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Carriers -- The real Tech 2 Battleships?

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Woolygimp Caldari HeartVenom Inc. Knights Of the Southerncross	Posted - 2007.11.30 17:21:00 - [1] Edited by: Woolygimp on 30/11/2007 17:22:24 For those of you who would fly a Battleship, what advantages are there to flying a Battleship over a Carrier at the present time? Every class has it's advantages and disadvantages, but with Carriers they surpass Battleships in almost every aspect, and then some. The new Battleships will be released with Trinity, so why would anyone with the relevant skills choose to fly a Tech 2 Battleship over a Carrier? The Golem has a weaker tank than a Rokh, and that's saying a lot. Tech 2 Battleships won't even have that much of a damage boost over the normal Tier 1's. Fuel costs are laughable, and being able to pounce around in just a couple jumps is amazing. It will take a Tech 2 Battleship 3 hours to make a trip a Carrier can make in 2 minutes, not to mention all the more dangerous. We all know that the Tech 2 Battleships won't hold a candle to capitals in combat, so I won't even elaborate on this point. I just don't see the point to Tech 2 Battleships when their costs are almost identical to capitals, can someone enlighten me?
Gabriel Karade Nulli-Secundus	Posted - 2007.11.30 17:22:00 - [2] Can you use a stargate in a carrier? no... ---------- Video - 'War-Machine'
Woolygimp Caldari HeartVenom Inc. Knights Of the Southerncross	Posted - 2007.11.30 17:23:00 - [3] Originally by: Gabriel Karade Can you use a stargate in a carrier? no... That's it?
An Anarchyyt Gallente Sublime.	Posted - 2007.11.30 17:25:00 - [4] Edited by: An Anarchyyt on 30/11/2007 17:25:13 Well, they aren't similar at all. And as you said that you're new (month and a half), yourself, you probably shouldn't worry too much about a carrier. Originally by: CCP Wrangler Second, a gentile is a non jewish person
Woolygimp Caldari HeartVenom Inc. Knights Of the Southerncross	Posted - 2007.11.30 17:27:00 - [5] Edited by: Woolygimp on 30/11/2007 17:28:17 Originally by: An Anarchyyt Well, they aren't similar at all. And as you said that you're new (a few months), yourself, you probably shouldn't worry too much about a carrier. Why am I sinking months of training time, and subscription fees, into a game/ship class that will be 1-upped in every aspect by something with no disadvantages. I could fly a Tech2 Battleship within the month, but don't see any reason why these two ships cost about the same when one clearly has the advantage on all fronts. As far as similarity, yes one launches fighters and one uses weapons. By your reasoning I could say that the Dominix and the Raven aren't anything alike, because one uses drones as primary DPS and one missiles. Carriers have the same strengths as the battleship, and are able to effectively engage at similar distances and similar ship classes. What am I missing?
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2007.11.30 17:27:00 - [6] Marauders can't jump, Black Ops can. Black Ops can only jump a couple of times before refueling unless you "honour tank" them and fill them up with shedloads of fuel. Both Marauders and Black Ops can use stargates, Carriers can't. Both can use most mission gates, Carriers are locked out of most. Black Ops can jump to "stealth" cyno fields, Carriers announce their presence to all the galaxy. Black Ops can form a mini-jumpportal, for other cloakers without jumpdrives to follow them into the jump. C\|S\|I\|N\|x.
Gabriel Karade Nulli-Secundus	Posted - 2007.11.30 17:29:00 - [7] Originally by: Woolygimp Originally by: Gabriel Karade Can you use a stargate in a carrier? no... That's it? Fine. 1. Can operate solo if need be - no cyno requirement 2. Turrets 3. MWD 4. Much smaller sig radius 5. Probably still going to be cheaper 6. It's not a capital ship 7. IT'S NOT A CAPITAL SHIP Believe or not, a number of people can't be arsed with the whole capital ship 'thing' (and besides, regardless of temporary respite, you can guarantee the current 'solo' abilities of carriers will be getting a swing of the bat in the future) ---------- Video - 'War-Machine'
Tarminic Forsaken Resistance The Last Stand	Posted - 2007.11.30 17:30:00 - [8] Carriers have several disadvantages - whether those disadvantages are balanced regarding the rest of the ships in EVE is up for debate, however. Cannot use stargates, requires someone else to use a cyno-field to travel Has difficulty with targets smaller than other capital ships or battleships *Very slow ---------------- Tarminic - 29 Million SP in ~~pink~~ Forum Warfare
Woolygimp Caldari HeartVenom Inc. Knights Of the Southerncross	Posted - 2007.11.30 17:30:00 - [9] Originally by: Akita T Marauders can't jump, Black Ops can. Black Ops can only jump a couple of times before refueling unless you "honour tank" them and fill them up with shedloads of fuel. Both Marauders and Black Ops can use stargates, Carriers can't. Both can use most mission gates, Carriers are locked out of most. Black Ops can jump to "stealth" cyno fields, Carriers announce their presence to all the galaxy. Black Ops can form a mini-jumpportal, for other cloakers without jumpdrives to follow them into the jump. Let's get on to the aspect of combat. How many black-ops/marauders will it take to combat one carrier? Several. So what if carriers announce their presence, that information isn't that valuable and local isn't that hard to figure out.
Lilan Kahn Amarr The Littlest Hobos Insurgency	Posted - 2007.11.30 17:31:00 - [10] battel ships are the backbone of a fleet capitals are mostly spice addet to it. "Bringing Content to you 1 round of ammo at a time"
An Anarchyyt Gallente Sublime.	Posted - 2007.11.30 17:32:00 - [11] Edited by: An Anarchyyt on 30/11/2007 17:33:45 Well for one, being able to fly it, does not mean you are able to fit it will. You won't be able to use fighters, you won't be able to use capital sized guns, and you won't be able to use Tacitcal Logistics Reconfiguration.Not to mention, the large amount of other support skills you won't have in Electronics, Engineering, Mechanics, Capital sized repairers, and many other mods. So, even if you have the skill to sit in it, and the money to be it, if you jump straight into it, you will lose it twice as fast. But, even looking at the names, does "carrier" conjur up the same images? A Much better way to think about the carrier, is as a capital sized Logistics Ship, with capabilities to defend itself with many cruiser sized minions. And Black Ops are not meant for damage at all, they are meant for pushing Cov Ops ships past enemy lines. Originally by: CCP Wrangler Second, a gentile is a non jewish person
Zondrail Meridian Dynamics FREGE Alliance	Posted - 2007.11.30 17:32:00 - [12] mobility is a pretty big deal...
Woolygimp Caldari HeartVenom Inc. Knights Of the Southerncross	Posted - 2007.11.30 17:33:00 - [13] Originally by: Gabriel Karade Originally by: Woolygimp Originally by: Gabriel Karade Can you use a stargate in a carrier? no... That's it? Fine. 1. Can operate solo if need be - no cyno requirement 2. Turrets 3. MWD 4. Much smaller sig radius 5. Probably still going to be cheaper 6. It's not a capital ship 7. IT'S NOT A CAPITAL SHIP Believe or not, a number of people can't be arsed with the whole capital ship 'thing' (and besides, regardless of temporary respite, you can guarantee the current 'solo' abilities of carriers will be getting a swing of the bat in the future) This needs to happen, I don't see how it's balanced for carriers to operate at the rate at which they are doing currently. Tech 2 battleships are not capital ships, I understand that. Why then is their cost equivalent to one? Being slow isn't that big of a deal, a Rokh without skills has a default speed of what? 110m/s? SigRadius becomes a non-factor as soon as you are flying something of Battleship size, or larger.
Tarminic Forsaken Resistance The Last Stand	Posted - 2007.11.30 17:34:00 - [14] Originally by: Woolygimp Let's get on to the aspect of combat. How many black-ops/marauders will it take to combat one carrier? Several. So what if carriers announce their presence, that information isn't that valuable and local isn't that hard to figure out. I think that you're looking at things wrong here. You're thinking of the Battleship->Marauder relationship like the Cruiser->HAC relationship, which is not entirely correct. Indeed T2 battleships will be very combat-effective, but they are not designed exclusively for hitting harder and tanking better. They're designed to be able to operate longer without support and to have lower ammo consumption and greater variety. ---------------- Tarminic - 29 Million SP in ~~pink~~ Forum Warfare
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2007.11.30 17:36:00 - [15] Black Ops should end up costing 450-500 mil, Marauders 500-600 mil. Last time I checked, carriers were still selling for at least 1 bil, if not more. Marauders are for highsec missionrunners IMHO, and as such, they will excell at what they do... with the exception of the Golem maybe, which is kind of on par with the CNR (better for some, worse for others). Black Ops are the bastard stepchild of a Titan and a Stealth Bomber, if you can't see a use for that combo, meh@you. As for Capitals... meh... there's a lot less skill training required for either Black Ops or Marauders as for any Capital ship to properly fly... and you can switch from one Marauder/Black-Op to another a LOT easier (also, cheaper) as you can switch/crosstrain to another capital ship, be it Dread or Carrier. C\|S\|I\|N\|x.
Woolygimp Caldari HeartVenom Inc. Knights Of the Southerncross	Posted - 2007.11.30 17:36:00 - [16] Edited by: Woolygimp on 30/11/2007 17:39:29 You have all skills maxed to V in Eve. You have enough money to buy a ship (either Marauder/Carrier) and fully fit it. Who here would choose a Marauder, honestly? No. Honestly. ...and why? A fully rigged and fitted Marauder will easily cost around a Bil. I'm looking at it from a cost analysis standpoint. If an interceptor cost 1 billion to fit, you'd expect it to be damn good at it's job. For a good analogy, this is like both a Kestrel and an Crow both costing the same amount. Why would anyone fly the Kestrel, except for lack of skills?
Gabriel Karade Nulli-Secundus	Posted - 2007.11.30 17:39:00 - [17] Originally by: Woolygimp Originally by: Gabriel Karade Originally by: Woolygimp Originally by: Gabriel Karade Can you use a stargate in a carrier? no... That's it? Fine. 1. Can operate solo if need be - no cyno requirement 2. Turrets 3. MWD 4. Much smaller sig radius 5. Probably still going to be cheaper 6. It's not a capital ship 7. IT'S NOT A CAPITAL SHIP Believe or not, a number of people can't be arsed with the whole capital ship 'thing' (and besides, regardless of temporary respite, you can guarantee the current 'solo' abilities of carriers will be getting a swing of the bat in the future) This needs to happen, I don't see how it's balanced for carriers to operate at the rate at which they are doing currently. Tech 2 battleships are not capital ships, I understand that. Why then is their cost equivalent to one? Being slow isn't that big of a deal, a Rokh without skills has a default speed of what? 110m/s? SigRadius becomes a non-factor as soon as you are flying something of Battleship size, or larger. If you mean by 100 isk on Sisi then yes it's equivalent... however, unless you have the gift of foresight I'm not sure where your information on the cost of T2 Battleships on TQ comes from, given it will be wholly market driven. ---------- Video - 'War-Machine'
Woolygimp Caldari HeartVenom Inc. Knights Of the Southerncross	Posted - 2007.11.30 17:41:00 - [18] Edited by: Woolygimp on 30/11/2007 17:41:32 Ah. So if you want to PvP then it's Battleships -> Carriers. Marauders will have no use? Good to know that Marauders will have the 'mission-running niche'. I just don't see Marauders being worth the price they will will most likely be given, which is 750mil. They just won't be worth it. Carriers on the other hand...are worth every penny....and so much more.
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2007.11.30 17:41:00 - [19] Originally by: Woolygimp You have all skills maxed to V in Eve. You have enough money to buy a ship (either Marauder/Carrier) and fully fit it. Who here would choose a Marauder, honestly? No. Honestly. ...and why? A fully rigged and fitted Marauder will easily cost around a Bil. Marauder for PvP ? Don't make me laugh ! With that pathetic sensor strength, and the buff of Caldari ECM boats, you'd be pretty stupid to use them for anything other than highsec missionrunning. But picking between a Carrier and a Black Op, now, well, I'd probably go with the Black Ops ship, thank you very much, as I prefer to NOT rely on a cyno alt for each and every system jump I make, and also be able to ENTER highsec if I want to (carriers can't). C\|S\|I\|N\|x.
demonfurbie Minmatar Covert Nexus Apoapsis Multiversal Consortium	Posted - 2007.11.30 17:42:00 - [20] the cal black ops can jam a carrier to hell after it cynos in so what good is a jammed carrier gonna do also forgetting about skill cost to get in to a carrier when a t2 drone is popped its at most 2m and when a fighter is popped its about 25m they take about the same time to pop with due to drone speed and fighter sig
Woolygimp Caldari HeartVenom Inc. Knights Of the Southerncross	Posted - 2007.11.30 17:43:00 - [21] Originally by: Akita T Originally by: Woolygimp You have all skills maxed to V in Eve. You have enough money to buy a ship (either Marauder/Carrier) and fully fit it. Who here would choose a Marauder, honestly? No. Honestly. ...and why? A fully rigged and fitted Marauder will easily cost around a Bil. Marauder for PvP ? Don't make me laugh ! With that pathetic sensor strength, and the buff of Caldari ECM boats, you'd be pretty stupid to use them for anything other than highsec missionrunning. But picking between a Carrier and a Black Op, now, well, I'd probably go with the Black Ops ship, thank you very much, as I prefer to NOT rely on a cyno alt for each and every system jump I make, and also be able to ENTER highsec if I want to (carriers can't). This is exactly what I'm trying to argue. Carriers AS NOW are considered the Tech 2 Battleships. They 1-up the Marauder in EVERY SINGLE ASPECT except, "doh I can't entire empire." or "damn I have to use corpmates to move about."
Kwint Sommer Incoherent Inc Otaku Invasion	Posted - 2007.11.30 17:44:00 - [22] They aren't really comparable but just to shut you up: BS's can go in high sec BS's can use jump gates and thus can be moved without the help of someone else BS's don't run out of fuel and thus leave you stuck in a hostile system BS's can fit guns which can't be destroyed by smartbombs leaving you unarmed BS's weapons won't warp after a target never to return leaving you unarmed and out 300M BS's can quietly jump into a system rather than making a cyno everyone in the region will notice BS's can enter a cyno-jammed system BS's cost a 1/10 as much to fit and arm BS's can be insured for the full value of the ship BS's can't be scanned down in less time than it takes them to turn ___________________________________________ 5% Mining Implants & 5% Manufacturing Implants *From 110M to 150M
An Anarchyyt Gallente Sublime.	Posted - 2007.11.30 17:44:00 - [23] I would really like to understand how people think the Black Ops BSs are similar to Carriers in any way. Again, Carriers are carriers, and Black Ops BSs are designed to be able to go through enemy lines quietly, bring Cov Ops, and Recons with them, and thus be able to bring in Carriers, Dreadnaughts, Moms, Titans, behind enemy lines. Originally by: CCP Wrangler Second, a gentile is a non jewish person
Gabriel Karade Nulli-Secundus	Posted - 2007.11.30 17:45:00 - [24] Originally by: Woolygimp Edited by: Woolygimp on 30/11/2007 17:39:29 You have all skills maxed to V in Eve. You have enough money to buy a ship (either Marauder/Carrier) and fully fit it. Who here would choose a Marauder, honestly? No. Honestly. ...and why? I plan to for one. I have perfect skills for the Blasterthron, down to the very last detail, I can't fly a single T2 ship, or any other race ship. Why? because it's bloody good fun!... I don't want to prance around in an interceptor or a HAC, or sit in a 'super' fleet of capital ships hitting on a POS or humping a station... Well, the next logical step up from the Blasterthron (ok Navy Megathron aside) is the Kronos... ...and it looks amazing ---------- Video - 'War-Machine'
Woolygimp Caldari HeartVenom Inc. Knights Of the Southerncross	Posted - 2007.11.30 17:46:00 - [25] Stop bringing up Black-Ops, please. We are arguing about the straightforward combat ability of Battleships, Marauders, and Carriers. Black-Ops aren't even really going to be considered Tech2 Battleships, but more of an entirely different class. Their 'roles' are NOTHING comparative to each other, and this is like saying a HAC and a Cov-Ops are the same ships. So, no more black-ops. Explain why the Marauders aren't going to be an overpriced pieceS of **** in PvP.
Woolygimp Caldari HeartVenom Inc. Knights Of the Southerncross	Posted - 2007.11.30 17:47:00 - [26] Originally by: Kwint Sommer They aren't really comparable but just to shut you up: BS's can go in high sec BS's can use jump gates and thus can be moved without the help of someone else BS's don't run out of fuel and thus leave you stuck in a hostile system BS's can fit guns which can't be destroyed by smartbombs leaving you unarmed BS's weapons won't warp after a target never to return leaving you unarmed and out 300M BS's can quietly jump into a system rather than making a cyno everyone in the region will notice BS's can enter a cyno-jammed system BS's cost a 1/10 as much to fit and arm BS's can be insured for the full value of the ship BS's can't be scanned down in less time than it takes them to turn I bet you any amount of money that a Marauder won't be your ship of choice. I'll also bet that if I look up your killboard, you fly a Carrier by default.
Jaketh Ivanes Amarr Do Or Die And Live Or Try	Posted - 2007.11.30 17:47:00 - [27] Originally by: Woolygimp Edited by: Woolygimp on 30/11/2007 17:39:29 You have all skills maxed to V in Eve. You have enough money to buy a ship (either Marauder/Carrier) and fully fit it. Who here would choose a Marauder, honestly? No. Honestly. ...and why? A fully rigged and fitted Marauder will easily cost around a Bil. I'm looking at it from a cost analysis standpoint. If an interceptor cost 1 billion to fit, you'd expect it to be damn good at it's job. For a good analogy, this is like both a Kestrel and an Crow both costing the same amount. Why would anyone fly the Kestrel, except for lack of skills? I would, because I don't like the clumsiness of capital ships and I don't have a cyno alt.
Woolygimp Caldari HeartVenom Inc. Knights Of the Southerncross	Posted - 2007.11.30 17:52:00 - [28] Originally by: An Anarchyyt Regardless of what you think a Tech 2 BS is, they are Tech 2 BSs. But this whole discussion is ridiculous, as it goes much more, Exeq -> Oneiros -> Thanatos rather than any other way. A much more logical flow would be, Mega/Hyp/Domi -> Moros. I just don't understand how in one thread you are asking for help about relatively basic things, and then in another thread you are professing to know all about all these ships you've never even flown. Because I've seen the carrier fleets. I've seen just how common they are in 0.0. I understand why as well, they are simply the most cost effective combat ship out there, for their relatively cheap price their combat power is far greater than both Tech 1 and the soon to be Tech 2 Battleships (which are super underwhelming). I don't want to play a game, where every single person flies a god damn capital.
insidion Caldari Last of the Technocracy	Posted - 2007.11.30 17:53:00 - [29] Personally, I do think that the black ops needs to have fairly high reqs and cost for obvious reasons. The marauder does make me wonder what they were thinking though. The cost doesn't necessarily bother me that much (have to see when they hit TQ, but 300m or so I can live with so long as they don't suck which is another debate entirely) but the current skill reqs on SiSi are WTF for sure. I still haven't had the time to finish training Energy Management 5 to use heat, another oddly high skill req, especially for all the work that went into it. It's all theory until it hits TQ though I guess.
An Anarchyyt Gallente Sublime.	Posted - 2007.11.30 17:54:00 - [30] Edited by: An Anarchyyt on 30/11/2007 17:54:42 Seeing, and actually fighting in one are two different things. Not to mention, just because something happens a lot, does not mean that it is the only way, or the best way to go about something. And then again, there are those of us who are interested in things other than DPS, and don't have any interest in capitals, or even BSs. Originally by: CCP Wrangler Second, a gentile is a non jewish person

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