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Malcanis High4Life SMASH Alliance	Posted - 2007.11.29 09:50:00 - [31] Originally by: Polcor Rodal Most people in the game are caldari, or fly caldari ships. You have to keep your customers happy, so in terms of the game caldari wil "get all the cookies". It¦s customer care, nothing personal, just business. And most of those people use their caldari ships for PvE, which will get no particular bonus from an agility boost. Come to think of it, most PvP caldari probably chose Achura for 9/9/9/93 stats and started skilling Gallante/Minmatar from day 1. Caldari ships are generally the worst for PvP - certainly solo PvP - AND the slowest AND the least agile. Now they're a little less clumsy. Not any faster, they'll just align and ac/decelerate a little faster. CONCORD provide consequences, not safety; only you can do that.
Steyr Daghan	Posted - 2007.11.29 11:42:00 - [32] Originally by: Ulstan Maybe now we'll start seeing answers other than "Minmatar or Gallente" when someone asks "what ship should I PvP in?" No, we won't.
Steyr Daghan	Posted - 2007.11.29 11:54:00 - [33] Originally by: Polcor Rodal Most people in the game are caldari, or fly caldari ships. You have to keep your customers happy, so in terms of the game caldari wil "get all the cookies". BS. That's gotta be some kind of envy talking. Caldari in general and missile-boats in particular was overpowered for pve and underpowered for pvp. The torp changes makes torp-raven less uber for pve and less sucky for pvp. Agility boosts pvp and does nothing for mission-runners. These changes makes perfect sense. Im not saying that cause this char is cal. He's a missions/ratting char, my pvp alt flies gallente. So basically i am worse off with these changes, but they are still good and sensible.
Darth Felin	Posted - 2007.11.29 13:54:00 - [34] Originally by: Steyr Daghan Originally by: Polcor Rodal Most people in the game are caldari, or fly caldari ships. You have to keep your customers happy, so in terms of the game caldari wil "get all the cookies". BS. That's gotta be some kind of envy talking. Caldari in general and missile-boats in particular was overpowered for pve and underpowered for pvp. The torp changes makes torp-raven less uber for pve and less sucky for pvp. Agility boosts pvp and does nothing for mission-runners. These changes makes perfect sense. Im not saying that cause this char is cal. He's a missions/ratting char, my pvp alt flies gallente. So basically i am worse off with these changes, but they are still good and sensible. I have to agree with you that those changes makes sense. But it will be very intersting to know reason for such huge buff to ECM from different directions.
Wrayeth Shiva Morsus Mihi	Posted - 2007.11.29 14:23:00 - [35] Originally by: Goumindong All the assault friagtes are heavy like that, the hawk is no exception. My tempest can outrun my hawk. When a normal battleship can outrun a frig, there's a serious problem. -Wrayeth n00b Extraordinaire "Look, pa! I just contributed absolutely nothing to this thread!"
Omarvelous Destry's Lounge	Posted - 2007.11.29 15:16:00 - [36] Does the Harpy get the same agility savings that the Hawk did? If so - I may not want to stand up in front of my co-workers for a couple minutes... __________________________________________________ Sup brosef! Destry's Lounge is looking for a few good drunks - contact me in game.
Victor Forge Amarr	Posted - 2007.11.29 17:38:00 - [37] Originally by: Ulstan About time. Maybe now we'll start seeing answers other than "Minmatar or Gallente" when someone asks "what ship should I PvP in?" I was hoping for some day to be able to say; "Well Amarr fsn¦t as good as Caldari in pve but at least we are the 3rd best race in pvp...... breaks down in tears
wubbo okkels Caldari The Mothers Of Invention	Posted - 2007.11.29 21:41:00 - [38] hmmmm. think im gonna get the crow out of the mothballs
OOOSOOO Gallente Federal Navy Academy	Posted - 2007.11.29 21:51:00 - [39] Originally by: wubbo okkels hmmmm. think im gonna get the crow out of the mothballs Raptor and Crow agility will not be modified. ---------------------------------- I post therefore I am bored at work.
Ulstan	Posted - 2007.11.29 22:33:00 - [40] Quote: Most people in the game are caldari, or fly caldari ships. This is just patently false. Most players are not caldari.
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.11.29 22:58:00 - [41] Originally by: Steyr Daghan Originally by: Ulstan Maybe now we'll start seeing answers other than "Minmatar or Gallente" when someone asks "what ship should I PvP in?" No, we won't. Only because of the operative "start". Caldari are not slouches in pvp. They may be slouches in some types of pvp, but certianly no slouches.
Atsuko Ratu Caldari Advanced Logistics	Posted - 2007.11.29 23:01:00 - [42] I'm confuzzled. Is the base strength of all ECM's getting a buff, or are just the dedicated ships getting a boost? I know they are getting a cap reduction, but that is no where near a "huge buff to ECM"
Maximillian Dragonard	Posted - 2007.11.30 00:12:00 - [43] Falcon, BB, and Scorp are getting a strength boost. Rook is losing a high slot and gaining a low. No generic EW strength boost (fortunately)
madaluap Gallente Mercenary Forces Exquisite Malevolence	Posted - 2007.11.30 00:19:00 - [44] Edited by: madaluap on 30/11/2007 00:22:48 Originally by: Atsuko Ratu I'm confuzzled. Is the base strength of all ECM's getting a buff, or are just the dedicated ships getting a boost? I know they are getting a cap reduction, but that is no where near a "huge buff to ECM" +++ more EW strength for certain ECM ships +++ Rook gains a extra low increasing it jamming strenght/changes of survival ++ less capusage +- ECM has a lot more range than other EW, this makes it usefull in any (fleet, small gang whatever, any) situation +- Dampships suffer from cap issues -- Locking time damps are only usefull combined with ECM, its better to simply bring more ECM -- Damps are shortranged, so using a range script (only valuable script) will result in 1 nanoship getting within 5 km in notime and lock you with its 100% lockingspeed. At this point a ECM boat would put some (1-2) ECM modules on this nanoboat and warp off. The dampships need to suck up the damage (which they cant). --- On top of all this, damps lose a lot of strenght. Its nearly to the point that 1 damp on a nonbonussed, lvl 1 damppilot, does the same as 1 damp on a specialised recon after the patch. So train lvl 1 dampening, fit 1 damp on any ship, than lose your 2e dampbonus and thats how flying a gallente recon will be after the patch. Its way over the top. Nerf X = boost Y and boost X = nerf Y. Its the same thing, all this combined makes ECM the only EW in the game that performs well enough to justify losing damage/tank over shutting down targets. Shutting down 1 target and warpdisrupt him is all gallente can do now. _________________________________________________ Breetime A killmail!11!1 omgrawr: BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOYAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
Atsuko Ratu Caldari Advanced Logistics	Posted - 2007.11.30 02:18:00 - [45] Boosting ECM and nerfing the other modules is a totally different thing. The rook survives based on a dice roll, if it fails you have a good chance of popping in a few seconds to anyone with decent dps. Also, the lowslot is added to make it as good as the falcon (post patch, the Falcon would out-ecm the Rook if the Rook only had 2 lows, effectivly making the Rook 100% useless in any real situation.) It is true that damps were nerfed pretty hard, we've had to deal with that ourselves awhile ago. But this isn't some huge boost to ECM. ECM will not be more effective on any other ship simply because of the damp nerf. Tank will always out perform a ecm module in most situations on a non dedicated ship, same as damps now. All that needs to be changed is a boost to the dedicated damp ships' bonuses, a change that will probably come in a year or so.
welsh wizard Celestial Apocalypse Insurgency	Posted - 2007.11.30 11:47:00 - [46] I think part of the problem is the general players perception of how Ewar should be balanced. I think alot of you think the Amarr, Minmatar & Gallente ewars should be as effective as the Caldari Ewar. It shouldn't and I'm pretty damn sure this was never CCP's intention. Caldari are given next to useless hulls but with a very powerful saving grace, ECM. Noticeably more powerful than the other races. For the last year or so this hasn't been the case. Damps were preferable because CCP 'over-nerfed' ECM with Revelations. Now they're straightening things out again. Take away the ECM & all of the ECM hulls are a joke in comparison to the other races Ewar hulls. Our 100% dedicated ECM bonuses also reflect the fact that these ships were designed for one purpose only. In this particular instance CCP are not looking for balance. Caldari are supposed to be leading the pack when it comes to electronic warfare. It makes up for their other crippling weaknesses in pvp. [Balance] The Caldari problem.
Ancy Denaries Caldari Isseras Manufacture	Posted - 2007.11.30 22:56:00 - [47] Originally by: Polcor Rodal Most people in the game are caldari, or fly caldari ships. You have to keep your customers happy, so in terms of the game caldari wil "get all the cookies". It¦s customer care, nothing personal, just business. Omg! You better get your tinfoil hat back on! They've gotten to you! /sarcasm off
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.11.30 23:49:00 - [48] Originally by: welsh wizard Edited by: welsh wizard on 30/11/2007 23:26:34 I think part of the problem is the general players perception of how Ewar should be balanced. I think alot of you think the Amarr, Minmatar & Gallente ewars should be as effective as the Caldari Ewar. It shouldn't and I'm pretty damn sure this was never CCP's intention. Caldari are given next to useless hulls but with a very powerful saving grace, ECM. Noticeably more powerful than the other races. For the last year or so this hasn't been the case. Damps were preferable because CCP 'over-nerfed' ECM with Revelations. Now they're straightening things out again. Take away the ECM & all of the ECM hulls are a joke in comparison to the other races Ewar hulls. Our 100% dedicated ECM bonuses also reflect the fact that these ships were designed for one purpose only. In this particular instance CCP are not looking for balance. Caldari are supposed to be leading the pack when it comes to electronic warfare. It makes up for their other weaknesses in pvp. [i]What?[/b]
Atsuko Ratu Caldari Advanced Logistics	Posted - 2007.11.30 23:54:00 - [49] Originally by: welsh wizard Edited by: welsh wizard on 30/11/2007 23:26:34 I think part of the problem is the general players perception of how Ewar should be balanced. I think alot of you think the Amarr, Minmatar & Gallente ewars should be as effective as the Caldari Ewar. It shouldn't and I'm pretty damn sure this was never CCP's intention. Caldari are given next to useless hulls but with a very powerful saving grace, ECM. Noticeably more powerful than the other races. For the last year or so this hasn't been the case. Damps were preferable because CCP 'over-nerfed' ECM with Revelations. Now they're straightening things out again. Take away the ECM & all of the ECM hulls are a joke in comparison to the other races Ewar hulls. Our 100% dedicated ECM bonuses also reflect the fact that these ships were designed for one purpose only. In this particular instance CCP are not looking for balance. Caldari are supposed to be leading the pack when it comes to electronic warfare. It makes up for their other weaknesses in pvp. Finally, someone that understands the basics of balancing QFT
welsh wizard Celestial Apocalypse Insurgency	Posted - 2007.12.01 00:14:00 - [50] Originally by: Goumindong Originally by: welsh wizard Edited by: welsh wizard on 30/11/2007 23:26:34 I think part of the problem is the general players perception of how Ewar should be balanced. I think alot of you think the Amarr, Minmatar & Gallente ewars should be as effective as the Caldari Ewar. It shouldn't and I'm pretty damn sure this was never CCP's intention. Caldari are given next to useless hulls but with a very powerful saving grace, ECM. Noticeably more powerful than the other races. For the last year or so this hasn't been the case. Damps were preferable because CCP 'over-nerfed' ECM with Revelations. Now they're straightening things out again. Take away the ECM & all of the ECM hulls are a joke in comparison to the other races Ewar hulls. Our 100% dedicated ECM bonuses also reflect the fact that these ships were designed for one purpose only. In this particular instance CCP are not looking for balance. Caldari are supposed to be leading the pack when it comes to electronic warfare. It makes up for their other weaknesses in pvp. [i]What?[/b] What is it Goumindong? What are you unable to comprehend this time? [Balance] The Caldari problem.
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.12.01 00:43:00 - [51] I am wondering what in the world could have given you the idea that ECM was supposed to be better than other ewar types?
Hozac	Posted - 2007.12.01 00:53:00 - [52] Originally by: Goumindong I am wondering what in the world could have given you the idea that ECM was supposed to be better than other ewar types? Feel free to slap him around a bit when he answers back story.
welsh wizard Celestial Apocalypse Insurgency	Posted - 2007.12.01 01:10:00 - [53] Edited by: welsh wizard on 01/12/2007 01:19:54 Oooo I don't know, perhaps a few of the following observations; The dedicated bonuses to all the ECM ships where as all the other races Ewar boats have mixed bonuses? In fact the other races recons even have a second ability!! Wheres the Caldari second ability? The fact that one of our battleships is entirely dedicated to ECM and nothing else? The fact that all the Caldari Ewar hulls are significantly weaker than the other races Ewar hulls when fit to operate with their bonuses? The fact that we're required to use damage mods for our ewar? The fact that the ECM skilltree is alot longer than all the other ewars skill trees? The fact that the Caldari race has little going for it in pvp without ECM? And finally and most importantly the fact that ECM was and will again be the most powerful form of ewar. Lets hear your logical explanations and reasoning for the above. I really cannot wait! edit: Actually perhaps a member of CCP staff would just put us out of our misery and let us know one way or the other? ;) [Balance] The Caldari problem.
Wu Jiun	Posted - 2007.12.01 02:19:00 - [54] Originally by: welsh wizard I think part of the problem is the general players perception of how Ewar should be balanced. I think alot of you think the Amarr, Minmatar & Gallente ewars should be as effective as the Caldari Ewar. It shouldn't and I'm pretty damn sure this was never CCP's intention. As it stands amarr and minmatar ewar is already less strong. I doubt than anyone could really argue against this fact. So why are tds nerfed even further? Its not that anywhere in the world someone in his right mind would take a pilgrim or even curse over a falcon/rook if it comes to ewar or gang support in general. Originally by: welsh wizard Caldari are given next to useless hulls but with a very powerful saving grace, ECM. Noticeably more powerful than the other races. For the last year or so this hasn't been the case. Damps were preferable because CCP 'over-nerfed' ECM with Revelations. Now they're straightening things out again. Damps aren't less good than ecm with the next patch, they are a joke compared to ecm. Not to mention Td's/Tp's. Also all recons have quite useless "hulls". They all go pop pretty fast and do low dmg thats not a caldari privilege. Admittedly caldari recons pop first and do the least damage, but as mentioned they are absolutely awesome in what they can do. If somebody wants to boost caldari in pvp why not somewhere where it really lacks? Originally by: welsh wizard In this particular instance CCP are not looking for balance. Caldari are supposed to be leading the pack when it comes to electronic warfare. It makes up for their other weaknesses in pvp. You are right CCP doesn't look for balance. That doesn't mean its good. Notice though that by your own logic caldaris other weaknesses in pvp shouldn't be solved. Can't have your cake and eat it too or how is that saying?
Revnant Caldari Uninvited Guests Cult of War	Posted - 2007.12.01 02:22:00 - [55] Originally by: welsh wizard Edited by: welsh wizard on 01/12/2007 01:50:49 The fact that the ECM skilltree is longer (2 extra skills) than all the other ewars skill trees? Que? Which 2 skills? All EWAR (damps, ecm, tracking disruptor's, target painters) Frequency Modulation Long Range Jamming ECM Electronic warfare Signal Dispersion Sensor Dampners Sensor linking Signal Suppression Tracking Disruptor's Weapon Disruption Turret Destabilization Target Painters Signature Focusing Target Painting
welsh wizard Celestial Apocalypse Insurgency	Posted - 2007.12.01 02:31:00 - [56] Originally by: Revnant ... You're quite right, Guess I saw Long Distance Jamming and assumed Frequency Modulation was for ECM only. I stand corrected! 1 reason down, lots to go! [Balance] The Caldari problem.
welsh wizard Celestial Apocalypse Insurgency	Posted - 2007.12.01 02:40:00 - [57] Edited by: welsh wizard on 01/12/2007 02:41:12 Originally by: Wu Jiun You are right CCP doesn't look for balance. That doesn't mean its good. Notice though that by your own logic caldaris other weaknesses in pvp shouldn't be solved. Can't have your cake and eat it too or how is that saying? Theres a difference between intended weaknesses and generally just being rubbish/ineffective, like the Ferox, Moa or Raptor. For example the intention is that Caldari should have a tough time flying alone because of the nature of a shield tank. The intention is also that they're the slowest race because apparently shield tanks, missiles & ECM make up for it! Without making sweeping changes to game mechanics these weaknesses are racial and 'unsolvable' without simpily ignoring 4 years of Eve. This is generally acceptable if not ideal, its what makes the races different afterall. Now if a ship is just poor at performing its role or laughable in comparison to its racial counter-parts then theres stuff to balance and change! It isn't just Caldari who have problems in this department, Amarr suffer considerably too. in fact all the races do in varying degrees. Some worse than others though. [Balance] The Caldari problem.
Revnant Caldari Uninvited Guests Cult of War	Posted - 2007.12.01 02:57:00 - [58] Incidentally I have 0 problems with the ECM boost's. I would however like sensor dampner and tracking disrupter spec ships to have a role in gangs post trinity. If it gets to the point where you're told to swap out to a rapier/hugin/falcon or else bring dps instead its obviously out of wack. Until we see final stats in those areas though its just speculation of course.
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.12.01 07:36:00 - [59] Originally by: welsh wizard Waaaaaaaaaaa. Caldari ships are slow because fast missile ships == broken. Med slots > low slots for both tanking, and ewar[and typicially leave plenty for damage mods]. If you dont want to fly in situations where this is usefull, it aint my fault. Not that this has anything to do with ECM balance Quote: Without making sweeping changes to game mechanics these weaknesses are racial and 'unsolvable' without simpily ignoring 4 years of Eve. They actually arent weaknesses, you just dont know how to use the advantages your ships have
Goumindong Amarr Merch Industrial GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.12.01 07:45:00 - [60] Originally by: welsh wizard Edited by: welsh wizard on 01/12/2007 02:32:17 Oooo I don't know, perhaps a few of the following observations; The dedicated bonuses to all the ECM ships where as all the other races Ewar boats have mixed bonuses? In fact the other races recons even have a second ability!! Wheres the Caldari second ability? The fact that one of our battleships, three of our cruisers & two of our frigates are entirely dedicated to ECM and nothing else? The fact that all the Caldari Ewar hulls are significantly weaker than the other races Ewar hulls when fit to operate with their bonuses? The fact that we're required to use damage mods for our ewar? The fact that the Caldari race has little going for it in pvp without ECM? (subjective) And finally and most importantly the fact that ECM was and will again be the most powerful form of ewar. Lets hear your logical explanations and reasoning for the above. I really cannot wait! edit: Actually perhaps a member of CCP staff would just put us out of our misery and let us know one way or the other? ;) 1. Bonus number is not important, end result is important. 2. Bonus number is not imporant, end result is important. 3. Irrelevent to balance. Amarr has 14 ships dedicated to using lasers, this does not mean lasers should be more powerful than hybrids, autocannons, or missiles. 4. Ewar hulls are not significantly weaker than other races ewar hulls, use your bonuses well and you are the hardiest ships on the field. 5. Irrelevent, end result is relevent 6. Bwa ha ha ha ha ha ha. Caldari and all med slot flush ships[which is pretty much Caldari] with high ranges are well suited to combat, maybe not the combat you do, but that isnt my fault. 7. This makes no sense. "ECM was and is and will be the most powerful" is not a valid arguement to answer the question "why should ECM be the best"

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