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Dark Shikari Caldari Imperium Technologies Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2007.11.29 22:40:00 - [61] Originally by: Shar Tegral Originally by: Siri Blue You know, I prefer playing the game INGAME and earning ISK instead of running numbers for a few selected people that think they are the Official CCP stockmarket control squad so that they may **** off over a few pages of fancy looking numbers. I prefer to actually do business over doing hypotetical calculations about how the effect of a bag of rice falling off a hauler in minmatar space would be on my venture. Taking this attitude when you need us, not we need you, is not going to help. You don't have the rep for it and this will likely sink you. This. 23 Member EVE Video makers: save bandwidth! Use the H.264 AutoEncoder! (updated)
Havok Pierce Gallente D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.11.30 00:00:00 - [62] Edited by: Havok Pierce on 30/11/2007 00:04:35 As a possible investor who's been here for some time, I have the following notes: -) You mentioned that "3-5B is something you could just come up with, so you don't really need an IPO for that. Okay, fine. The sum of the more respected members of this forum (people that do not usually agree with each other) is thus: asking for 70 billion ISK with your credentials and business plan (or lack thereof) is asking too much. What you *SHOULD DO* is attempt to raise 3-5B in public ISK by selling shares of stock (keeping true to the reporting guidelines we've come to prefer), get a respected third party to provide some security (mostly BPO lockdowns once they are acquired), and build and sell your ships. Allow buyback later, if you so please. Once you have established yourself, write up expansion plans and ask the public for more ISK (via sales of shares of more stock in your corporation) and perform expansion opportunities there. -) Tech2 Ship Production is a bear market, even now (this is my own opinion). -) Should you downscale the scope, introduce some security (not that we don't trust you, but, well, it makes the investors cozier), and double-check your numbers and projections (preferably with a consultant), I am sure you would find the atmosphere around here to be more than welcoming (I, for one, would put my ISK where my... hands... are and stump up for a couple hundred million's worth of shares). -) Most of the point of asking the public for ISK is because you either cannot or do not wish to use your personal funds for a business startup/expansion. -) By going ahead with this, you will know that you are working for us, the investors. -) Please do not use the word "guaranteed". It makes me (as an investor) nervous. A better (IMHO) phrasing is: "According to my calculations and projections, I believe I can earn a profit (averaging XX% above the total inputs), YY% of which will be disbursed to shareholders on a monthly/(bi-)weekly/daily/hourly basis." Phrasing as above would be closer to the truth. -) Oh, and make sure you keep track of your own self-investments. -) I recommend you restart your discussion thread (asking a moderator to lock this one) once you get your plan revised (and ready for people to start giving isk). At the same time, start a thread in the WTS thread explicitly for the purchase of shares (and cross-link them). -) You should edit your thread title to read "DO NOT SEND ISK", until you have assembled a plan that will assuage the concerns of most of the investors. When in doubt, write it out. Please read: IPO Guide Thread IPO Template Thread Originally by: CCP Wrangler There's a Community petition category??
Dr Slurm General Commodities	Posted - 2007.11.30 00:12:00 - [63] Well now that I can see there is no intention of creating any sort of decent business plan I am not inclined to invest. I would suggest others not chance the risk either. c'est la vive. It's better then Quafe!
Siri Blue Gallente Arachnea Phoenix Battalion Phalanx Alliance	Posted - 2007.11.30 00:20:00 - [64] Originally by: Dr Slurm Well now that I can see there is no intention of creating any sort of decent business plan I am not inclined to invest. I would suggest others not chance the risk either. c'est la vive. Um, I said I will be working on the polishing, give me a little time
Havok Pierce Gallente D00M. Triumvirate.	Posted - 2007.11.30 00:25:00 - [65] Originally by: Siri Blue Originally by: Dr Slurm Well now that I can see there is no intention of creating any sort of decent business plan I am not inclined to invest. I would suggest others not chance the risk either. c'est la vive. Um, I said I will be working on the polishing, give me a little time Please edit the title of this thread, then, and have a ISD person lock it, so as to give your plan a clean place to present. Originally by: CCP Wrangler There's a Community petition category??
Dr Slurm General Commodities	Posted - 2007.11.30 00:29:00 - [66] Originally by: Siri Blue Originally by: Dr Slurm Well now that I can see there is no intention of creating any sort of decent business plan I am not inclined to invest. I would suggest others not chance the risk either. c'est la vive. Um, I said I will be working on the polishing, give me a little time Fair enough. I found this site to be quite useful. I know its for RL stuff but you would be surprised how much of it still applies. Or you could try fleshing out Hexxx's template. Personally I don't think the people in this thread are giving you as hard a time as they normally would. You should try reading Miss Fiona's IPO thread, 8+ pages. I think the investors in this forum expect a proportionate amount of time invested on your part in relation to the amount of ISK you are asking for. 70b is a lot for an unknown. Hell 10-20b is still lot. Pile on top of that the fact you are only offering 4% ROI guaranteed and I think it scares a lot of people away. It's better then Quafe!
Siri Blue Gallente Arachnea Phoenix Battalion Phalanx Alliance	Posted - 2007.11.30 01:39:00 - [67] Ok...once again...I am giving out Bonds! Bonds are supposed to be low risk, low/medium profit investments. I'm not selling any IPO, I was just explaining (trying to) what I was going to do with the ISK put into my hands. I just wrote this to an interested investor: Well, I guarantee the 4% and the buyback with my own work, should the BPOs really lose value, I'll cover that with personally carebearing my ass off :/ Its a BOND after all, not a share, so there should be no risk for the investors... Well, the only real risk would be me scamming everyone but I don't see the reason why to destroy my reputation over silly Game money :/ Of course I know there are many scammers, so this point still remains a risk for investors of course but it is with every investment. Also 4% is the minimum profits and after 12+ months you get a 100% buyback option. As I said, I will try to make my venture description more shiney for you guys but I'm still giving out Bonds, which are supposed to be secure (as much as it can be in Eve that is)
Shar Tegral	Posted - 2007.11.30 02:05:00 - [68] Originally by: Siri Blue Ok...once again...I am giving out Bonds! Bonds are supposed to be low risk, low/medium profit investments. I'm not selling any IPO, I was just explaining (trying to) what I was going to do with the ISK put into my hands. To-mah-to, To-may-to. You are doing an ipo. IPO as defined by the Eve market community. It does not matter what "term" you use for the vehicle of your financial project, what simply matters is you are coming to the public making some sort of offer in exchange for some isk. This is an example of you not listening to more experienced heads around here. Originally by: Siri Blue Well, I guarantee the 4% and the buyback with my own work, should the BPOs really lose value, I'll cover that with personally carebearing my ass off :/ Its a BOND after all, not a share, so there should be no risk for the investors... Well, the only real risk would be me scamming everyone but I don't see the reason why to destroy my reputation over silly Game money :/ Of course I know there are many scammers, so this point still remains a risk for investors of course but it is with every investment. Firstly, bonds are not "by definition" low risk low/medium profit investments. There are junk bonds after all. Secondly, your personal guarantee is something undefined and non-qualified. I might trust you because I know you in more than passing. That still doesn't say you are trustworthy. You are being quite hardheaded and obstinate. I would not say you are ignoring advice, you respond to it, but you are flying into the face of the criticism and from where I sit... there is nothing to be gained from discounting all of the very good advice you have been receiving. Let me conclude, this is one of the reasons why it is useful to interact with people experienced in this forum. Not because you don't know what you are doing with production, marketing, and in game activities. You just are not communicating in the same language with people. You are insisting these are bonds and we don't care what you call them. We just care about terms, conditions, etc., etc.. Taikun's Lost Bet
Dark Shikari Caldari Imperium Technologies Firmus Ixion	Posted - 2007.11.30 02:12:00 - [69] Originally by: Siri Blue Ok...once again...I am giving out Bonds! Bonds are supposed to be low risk, low/medium profit investments. Just because you say your bonds are low-risk doesn't make it so. 23 Member EVE Video makers: save bandwidth! Use the H.264 AutoEncoder! (updated)
Shar Tegral	Posted - 2007.11.30 02:22:00 - [70] Originally by: Siri Blue Ok...once again...I am giving out Bonds! Bonds are supposed to be low risk, low/medium profit investments. Originally by: Dark Shikari Just because you say your bonds are low-risk doesn't make it so. Lol... I just realized every junk bond dealer in real life will tell you that his are unfairly rated as "junk". The spider said, to all the flies and other spiders, "It's okay, just come on in to my parlor." Here is proof in point: Siri, I'd like you to give me 5 billion isk. I promise I might give it back to you. It might go to something useful or it might go to something only I know about. I'll look forward to my wallet flashing. Taikun's Lost Bet

Siri Blue Gallente Arachnea Phoenix Battalion Phalanx Alliance	Posted - 2007.11.30 02:58:00 - [71] sigh
Von Ulrich	Posted - 2007.11.30 03:49:00 - [72] Originally by: Siri Blue sigh That is one response I guess.
Shar Tegral	Posted - 2007.11.30 03:51:00 - [73] Originally by: Siri Blue sigh Well, how about I try saying it this way. If someone you didn't know asked you for alot of isk how would you respond? You need to step outside of yourself and look at things as if you don't know you. Then you'll see what everyone else is seeing. Taikun's Lost Bet
Astorothe Aperture Science Industries	Posted - 2007.11.30 04:00:00 - [74] I get a little confused with Bonds in Eve. In my humble opinion, there are no Bonds, no IPO's - just ISK making schemes run by mostly unknown and possibly dodgy characters. When I do invest in an Eve scheme - I expect some shares in the very minimum. It's the only game mechanic we have so I like to use it. It of course doesn't lessen the risk of being scammed - only my own intuition and decisions can lessen the risk. I just think we need to call these things for what they are, and avoid using real life business terms because they don't really apply. I think they are used in an attempt to build trust where there isn't any. My 2c. Thanks for coming, I'm here till Thursday. Eve Web Design \| PerthChat \| GD for grown-ups
Ricdic Caldari Corporate Research And Production Pty Ltd Zzz	Posted - 2007.11.30 04:09:00 - [75] Originally by: Astorothe Thanks for coming, I'm here till Thursday. As someone with a 2 year old son you got a little lol out of me Need Empire Research Slots. Click here
Kylar Renpurs Dusk Blade	Posted - 2007.11.30 04:12:00 - [76] Edited by: Kylar Renpurs on 30/11/2007 04:12:40 Quote: My 2c. Thanks for coming, I'm here till Thursday. Do you do group bookings and private functions? Quote: As someone with a 2 year old son you got a little lol out of me obviously i missed something... OK, more seriously, I agree. Doesn't matter how you dress it up, EVERY business venture in EVE is as follows: Step 1: Ask for ISK Step 2a: Offer nothing in return, except the promise of returning your isk. Step 2b: Offer something of monetary value (blueprint copies a-la BIG (iirc) ) or monthly dividends which you manually pay Step 2c: Offer shares Step 3: ???? Step 4: Profit Step 3 is where you scam or work. And whether it's a loan, bond, share float, security, bank or whatever, it all follows this same pattern, and without better mechanics there's no escaping the fact they are all the same. Improve Market Competition!
Ricdic Caldari Corporate Research And Production Pty Ltd Zzz	Posted - 2007.11.30 04:29:00 - [77] So Kylar you are saying we should tell people not to bother with business plans, securities, people vouching, old reputation, api keys, history, and the likes because the only end result is step 3? Why haven't you invested in DragoRider Tao or Miss Fiona again? I see what you are getting at, but we do all these checks because each one reduces the risk of scam. * A limited API holds the character and his alts accountable and is usable to check SP levels. * A full API shows the clients wallet transactions and journals, good for confirming the person does indeed know his/her industry * A vouch means the risk falls on two people's shoulders, so if #1 falls through then #2 should cover the deficit. Obviously there's always the chance of #1 and #2 failing in which case 2 reputations are damaged rather than one. * A referral may be someone saying that they have dealt with this person to a tune of X isk, or had lots of dealings. It's not something that can be used against the referee. As an example I only just finished a research job for a fairly prominent MD member to the tune of 9b isk. I had full take access to those bpo's at one point. So that person could say "Hey I trusted Ricdic with 9b and I got my isk back." Much like MasterTao could put in a reference for me after saying "Ricdic had the ability to steal my Damnation bpo worth 30b and I got it back" (note: I haven't given it back yet though). * Previous history. In the OP's case he has dealt in a few prize/raffles. These came to maybe a value of 1-2b. If he had access to a significant number of resources within Eve University this would be a perfect opportunity for the Eve University CEO to pipe up and tell us how much access he had. Generally previous history relates to a history with the public or similar. As an example Shiko is mostly owned by EBANK and myself. When Shiko expands we can say "Hey Shiko had 6b of our funds and didn't scam them. He also done XXX with his reporting, excellent communication etc etc. * Character Age. Generally a 40b SP character may sell for 5-10b on the forums. That's not to say we limit people's investments based on this factor. We usually add on a reputation factor and the likes. save mentioning more, in the EBANK forums I put through some of the things we look for when providing loans to customers: Originally by: EBANK Forums * Loan Reason * Character Age * Character History * Altness (determination on how much of an alt the char is) * API Key/s * Multiple Character Credit Check * Character Reference * Character Security (person vouching for you) * Loan History * Fixed Asset Securities * Shares Securities As Kylar has said above, basically this is simply a loan you are looking for. So really you will generally have the same sorts of credit checks made on you as if for a loan or a public investment etc. If someone fits all the above mentioned points a scam will result in a net loss for them. In some cases a scam with a financial gain can still result in a net loss (ie if your second mains are implicated etc) or in terms of reputation lost. Need Empire Research Slots. Click here
Ricdic Caldari Corporate Research And Production Pty Ltd Zzz	Posted - 2007.11.30 04:42:00 - [78] Using the above quote to get an idea on Siri * Loan Reason - Limited Information provided, t2 bpo, unknown which * Character Age - Approximately 2 years * Character History - Some exposure on WTS/Raffle etc, 1-3b * Altness (determination on how much of an alt the char is) - Unverified * API Key/s - Not Provided * Multiple Character Credit Check - No API so not provided * Character Reference - Provided by 2 people. Limited reference * Character Security (person vouching for you) - None * Loan History - None * Fixed Asset Securities - Claims available but not wanting to use * Shares Securities - None, member doesn't participate in this industry So if everything was worth 1 point, your score would be 3/11 scoring as follows - 0.5, 0.5, 1, 0, 0, 0, 1, 0, 0, 0, 0 Now, Riethe probably had a very similar end score to yourself possibly even worse but I and some others made a stupid mistake ignoring this information and as such were burnt. No-one really expects you to meet all the above points in scoring, it's not even a real score card just something I had thrown together for EBANK GD forum (not the same as what we use internally). But if you want 70b of our funds we expect you to make a reasonable attempt to meet as many of the above points as physically possible. Some are far stronger than others like having a security but it all adds up when determining who we invest with. You may not like the way we handle things, but if you come into our house then you accept our rules and regulations. Need Empire Research Slots. Click here
Kylar Renpurs Dusk Blade	Posted - 2007.11.30 05:00:00 - [79] Edited by: Kylar Renpurs on 30/11/2007 05:01:40 Quote: So Kylar you are saying we should tell people not to bother with business plans, securities, people vouching, old reputation, api keys, history, and the likes because the only end result is step 3? Why haven't you invested in DragoRider Tao or Miss Fiona again? I see what you are getting at, but we do all these checks because each one reduces the risk of scam. Eh, my lack of verbosity probably clouded my intent (posting under the nose of the boss ftl). All that stuff is important, whether the person DOES scam or work is an entirely different mechanic. All I was saying was following along with what others have voiced, in that regarding the word "bond" being more secure than "share" in the world of EVE, has no bearing, but a solid business plan does. On the topic of reputation, I'd condsider that a little less, but thats a personal thing. Improve Market Competition!
McRuder Gallente Magnets and Duct Tape	Posted - 2007.11.30 05:38:00 - [80] Quote: Since Inventing Ships did not turn out to be as profitable as I hoped it to be...I now have a character that is able to build a lot of T2 ships...but lacks the prints to do so cause its just not profitable enough to invent most of em ;) And since I don't like wasting things...especially not skills...I decided it'd be a good choice to buy some T2 ship BPOs and start producing T2 ships for a profit... This IPO has no plan. Buy stuff, make stuff, sell stuff, is not a plan. I have no confidence in his ability to plan a proper profitable assembly line. I have no confidence in his ability to do any financial planning as is evident from above quote. Furthermore I do not like the attitude of "I know what I am doing, I am offering you a piece of my pie, so cough up and shut up". This is one thread I will not bother to read again.

Shadarle	Posted - 2007.11.30 08:46:00 - [81] Originally by: Siri Blue sigh I take it people can stop replying as this IPO is now dead in the water? I'm a bit surprised, as a Shar quasi-endorsement usually would have had an IPO doing quite well. It took quite a bit of effort to undermine that so quickly. I can only imagine how bad the reports would have been based on the communication here though. Tanking Setups Compared Stacking Penalty / Resists Explained
Yarden Tajj Lost Industries Capital Alliance	Posted - 2007.11.30 12:30:00 - [82] I have to agree that not a lot of effort went in this IPO / BOND Offering. The fact that the OP doesn't really want to answer questions either and sees the majority of MD Forum Posters as an annouance is disturbing. The OP seems to forget that she needs the investors and not the otherway arround because there are enough alternatives. Also saying 'it's secure' doesn't make it secure I mean would you invest if a random person on the street keeps you standing and talks about an investment opportunity? Perhaps that the OP has to speak to BMBE to take out a loan and buy the BPO's she wants (this will involve that BMBE secures the BPO's). I for one will not even consider an investment until the OP shows that she's WILLING to deal with the questioning process and gives correct answers (other then a sigh).
Siri Blue Gallente Arachnea Phoenix Battalion Phalanx Alliance	Posted - 2007.11.30 13:07:00 - [83] Edited by: Siri Blue on 30/11/2007 13:07:33 Appearently some of you guys are at least as ignorant as I am... I said I will be working on it, but not "today" cause I am VERY tired and exhausted...and that was "yesterday"... Also, I did answer several questions and gave numbers about one specific Gallente ship BPO with expected returns on it. So saying that I don't try to answer questions is rather frustrating.
Yarden Tajj Lost Industries Capital Alliance	Posted - 2007.11.30 13:09:00 - [84] Originally by: Siri Blue Edited by: Siri Blue on 30/11/2007 13:07:33 Appearently some of you guys are at least as ignorant as I am... I said I will be working on it, but not "today" cause I am VERY tired and exhausted...and that was "yesterday"... Also, I did answer several questions and gave numbers about one specific Gallente ship BPO with expected returns on it. So saying that I don't try to answer questions is rather frustrating. Would it be a good idea to perhaps start a new thread for once you got everything written down? (a fresh start so to speak)
northwesten Amarr Trinity Corporate Services	Posted - 2007.11.30 13:39:00 - [85] Originally by: Yarden Tajj Originally by: Siri Blue Edited by: Siri Blue on 30/11/2007 13:07:33 Appearently some of you guys are at least as ignorant as I am... I said I will be working on it, but not "today" cause I am VERY tired and exhausted...and that was "yesterday"... Also, I did answer several questions and gave numbers about one specific Gallente ship BPO with expected returns on it. So saying that I don't try to answer questions is rather frustrating. Would it be a good idea to perhaps start a new thread for once you got everything written down? (a fresh start so to speak) No point This post just shows how narrow minded he is! I mean HOW MANY post going to take to come up with a PLAN? hell what i see he hasn't answer some people question other repeating number a few times. Which to me this guy has a attitude problem. He just screwed him self up! And no point in wasting you time with this. He not listen and busy giving attitude. Free Corporation website? click here Trinity Corporate Services
Siri Blue Gallente Arachnea Phoenix Battalion Phalanx Alliance	Posted - 2007.11.30 14:05:00 - [86] I don't know what people don't understand when I say, give me a little time Also the Eve forums just ate 50% of my overworked plan With these kinds of replies I kind of doubt this is worth my time but then I hope answers like the last one are just exceptions
jongalt	Posted - 2007.11.30 14:24:00 - [87] Originally by: Siri Blue I don't know what people don't understand when I say, give me a little time Also the Eve forums just ate 50% of my overworked plan With these kinds of replies I kind of doubt this is worth my time but then I hope answers like the last one are just exceptions personally, i dont have a problem extending the benefit of the doubt to your business plan, however, when you actively solicit "trust" by requesting "more time", you are spending on a credit line that could be used used more wisely... credibility is finite. spend wisely. if eve forums ate 50% of your plan, then perhaps open office would be a better platform to write your drafts? as for the replies, dont take them personally. whats the point? at best, they are valid critiques of your presentation; at worst, they are self-serving. im sure you can tell the difference. if you think this is bad, try going to art school. they tell you this stuff to your face. all day. (and for the record, i play shadarles role in critique because i cant stand low standards in art - cheers to you, mate.) -jg.
Atherin Gaius Caldari Domini Umbrus VENOM Alliance	Posted - 2007.11.30 14:41:00 - [88] Originally by: Siri Blue Edited by: Siri Blue on 30/11/2007 00:00:15 sigh You know, I prefer playing the game INGAME and earning ISK instead of running numbers for a few selected people that think they are the Official CCP stockmarket control squad so that they may ** off over a few pages of fancy looking numbers. I prefer to actually do business over doing hypotetical calculations about how the effect of a bag of rice falling off a hauler in minmatar space would be on my venture. Quote: Well considering you want to "actually do business" with OUR isk, we want you to hypothetical calculations on how a bag of rice falling off a hauler will affect OUR income. We are also going to want you communicate ruglarly on the status of the business and revenue earned. EVE mimics real life in the market side of the game. I just raised 2.5mil US dollars for a real business and to get that I had to provide mumbers in a spreadsheet outlineing EVERYTHING. Get off your high horse and stop thinking you are special and give us (the people that will be giving you 70billion ISK)what we need to make a determination if you are a good investment. Everything you have been giving us so far is telling us you aren't. Originally by:** Siri Blue That said, I have monitored the T2 ship market for a long time and been busy on it as well with inventing, building and selling a lot of ships. And I've always come out with a profit, whatever I did in Eve. Quote: Maybe you should go back and do what you have been doing in the past then.
Von Ulrich	Posted - 2007.11.30 14:43:00 - [89] Originally by: Siri Blue I don't know what people don't understand when I say, give me a little time Also the Eve forums just ate 50% of my overworked plan With these kinds of replies I kind of doubt this is worth my time but then I hope answers like the last one are just exceptions It is probably poor form, but I would be very interested to know your age and occupation. Getting worked up over these responses seems off to me, the response of one with little real world interaction in the business community or life experiences. I did not see any even remotely unreasonable response by possible investors here. Perhaps as a law student I deal with vastly greater criticism thus what seems to be information requests to me, might seem like the inquisition to you. IMO, You have not in any meaningful manner answered the questions being asked. As the one attempting to sell us, perhaps you should examine why most here are saying you are not providing sufficient information. It could be we are all off base, but most likely your answers leave much to be desired.
Siri Blue Gallente Arachnea Phoenix Battalion Phalanx Alliance	Posted - 2007.11.30 15:09:00 - [90] API Key/s - Not Provided * Multiple Character Credit Check - No API so not provided Could you explain those two points Ricdic? :)



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