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Gypsio III Darkness Inc.	Posted - 2007.12.04 16:07:00 - [61] Originally by: Flurren P.S. I really have no idea how you're getting even half of 460 dps out of your drake, which you claim in other posts is passively shield tanked. Unless you've gimped your tank completely by switching out all but one low for damage mods i just cant see it happening. 460 DPS on a Drake is rather low. 7x HAM II with Terror Rage (fine against BCs and larger) Named MWD, webbie, scram LSE II, 2x Inv II DC II, 3x BCS II (drop a BCS for a PDS if you need the PG) 5x T2 hobgoblins, 3x shield hardener rigs, or 3x extender rigs Needs PG implant, use the PDS otherwise. Add missile ROF and HAM damage implants if you feel like it. Good gank, tackle and a solid enough combination of HP/regen tank. Nobody primaries a Drake, anyway. I'll leave you to run this through EFT. My Drake does over 600 DPS. It's fun.
Diomidis Amarr Mythos Corp	Posted - 2007.12.04 16:57:00 - [62] Edited by: Diomidis on 04/12/2007 17:05:09 Besides Flurren simply excellent post, I'll have to make a notice: @Neena Valdi> Stop being so single minded, and read your ship's description for once... Oh, ok, skip the literature and go down to the bonuses - DOES IT IMPLY IN ANYWAYS THAT YOU SHOULD USE HAMMERHEADS? Does it say 10% bonus to drone's THERMAL dmg - cause I thought Drones boats could actually choose their dmg type. Should you had the bay to field just 1 wave of meds or heavies, the answer would be easy -> go for higher DPS unless you know what you are fighting against. But since you tend to value Iskies more than raw DPS, go for Valkyries or Vespas...problem solved for you... P.S. - Just make a quick calc of how much iskies worth of faction missiles a 47000+ Effective HP Myrmidon needs to go down, add the crazy repping potential of this ship with proper skills without even proper rigs, and then add up...yes, T2 Hammerheads are expensive, but everyone wanting "da best" pays a premium - it's not just the "poor Myrmidon pilots" - yes those fellas that cannot solo a Carrier...you poor things...
Juha85 Beasts of Burden YouWhat	Posted - 2007.12.04 17:21:00 - [63] Edited by: Juha85 on 04/12/2007 17:21:45 Originally by: Liang Nuren Nah, Drake and Hurricane are both better BC's than the Myrmidon now (even for solo work). Harbinger is iffy... I think the new Myrm will be roughly equivalent. Liang Lol, harbinger is quite possibly the best BC even now... or atleast very close to hurricane and myrmidon. You just have to know how to fly it. --------------------------------------- Please resize image to a maximum of 400 x 120, not exceeding 24000 bytes, ty. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] - Cortes
Neena Valdi Art of War	Posted - 2007.12.04 17:33:00 - [64] Edited by: Neena Valdi on 04/12/2007 17:34:47 Originally by: Flurren Edited by: Flurren on 04/12/2007 15:39:50 Lol, the thing is its pretty clear your version of overpowered is different from everyone elses. You're the type of person that tuts in annoyance when a 1vs1 fight against a ship of equivalent worth ends with you winning with your shield down to 25%. I repeat: stop playing theorycraft and start playing EVE Online. There is NO 1 vs 1 in EVE. Never was. Never will be. There is many more things that are important and sometimes even more important than simple raw point-blank dps, or tank. Originally by: Flurren I just find your comment that a ship with a tanking bonus isnt a defensive ship laughable in the extreme. The myrmidon is being changed to what it was supposed to be from the very start which is "a ship to prevent the navys young pilots from going out in a blaze of glory" or something along those lines. It was never meant to be a gank boat which is obscenely clear from its bonuses. It was never meant to be able to field 5 drones 2 sizes up from what most other BCs use. It was CCPs mistake and now theyre fixing it and you're whining. I admit i may have been wrong about long range, however it is possible to be short ranged and still defensively orientated. Originally by: Flurren And to add to comedy you still havent understood the drone changes. The myrmidon has two waves now so the first doesnt need to recharge instantly. Hello? It is possible to have 10 medium drones pre-Trinity too and post-Trinity only ONE set of drones consists of 2 heavies, 2 mediums, 1 small or only 3 heavies. Originally by: Flurren It recharges slightly while the second wave is dpsing instead and by the time the second wave is looking beaten up the fight will most likely be close to finishing anyway. I know people like you are averse to any sort of mathematics but lets look at the working for a second (im assuming 3 heavies because this does more dps than 5 mediums even though it may have some trouble catching very light ships. However most BC weapons have varying trouble hitting small light ships, so this is nothing unusual. Im also assuming all skills at V for consistency):- Total time required to destroy a hammerhead II with a med smartbomb assuming all skills at V:- (840.63 + 1440)/18.67 = 122 seconds. One-two volleys from few large smartbombs is enough to destroy HH's. One volley of heavy missiles from drake is enough. Huginn needs like 2-5 seconds to kill HH. Etc-etc. Welcome to EVE Online. Show me any other ship primary weapons of which is countered that effectively and of top of that show me any other ship that can lose like 5-7 mils in one fight evening if you win the fight. Originally by: Flurren EDIT: I also note you failed to answer my point that the hurricane is designed as a gank ship with 2 dps bonuses whereas the myrm will naturally have a stronger tank. Why exactly do you believe its tank and dps should be superior to all other BC? (you cant really count the passive drake for pvp as it has no gear to tackle with and pitiful dps and speed).[/quote Sigh... Stop playing theorycraft.
Liang Nuren The Avalon Foundation	Posted - 2007.12.04 17:36:00 - [65] Originally by: Neena Valdi I repeat: stop playing theorycraft and start playing EVE Online. There is NO 1 vs 1 in EVE. Never was. Never will be. There is many more things that are important and sometimes even more important than simple raw point-blank dps, or tank. I got a 1v1 a couple nights ago. They respected it. Liang -- Retired forum *****. Plz tell me to STFU. Yarr?
Neena Valdi Art of War	Posted - 2007.12.04 17:43:00 - [66] So you finally posted with your main, mr. Flurren? Good boy! Originally by: Diomidis Edited by: Diomidis on 04/12/2007 17:08:39 Edited by: Diomidis on 04/12/2007 17:05:09 Besides Flurren simply excellent post, I'll have to make a notice: @Neena Valdi> Stop being so single minded, and read your ship's description for once... Oh, ok, skip the literature and go down to the bonuses - DOES IT IMPLY IN ANYWAYS THAT YOU SHOULD USE HAMMERHEADS? No, but all arguments about 'myrm still is high dps' and 'myrm can launch two volleys' were about using hammerheads II. Replace hh's with valks and you wont even reach hurricanes dps. Originally by: Diomidis P.S. - Just make a quick calc of how much iskies worth of faction missiles a 47000+ Effective HP Myrmidon needs to go down, add the crazy repping potential of this ship with proper skills without even proper rigs, and then add up...yes, T2 Hammerheads are expensive, but everyone wanting "da best" pays a premium - it's not just the "poor Myrmidon pilots" - yes those fellas that cannot solo a Carrier...you poor things... Sigh... Originally by: Diomidis And the diff is that T2 ammo DO get spend to get the job done, T2 freq Crystals DO get worn to get the job done, a Drone MIGHT get destroyed will getting the job done. Oh, and launchers and guns also need to be reloaded...so yes, you might catch up for the dmg you receive before your drones get to your target... 5mil of faction ammo is enough for a month of everyday pvp.
Neena Valdi Art of War	Posted - 2007.12.04 17:45:00 - [67] Originally by: Gypsio III Originally by: Flurren P.S. I really have no idea how you're getting even half of 460 dps out of your drake, which you claim in other posts is passively shield tanked. Unless you've gimped your tank completely by switching out all but one low for damage mods i just cant see it happening. 460 DPS on a Drake is rather low. 7x HAM II with Terror Rage (fine against BCs and larger) Named MWD, webbie, scram LSE II, 2x Inv II DC II, 3x BCS II (drop a BCS for a PDS if you need the PG) 5x T2 hobgoblins, 3x shield hardener rigs, or 3x extender rigs Needs PG implant, use the PDS otherwise. Add missile ROF and HAM damage implants if you feel like it. Good gank, tackle and a solid enough combination of HP/regen tank. Nobody primaries a Drake, anyway. I'll leave you to run this through EFT. My Drake does over 600 DPS. It's fun. Read this Mr. Flurren.
Lord DerekSegan	Posted - 2007.12.04 17:59:00 - [68] "One-two volleys from few large smartbombs is enough to destroy HH's. One volley of heavy missiles from drake is enough. Huginn needs like 2-5 seconds to kill HH. Etc-etc. Welcome to EVE Online." Um... yea, except NO ONE fits smartbombs, especially when they are ratting. Thus, solo Myrm pwnboats win all the time when they solo-gank. Hello
Gypsio III Darkness Inc.	Posted - 2007.12.04 18:00:00 - [69] Quote: One-two volleys from few large smartbombs is enough to destroy HH's. One volley of heavy missiles from drake is enough. Huginn needs like 2-5 seconds to kill HH. Etc-etc. Welcome to EVE Online. This is rubbish though, it's more EFT Online. Anyone fitting "a few large smartbombs" deserves to kills drones in short order. They're gimping the rest of their fit to put those smarties on, and many ships simply can't handle the PG. Also, smarties are hardly viable in highsec wars - or outside stations at at gates, where most small-scale combat occurs. More to the point, when people are shooting your drones they're not shooting you. You should be grateful that these people aren't hammering on your own tank. Shooting drones is only sensible in 1v1s and very small gangs, and frequently not even then - especially if the droneboat pilot can easily replace those drones.
Diomidis Amarr Mythos Corp	Posted - 2007.12.04 18:03:00 - [70] Originally by: Neena Valdi No, but all arguments about 'myrm still is high dps' and 'myrm can launch two volleys' were about using hammerheads II. Replace hh's with valks and you wont even reach hurricanes dps. Well we wouldn't want to go THAT low, would we...the difference is that the Hurricane doesn't work in optimal most of the time or its very weak against tracking disruptors / speedy targets. And unlike what ppl think, EM and Explosive are actually great dmg types to use, rarely more tanked than thermal anyways, so there goes your raw DPS advantage. Originally by: Neena Valdi 5mil of faction ammo is enough for a month of everyday pvp. You either roll your smillie eyes too much and didn't do the math, or you have no clue that a Myrmidon will need more than 1M worth of Faction HM or HAMs to go down...surely its a nice trade-off but still you are over-exaggerating on the "unfairness" between ammo and drone actual costs.
Oam Mkoll Caldari HUSARIA Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2007.12.04 18:06:00 - [71] The President of the US will die to one Norwegian soldier 1on1. That does not mean US military needs a buff and Norway is overpowered. This game is not EFT, this game is Eve Online. You never fly alone. Hostiles, pirates and neutrals fly in the systems around you. --- I am violence boat
King Hopy Beasts of Burden YouWhat	Posted - 2007.12.04 18:20:00 - [72] Originally by: Neena Valdi 5mil of faction ammo is enough for a month of everyday pvp. With 5mil I can get around 2k of republic fleet emp M. This 2k of emp M is consumed in killing 2-4 npc'ing ravens drakes. So no, 5mil wont get me a months supply of emp m.
Neena Valdi Art of War	Posted - 2007.12.04 20:32:00 - [73] Originally by: Diomidis Originally by: Neena Valdi 5mil of faction ammo is enough for a month of everyday pvp. You either roll your smillie eyes too much and didn't do the math, or you have no clue that a Myrmidon will need more than 1M worth of Faction HM or HAMs to go down...surely its a nice trade-off but still you are over-exaggerating on the "unfairness" between ammo and drone actual costs. No, it wont cost 1m+. EVE is not about fighting 1 on 1. Stop this theory **** please and go play the actual game.
Neena Valdi Art of War	Posted - 2007.12.04 20:35:00 - [74] Originally by: King Hopy Originally by: Neena Valdi 5mil of faction ammo is enough for a month of everyday pvp. With 5mil I can get around 2k of republic fleet emp M. This 2k of emp M is consumed in killing 2-4 npc'ing ravens drakes. So no, 5mil wont get me a months supply of emp m. 1. 5mil = 4.5k of republic fleet emp M 2. Sigh...
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Uninvited Guests Cult of War	Posted - 2007.12.04 20:39:00 - [75] Originally by: Roy Batty68 Yes, that's the design. And its only for Gallente ships. CCP doesn't like you Gallente anymore. It's part of the Amarr "oomph" project. Originally by: Presidente Gallente You have no recharged shield backup anymore and this is another additional nerf to the Myrm. See, this would be you focusing on just your favorite ship. ALL drone users get nerfed by this, not just the Myrm. And shockingly, not just Gallente use drones. Yes gief more oomph!
Flurren	Posted - 2007.12.04 22:20:00 - [76] Its unsurprising you ignored the maths part of my post neena. The reason i say this is because unless you use calculations everything else in the game is an opinion. You can discuss the logical course of battles which is slightly more objective than simple opinions but still very opinion influenced but you fail to do even this. The content of your posts can basically be summarised thusly:- a) "noes! you're stupid go play eve, you dont play eve! i play eve all day long and i know more about you than eve!" To which i say, unless you play eve by mashing your face into the keyboard constantly and repetitively start discussing real qualities of the ships and their modes of combat and why you consider the myrmidon not to work anymore compared to other battlecruisers. I dunno you could even include a few numbers. After all eve is programmed in maths, you ignore it at your own peril. I wouldnt never say you can learn eve on theory craft alone. You need to know the UI and you need to be aware of your environment, what ships are close by, how they perform in combat and their strategies and what your own chances are. However, do you really think when ccp balances ships they simply argue about who did more pvp over the course of the last month? No, they discuss what the tactics are that each ship uses, how this fares against other ships, what that ships role is and then maybe do a bit of maths in a simulated battle before testing all this on a server. Sometimes they dont get it right but nobodies infallible. You play their game so you must agree with them most of the time or simply be very mashochistic. To summarize, "you play less than me" is not a valid rebuttal. and b) "omgz my ship with one damage bonus cant outdps this other ship with 2 damage bonuses, wtf man!? im gallente i shouldnt have to put up with this crap" Just because you're gallente doesnt automatically mean your ship does the most damage in its class. If you can come up with a valid reason that you should have both better dps and tank than a hurricane then by all means tell me it. To everyone else:- Id really like to hear your views on what i said about drones. Would shifting alot of drones hp to their shield and halving their shield recharge time make up for this drastic drone user nerf thats comming with trinity? That way drone boats with large bays can alternate waves if they are skillful and not lose too much dps (or money, thank you neena).
Flurren	Posted - 2007.12.04 22:35:00 - [77] Edited by: Flurren on 04/12/2007 22:35:34 Originally by: Gypsio III Originally by: Flurren P.S. I really have no idea how you're getting even half of 460 dps out of your drake, which you claim in other posts is passively shield tanked. Unless you've gimped your tank completely by switching out all but one low for damage mods i just cant see it happening. 460 DPS on a Drake is rather low. 7x HAM II with Terror Rage (fine against BCs and larger) Named MWD, webbie, scram LSE II, 2x Inv II DC II, 3x BCS II (drop a BCS for a PDS if you need the PG) 5x T2 hobgoblins, 3x shield hardener rigs, or 3x extender rigs Needs PG implant, use the PDS otherwise. Add missile ROF and HAM damage implants if you feel like it. Good gank, tackle and a solid enough combination of HP/regen tank. Nobody primaries a Drake, anyway. I'll leave you to run this through EFT. My Drake does over 600 DPS. It's fun. Thats really the maximum dps you're ever going to get out of a drake isnt it :P. I put it in with all skills maxed and it comes to 610 so you'd have to be one old char and pretty much have the worst tanked drake in the world :P. Also couldnt run the MWD for more than a minute before you have to switch it off permanently as the thing is only just cap stable without it running. However i can see the attraction to having a drake with a hp buffer and ridiculous dps charging round a fleet battle owning things unexpectedly :P. Wish i had the skills to do it myself :).
Gorefacer Caldari Resurrection	Posted - 2007.12.05 00:07:00 - [78] Originally by: Frug They have said that drone shields won't recharge anymore in one of the dev posts. I don't fly gall ships and I think that change seems a bit unnecessary. I don't fly gall ships either, but I was always under the impression that this change alone would be more than sufficient to bring Myrm in line. "You can't reason someone out of a belief they haven't reasoned themselves into" - Prometheus
Gypsio III Darkness Inc.	Posted - 2007.12.05 00:54:00 - [79] Edited by: Gypsio III on 05/12/2007 00:54:29 Originally by: Flurren Thats really the maximum dps you're ever going to get out of a drake isnt it :P. I put it in with all skills maxed and it comes to 610 so you'd have to be one old char and pretty much have the worst tanked drake in the world :P. Also couldnt run the MWD for more than a minute before you have to switch it off permanently as the thing is only just cap stable without it running. However i can see the attraction to having a drake with a hp buffer and ridiculous dps charging round a fleet battle owning things unexpectedly :P. Wish i had the skills to do it myself :). I do lowsec piracy, so mobility and nanogangs are less of an issue than for what I hear 0.0 is like. Typically, most combat occurs at stations and gates (hence Myrm uberness), and MWD is needed only to get into range or to leg it back to a gate - cap stability isn't required. Which is just as well, seeing as how the Rage ammo screws cap recharge... The missile ROF and HAM damage implants help a bit - it maxes out at 674 DPS with 3% implants (641 DPS without implants, not sure how you got 610, maybe drone or ammo type?) . The tank isn't that bad - but it certainly doesn't compare to the "classic" PVE Drake, and you won't be permatanking sentries, which is a nice feature of the full-blown passive-regen Drake. But it is fun to top killmails in a Drake, ahead of CS and BS.
Neena Valdi Art of War	Posted - 2007.12.06 09:47:00 - [80] Originally by: Flurren Edited by: Flurren on 04/12/2007 22:38:59 Edited by: Flurren on 04/12/2007 22:37:52 Its unsurprising you ignored the maths part of my post neena. The reason i say this is because unless you use calculations everything else in the game is an opinion. You can discuss the logical course of battles which is slightly more objective than simple opinions but still very opinion influenced but you fail to do even this. 1. Your calculations are wrong. I told you to stop playing theorycraft. 2. By this nerf Myrm was put UNDER the line as its gang role is inferior to other BC's. Maybe ask yourself why is everyone were in hurry toget rid of myrmidons? Perhaps, because they are able to recognize that this BC is not worth a peny anymore? Turn on your brain please next time before you post.
Gypsio III Darkness Inc.	Posted - 2007.12.06 10:00:00 - [81] Turn yours on. The Myrm is fine. It can do everything a Drake can do, and do those things better. Still. It ganks more. It tanks more. It's more ewar-resistant. It's more flexible. It's more mobile. It can fit tackle without gimping its tank.
Neena Valdi Art of War	Posted - 2007.12.06 10:06:00 - [82] Edited by: Neena Valdi on 06/12/2007 10:06:35 Originally by: Gypsio III Turn yours on. The Myrm is fine. It can do everything a Drake can do, and do those things better. Still. It ganks more. It tanks more. It's more ewar-resistant. It's more flexible. It's more mobile. It can fit tackle without gimping its tank. Sigh...1) EVE is not solo game 2) drone travel time; 3) blaster range <5km; 4) drones can be easily killed; 5) myrm tanks only while it have charges while drake can be easily passive tanked; 6) drake can be loaded with fof missiles while drones will shoot back only if were launched before you got aggroed; Drake >> myrmidon as it is trully best antisupport.
Inir Ishtori The Guardian Agency Guardian Federation	Posted - 2007.12.06 10:18:00 - [83] Edited by: Inir Ishtori on 06/12/2007 10:18:49 Originally by: Neena Valdi 1. 5mil = 4.5k of republic fleet emp M 2. Sigh... it's not like a myrmidon won't be using faction ammo with those 6 turrets isk for drones + isk for faction ammo >> isk for ammo alone
Gypsio III Darkness Inc.	Posted - 2007.12.06 11:08:00 - [84] Originally by: Neena Valdi Edited by: Neena Valdi on 06/12/2007 10:06:35 Originally by: Gypsio III Turn yours on. The Myrm is fine. It can do everything a Drake can do, and do those things better. Still. It ganks more. It tanks more. It's more ewar-resistant. It's more flexible. It's more mobile. It can fit tackle without gimping its tank. Sigh...1) EVE is not solo game 2) drone travel time; 3) blaster range <5km; 4) drones can be easily killed; 5) myrm tanks only while it have charges while drake can be easily passive tanked; 6) drake can be loaded with fof missiles while drones will shoot back only if were launched before you got aggroed; Drake >> myrmidon as it is trully best antisupport. Sigh indeed. 1) Inconsequential to this comparison. 2-3) Most non-fleet combat occurs at gates and at undock ramps - everyone starts within overheated web range, hence drone flight time and blaster range are largely irrelevant. Sentry drones also. 4) No-one is going to kill your drones in gang - they're going to shoot you instead. And remember, "Eve isn't solo game". 5) Passive-regen Myrm tanks better than passive-regen Drake, and can actually do something useful at the same time. Also, a passive-regen Drake is generally a waste of time in pvp - it's unnecessarily expensive and has gimped damage and cap - that's why I stated the passive-HP Drake above. 6) There are no FOFs for the "pvp" missiles - rockets, HAMs and torps. Deploying drones in time is hardly Challenge Anneka, come on. For fleet antisupport work, I wouldn't take either Drake or Myrm though.
Neena Valdi Art of War	Posted - 2007.12.06 11:25:00 - [85] No, really... this is not even funny. The amount of ignorance here is ridiculous. Originally by: Gypsio III 1) Inconsequential to this comparison. 2-3) Most non-fleet combat occurs at gates and at undock ramps - everyone starts within overheated web range, hence drone flight time and blaster range are largely irrelevant. Sentry drones also. Have you ever flew a myrmidon or dominix? Apparently not. In 90+% of cases the target will be at good 14+ kms away from you and up to 30ish if you and target jump through the gate. Myrmidon MWD speed is at about 1km/s. 10ish seconds to turn, then 10+ seconds to approach for your blaster range. By this time all other BC will be FAR ahead of you in damage done while you have to burn the cap from target to target. HH's do mere 2xx dps even with bonuses. Valk's do much less. Very often nowadays BS's have fitted 1 and more smartbombs. You may notice it in time, you may not notice it and your drones go pooooof. Even if you notice you can't put drones on such target so your dps is only dps from turrets. Originally by: Gypsio III 4) No-one is going to kill your drones in gang - they're going to shoot you instead. And remember, "Eve isn't solo game". Stop playing theorycraft. Originally by: Gypsio III 5) Passive-regen Myrm tanks better than passive-regen Drake, and can actually do something useful at the same time. Also, a passive-regen Drake is generally a waste of time in pvp - it's unnecessarily expensive and has gimped damage and cap - that's why I stated the passive-HP Drake above. Stop playing theorycraft. No one uses passive tanked myrmidons in pvp. Originally by: Gypsio III 6) There are no FOFs for the "pvp" missiles - rockets, HAMs and torps. Deploying drones in time is hardly Challenge Anneka, come on. Stop playing theorycraft. We are talking about drakes and heavy missiles. Originally by: Gypsio III For fleet antisupport work, I wouldn't take either Drake or Myrm though. Ofc you wouldn't as you have no clue apparently.

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