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Carriers -- The real Tech 2 Battleships?

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NeoTheo Caldari Species 5618 R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.11.30 18:44:00 - [61] ive grown beards, nailed the missus, and cooked tea in the time it takes a carrier to allign to a celestial object. BS's are proper ships, carriers are big, MASSIVELY slow, and turn like slower than a slow thing. (and generally not very fun to fly). anyone can run away from a carrier realistically, a BS is much harder to run away from. /Theo.
Haniblecter Teg F.R.E.E. Explorer Atrum Tempestas Foedus	Posted - 2007.11.30 18:45:00 - [62] I think the OP is trying to say that carriers, as they are now, are the step up in terms of power from a BS. What he's saying, and what CCP has stated, is that they dont want the carrier to be that next step, that must have after you attain sufficient BS skill. Carriers are for a support role to a fleet of BS's, not vice versa. Carriers now are too good. A fleet of them > a fleet of gang BS's. While they're being superior to BS's--damage wise--that fleet of carriers can carry 100's millions of compressed Trit, ammo, can Remote Rep each other in a spider tank extravaganza. That shouldnt be the case and CCP is going to limit them. ----------------- Friends Forever Kill. BoB. Dead.
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2007.11.30 18:47:00 - [63] Well, right now, thanks to the huge public outcry of carrier flyboys, the only thing that's getting nerfed is logistics (hauling) power. But you can rest assured this nerfbat will swing hard, and swing several times in the same place in the next months. C\|S\|I\|N\|x.
Woolygimp Caldari HeartVenom Inc. Knights Of the Southerncross	Posted - 2007.11.30 18:48:00 - [64] Originally by: Haniblecter Teg I think the OP is trying to say that carriers, as they are now, are the step up in terms of power from a BS. What he's saying, and what CCP has stated, is that they dont want the carrier to be that next step, that must have after you attain sufficient BS skill. Carriers are for a support role to a fleet of BS's, not vice versa. Carriers now are too good. A fleet of them > a fleet of gang BS's. While they're being superior to BS's--damage wise--that fleet of carriers can carry 100's millions of compressed Trit, ammo, can Remote Rep each other in a spider tank extravaganza. That shouldnt be the case and CCP is going to limit them. You are my hero. Thank you.
Tashiell Gao Caldari Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2007.11.30 18:50:00 - [65] haha i am loving it here i edited my previous post a bit, i copy pasted them below for you: "sigh i can fly a t2 bs in amarr can you fly a carrier in amarr? and a fully fitted carrier costs a bit more than 1 bil i think (i have never flown a cap myself but i think a fully fitted carrier would cost over 3 or 4 bil?) and a t2 fitted battle atm costs below 500mil now? plus 500mil for the cost of the new t2 ships, t2 costs 1 bil, 3-1=2 bil, yey you can buy al least two more fully fitted t2 battleships now" And such discusions should be talked about in your corpchat first before you come on to the forum and entertain people Tashiell Gao, Minmatar in side, RolePlayer.
Tarminic Forsaken Resistance The Last Stand	Posted - 2007.11.30 18:51:00 - [66] Edited by: Tarminic on 30/11/2007 18:51:45 Originally by: Woolygimp Originally by: Haniblecter Teg I think the OP is trying to say that carriers, as they are now, are the step up in terms of power from a BS. What he's saying, and what CCP has stated, is that they dont want the carrier to be that next step, that must have after you attain sufficient BS skill. Carriers are for a support role to a fleet of BS's, not vice versa. Carriers now are too good. A fleet of them > a fleet of gang BS's. While they're being superior to BS's--damage wise--that fleet of carriers can carry 100's millions of compressed Trit, ammo, can Remote Rep each other in a spider tank extravaganza. That shouldnt be the case and CCP is going to limit them. You are my hero. Thank you. Well hell, you should have put it that way to begin with. I can agree with that. Yes, damage-wise carriers are the next step up from Battleships, and they need some balancing in my opinion. But I don't think they're every player's end goal in EVE and they certainly aren't mine. ---------------- Tarminic - 29 Million SP in ~~pink~~ Forum Warfare
Woolygimp Caldari HeartVenom Inc. Knights Of the Southerncross	Posted - 2007.11.30 18:55:00 - [67] Originally by: Tarminic Edited by: Tarminic on 30/11/2007 18:51:45 Originally by: Woolygimp Originally by: Haniblecter Teg I think the OP is trying to say that carriers, as they are now, are the step up in terms of power from a BS. What he's saying, and what CCP has stated, is that they dont want the carrier to be that next step, that must have after you attain sufficient BS skill. Carriers are for a support role to a fleet of BS's, not vice versa. Carriers now are too good. A fleet of them > a fleet of gang BS's. While they're being superior to BS's--damage wise--that fleet of carriers can carry 100's millions of compressed Trit, ammo, can Remote Rep each other in a spider tank extravaganza. That shouldnt be the case and CCP is going to limit them. You are my hero. Thank you. Well hell, you should have put it that way to begin with. I can agree with that. Yes, damage-wise carriers are the next step up from Battleships, and they need some balancing in my opinion. But I don't think they're every player's end goal in EVE and they certainly aren't mine. But your end goal isn't a Battleship either. That's my problem, my end goal WAS a Battleship. There is no problem for Interceptor, Cruiser, HAC, Recon, Dictor, Support pilots because the Carrier has no usurped the role from those ships. The real people at stake, are those people who want to specialize in a large damage dealing fleet mainstay vessel, and their only option at this venue is going for Capitals. That's why you saw my previous post where I said I feel like abandoning my plans, and going for Interceptors instead. I just don't see a future flying a specialized Rokh in fleet.
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2007.11.30 18:58:00 - [68] This was a triumph. I'm making a note here: HUGE SUCCESS. It's hard to overstate my satisfaction. We do what we must because we can. For the good of all of us. Except the ones who are dead. But there's no sense crying over every mistake. You just keep on trying till you run out of cake. And the Science gets done, and you make a neat gun. For the people who are still alive... C\|S\|I\|N\|x.
Woolygimp Caldari HeartVenom Inc. Knights Of the Southerncross	Posted - 2007.11.30 19:02:00 - [69] If something isn't done about Carriers, with or without the developers being held hostage by the Carrier community, you will see Battleships (Black-Ops excluded) go the way of the Frigate. The only people flying them into combat are those who can't afford a better ship [i.e. the Carrier], or afford the skills to pilot those better ships.
Akita T Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force	Posted - 2007.11.30 19:09:00 - [70] The answer is obvious, isn't it ? Double the construction requirements (materials, time) of all carriers C\|S\|I\|N\|x.
Princess Jodi Vendetta Underground Rule of Three	Posted - 2007.11.30 20:06:00 - [71] Originally by: Kwint Sommer BS's can enter a cyno-jammed system Wait...What? I have seen nothing suggesting that they will have this ability. Please back up this statement with data or a linky.
Tarminic Forsaken Resistance The Last Stand	Posted - 2007.11.30 20:23:00 - [72] Originally by: Woolygimp Cmon Tarminic, even look at the title of this thread. "Carriers -- The Real Tech2 Battleships" I think it was pretty obvious the point I was trying to get off. Carriers are the next step up from Battleships, not Marauders. Well I still think that capital ships being the next "step up" depends alot on what you consider "step up." In many senses it's a step up (DPS, tank for example) but in others it's a huge step down (speed, agility, ability to use solo). So it really depends on what stair case you're climbing. But yes, I'm a bit of a n00b for not figuring that out sooner. ---------------- Tarminic - 29 Million SP in ~~pink~~ Forum Warfare
mishkof Caldari Emerald Empire Drunken N Disorderly	Posted - 2007.11.30 20:30:00 - [73] Edited by: mishkof on 30/11/2007 20:33:47 My suggestion. Get out of your Blobbing alliance to find the kind of PVP you are looking for. There are lots of entities that do not roll around with 40 carrier blobs. Battleships will never become obsolete. Edit: you are in the second largest alliance in game and complain about seeing 40 carrier together? I own a T2 BPO and have a Capital alt. Please hate/troll/smack me.
Princess Jodi Vendetta Underground Rule of Three	Posted - 2007.11.30 20:31:00 - [74] Ok. Now that I've read all the responses, I kinda get the OP's point. But its very misguided. It is true that alot of people move up to Carriers, and CCP has stated that they don't want that. So you can be sure that the present incarnation is not what it will be soon. But on other points, I have to set you straight: - Carrier skill books pass the half-bilion isk mark. - Carriers cost 1 bill, some more. - Fitting a Carrier is easily another bill, and that's without Officer fittings. - T2 BS's will be expensive at first, but you can expect them to fall to 250 mill or less in short order. Therefore you're at about a 8:1 cost ratio between the ships, NOT 'the same cost'. I've been training Carrier skills since the very idea of capitals was floated. I'm not done yet. Things like going from Carrier IV to Carrier V was 84 days (raw, without implants). The skills to fly a Carrier well are many times the training time as a BS. Capitals are great for STATIONARY targets, like POS's and Gatecamps. If you start a roaminng or moving fight, captials are nearly useless. That 'going thru a gate' thingy is really handy. Just moving a Carrier requires 2 accounts. As people keep saying, an unescorted Carrier is dead meat. So when you talk about operating a Carrier, think about having 3 BS's instead. FC's don't seem to want Capitals in their gangs. They don't want the responsibility if they get wasted, and generally don't know what they can/cannot do. They REALLY don't like to worry about making cynos and moving them around. While this attitude could change, it hasn't much in the year Capitals have been around. So while there is some concern about Carriers being too plentiful, your basic premise is flawed. You're trying to compare Apples to Oranges.
F'nog Amarr Celestial Horizon Corp. Valainaloce	Posted - 2007.11.30 20:56:00 - [75] Originally by: Princess Jodi Originally by: Kwint Sommer BS's can enter a cyno-jammed system Wait...What? I have seen nothing suggesting that they will have this ability. Please back up this statement with data or a linky. It's called a gate. Every system has at least 1. And why do people keep saying a fully-fitted Carrier is 1 bil? That's just the basic ship cost. Originally by: Karen Serasia Because some idiot decided to sell an internet connection to me and didn't think of the consequences.
Nhi'Khuna e X i l e Atrum Tempestas Foedus	Posted - 2007.11.30 21:10:00 - [76] Quote: Originally by: Gabriel KaradeCan you use a stargate in a carrier? no... Uh, that's actually quite a big tactical advantage. Ever try moving a cap fleet effectively? Hello. Talk about logistical nightmare and obscene fuel costs...
Janu Hull Caldari Order of Z Industries	Posted - 2007.11.30 21:21:00 - [77] Originally by: F'nog Originally by: Princess Jodi Originally by: Kwint Sommer BS's can enter a cyno-jammed system Wait...What? I have seen nothing suggesting that they will have this ability. Please back up this statement with data or a linky. It's called a gate. Every system has at least 1. And why do people keep saying a fully-fitted Carrier is 1 bil? That's just the basic ship cost. As insane as it might sound, not everyone flies carriers with full officer fits. The serious pilots might, but for every sovreign alliance fleet cap pilot with his soul in hock to Satan himself to finance his fit there's a dozen or more minor players who fly less than ultimate fit ups.
Gabriel Karade Nulli-Secundus	Posted - 2007.11.30 21:24:00 - [78] Originally by: Trespasser Edited by: Trespasser on 30/11/2007 18:44:57 Maruders are PVE SHIPS Do you understand now ? THERE PVE SHIPS To be more percise their *MISSION SHIPS* MARUDERS ARE NOT COMBAT SHIPS they would get pwned by everything else They aren't simply mission ships and you'd be a fool to treat them as such when facing them. Higher turret/launcher damage then the Tier2 hulls at half the capacitor cost Tanking bonus of the Tier 3 hulls T2 resistances Double the number '800' cap booster charges They have an EW hole yes, but then, any Battleship SOLO is usually vulnerable to EW... ---------- Video - 'War-Machine'
cal nereus Bounty Hunter - Dark Legion Brutally Clever Empire	Posted - 2007.11.30 21:30:00 - [79] It all depends: What do you want to use your ship for? What niche do you want to specialize in? What role do you want to fill? What purpose do you want to serve? --- Join BH-DL Skills
Cpt Fina Mutually Assured Distraction	Posted - 2007.11.30 21:34:00 - [80] Originally by: Woolygimp Or...I could quit. Battleships suck, I wish I had gone Interceptor or something. A year from now, the number of capitals is going to grow exponentially, while the number of Battleships is going to shrink. There's very little use for them. And I predict that a year from now everyone is going to fly Condors with lazors, not capitalships. Thus, based on my highly reliable prediction, CCP should nerf the effectiveness of Condors and small laser-turrets before it's too late.
Woolygimp Caldari HeartVenom Inc. Knights Of the Southerncross	Posted - 2007.11.30 21:37:00 - [81] Edited by: Woolygimp on 30/11/2007 21:38:42 According to the most recent Dev Blog there are more than ten thousand carriers in game. The Rokh I'm flying right now cost me over 450m to fit, and I think 1 billion for a capital is far too lenient. It should be much, much more because as is none of you can honestly tell yourself that capitals aren't too common. These weren't meant to be privately owned ships, these were meant to be Corporation/Alliance funded vessel. As is, everyone and their mother can go out and grab one... they do not cost THAT much.
cal nereus Bounty Hunter - Dark Legion Brutally Clever Empire	Posted - 2007.11.30 21:41:00 - [82] Maybe all the carrier salesmen should hike their prices? --- Join BH-DL Skills
J Valkor Blackguard Brigade Aftermath Alliance	Posted - 2007.11.30 21:53:00 - [83] Originally by: Woolygimp Originally by: Haniblecter Teg I think the OP is trying to say that carriers, as they are now, are the step up in terms of power from a BS. What he's saying, and what CCP has stated, is that they dont want the carrier to be that next step, that must have after you attain sufficient BS skill. Carriers are for a support role to a fleet of BS's, not vice versa. Carriers now are too good. A fleet of them > a fleet of gang BS's. While they're being superior to BS's--damage wise--that fleet of carriers can carry 100's millions of compressed Trit, ammo, can Remote Rep each other in a spider tank extravaganza. That shouldnt be the case and CCP is going to limit them. You are my hero. Thank you. Wasn't that supposed to be obvious?
Leon 026 Caldari Veto. Veto Corp	Posted - 2007.11.30 21:53:00 - [84] Or simply give frig pilots what they want : Bombers with anti-capital ship weapons. Then people will have to start relying on escorts instead of flying their solopwnmobile. You know something is messed up where almost every 'good' / big fight in 0.0 requires several if not more carriers, and low-sec is slowly becoming that way. ------- Leon 026 Once I was fallen, now I have wings
Aceoil Murder-Death-Kill	Posted - 2007.11.30 21:54:00 - [85] Can you make a carrier go 9km/s?? A Macharial can. Can you bump other carriers away from shields with your carrier? No you cannot. Can you fly a carrier well in 5 months? Well you can sure fly a BS well in 5 months. Can you afford a new carrier every time they blow up? What is wrong with this skill progression? Rookie Ship -> Frigate -> Destroyer -> Cruiser -> Battlecruiser -> Carrier..... Can you jump to a different system in your carrier when your cap has been drained? No, but you can in a battleship when jumping through a stargate. Can your carrier warp out in 10 seconds?? No. Can you go roaming with your carrier? No. LOL Jump 1 system every 10 mins. Can you jam other ships with ECM? NO! But a Scorpion can. Can you highsec suicide gank a freighter with carriers? LOL You could, I'd like to see you try.
demonfurbie Minmatar Covert Nexus Apoapsis Multiversal Consortium	Posted - 2007.11.30 23:01:00 - [86] Originally by: Woolygimp Stop bringing up Black-Ops, please. We are arguing about the straightforward combat ability of Battleships, Marauders, and Carriers. Black-Ops aren't even really going to be considered Tech2 Battleships, but more of an entirely different class. Their 'roles' are NOTHING comparative to each other, and this is like saying a HAC and a Cov-Ops are the same ships. So, no more black-ops. Explain why the Marauders aren't going to be an overpriced pieceS of **** in PvP. fine then a scorp
Woolygimp Caldari HeartVenom Inc. Knights Of the Southerncross	Posted - 2007.11.30 23:25:00 - [87] Can you make a carrier go 9km/s?? A Macharial can. A Rokh can't. Can you bump other carriers away from shields with your carrier? No you cannot. A Rokh can't. Can you afford a new carrier every time they blow up? They don't blow up that easily, after all it takes 5-10 Battleships to take a Carrier down. How easily are 500m rigged t2 Rokhs to replace? Can your carrier warp out in 10 seconds?? No. Yeah, My Rokh only takes about 40 seconds to perform an unaligned warp. Can you highsec suicide gank a freighter with carriers? LOL You could, I'd like to see you try. Again, who would suicide gank in a 500m rigged t2 fitted Rokh? -Thanks.
Valea Wrath Of Khaine	Posted - 2007.11.30 23:58:00 - [88] Carriers: lock terribly slow, move terribly slow, warp terribly slow, align terribly slow, huge sig radius, all weapons do max dps against it, can't use stargates, require fueling, can't go in high sec, takes a hauler to move the capital mods for it, can't do squat against small and fast ships, totally ineffective at soloing against all but the most inept targets, DOES LESS DPS THAN A MEGATHRON. Yap thats just what I would think of a t2 battleship as. To address your points, fuel costs add up to hundreds of millions of isk over the life of a carrier (hopefully). Getting a cyno pilot to a system can take just as long as getting there with conventionals, plus multiple jumps require several minutes of recharge. And being 80% cap drained after jump puts you in no condition to jump into the fray, whereas conventionals are good to go upon stargate jump. Battleships can defend against smaller ships better because of shorter lock times, and the potential to actually hit them, whereas fast ships can mwd away from drones while still staying in scram range. And the idea that a t2 battleship can't tank a carrier is absurd, fighters will go down like flies to BS fire, and even then, the roughly 1200 dps a carrier can produce can be shrugged off by a well tanked BS, so I would hope a t2 BS could handle it as well. --- signature removed - please email us to find out why (include a link to the image URL) - Jacques([email protected])
wapacz Ars ex Discordia GoonSwarm	Posted - 2007.12.01 00:07:00 - [89] Originally by: Woolygimp Can you make a carrier go 9km/s?? A Macharial can. A Rokh can't. Can you bump other carriers away from shields with your carrier? No you cannot. A Rokh can't. Can you afford a new carrier every time they blow up? They don't blow up that easily, after all it takes 5-10 Battleships to take a Carrier down. How easily are 500m rigged t2 Rokhs to replace? Can your carrier warp out in 10 seconds?? No. Yeah, My Rokh only takes about 40 seconds to perform an unaligned warp. Can you highsec suicide gank a freighter with carriers? LOL You could, I'd like to see you try. Again, who would suicide gank in a 500m rigged t2 fitted Rokh? -Thanks. did you get ripped off on rigs or something becuase there is no way a rohk should cost that much. Also go fly a carrier for a bit man. It really puts stuff in perspective. You have to always have fuel on hand, if not your stuck. Oh yeah have fun with begging and pleading to get a cyno somewhere. I have sat somewhere 3 hours while trying to get a cyno. Really a carrier sound cool and neat until you get in one and find you are sitting around doing nothing a lot. You can't really rat in the thing. When the off chance hostiles come through you go sit at a pos. That guy that just jumped out and got bubbled on the other side by a dictor. Yeah you can't go after him.
Woolygimp Caldari HeartVenom Inc. Knights Of the Southerncross	Posted - 2007.12.01 00:10:00 - [90] Originally by: Valea Carriers: lock terribly slow, move terribly slow, warp terribly slow, align terribly slow, huge sig radius, all weapons do max dps against it, can't use stargates, require fueling, can't go in high sec, takes a hauler to move the capital mods for it, can't do squat against small and fast ships, totally ineffective at soloing against all but the most inept targets, DOES LESS DPS THAN A MEGATHRON. Yap thats just what I would think of a t2 battleship as. To address your points, fuel costs add up to hundreds of millions of isk over the life of a carrier (hopefully). Getting a cyno pilot to a system can take just as long as getting there with conventionals, plus multiple jumps require several minutes of recharge. And being 80% cap drained after jump puts you in no condition to jump into the fray, whereas conventionals are good to go upon stargate jump. Battleships can defend against smaller ships better because of shorter lock times, and the potential to actually hit them, whereas fast ships can mwd away from drones while still staying in scram range. And the idea that a t2 battleship can't tank a carrier is absurd, fighters will go down like flies to BS fire, and even then, the roughly 1200 dps a carrier can produce can be shrugged off by a well tanked BS, so I would hope a t2 BS could handle it as well. Show me a Mega that can do 1500dps at max skills, with Carrier's range/tank to boot. Yeah, shut up.

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