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OH MAH GOD!!~! WTF HAPPENED TO PALADIN????!?!?!?!?!?

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Avon Caldari Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.11.25 23:28:00 - [31] Edited by: Avon on 25/11/2007 23:28:39 Originally by: Stakhanov What a thread. Maybe the damage bonus was implemented because it works best along with the web bonus ? Durrrrr. ^ This If you target is crawling along, and you are using pulse (because, like, web .. close range .. er .. yeah), you aren't going to be screaming for moar tracking. Edit: Cause, you like know that stuff is pretty slow with a 99% web on it, right? Eve-Online: The Text Adventure
Ma Raia'l Amarr PIE Inc.	Posted - 2007.11.26 00:42:00 - [32] Edited by: Ma Raia''l on 26/11/2007 00:43:58 Even with the damage bonus, the Paladin is still the 'loladin'. The web bonus basically makes an MWD, or at the very least an AB, a requirement. That is bad for an Amarrian BS with all the cap and fitting issues we have. Not to mention that a web bonus is a Minmatar racial bonus, not Amarrian. On top of that, pulses have the worst close range tracking. To offset this they have a comparatively high optimal. The "optimal advantage" that Amarrian pulses have only really manifests itself at the battleship level; below a large pulse, the optimal on pulses gives it no real advantage over any other close range weapon. So why does CCP want to get rid of one of the few advantages Amarrians battleships have by giving the Paladin a web bonus, and thus forcing it t fight at sub-13km ranges? It doesn't make sense. And while we're on the subject of not making sense, why the 7.5% rep repair amount bonus? Isn't that a racial Gallente bonus? I know the arguement goes that a rep repair amount of more beficial than a resistance bonus when it comes to missions, but these ships weren't designed with missions in mind(please, please tell me where a dev said that). What they were designed for, and I'm practically quoting devs here, was attrition warfare and deep deployments behind enemy lines. You generally want a better resist tank than you want a repair amount tank, given how long battles generally take and the kind of battles you generally find. If anything, the Paladin should be changed to the following: * 5% bonus to capacitor capacity per Amarr BS level * 5% bonus to large energy turret damage per Amarr BS level * 5% bonus to armor resistance per Marauder level * 7.5% bonus to large energy turret tracking per Marauder level * Role bonus: 100% bonus to large energy turret damage * Role bonus: 100% bonus to range and velocity of tractor beams That's the web amount bonus being changed to a 5% damage bonus, the 7.5% rep repair amount changed to a 5% resistance bonus, and the 7.5% tracking bonus brought back. Now, it is very important that the 5% damage bonus is per Amarr BS level. That means it won't need Mauraders V to be on par with the other Muaraders. Some may say "Hey, that's just a big Adabbon". Well, yes, it kind of is. But the Abaddon is just a big geddon.
Mr Friendly That it Should Come to This Derek Knows Us	Posted - 2007.11.26 00:52:00 - [33] Originally by: Crumplecorn We need a special forum for special people. Somewhere that isn't here. damn, that's so sig-worthy... Save EveTV, please. Sign to ask CCP to fund EveTV!
iiOs	Posted - 2007.11.26 02:13:00 - [34] does it matter , golem and kronos still > others
5pinDizzy	Posted - 2007.11.26 02:23:00 - [35] Sorry I'm not head over heals over the Marauders, level 4 missions were already about the easiest way to make quick safe isk, and these ships will turn the already semi-easy level 4's into snoozefests. Then if they increase the difficulty of those said missions to compensate, everyone else with more conventional battleships suffer.
Anja Lind Caldari United Forces	Posted - 2007.11.26 03:11:00 - [36] Originally by: Ma Raia'l * 5% bonus to capacitor capacity per Amarr BS level * 5% bonus to large energy turret damage per Amarr BS level * 5% bonus to armor resistance per Marauder level * 7.5% bonus to large energy turret tracking per Marauder level * Role bonus: 100% bonus to large energy turret damage * Role bonus: 100% bonus to range and velocity of tractor beams I wish CCP would listen to you, but they won't. Perhaps something else, even. Maybe no direct damage bonus, but, say, a 5% reduction in PG use of large energy turrets per level of Marauders so fitting Tachs isn't such an incredible bastard.
KarGard	Posted - 2007.11.26 03:31:00 - [37] Edited by: KarGard on 26/11/2007 03:31:31 Originally by: Anja Lind a 5% reduction in PG use of large energy turrets per level of Marauders so fitting Tachs isn't such an incredible bastard.[/quot Too bad that would make it completley unbalanced.
Anja Lind Caldari United Forces	Posted - 2007.11.26 03:43:00 - [38] Originally by: KarGard Edited by: KarGard on 26/11/2007 03:31:31 Originally by: Anja Lind a 5% reduction in PG use of large energy turrets per level of Marauders so fitting Tachs isn't such an incredible bastard.[/quot Too bad that would make it completley unbalanced. You mean, bring it up to DPS spec with... every other marauder?
Lock out Bald Industrial Corporation	Posted - 2007.11.26 03:49:00 - [39] Originally by: Ma Raia'l * 5% bonus to capacitor capacity per Amarr BS level * 5% bonus to large energy turret damage per Amarr BS level * 5% bonus to armor resistance per Marauder level * 7.5% bonus to large energy turret tracking per Marauder level * Role bonus: 100% bonus to large energy turret damage * Role bonus: 100% bonus to range and velocity of tractor beams Bingo. This is much more Amarrian than the current implementation.
Dred'Pirate Jesus Amarr Ministry of War	Posted - 2007.11.26 04:12:00 - [40] Originally by: Avon Edited by: Avon on 25/11/2007 23:28:39 Originally by: Stakhanov What a thread. Maybe the damage bonus was implemented because it works best along with the web bonus ? Durrrrr. ^ This If you target is crawling along, and you are using pulse (because, like, web .. close range .. er .. yeah), you aren't going to be screaming for moar tracking. Edit: Cause, you like know that stuff is pretty slow with a 99% web on it, right? Eh.. They ain't interested in facts they just want to mindlessly flame.. Liking these bonuses thank you very much.. Originally by: David Hackworth ò If you find yourself in a fair fight, you didn't plan your mission properly.
Eternal Hatred Amarr Pantsu Garu Limited Technologies	Posted - 2007.11.26 07:02:00 - [41] Originally by: Ma Raia'l * 5% bonus to capacitor capacity per Amarr BS level * 5% bonus to large energy turret damage per Amarr BS level * 5% bonus to armor resistance per Marauder level * 7.5% bonus to large energy turret tracking per Marauder level * Role bonus: 100% bonus to large energy turret damage * Role bonus: 100% bonus to range and velocity of tractor beams This. CCP please? __________________________________________ I'm a well known whorum warriors alt and my lucky number is 961309. It's great being an Amarr
Whoa Bundy hirr Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2007.11.26 07:32:00 - [42] Originally by: Mister Xerox You rendered your argument moot. At Marauder V that's 125% damage bonus for large energy turrets. That's some pretty heavy damage output, even if it is only for 4 turrets. Correct me if i'm wrong but isn't it ((Damage + 100%) + 25%) pretty much making it +150%? Or did they lie about the double damage bonus? .................... Speed tank works very well... That's because your target can't hit you as your sorry butt tucks your tail between your legs while you wail out into the distance, sissy boy
Verlaine Glariant Knights of the Flame Knights Of the Southerncross	Posted - 2007.11.26 07:49:00 - [43] lol @ the deformed 1st page of this thread. Verlaine Glariant. Tactical Weapons Specialist.
goodby4u Logistic Technologies Incorporated	Posted - 2007.11.26 08:13:00 - [44] Its pink too last time i checked...
Liv Forever	Posted - 2007.11.26 08:23:00 - [45] Paladins have actually been given a significant dmg buff when Retribution specced. Holy shock paladins should fair well too now that 30% of healing power translates to dmg. I agree-nerf Paladins
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2007.11.26 08:26:00 - [46] Originally by: Mister Xerox At Marauder V that's 125% damage bonus for large energy turrets. That's some pretty heavy damage output, even if it is only for 4 turrets. Actually, it's +150%, or 2.5 Math ? 2*1.25. Simple. C\|S\|I\|N\|x.
Avon Caldari Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.11.26 09:29:00 - [47] Edited by: Avon on 26/11/2007 10:01:59 Originally by: goodby4u Its pink too last time i checked... No, more a burned orange colour .. and everyone knows that an orange is a close range fruit, whereas a banana is more your long range sniping with tachs kinda foodstuff. I think fruit game balance is certainly the way to go. The arguement about "typical" or "racial" bonuses is a little flawed btw. There are plenty of ships which take roles and bonuses from other races, even some other Amarrian ships do this. The Amarrians are not so dumb as to miss the tactical implications of being able to stop your enemy .. especially as their racial foe flies fast ships. If anything you would have expected them to embrace this technology sooner. Eve-Online: The Text Adventure
Kagura Nikon Minmatar Infinity Enterprises Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.11.26 10:04:00 - [48] When your trackign is already higher than the enemy transbversal, no extra trackign will help you. The hit quality if a function that has value when trackign is < transversal. So Damage is >>>> trackign when fighting anything big. If brute force doesn't solve your problem... you are not using enough
Kagura Nikon Minmatar Infinity Enterprises Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.11.26 10:05:00 - [49] Originally by: Eternal Hatred Originally by: Ma Raia'l * 5% bonus to capacitor capacity per Amarr BS level * 5% bonus to large energy turret damage per Amarr BS level * 5% bonus to armor resistance per Marauder level * 7.5% bonus to large energy turret tracking per Marauder level * Role bonus: 100% bonus to large energy turret damage * Role bonus: 100% bonus to range and velocity of tractor beams This. CCP please? woudl be nice, but would be overpowered. Be fair. A ship with no firing issues and all those qualities would be very uber. If brute force doesn't solve your problem... you are not using enough
Amberly Coteaz Amarr Blood Corsair's	Posted - 2007.11.26 10:24:00 - [50] Originally by: Kagura Nikon Originally by: Eternal Hatred Originally by: Ma Raia'l * 5% bonus to capacitor capacity per Amarr BS level * 5% bonus to large energy turret damage per Amarr BS level * 5% bonus to armor resistance per Marauder level * 7.5% bonus to large energy turret tracking per Marauder level * Role bonus: 100% bonus to large energy turret damage * Role bonus: 100% bonus to range and velocity of tractor beams This. CCP please? woudl be nice, but would be overpowered. Be fair. A ship with no firing issues and all those qualities would be very uber. Bonuses * 5% bonus to large hybrid turret damage per Gallente BS level * 2% bonus to stasis webifier velocity factor per Gallente BS level * 7.5% bonus to armor repair amount per Marauder level * 7.5% bonus to large hybrid turret tracking per Marauder level * Role bonus: 100% bonus to large hybrid turret damage * Role bonus: 100% bonus to range and velocity of tractor beams If you find yourself in a fair fight, something has gone wrong
Shadowsword COLSUP Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2007.11.26 11:48:00 - [51] Edited by: Shadowsword on 26/11/2007 11:54:05 Originally by: N1fty Originally by: Chaplain Havok [More Tracking = More DPS because you hit more. It may not look that way on quickfit, or to all you newbies obsessd with "lol omg wtf DPS", but to people like myself who have been playing for a long time, I'll take the tracking bonus over the damage. ESPECIALLY in this nano era we live in. Consider this: When you fit a damage mod, you gain about 25% more dps, but you also get 11% additionnal cap usage by your weapons. When you fit a tracking comp, you get 30% tracking, or 15% optimal, which is always nice to have when you don't need more tracking. Since battleships generally have more damage mods fitted than tracking mods (espescially with the script chage that will nerf sniping to oblivion), the way the stacking penalty and typical fits works favor ship damage bonuses over ship tracking bonuses. Not happy with the Paladin's damage bonus? replace a cap recharger by a tracking comp, and a damage mod by a cap power relay, and there you go: More cap, and a tracking that you can convert to optimal when it suits you... To resume: Damage bonus >> tracking bonus. ------------------------------------------ What is Oomph? It the sound Amarr players makes when they get kicked in the ribs.
Shadowsword COLSUP Tau Ceti Federation	Posted - 2007.11.26 11:51:00 - [52] Edited by: Shadowsword on 26/11/2007 11:53:21 Originally by: Avon Edited by: Avon on 25/11/2007 23:28:39 Originally by: Stakhanov What a thread. Maybe the damage bonus was implemented because it works best along with the web bonus ? Durrrrr. ^ This If you target is crawling along, and you are using pulse (because, like, web .. close range .. er .. yeah), you aren't going to be screaming for moar tracking. Edit: Cause, you like know that stuff is pretty slow with a 99% web on it, right? In fact, I think it's a 100% web. I webbed some destroyers and frigs on Sisi while testing a paladin, and they were crawling at 1 m/s, from 250+ m/s. For missions, beams are probably a more sensible choice than pulses. ------------------------------------------ What is Oomph? It the sound Amarr players makes when they get kicked in the ribs.
Neamus	Posted - 2007.11.26 12:02:00 - [53] Just bin it, take the Paladin out of the game and just give the other 3 races tech II BS. Leaving it in like this is just a cruel joke against a race that is already the laughing stock of the game. Tell people that you play Amarr in eve and even in RL they'll point and laugh as you walk down the street. Anti Amarr slogans spray painted on your front door, sea gulls deliberately targeting your car, parents disowning you etc..
Bentula	Posted - 2007.11.26 15:04:00 - [54] Originally by: N1fty Originally by: Bentula Originally by: N1fty As said above it affects your QUALITY of hits. Just because you got a hit doesnt mean you got as much damage as you could have done if you had better tracking. Put down your DPS calculator and THINK. Ehrm no. Lasers already have good tracking at their optimal ranges, and way below its optimal this ship has a very powerful webbing bonus. So no, extra damage > extra tracking past a certain amount of tracking. And your amount of normal, wrecking or scratching hits is not affected by tracking much, only clear misses are. The fact that you have DPS on only 4 guns instead of across 7 means that a miss is a LOT more costly in terms of DPS. And I think you underestimate the effect of tracking on your DPS. And i think you misunderstand probability. A x% chance to miss is a x% chance to miss, no matter wether you have 1 turret or 1 million. You will still miss 5% of all your shots, missing a single shot with 4 turrets is twice as bad as missing a single with 8, but it will also only occur half as often. Also a tracking bonus is more or less useless vs non nanoed ships. And agaisnt nanoed ships not even a dual tracking bonus would help a BS. You say the extra tracking is better than a full damage bonus for damage cause you get better hits, yet i see no math or evidience to back this up. Against which ships, and in what situations? Fact is i can hit BS just fine even with beam lasers and no tracking boni on current BS, and those ships that fit to speedtank i cant even hit in my mega with trackign bonus. As far as i am concerned, a trackign bonus is nice, but who would trade his damage boni on a hyperion, maelstrom or abaddon for a trackign bonus? All your tracking will be completly useless if your enemy can tank you till he runs out of charges.
Derek Caldari Umbra Congregatio Interstellar Alcohol Conglomerate	Posted - 2007.11.26 16:15:00 - [55] Originally by: Anja Lind Originally by: Ma Raia'l * 5% bonus to capacitor capacity per Amarr BS level * 5% bonus to large energy turret damage per Amarr BS level * 5% bonus to armor resistance per Marauder level * 7.5% bonus to large energy turret tracking per Marauder level * Role bonus: 100% bonus to large energy turret damage * Role bonus: 100% bonus to range and velocity of tractor beams This sounds better to me, the fact that there are no kin/exp crystals means amarr need the extra dps to even stand a chance.
TranquilityOne	Posted - 2007.11.27 04:02:00 - [56] oh lawd, cant we all just revel in this great glorious change? I know I will be. Abaddon + Hyperion = ZOMG pwnboat. Maybe. If no jammers. But hey, if people dun like paladins then it might be cheaper yes? I know the Kronos and/or golem will be the top 2. So more joy for us yesyes?
War Bear Sharks With Frickin' Laser Beams Mercenary Coalition	Posted - 2007.11.27 06:22:00 - [57] I swear to god I read the title and thought the OP was ****ing about WoW. 0_o Everything is funny with the Benny Hill theme song*
Yukisa	Posted - 2007.11.27 06:48:00 - [58] Originally by: TranquilityOne oh lawd, cant we all just revel in this great glorious change? I know I will be. Abaddon + Hyperion = ZOMG pwnboat. Maybe. If no jammers. But hey, if people dun like paladins then it might be cheaper yes? I know the Kronos and/or golem will be the top 2. So more joy for us yesyes? Cost is tied in to invention costs and building mats. Even if such a ship is the suck, it won't be cheap, it simply won't be made in the first place. Paladin is better now than it was before without the dmg boost. I had to rant heaps for it to be changed.. if only CCP would get rid of the almost negligible 5% cap bonus (it needs that bonus built it to offset the stupid energy use of lasers imo) and replace it with something useful.
Okkie2	Posted - 2007.11.27 08:30:00 - [59] Originally by: Bentula Edited by: Bentula on 26/11/2007 15:08:48 Also a tracking bonus is more or less useless vs non nanoed ships. And agaisnt nanoed ships not even a dual tracking bonus would help a BS. You say the extra tracking is better than a full damage bonus for damage cause you get better hits, yet i see no math or evidience to back this up. Against which ships, and in what situations? You can use the guide mentioned earlier. Although the description in the first 4 pages isn't 100% acurate, page 5 with the calculations is. If you fill in some numbers you'll see tracking not only increases the chance to hit, but also the damage. I tried some calculations and it did show that against a fast moving target (compared to your guns tracking) a tracking bonus is better, against a slow moving target a DPS bonus is better. I don't often use guns so i'm not sure which one is better though
Avon Caldari Black Nova Corp Band of Brothers	Posted - 2007.11.27 09:31:00 - [60] Originally by: Yukisa if only CCP would get rid of the almost negligible 5% cap bonus (it needs that bonus built it to offset the stupid energy use of lasers imo) and replace it with something useful. You do know that the cap bonus and high cap usage are because everyone used to fit lasers to anything they could? The laser was intended as an Amarrian weapon, and Amarrian ships, unlike the other races, did not get a damage bonus on any of their ships (Geddon's ROF bonus is arguably better then a damage bonus, but the damage / cap ratio remains unchanged). Because of the lack of damage bonus on Amarrian ships, laser did 25% more base damage. For the other races to get the same base turret damage they would have to have their ship skill (5% damage per level) at 5. People noticed this, and all of a sudden Eve was full of laser Megathrons, and laser Ravens (it used to be a gunboat). In order to balance lasers (so that they would become an Amarrian prefered weapon again), the cap usage of lasers was greatly increased, as was the cap of Amarrian ships, and cap bonuses appeared. The Amarrians, however, knew that in a fight cap was life, and so fitted projectile turrets so that they could shoot and have uber amounts of cap to tank with. Ever since that day they have ***ed and moaned that they they are the weakest, most lulz, race in Eve, and they need a boost. They should be the "cap" race (never intended), and lasers should be uber again (which they never really were for Amarr .. well, except that sharpshooting/heatsink stacking thing), and they should be able to run their uber tanks too. If they aren't moaning about all of that, they are ***ing that lasers only do two damage types EM & THERM (so do hybrids KIN & THERM), and that they are the two most tanked types .. which isn't actually true either. They moan about Caldari doing all damage types with missiles, but have missile ships themselves. They moan about Gallente and drones, and yet are pretty handy with drones themselves too. They moan about Minmatar being too .. er .. well, just moan about in general really.. The real problem with Amarr is that there is no real problem with Amarr .. If there was it could be identified and rectified. Amarr ships are probably the most balanced in the game. Complaining that a Paladin is not as good as a Kronos is a feeble arguement, when it is so apparent that the Kronos is overpowered. I fly all races ships, and I fly Amarr by choice more than any other race. The great thing about Amarr is that they are, on the whole, well balanced. Eve-Online: The Text Adventure

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It's great being an Amarr