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Virgin Media Have Just Screwed EVE

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Andrue Amarr	Posted - 2007.11.28 08:30:00 - [1] Edited by: Andrue on 28/11/2007 08:32:10 Originally by: Dire Lauthris What an utter load of rubbish. Unfortunately this is becoming an ever more widespread tactic by UK ISPs (I'm not sure this happens elsewhere). Sadly it's starting to happen in the US as well although there ISPs are being sued. As for Virgin Media.. Well first of all like several posters I don't understand the OP's description of what VM have supposedly done. You can't control traffic based on the process priority - it's simply a nonesense whichever way you look at it. I think VM are just implementing traffic shaping (which a lot of ISPs across the world do) and for some reason they have made things worse for their ADSL customers. Probably it's because their ADSL customers are using BT's IPStream and VM have cut back on the budget. In effect they are treating those customers as second-class citizens. It's pretty much the attitude that cable companies have always had. They rolled out cable to less than half the country then sat back and tried to live off the profits. If they were still expanding their cable network then making ADSL look bad would be a **ty marketing tactic. Unfortunately they aren't extending their cable networks so it's just penny pinching and pointless. My advice if you're with VM using ADSL is to leave. There are far better ISPs out there that can provide a better service. Leave VM to the cable users. It'll probably be better for everyone if it concentrates on it's cash cow rather than trying to compete in an already saturated ADSL market. -- (Battle hardened industrialist) [Brackley, UK] My budgie can say "ploppy bottom". You have been warned.**
Andrue Amarr	Posted - 2007.11.29 12:07:00 - [2] Originally by: Cailais Virgins announcement - Linkage Thankfully I changed isp provider a few months ago - close call! C. That actually sounds quite reasonable (although it depends on how accurate that description is and if they stick to it). That '5% cause all the hassle' is pretty much in-line with industry experience. [rant]It's a small minority of (and I'll apologise in advance here) greedy little **s that cause the problems. It has always amazed me how much these gits manage to download. That message says some people are downloading 3GB of stuff a night. Wtf? That's 210GB a week! It's sad, though not surprising, that some people abuse networks like that but as I asked a couple of days ago:What it tarnation's name are those dweebs finding that amounts to 210GB a week? That's nearly a 1TB a month. Are they downloading the entire f'ing Internet or something? Are they so stupid as to think someone's going to take it all away one day and force them to browse from local off-line copies?[/rant] -- (Battle hardened industrialist) [Brackley, UK] My budgie can say "ploppy bottom". You have been warned.**
Andrue Amarr	Posted - 2007.11.29 12:08:00 - [3] Originally by: maarud BeThere At the moment, yeah. I'm with them. OTOH with O2BB released and Dana leaving the helm one has to wonder how much longer BeThere will continue run as it does. -- (Battle hardened industrialist) [Brackley, UK] My budgie can say "ploppy bottom". You have been warned.
Andrue Amarr	Posted - 2007.11.29 14:55:00 - [4] Originally by: Shanur Note to self, When switching providers after my move, make sure to agree on a quality of service that assures that at least a given percentage of the bandwidth is 100% guaranteed regardless of the service it is used for. Or that includes "No throthling" in it's contractual terms. Lol! Do you have any idea how hard it will be to get a resedential ISP to even discuss QoS? Even businesses rarely bother. Assuming you can get them agree the cost will be horrendous. And I mean that. Public broadband provision has only been possible at all because it's a contended, no-guarantee service. If you want a decent QoS you are going to be talking about paying hundreds if not thousands of pounds a month. You probably want to be looking at getting a LES although I think now people are recommending a BES. Knock yourself out :) -- (Battle hardened industrialist) [Brackley, UK] My budgie can say "ploppy bottom". You have been warned.
Andrue Amarr	Posted - 2007.11.29 15:06:00 - [5] Originally by: Maximada Virgin Media Problem FIXED!!! Right Ive been speaking to Martyn Cook who is one of the leading broadband and cable engineers in the UK. I told him about the problems that we were having and he gave me a workaround that fixes it. Basically the new filtering that Virgin uses to set priorities on a line only picks up Interleaved traffic (if you dont know what interleaving is google it) I know exactly what interleaving is all about and it seems an equally stupid/impossible way to prioritise things. Interleaving is used in the local loop by the DSLAM and the router to overcome noise bursts. Basically packets between the DSLAM and your router are split into two parts so that noise spikes are less likely to take out the entire packet. The problem wrt to network congestion excuses is that interleaving onlyoccurs on the consumer side of the connection and is transparent to TCP/IP. It has no directly visible effect on the data stream leaving the exchange on the ISP side (the bit known as backhaul) and can not therefore be used to manage congestion. -- (Battle hardened industrialist) [Brackley, UK] My budgie can say "ploppy bottom". You have been warned.
Andrue Amarr	Posted - 2007.11.29 15:37:00 - [6] Originally by: Daelin Blackleaf damn' silly nuts discrimination bloodyminded incompetence That's Virgin ADSL alright. I've never gotten so much as 250kb/s on a speedtest out of my 8mb line. The official party line for Virgin is that nothing is their fault, always BT or the customer. Not that they didn't confirm 500kb/s minimum when throttled (which according to Virgin I never have been) on this line when I was originally choosing a new ISP. Currently much of EVE plays like Motsu on a sunday. Out of curiousity what is your downstream attenuation and noise margin? -- (Battle hardened industrialist) [Brackley, UK] My budgie can say "ploppy bottom". You have been warned.
Andrue Amarr	Posted - 2007.11.29 15:40:00 - [7] Originally by: Jupiter Sun Originally by: Nick Curso sounds like VM tbh i'm on there cabel 20mb service after fighting with them for months about only getting a 4mb connection they sent an engineer out who told me that they hadnt opend the pipe and to cause absolute **** till they do, which they did. They have also implemented something that drops ure connection speed to 5mb if u download over 3 gig between 5-midnight which is absolute bull on a 20mb like thats maybe an hours download if that where is the point in paying for 20mb if u carnt use it. damn right, i too have the 20MB version and you can hit that 3gb limit in a matter of minutes at top speed, for example if you pay for a usenet provider like giganews that'll fill any household cable connection. SO they doubled my line speed 'for free' yet reduced what I can actually download by 75%. I reckon a lot of users dont know about this bandwidth limiting BS and put their crappy speeds down to usage during peak hours. But what are downloading from giganews that is 3GB every night, night after night? -- (Battle hardened industrialist) [Brackley, UK] My budgie can say "ploppy bottom". You have been warned.
Andrue Amarr	Posted - 2007.11.30 08:28:00 - [8] Edited by: Andrue on 30/11/2007 08:34:00 Edited by: Andrue on 30/11/2007 08:30:14 Originally by: Jupiter Sun Originally by: Andrue But what are downloading from giganews that is 3GB every night, night after night? Hi-def TV shows, lossless audio, films i've never seen and musicians i've never heard of before, that sorta thing. why do you ask? Because I'm genuinely curious. So few people download that much (most rarely exceed 10GB a month) that I've long wondered what the extreme minority are doing. My next question is - how do you find the time to watch 3GB of video every night (we can probably assume that the pure audio is irrelevant) and play Eve? -- (Battle hardened industrialist) [Brackley, UK] My budgie can say "ploppy bottom". You have been warned.
Andrue Amarr	Posted - 2007.11.30 08:32:00 - [9] Originally by: Iteken Hotori Originally by: shivan TBH, your best bet is to go with BT. As any company that doesn't use 'cable' to supply you with a net service is only going to lease the line from BT and then lease it to you. Nope. BT trafficshape too, i'm in the proces of giving them teh finger, sueing them for an ususeable connection and walkig naway. if you want a decent adsl link, get LLU. Suing them will be a monumental waste of time and money. The most you could possibly get would be a partial refund of your monthly subscription and that wouldn't be worth your or the court's time. In any case their T&C will cover them. -- (Battle hardened industrialist) [Brackley, UK] My budgie can say "ploppy bottom". You have been warned.
Andrue Amarr	Posted - 2007.11.30 10:15:00 - [10] Originally by: Velios Edited by: Velios on 30/11/2007 10:05:54 Just cancelled my Virgin Broadband this morning and took the XL package from Sky. For only ú5 a month extra I now have Sky broadband XL, Sky HD and Sky talk unlimited. Lets hope it works... When it comes to Broadband (as in most things, tbh) you normally get what you pay for (). In your case you have opted for one of the cheapest BB providers you can find. Draw your own conclusions. ()VM is a special case. They are primarily a cable company and therefore providing BB over ADSL means using another companies network (BT's IPStream most likely). This therefore overrides the fact that VM's prices aren't particularly sharp. -- (Battle hardened industrialist) [Brackley, UK] My budgie can say "ploppy bottom". You have been warned.
Andrue Amarr	Posted - 2007.12.03 15:56:00 - [11] It looks like it isn't just Eve either: Trouble at t'mill. -- (Battle hardened industrialist) [Brackley, UK] My budgie can say "ploppy bottom". You have been warned.
Andrue Amarr	Posted - 2007.12.11 15:59:00 - [12] Edited by: Andrue on 11/12/2007 16:01:15 Edited by: Andrue on 11/12/2007 15:59:46 Originally by: zilllii the problem isnt the bandwith but the fact that the UK ISP's and their telephone companies are to damn cheap to put fibre cables in the ground so it will be enough. they are just cheap bastids who tries to milk every penny they can from every bit of traffic. The funny thing being that VM is the only ISP in the UK that has its own cable network. It's even funnier if you consider that they are currently trumpeting how this will allow them to roll out 50Mb services (more than doubling their current offering) next year. As for rolling out better networks..the problem is demand. No one can currently come up with anything practical to do with the proposed bandwidth. The UK doesn't need it for video broadcasting because Sky and Freeview have that covered. Using BB for VoD (Video on Demand) has merit but the charging model looks very shaky. How much will you pay to watch a movie over BB? Presumably less than you'd pay to rent it from a shop or postal service. That seriously erodes any revenue stream and makes a ú15 billion investment look stupid. The only people right now that want faster local loop in the UK are the small minority (less than 10%) of compulsive downloaders. Unfortunately those people are also the most vocal when it comes to objecting to high prices so again the revenue stream is weak. The UK is currently stuck between a rock and a hardplace. We think that we need to invest ú15 billion in networks but we don't actually know why. -- (Battle hardened industrialist) [Brackley, UK] My budgie can say "ploppy bottom". You have been warned.
Andrue Amarr	Posted - 2007.12.11 20:23:00 - [13] Edited by: Andrue on 11/12/2007 20:25:13 Edited by: Andrue on 11/12/2007 20:23:50 Originally by: Snaith I would contend that TV and video broadcasting is exactly what they want the bandwidth for, with Virgin having their own channel, and Tiscali (a known uber throttler) rolling out and heavily promoting it's phone+line+broadband+TV package. I would content that you are wrong and missing the point. Virgin do not offer TV over broadband. They offer TV over their network which is entirely different. Scheduled broadasting doesn't need BB. If all people want is scheduled digital TV (HD or SD) then they can have it now via Sky, Freeview or VM's cable. They are all tried and proven technology and I doubt there's a home in the UK that doesn't have at least one of them. With a PVR you an reschedule material which is pretty close to VoD (I haven't watched anything live for several years now). The only way BB can compete with satellite and cable is to offer true VoD. IOW by allowing you to browse a library of material and start watching whatever you want whenever you want. Unfortunately that is the worst case scenario as far as a network is concerned. There are no ways to combine data streams so you're looking at end point to end point transfer rates of 10Mb and higher with low latency and low packet loss for each programme/film being watched. It's technically possible but horribly, horribly expensive to provide. Given that Sky and Freeview have paid their bulk of their capital costs they can wipe the floor with any BB wannabe by dropping their prices. Bottom line:BB cannot afford to provide the kind of service that it needs to to compete with existing and well established technologies in the UK. -- (Battle hardened industrialist) [Brackley, UK] My budgie can say "ploppy bottom". You have been warned.

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