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Rumours abound that slaves will soon be openly on sale in Pator.

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Masu'di Es and Whizz Hedonistic Imperative	Posted - 2007.11.29 14:05:00 - [1] ..and not just slaves in Pator, but alcohol and spirits in Ammar prime word is secure commerce has made an unprecedented move and stuck two fingers up at all the empire factions and their cultural policies. further information here [ooc] Es and Whizz is recruiting
Arkady Sadik Gradient Electus Matari	Posted - 2007.11.29 14:50:00 - [2] Edited by: Arkady Sadik on 29/11/2007 14:51:26 This new move - apparently a result of further Yulai treaty related discussions - allows organizations like the Electus Matari to offer a price for slaves freed from pirate vessles or structures, which will (hopefully) result in those people to be freed by capsuleer pilots and brought to a station, instead of leaving them to die in space. The possibility of abuse is very limited, as transportation of un-free people is still prohibited. Of course we need to watch closely whether further regulations need to be introduced to protect these people. But in general, I do welcome this move of the Republic to support freedom programs.
Stitcher Caldari legion of qui Terra Incognita.	Posted - 2007.11.29 15:22:00 - [3] All that's needed now is for the Yulai lot to work up some kind of a system allowing independent third parties - such as, for example, us - to formally emancipate any slaves they may have in their hold. It can't be THAT hard to draw up some new paperwork granting ship captains the authority to declare any slaves they're carrying to be free men.... It makes me wonder why it hasn't happened yet. - The game is not the problem. The problem is that you are not adapting to the game.
Masu'di Es and Whizz Hedonistic Imperative	Posted - 2007.11.29 17:00:00 - [4] While your sentiments are well intentioned i believe you are wrong on all accounts. Originally by: Arkady Sadik Edited by: Arkady Sadik on 29/11/2007 14:51:26 This new move - apparently a result of further Yulai treaty related discussions - allows organizations like the Electus Matari to offer a price for slaves freed from pirate vessles or structures, which will (hopefully) result in those people to be freed by capsuleer pilots and brought to a station, instead of leaving them to die in space. The possibility of abuse is very limited, as transportation of un-free people is still prohibited. Of course we need to watch closely whether further regulations need to be introduced to protect these people. But in general, I do welcome this move of the Republic to support freedom programs. Customs have little or no part in prohibiting slave trade. Customs officials are largely ineffective, and very very rarely catch a ship carrying contraband. The main reason we do not see more slave trade, is that there is no convenient and open market for slavers to use. This coupled with naive members of the public placing buy orders for slaves will only encourage and expand the market. Remember you will have no control over who you buy or sell to. You will probably be buying in many cases directly off slavers, putting ISK straight into their pocket, and encouraging them to capture more people, and giving them the capital to increase their business. Finally, I do not believe this was a move by the Minmatar Republic, it is a move by Secure Commerce Commission who run all the station markets in New Eden. Normally, they are a lot more cultural sensitive. I'm not sure why they have changed their policy, but I'm very surprised to see the Ammar empire acquiesce over the sale of narcotics, liquor, exotic dancers and various other vice within their territory. Es and Whizz is recruiting
Kabajashi San Minmatar Thrace Inc Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2007.11.29 19:03:00 - [5] May you see the line betwen offering a price for freed slaves and participating in slave trades, Mr. Sadik. EM lately is quite generous regarding payment to people who own slaves.
Arkady Sadik Gradient Electus Matari	Posted - 2007.11.29 19:39:00 - [6] Originally by: Kabajashi San May you see the line betwen offering a price for freed slaves and participating in slave trades, Mr. Sadik. EM lately is quite generous regarding payment to people who own slaves. Risking the freedom of billions of Matari is an acceptable price to be paid to free our brothers, but a few ISK is out of the question?
Evanda Char Minmatar Re-Awakened Technologies Inc Electus Matari	Posted - 2007.11.29 19:48:00 - [7] Originally by: Kabajashi San May you see the line betwen offering a price for freed slaves and participating in slave trades, Mr. Sadik. EM lately is quite generous regarding payment to people who own slaves. As far as I know, we haven't paid for any slaves at all. Care to point to your source, Kabajashi "San"? -Eva- Electus Matari - taking it one bad guy at a time
Becq Starforged Minmatar Ship Construction Services Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2007.11.29 21:43:00 - [8] I'm speechless. Could it be possible even for Midular to conceive of going so far as to allow the Amarrians and their ilk to OPENLY buy and sell our kindred in Matari marketplaces? I can only hope that this is merely a rumor, and no more... -- Becq Starforged proprietor of Starforge Industries, a subsidiary of Minmatar Ship Construction Services At Starforge Industries, the world of tomorrow is being blown apart today!
Rocius Minmatar Gradient Electus Matari	Posted - 2007.11.30 04:46:00 - [9] Originally by: Becq Starforged I'm speechless. Could it be possible even for Midular to conceive of going so far as to allow the Amarrians and their ilk to OPENLY buy and sell our kindred in Matari marketplaces? I can only hope that this is merely a rumor, and no more... And once again, the standard response from U'K. Lets scream as loud as we can, blame the ones we dont like, no matter if they actualy did anything or not. Blame Midular !!! Blame Electus Matari SCC, does not now, nor has it ever answered to Midular. But hey, why waste my breath telling you folks that, right? After all, us Republic loyalists really dont know squat, and you sepratists have all the answers.... Your signature exceeds the maximum allowed filesize of 24000 bytes -Rauth Kivaro ([email protected])
Tablaren Kingdom of Kador Dark Matter Coalition	Posted - 2007.11.30 04:57:00 - [10] I have to admit, I am horrified by this but you matari better not dare to think you are alone in this. I work hard to support my wife and our family and I will be damned if I allow the marketplaces in Kador Prime to sell boosters to our children. This is a most despicable and heinous crime that the SCC is trying to make into intergalactic policy and I for one will not stand by idle and allow them to destroy the future of our loved ones and offspring. We would make many enemies this way, but will none of you stand beside me if a petition fails to bring about the dissolution of this vile law? What would have been the point of Gallante Capsuleers engaging Serpentis have been if the Angel Cartel and Serpentis can now sell drugs openly? What would the point of Amarr tradition and law be if the SCC in one move invalidates legal and religious law bringing disgusting x-rated **** flicks and boosters to our children before they learn what it means to be Amarr. What about the Calderi? They fight hard to keep gurista business out of the market and in the shadow. Now they will be allowed to present all their despicable wares for all to see? As much as I hate to say it... The matari cry for freedom, what use would it be if I could simply travel to Rens and purchase your children? Hell, this even breaks Amarr law yet the SCC feels they have the right to do this? This is not law. This is Anarchy. This is something I would expect from one such as the Cosmopolite not a Commision of economists.
Kabajashi San Minmatar Thrace Inc Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2007.11.30 13:21:00 - [11] My source of course being public information as I have no insight view to EM. I refer to this. I find it hard to believe that Cyshade released these slaves without anything in return. I respect your right to remain silent about this as it might encourage others. But that also beeing my point, Mr. Sadik. The ISK you'd pay would be poisened. We live in a world of greed and putting a price in buying our brothers will lead people to do business on it. In the end you might buy freedom for people who wouldn't have been enslaved if you wouldn't have created a market. There is no honour in trading with the lives of others, no matter what your motivation is. There is no non-violent way to free our brothers, no appeasement or economic trick will do. You cannot bake a cake without breaking eggs. You will have to fight for it (as EM does every day now). And one day even the Republicans might wake up.
Tar Kovsky Minmatar Khumatari Holdings Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2007.11.30 14:16:00 - [12] I have learned to expect the worst from The ***** Midular and I am seldom disappointed. --
Svetlana Scarlet Caldari Caldari Independent Navy Reserve	Posted - 2007.11.30 16:28:00 - [13] This is completely unacceptable, and is yet another instance of CONCORD stepping far beyond their bounds as seems to be their modus operandi as of late. This is yet another infringement upon the sovereignty of the State and the other Yulai Conventions signatories, far beyond what was originally intended by those at the conference. CONCORD was meant to serve the interstellar community, not vice versa. Yet the last few weeks have seen them confiscate research and prototypes from a Caldari corporation, despite the fact that this is clearly within the Tribunal's jurisdiction and those patents and any profits resulting from them are clearly property of the Caldari State. We have seen them stonewall official Federation government requests for information. They are going far beyond their jurisdiction -- this must be stopped and CONCORD must be brought to heel. While the idea of an international force to keep the peace and maintain a stable interstellar market is a respectable one, they seem ineffective at doing either, since they apparently do nothing to stop the flagrant abusive of Caldari sovereignty by the Federation we have seen over the last year, and now they try to destabilize the markets by making more work for customs officials. -- CAPT Svetlana Scarlet CAIN Chief of Diplomatic Staff
Ugleb Khumatari Holdings Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2007.11.30 16:42:00 - [14] Originally by: Rocius SCC, does not now, nor has it ever answered to Midular. But hey, why waste my breath telling you folks that, right? After all, us Republic loyalists really dont know squat, and you sepratists have all the answers.... The SCC is a division of CONCORD and answers to the governments of the empires. Midular is one of the most influential people in cluster politics to bring the SCC to account. Let her speak out against this and inspire the other governments to take note. Or she can choose to do nothing. It is not her fault that the directors of the SCC have made this move, but it is her duty to oppose it.
Buduran Amarr	Posted - 2007.11.30 17:29:00 - [15] Alcohol and spirits in Amarr Prime something strange? As far as I know, the Theology Council and the most blessed Ardishapur family itself, being the most bent on preserving the religious laws, openly request spirits and spiced wine from the traders. It never fails to amuse me how outsiders tend to portray the Empire only as a long list of forbidden practices...
Kyoko Sakoda Caldari Omerta Syndicate	Posted - 2007.11.30 17:47:00 - [16] Ah, so people are starting to get it that CONCORD is run by a bunch of nutcases. I suppose that's a start.
Yokan Daifuku Gallente The Flaming Sideburn's Hedonistic Imperative	Posted - 2007.11.30 20:41:00 - [17] I cannot stand for this outrage. I will be using all my agent contacts to expose this situation across empire space. SCC must be stopped and prevented from anything like this. Kaalakiota, Federal Intelligence Office, Rodan Shipyards, The Scope, Amarr Certified News, and Freedom Extension will all be hearing from me. Together we will defeat this SCC initiative. ---- Yo-con Die-foo-koo
Arkady Sadik Gradient Electus Matari	Posted - 2007.11.30 22:08:00 - [18] Originally by: Ugleb it is her duty to oppose it. I disagree strongly. This change finally allows us to be more active in rescuing slaves, and providing rewards for others to do so. As I posted above, we need to see how it develops and implement ways to prohibit abuse if any occurs, but the general idea is very useful.
Ontaku Oroa Minmatar Masuat'aa Matari Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2007.11.30 23:12:00 - [19] As has been stated already, it would be extremely unwise to start openly purchasing enslaved people on the market, even for the purpose of freeing them - it is like paying ransom for kidnap victims - you only end up encouraging the kidnappers by effectively telling them their "business" is acceptable and profitable. IF some third party does have a wish to set the enslaved free, they can always contact various organizations interested in providing such people with shelter and a new beginning, such as Ushra'Khan or Electus Matari. There is no need for putting them on a market since you cannot put a price tag on a human being. Trafficking of slaves is FORBIDDEN in the Republic. This is one of the cornerstones of our society - we DO NOT allow slavery to exist in any shape or form within our reach. While Ushra'Khan and like minded organizations strive to bring deliverance to our enslaved brethren wherever they may be, even outside of Republic space, it falls to the Republic itself to protect the very principle upon which it was formed. Trafficking does not simply mean transporting, it means also trading. To allow trading of slaves on Republic open markets is an insult to each and every one of our brothers and sisters who gave their lives so that the Republic could even come to be.
Becq Starforged Minmatar Ship Construction Services Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2007.12.01 00:11:00 - [20] Originally by: Arkady Sadik Originally by: Ugleb it is her duty to oppose it. I disagree strongly. This change finally allows us to be more active in rescuing slaves, and providing rewards for others to do so. As I posted above, we need to see how it develops and implement ways to prohibit abuse if any occurs, but the general idea is very useful. Buying slaves from a slaver only gives financial incentive for them to enslave more people. It sickens me to see a self-named proponent for our people talk about the expansion of the slave market as 'very useful' toward the end of 'rescuing slaves'. It's the equivalent of encouraging people to randomly shoot others near hospitals so that more people can be healed. All this means is that it simplifies the economic cycle for slavers: they raid our people's homes, then drop them off at the nearest marketplace instead of having to fly all of the way back to Amarr space. Convenient for them; they can imediately wire the profits to their accounts and head off to the next target settlement. -- Becq Starforged proprietor of Starforge Industries, a subsidiary of Minmatar Ship Construction Services At Starforge Industries, the world of tomorrow is being blown apart today!
Arkady Sadik Gradient Electus Matari	Posted - 2007.12.01 01:22:00 - [21] You speak as if there were no slaves in the Republic. But I have bad news, there are. Angels keep prisoners, some people are kept in pleasure hubs against their will, others are forced to work for crime lords... The Republic invests a lot of energy and ISK in fighting these crimes. But I have even worse news. Most capsuleers out there leave these people alone to die in space. While you might as a reaction shoot every single of those heartless people, the Republic goes about providing solutions to the problem. Owning slaves was never possible to control, as you might well know. Transporting slaves is and remains illegal. This does not change any laws that make it possible to enslave more people any more than it was before. All it does is provide a means to make existing slaves change owners. Will groups like the Electus Matari or Ushra'Khan start to sell slaves? No! Of course not. Is it terrible if an existing slave changes ownership from one slaver to another? Well, it's still terrible, but it doesn't get worse. The only thing that this really changes is to make it possible for slaves to move from slavers to freedom fighters in an exchange for ISK. Will this force Amarr to bring slaves from the Empire to the Republic? HOPEFULLY! Godsbedamned, this is what we want! The only thing sickening here is the hypocrisy! To quote myself: Originally by: Arkady Sadik Risking the freedom of billions of Matari is an acceptable price to be paid to free our brothers, but a few ISK is out of the question?
Masu'di Es and Whizz Hedonistic Imperative	Posted - 2007.12.01 02:17:00 - [22] Originally by: Arkady Sadik You speak as if there were no slaves in the Republic. But I have bad news, there are. Angels keep prisoners, some people are kept in pleasure hubs against their will, others are forced to work for crime lords... The Republic invests a lot of energy and ISK in fighting these crimes. But I have even worse news. Most capsuleers out there leave these people alone to die in space. While you might as a reaction shoot every single of those heartless people, the Republic goes about providing solutions to the problem. Owning slaves was never possible to control, as you might well know. Transporting slaves is and remains illegal. This does not change any laws that make it possible to enslave more people any more than it was before. All it does is provide a means to make existing slaves change owners. Will groups like the Electus Matari or Ushra'Khan start to sell slaves? No! Of course not. Is it terrible if an existing slave changes ownership from one slaver to another? Well, it's still terrible, but it doesn't get worse. The only thing that this really changes is to make it possible for slaves to move from slavers to freedom fighters in an exchange for ISK. Will this force Amarr to bring slaves from the Empire to the Republic? HOPEFULLY! Godsbedamned, this is what we want! The only thing sickening here is the hypocrisy! To quote myself: Originally by: Arkady Sadik Risking the freedom of billions of Matari is an acceptable price to be paid to free our brothers, but a few ISK is out of the question? If only the world was that simple. My friend, while your intentions mean well, you are misguided. By paying ISK to slavers, you are only encouraging them to enslave more people. For every man, woman or child that you buy from a slaver, you are giving them the means to enslave another somewhere else in New Eden. Now paying perhaps a little ISK to the occasional pilot who encounters some slaves kept by the Angel cartel, is perhaps different, and acceptable. However, you will not be able to guarantee this by using the open and anonymous market. You will have no control of who you buy from. Es and Whizz is recruiting
Tablaren Kingdom of Kador Dark Matter Coalition	Posted - 2007.12.01 02:51:00 - [23] Edited by: Tablaren on 01/12/2007 02:52:12 Perhaps you matari, instead of blaming each other, may wish to sign my petition? There are many of you, many are outraged, yet not a single one of you is willing to sign their name to a piece of paper that states they believe it's wrong? I for once am agreeing with you, for once the cluster has a cause it can unite under, but instead of doing something as simple as writing down your name and saying "I dont like this and will not support it" you instead use the entire event as a way to foster more hatred between yourself and other matari groups so you can gain more power. Here you have been calling yourself freedom fighters and you cannot even find it in yourselves to lift your finger and sign a petition that might prevent this travesty. I hate to break it to you but Concord and the SCC NEED our support... we bring fuel, food, batteries, water, mechanical parts, everything they need to survive to their stations. If they see they no longer have Capsuleer support they will lose their primary means of supply and even survival!
Arkady Sadik Gradient Electus Matari	Posted - 2007.12.01 02:58:00 - [24] Originally by: Masu'di My friend, while your intentions mean well, you are misguided. By paying ISK to slavers, you are only encouraging them to enslave more people. For every man, woman or child that you buy from a slaver, you are giving them the means to enslave another somewhere else in New Eden. If they enslave a person outside of the Republic, and transport them to the Republic to sell them there, then the traffic controls have failed - transporting slaves is illegal still. If the traffic controls fail, they need to be improved. The market regulations only affect what happens with slaves already in Republic space. And for them, exchanging ownership can only have their fate stay the same (still be slaves), or improve (be bought by freedom fighters). It can't get worse. So I welcome the change to the market regulations, because they actually improve the situation. The correct thing to ask for is an improvement of the traffic regulations, not an abolishing of this change to market regulations. Do you see what I mean?
Arkady Sadik Gradient Electus Matari	Posted - 2007.12.01 07:18:00 - [25] As this has just been asked on the Electus Matari public channel: Arkady Sadik in this thread represents himself and himself alone. He is speaking as a private person, and not in his position as a diplomat for Electus Matari. We are sorry for any misconceptions that might have arised from that. The Electus Matari has not formed any official position on this matter yet, so no one can represent any "official position" of Electus Matari on this matter. Once an official position has been found, a person clearly marked as a representative of Electus Matari will post it. Please do not mistake our members as speaking for the alliance. We allow diverse opinions among our members, and not everyone agrees with the alliance position on everything. Also, our members sometimes even form opinions before the alliance itself does. Arkady Sadik Diplomat for Electus Matari
Ontaku Oroa Minmatar Masuat'aa Matari Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2007.12.01 10:13:00 - [26] We should not stoop down to actually pay the slaver scum to return our brothers, sisters, our children to us! This will not teach them the error of their ways. And to me personally, it matters little if the enslaved were captured within or outside of Republic space. To pay for their freedom in any currency other than hot shrapnel means to encourage further enslavement of other unfortunates. This will only increase the available market for slavers. It will not decrease the number of people enslaved each month, nor will it bring about the end of slavery. So in my view, it does nothing for our cause, but does a lot for the profits of slavers. As others have said, Mr. Sadik: you may mean well, but you are mistaken in your beliefs.
Helfrin	Posted - 2007.12.01 20:17:00 - [27] Originally by: Kabajashi San My source of course being public information as I have no insight view to EM. I refer to this. I find it hard to believe that Cyshade released these slaves without anything in return. We at no point offered Cyshade isk for either the former slaves or the potential Insorum sample, nor were we asked to. I provided a non-fiscal service, this is her way of saying "thankyou" and of posing me a challenge, a test. To answer the more general issue, I would absolutely love it if the idea currently being bandied about, of the Republic offering a reward for freeing slaves previously held in Angel Pleasure hubs or Caldari slave compounds awaiting sale, becomes a reality. Then even those who don't care about the Minmatar cause would have an incentive to free them. However, until we have a way of knowing who is getting isk for slaves, and guaranteeing it is people interested in freeing them, not people interested in taking more people captive for the sake of the money, I will stand by the current EM policy of not buying slaves. I hope this lays your anxieties to rest. I'm actually a bit surprised to find you take this rather accusatory stance considering members of Ushra'Khan did offer isk rewards to whoever released the slaves here.
Evanda Char Minmatar Re-Awakened Technologies Inc Electus Matari	Posted - 2007.12.01 21:09:00 - [28] Originally by: Kabajashi San My source of course being public information as I have no insight view to EM. I refer to this. I find it hard to believe that Cyshade released these slaves without anything in return. We at no point offered Cyshade isk for either the former slaves or the potential Insorum sample, nor were we asked to. I provided a non-fiscal service, this is her way of saying "thankyou" and of posing me a challenge, a test. To answer the more general issue, I would absolutely love it if the idea currently being bandied about, of the Republic offering a reward for freeing slaves previously held in Angel Pleasure hubs or Caldari slave compounds awaiting sale, becomes a reality. Then even those who don't care about the Minmatar cause would have an incentive to free them. However, until we have a way of knowing who is getting isk for slaves, and guaranteeing it is people interested in freeing them, not people interested in taking more people captive for the sake of the money, I will stand by the current EM policy of not buying slaves. I hope this lays your anxieties to rest. I'm actually a bit surprised to find you take this rather accusatory stance considering members of Ushra'Khan did offer isk rewards to whoever released the slaves here. -Eva- Electus Matari - taking it one bad guy at a time
Aria Jenneth Caldari Omerta Syndicate	Posted - 2007.12.01 21:14:00 - [29] Edited by: Aria Jenneth on 01/12/2007 21:14:48 Okay, hold on a minute. The Amarr take slaves for the purpose of converting them. Selling slaves into a situation in which that purpose is blocked or subverted has -got- to be forbidden by an entire freighter load of Amarrian legal practice. Were it otherwise, the practice of slavery would be indefensible from absolutely every angle, rather than just most. Ergo, the Amarr won't be making a habit of selling you your people this way, certainly not enough for it to matter. If someone from the Empire can please confirm this, I'd appreciate it. Furthermore, anyone transporting slaves within the Republic is going to have enough potential problems to make such activities economically infeasible. "All right; I'm going to risk my ship along with the lives and freedom of my crew in order to scoop up some village on an outlying Matari world, transport the population past customs to a Matari market hub, and sell them back! And if I'm caught, I lose ... hm. Everything I was going to sell, plus my ship! That sounds like a GREAT business plan!" To be worth doing, slaving has to be not only profitable but worth the risk. Little villages aren't always as defenseless as they look. Now, considering that the Amarr aren't likely to take advantage of your offer, what you're really much more likely to see is a bunch of unaligned smugglers or faithless Amarr buying slaves in the Amarr homeworlds and smuggling them out of the Empire and into the Republic to cash in on the EM purchase offer, one interceptor cargo hold at a time. If it were sufficiently profitable, I might even be willing to do it myself: undermine the Amarrian institution of slavery, and get paid for it. Win / win. They'd still be slaves up until the reach EM, and therefore illegal in Republic space, hence the interceptor-based smuggling. However, would even Ushra'Khan be willing to say that one who purchases, transports, and sells (or, rather, claims a reward for the rescue of) slaves for the specific purpose of restoring them to their families is actually doing wrong? The Amarr won't do it. It's against their religion. The Sansha won't do it. They need the manpower more than the ISK. That leaves the smugglers. So, how about it? We fetch your relatives from the Empire, you reimburse us, plus a modest reward for the trouble and the necessity of blockade running?
Ugleb Khumatari Holdings Ushra'Khan	Posted - 2007.12.01 22:10:00 - [30] Originally by: Aria Jenneth Edited by: Aria Jenneth on 01/12/2007 21:14:48 They'd still be slaves up until the reach EM, and therefore illegal in Republic space, hence the interceptor-based smuggling. However, would even Ushra'Khan be willing to say that one who purchases, transports, and sells (or, rather, claims a reward for the rescue of) slaves for the specific purpose of restoring them to their families is actually doing wrong? If you purchase a slave from a Slaver then you are a customer. No matter what your intentions, you have just helped a Slaver to profit from the life of another human. If that were the end of it then it would be acceptable. But that is not the end of it. That Slaver has profited today and will wish to profit again tomorrow. So he will go out and take fresh Slaves to replenish his stock. Will you buy those too? And the next day will you buy more? And when he goes out yet again to enslave yet more free people will you buy them too? To buy a Slave may make that one slave free, but it does nothing to end the practice of slavery. Until you give the Slaver cause to stop enslaving more people it will not end. Buying one Slave simply dooms someone else to the same fate. The only change is the growing wealth of the Slavers and that is no solution at all.

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