirate implants from LP stores, all faction mods from LP stores. so signed!
Chi Quan DEFCON. Phoenix Allianz	Posted - 2007.11.26 22:23:00 - [42] you forget something: if you team up, 0.0 is far more profitable than mission running -- Tempus fugit -- quote spiralJunkie: it doesn't matter how you pronounce it, it still shoots you in the face

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