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Presidente Gallente Pirate Hunters Inc Exa Nation	Posted - 2007.12.01 11:09:00 - [1] I have no idea if that is +a bug½ or a +new feature½. The nerf of Myrm is anyway too much actually. It had been better to take away one heavy drone for combat instead of 2 and keep the drone bay to 6 like actually. My latest experience on SISI shows up that this wasn't enough. When you get damaged drones in and you re-launch them the shield is still at zero. That means the drones will die under the next attack faster the more they are in armor and structure. You have no recharged shield backup anymore and this is another additional nerf to the Myrm. Can someone give me an answer if that is how drones actually work or do we expect a change to the old +shield recharged½ method when the official Trinity is coming. Actually the Myrm is a dead ship IMO. Pres G +++ JOIN PAP +++
Frug Zenithal Harvest	Posted - 2007.12.01 11:12:00 - [2] They have said that drone shields won't recharge anymore in one of the dev posts. I don't fly gall ships and I think that change seems a bit unnecessary. - - - - - - - - - Do not use dotted lines - - - - - - - If you think I'm awesome, say BOOO BOOO!! - Ductoris Neat look what I found - Kreul Hey, my marbles

ISD Valorem Amarr ISD STAR	Posted - 2007.12.01 11:13:00 - [3] Moved from General Discussion to Ships and Modules. forum rules \| CAOD Rules \| [email protected] \| Our Website

Amarria Black Clan Anthraxx	Posted - 2007.12.01 11:15:00 - [4] Originally by: Frug They have said that drone shields won't recharge anymore in one of the dev posts. I don't fly gall ships and I think that change seems a bit unnecessary. The downside to drones has always been that by attacking them, your opponent decreases your DPS. Insta-recharge eliminated this more or less, with sentries being the most abusable. This change makes nothing but sense.
Kala Veijo Veto Corp	Posted - 2007.12.01 11:16:00 - [5] Edited by: Kala Veijo on 01/12/2007 11:20:21 >> Launch drone wave 1. Drone wave 1 gets beaten to pulp. >> Scoop drone wave 1. >> Launch drone wave 2. When wave 2 gets beaten to pulp you¦ll drop the wave 1 out again. You keep cycling drone waves untill: A. Target is dead B. You¦re dead C. All your waves are dead. Oh and drone shield recharge when they¦re in dronebay. Not instant recharge but recharge nonetheless.
Roy Batty68 Caldari Immortal Dead	Posted - 2007.12.01 11:20:00 - [6] Yes, that's the design. And its only for Gallente ships. CCP doesn't like you Gallente anymore. It's part of the Amarr "oomph" project. Originally by: Presidente Gallente You have no recharged shield backup anymore and this is another additional nerf to the Myrm. See, this would be you focusing on just your favorite ship. ALL drone users get nerfed by this, not just the Myrm. And shockingly, not just Gallente use drones. ---- WSSH
Wu Jiun	Posted - 2007.12.01 11:24:00 - [7] Drones continue to recharge their shields in bay just as they would if they were launched but with a constant recharge per time. Instant recharge is out of the window! Calling the myrmi a dead ship because of it is stupid though. Its still an excellent ship just not as good as before. Your drones are now actually killable even if you know what you do, but if you use only mediums you'll have enough spares to outlast a fight. I had personally taken away turret slots and pg from the myrmi and give it a decent dronebay with 125m¦ bandwidth instead. Same for the eos but somehow CCP decided to go the other way. But seriously a few weeks ago you already made a whine post about how you cannot break tanks with the new myrmi. I mean honestly where is your dignity? Myrmi is awesome atm and will still be pretty good after the changes. Nothing to see here.
Naviset	Posted - 2007.12.01 12:04:00 - [8] Originally by: Wu Jiun Drones continue to recharge their shields in bay just as they would if they were launched but with a constant recharge per time. Instant recharge is out of the window! Calling the myrmi a dead ship because of it is stupid though. Its still an excellent ship just not as good as before. Your drones are now actually killable even if you know what you do, but if you use only mediums you'll have enough spares to outlast a fight. I had personally taken away turret slots and pg from the myrmi and give it a decent dronebay with 125m¦ bandwidth instead. Same for the eos but somehow CCP decided to go the other way. But seriously a few weeks ago you already made a whine post about how you cannot break tanks with the new myrmi. I mean honestly where is your dignity? Myrmi is awesome atm and will still be pretty good after the changes. Nothing to see here. CCP decided to do BOTH to the Eos :-P As well as nerf its bay and its warfare links <3
Aerin Cloudfayr Extreme Addiction Atrum Tempestas Foedus	Posted - 2007.12.01 12:10:00 - [9] This kindof makes the Myrmi fly like the description states - something about trying to encourage pod pilot survivability by staying back out of the fight and managing to outlast the opponent or something. Using medium drones, you should do well enough as a gang support ship, Solo PVP with this beggar is out of the window now though - which makes the Brutix worth flying for that purpose i would guess... Myrm isn't dead, the solo pvp flight style for it is.
Presidente Gallente Pirate Hunters Inc Exa Nation	Posted - 2007.12.01 12:14:00 - [10] Originally by: Aerin Cloudfayr Myrm isn't dead, the solo pvp flight style for it is. That is what I meant! For solo PvP it's now a piece of crap. Why did CCP change from white to black and not inbetween? +++ JOIN PAP +++
goomba freehand Polaris Project Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2007.12.01 12:17:00 - [11] solo pv is not dead with this ship at all. just use T2 meds and a full rack of blasters and you can still do alot of damage and out tank them. the only ship that is now dead from this patch is the eos
Wu Jiun	Posted - 2007.12.01 12:17:00 - [12] Originally by: Aerin Cloudfayr Myrm isn't dead, the solo pvp flight style for it is. No it isnt? Gosh some gallenteans are really spoiled. Ship isnt the be all end all anymore -> i don't fly it. Cane might arguably be better now but thats about it. How does this keep you from soloing in the ship?
Riho Northen Breeze	Posted - 2007.12.01 12:31:00 - [13] posting in myrm whine thread 1000000000000000000223124145 adapt or die take your pick PS: yes im a myrm/eos pilot so i know what im talking about
Wu Jiun	Posted - 2007.12.01 12:33:00 - [14] Originally by: Naviset CCP decided to do BOTH to the Eos :-P As well as nerf its bay and its warfare links <3 Yeah, usual ccp style. If they decide to nerf a ship it usually gets totally overkilled. This is not true for the myrmi though. And from that point of view one can actually be grateful that the ship is still pretty viable after patch.
Elias Modron Lucretia Seven Nihil-Obstat	Posted - 2007.12.01 12:59:00 - [15] I really am getting very, very sick of all the drone whining going on.
Polly Prissypantz	Posted - 2007.12.01 13:37:00 - [16] I like the Myrm a lot. But just because I like a ship doesn't mean it doesn't need fixing. The Myrm was overpowered for a tech 1 battlecruiser. The drone bandwidth brings it down a notch so that it's a bit more in line with it's other battlecruiser brethren. As to the drones not getting instant shields? Sure, it sucks, but it isn't a Myrm nerf - it's a nerf in general. And to be honest, probably was necessary. I know I sure have abused the drone instant shield regen in my time, both in PvP and missions.
Lexiana Del'Amore Gallente Nouvelle Rouvenor	Posted - 2007.12.01 13:48:00 - [17] Originally by: Roy Batty68 CCP doesn't like you Gallente anymore. It's part of the Amarr "oomph" project.
Fedman Kasad Minmatar Bulgarian Mafia Squad Sons of Tangra	Posted - 2007.12.01 14:25:00 - [18] Dear god people, the patch is not even out yet and there are countless whine threads about X ship being killed by CCP. Honestly, this ** happens at every patch, why can't people just STFU and stop crying for a while? Things are, as they are, deal with it. I am not saying CCP are flawless and all their decisions are perfect, but you can be sure that the people who actually design those changes have a much more GENERAL look at the game mechanics than any of you and don't just randomly jump to decisions. Also, claiming that a general** change of a game mechanic is actually a nerf of a single ship is so close-minded that you automatically lose all creditability to make a point. On top of that, i do believe the bandwidth is a good decision. It would probably need some more tweaking to balance things, but that will come with time. Having a nano cruiser field BS sized weapons(Nano Ishtar with Heavy Drones anyone?) wasn't all that balanced either now, was it? In short: CRY MORE NOOBS :/ [-------------------------------------------------] Tears stream behind my visor, but eyes look unblinking at the world
LUH 3471	Posted - 2007.12.01 14:40:00 - [19] Edited by: LUH 3471 on 01/12/2007 14:40:59 insta recharge sucks so does this slow rehcarge rate we have now so we need recharge rate inbetween those two extremes go ccp go
Polly Prissypantz	Posted - 2007.12.01 14:43:00 - [20] Originally by: Fedman Kasad Having a nano cruiser field BS sized weapons(Nano Ishtar with Heavy Drones anyone?) wasn't all that balanced either now, was it? You do realise that the Ishtar will have 125m3 bandwidth, right? =P
Fedman Kasad Minmatar Bulgarian Mafia Squad Sons of Tangra	Posted - 2007.12.01 14:48:00 - [21] I said it might need more polishing, didn't I? ;) [-------------------------------------------------] Tears stream behind my visor, but eyes look unblinking at the world
Banzai OdiN Caldari Species 5618 R0ADKILL	Posted - 2007.12.01 15:07:00 - [22] My opinion, give the guys with the higher sp slack, introduce skills with high reqs that buff these drones significantly but need severral months in pre reqs eg.
Fedman Kasad Minmatar Bulgarian Mafia Squad Sons of Tangra	Posted - 2007.12.01 15:09:00 - [23] What would that achieve? Enlarge the gap between newbies and oldbies EVEN more? [-------------------------------------------------] Tears stream behind my visor, but eyes look unblinking at the world
Kadoes Khan	Posted - 2007.12.01 15:37:00 - [24] Originally by: Banzai OdiN My opinion, give the guys with the higher sp slack, introduce skills with high reqs that buff these drones significantly but need severral months in pre reqs eg. I don't see that as a great idea as it makes your training more important than your skills as a pilot. -=^=- "Someday the world will recognize the genius in my insanity."
Eska Royson Gallente Incoherent Inc Otaku Invasion	Posted - 2007.12.01 15:51:00 - [25] I fly a Myrm. Have done for a long time. Being unable to launch 5 Heavies anymore doesn't phase me in the slightest. I use the Myrm in a PvE context, and launching 5 Ogres isn't practical. They can't hit frigs (and frigs are present in levels 1 through 4), and they're slooooow, so if aggro switches onto them, they'll take an age to get back. Once one is popped, I'm down to 4 drones. That's a significant DPS drop. I'm happy packing 12 mediums instead. They can hit everything, can take down anything (granted, a bit longer for a BS) and I've got 12 if any get popped. Plus, they're quicker. The bandwidth is NOT a nerf for me. However, that said... the shield recharge, or lack thereof... I think I'll need to play about with it before making judgement. I'm willing to adapt, however, rather than whine. Because that's the nature of Eve :)
William DeMeo Gallente the united	Posted - 2007.12.01 16:08:00 - [26] Originally by: Fedman Kasad Dear god people, the patch is not even out yet and there are countless whine threads about X ship being killed by CCP. Honestly, this ** happens at every patch, why can't people just STFU and stop crying for a while? Things are, as they are, deal with it. I am not saying CCP are flawless and all their decisions are perfect, but you can be sure that the people who actually design those changes have a much more GENERAL look at the game mechanics than any of you and don't just randomly jump to decisions. Also, claiming that a general** change of a game mechanic is actually a nerf of a single ship is so close-minded that you automatically lose all creditability to make a point. On top of that, i do believe the bandwidth is a good decision. It would probably need some more tweaking to balance things, but that will come with time. Having a nano cruiser field BS sized weapons(Nano Ishtar with Heavy Drones anyone?) wasn't all that balanced either now, was it? In short: CRY MORE NOOBS :/ You're the noob to be honest, now go add drones to overview and suck it up. Yarr
Smacktalking Alt	Posted - 2007.12.01 16:40:00 - [27] Originally by: Fedman Kasad Having a nano cruiser field BS sized weapons(Nano Ishtar with Heavy Drones anyone?) wasn't all that balanced either now, was it? What exactly has changed about nano Ishtars, out of curiosity?
Helen Hunts Gallente Red Dragon Mining inc Red Dragon Industries	Posted - 2007.12.01 16:47:00 - [28] As a Myrmidon pilot who loves drones, I welcome the changes that Trinity will bring. No flights of 5 Ogres...aww gee...where's the problem? No insta-recharge...I guess we'll have to actually do a little thinking and planning now. But on the plus side, the new drone controls will make life for a droneboat pilot just a little easier than before. Expanded dronebays can only be a plus unless you don't use drones at all. (or are on the recieving endof the expanded drone-swarms) Adapt, or die by those who have. I'm adapting just fine, how about you? _______________________________ Mine da rocks, make more ships. Pop da rats, make more rigs. Sell da gear, make more money. Any Questions?
Endo Dy Gallente Enrave Knights Of the Southerncross	Posted - 2007.12.01 17:38:00 - [29] Myrmidon pre-Trinity: overpowered through the roof. Myrmidon after nerf: more balanced, remaining one hell of a ship. .
Nalena Arlath	Posted - 2007.12.01 20:42:00 - [30] Originally by: Endo Dy Myrmidon pre-Trinity: overpowered through the roof. Myrmidon after nerf: more balanced, remaining one hell of a ship. . People will always complain when their "poon-boats" get adjusted to more balanced levels. It's a law of nature in MMO's.
Orange pirate Gallente	Posted - 2007.12.01 21:14:00 - [31] Drones're slightly nerfed. Certainly gallente feeling worse than others about this fact. Nobody likes loosing candies.
Helen Hunts Gallente Red Dragon Mining inc Red Dragon Industries	Posted - 2007.12.01 21:36:00 - [32] Nerf nothing, I'm getting a boost out of this one. Improved drone controls and the chance to play with named drones. Not to mention that I'll be able to field more flights of drones to let the first batch rest up a bit. I'd like to see perhaps a slight increase in drone shield recharge while docked, but I'm still a happy Myrm pilot. _______________________________ Mine da rocks, make more ships. Pop da rats, make more rigs. Sell da gear, make more money. Any Questions?
Liang Nuren The Avalon Foundation Knights Of Syndicate	Posted - 2007.12.01 21:39:00 - [33] I love how virtually all of the Gallente pilots have eventually just given up posting on these forums. The Caldari whine squad (of which I am a member, btw) has totally beaten them into oblivion with their "oh its now a completely balanced boat hahahaha u noob" comments. The problem is that they're looking at half the story. Sure, it can output only like 500 DPS ... within 3km. My Drake can output 460 with a better tank at 80km. Hmmmmmmmmmmm... AND Caldari's getting 10+ boosts this patch. There's no way to deny it, or get around it: We're entering a strong Caldari age in PVP (and it's ALWAYS Caldari age in PVE). I don't think any of the Gallente pilots that I know are particularly upset about the number of boosts Caldari are getting - they're mostly looking at the number of nerfs they're getting. So before the balance was probably something like: Gallente >> Minmatar > Amarr > Caldari Now it's like: Caldari >> Minmatar > Gallente > Amarr I'm not so sure that CCP likes that >> sign to the right of either Gallente OR Caldari. Liang -- Retired forum *****. Plz tell me to STFU. Yarr?
Neena Valdi Art of War	Posted - 2007.12.01 22:01:00 - [34] Lost today my last myrmi and not going to buy any more of them. Its a total waste considering upcoming changes in trinity. GG CCP.
welsh wizard Celestial Apocalypse Insurgency	Posted - 2007.12.01 22:01:00 - [35] Edited by: welsh wizard on 01/12/2007 22:01:39 ECM is just about powerful enough as it is now. they should have changed the hulls rather than the Ewar strength imo (scorp exception, it needed full ewar strength). The railboats are still shambolic and the Ravens better for close range pvp, not a massive change tbh. The agility change is significant though. edit: sorry for hijack [Balance] The Caldari problem.
goomba freehand Polaris Project Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2007.12.01 22:02:00 - [36] this is not the age of caldari all it means is that you get to use your ewar on your ewar ships and your torps are now inline with our blasters but also remember that to get the real damage out of your torps you have to sacrifice your tank
Cyan Nuevo Dudes In Crazy Killing Ships	Posted - 2007.12.01 22:09:00 - [37] Originally by: Neena Valdi Lost today my last myrmi and not going to buy any more of them. Its a total waste considering upcoming changes in trinity. GG CCP. OK, tell me what ship you start flying now. I have a feeling you'll find the Myrmidon is still the best solo battlecruiser. --- Proud Amarr pilot.
Liang Nuren The Avalon Foundation Knights Of Syndicate	Posted - 2007.12.01 22:18:00 - [38] Originally by: Cyan Nuevo Originally by: Neena Valdi Lost today my last myrmi and not going to buy any more of them. Its a total waste considering upcoming changes in trinity. GG CCP. OK, tell me what ship you start flying now. I have a feeling you'll find the Myrmidon is still the best solo battlecruiser. Nah, Drake and Hurricane are both better BC's than the Myrmidon now (even for solo work). Harbinger is iffy... I think the new Myrm will be roughly equivalent. Liang -- Retired forum *****. Plz tell me to STFU. Yarr?
Neena Valdi Art of War	Posted - 2007.12.01 22:20:00 - [39] Originally by: Liang Nuren Gallente >> Minmatar > Amarr > Caldari Right... Especially caldari on the last place... Perhaps, check Terra Incognita and Razor killboards next time before you make such conclusion? ;) Vaga considered best HAC, Raven best for missions and best heavy dampener / damage dealer, Rapier/Huginn - considered best recons, curse in the past was considered best recon for solo work, crow - without any doubts is best interceptor, tempest - best long-range sniper, nighthawk - best command ship tank-wise, sleipnir best command ship for fast roaming gang, avatar - best titan. What is left for gallente, lets see.. Nyx - considered best mothership, neutron mega - considered best short range BS for damage dealing (while in fact maelstrom and abaddon can do almost as much dps while they do have stronger tank). So... what did I miss here?
Liang Nuren The Avalon Foundation Knights Of Syndicate	Posted - 2007.12.01 23:10:00 - [40] Originally by: Neena Valdi Right... Especially caldari on the last place... Perhaps, check Terra Incognita and Razor killboards next time before you make such conclusion? ;) Last time I fought against Terra Incognita or Burn Eden, they used a bunch of Sabres and nanoships with a Cruise-Damping Raven or two as support. Quote: Vaga considered best HAC Nah, best HAC is probably the Sacrilege or Cerberus... especially with the new agility boost. Quote: Raven best for missions and best heavy dampener / damage dealer Nobody's going to be damping anything post patch... not even the recons will be damping. Raven best for missions, best damage dealer close range, best damage dealer long range, excellent tank, etc, etc, etc. Quote: Rapier/Huginn - considered best recons Nah, they're good, but the Falcon will pwn them both once patch hits. The falcon and rook both got direct boosts with a low slot or a straight out bonus boost. Quote: curse in the past was considered best recon for solo work It probably still is tbh. Quote: crow - without any doubts is best interceptor Yep, Caldari again Quote: tempest - best long-range sniper No, that belongs to the Rokh, and post-patch, it hands down belongs to the Rokh. Quote: nighthawk - best command ship tank-wise IIRC the Vulture outtanks it.... (but that's Caldari again.. right?) Quote: sleipnir best command ship for fast roaming gang Sure... I'll buy it. ;-) Quote: sabre - best (by far) interdictor Not by far, tbh. Besides, with the dictor nerf in the patch, they all suck "equally" since they're just a flying coffin anyway. BTW, don't underestimate the Heretic. ;-) Quote: drake - best anti-support best for missions BC Best BC tank, best long range ganker, best med range ganker, best close range tanker, best at damn near everything but speed (where the Hurricane takes the lead). Quote: revelation - best dread For POS work, yes. Quote: cheetah - best covops Disagree, the Helios whomps it a new one with a superior slot layout and CPU. Quote: avatar - best titan Which... really matters why? Quote: Nyx - considered best mothership Sure... Quote: neutron mega - considered best short range BS for damage dealing Sure, it's a great close range ganker ... but it relies too much on the drones. Quote: So... what did I miss here? Maybe the point behind your giant list of ships (I'm seriously lost.. I don't know what you're getting at)? But for giggles: The Dominix - nerfed (a bit) The Myrmidon - nerfed (alot) The Eos - nerfed (to hell) The Ishkur - nerfed (WTF, nerfing an assault frig... awesome!) The Eris - Nerfed.. (WHAT THE HELL SERIOUSLY?!) The Vexor - No longer the best drone cruiser (if it ever was could be argued, but its a full head and shoulders blow the arbitrator now) Liang -- Retired forum *****. Plz tell me to STFU. Yarr?
Flurren	Posted - 2007.12.02 00:15:00 - [41] Whats your agenda here liang? It seems like you're pushing the boundaries of acceptable theories to make some sort of point, at least in my view.
Liang Nuren The Avalon Foundation Knights Of Syndicate	Posted - 2007.12.02 01:04:00 - [42] Originally by: Flurren Whats your agenda here liang? It seems like you're pushing the boundaries of acceptable theories to make some sort of point, at least in my view. TBH, I don't have one. I've been on the Caldari whine squad for quite some time ... and I feel that Caldari have finally been boosted appropriately. This particular set of boosts doesn't include any of my particular interests (more turrets on the Moa/Ferox/Vulture, a tad bit more PG on the Drake for an active tank with only one fitting mod, ROF bonus over Kin bonus [new!], slightly lowered mass for Caldari ships, etc). BUT, it does include some other boosts that I think are rather exceptional. 1. The torp boost is amazing. I just wish that my Minnie character was in a position to take advantage of it on the Typhoon (Really really pathetic missile skills). 2. Though I didn't get the lowered mass I was hoping for, I got a much much better inertia mod. It's almost as good (in situations). 3. Named shield boosters got a 12.5% increase in cap efficiency.. cap efficiency is one of the really hot topics around why its hard to PVP in a shield tanked ship (The patch notes are unclear, but I believe this boost only applies to named shield boosters). 4. Gallente got the **** nerfed out of them. Seriously. Where previously, people would point at (for example) the Myrmidon and the Drake, and say... "waa, the Myrm does XXX more damage and has XXX better tank, and doesn't have to sacrifice mids!", you can't really say that now. The Drake (for example) deals out roughly equivalent damage from a far greater range and puts out a better tank (though lacks mobility in this configuration). The Raven is now a really good ganker. Without top skills in your Megathron, you're damn sure not gonna be busting up even a moderately skilled Raven. That "mythical" 1400 DPS number is centered on being at 2km and having 5 heavies. Sure, those heavies won't pop! SWEAR! No, my only "agenda" in this thread (IIRC which thread it is...) is that the Caldari whine squad needs to STFU about flaming Gallente players which are like "WHAT THE HELL I JUST GOT MY HSIT NERFD SO BAD I CANT SEE STRAITE!" "welcome to balance lol noob" ... no, this really is kinda lame. You just got a huge set of boosts to your PVE and PVP engines - while they just got their entire PVE/PVP lineup ground into dust. And then you're only looking at half of the story when you say that XXX ship is "just as good" as XXX ship now - you're comparing apples to oranges and saying that a rotten orange is as good as a sweet apple. =/ It's possible that Gallente will be better than Amarr in post-Trinity... but I'm not really sure how long that's gonna last. I used to be a bit upset that my dictors got nerfed ... and that my Arazu/Lachesis got nerfed so hard that I'll never fly one again. But in the end, it doesn't matter. I'm training up Caldari cruiser 5 on my Gallente pilot, because Gallente ewar is not worth flying after the patch. You can't even lock down a single battleship and make it safe for your tacklers/damage dealers. I feel that I'm in a good position to evaluate this patch from a (fairly) neutral point of view - I fly Caldari, Minmatar, and Gallente. The Minnie got nerfed a bit, the Gallente got nerfed to hell, and the Caldari comes out smelling like a rose. Welcome to the (Second) Caldari age of Eve Online (and I'm lovin' it). Liang -- Retired forum *****. Plz tell me to STFU. Yarr?
Flurren	Posted - 2007.12.02 03:05:00 - [43] Edited by: Flurren on 02/12/2007 03:11:59 I sort of agree and disagree at the same time. On the one hand caldari did need some sort of pvp boost, whether the boost they got is too much remains to be seen. Theyre still one of the slower pvp races from what i can see but providing one has good tactics for keeping the enemy from warping out, missiles have the largest variation in their effective range giving a caldari player the best opportunity out of all the races to choose a range at a disadvantage to their opponent. Also if the kin damage bonus is changed to ROF on other ships aswell as the drake, caldari ships just gained a huge buff to damage selection and unpredictability in pvp. On the subject of shield boosters the change actually buffs minnie ships quite alot as we're for some reason billed by CCP as the active shield tanked race on any ship with a tanking bonus. As for the gallente whines, there are some logical posters i can sympathize with and some that are just generically whining because they lost their advantage in all things pvp. Im all for flaming these unconstructive ones as its clear to any sane person that certain gallente ships were ridiculously overpowered in certain respects. Gallente being drones users is represented by their ships having drone damage bonuses, they did not need huge drone bays on top of that. Afterall do you see minnie ships with vastly more turrets for their class than the equivalents of the other races? Therefore i think the bandwidth change is a very good thing as it gives the developers room to increase gallente drones sustainability without giving them a disproportionate amount of dps for the size of ship. I think the scripts were enough in nerfing the damps, having only one modifier active at a time was enough of a nerf without reducing the effect of both aswell. Possibly it could have been a good idea to introduce a cooldown to changing modes? Im unsure if this is in place already. CCP are guilty of messing up with the Eos unforgivably right at the start. It had a ridiculous amount of turrets for a field command and the drones it could field were a bit silly too as ive already said. The fact that info links are considered sub-par is really an issue that needs to be looked at separately but i admit it would have been nice to do that in the same patch as the nerf to at least give them something. I guess the point im making is that on their own each of the nerfs is pretty justified. Its just the fact that theyre all comming at once thats making some gallente players thoughts gravitate towards ending their lives :P. Like i said it remains to be seen whether the caldari changes will be too much. I havent looked myself, but doesnt fitting siege launchers on a raven make it very hard to fit the rest of the slots respectably at the same time?
Avery Fatwallet	Posted - 2007.12.02 03:11:00 - [44] Edited by: Avery Fatwallet on 02/12/2007 03:13:52 nvm
NCP S2	Posted - 2007.12.02 03:59:00 - [45] I can fit a full rack of Sieges on my Raven with no issues. As in I can fit the same layout as I used with Cruises. Gonna miss hitting rats out at 30k with cruises though, no big issue :) I've said it before in a lot of other Gallente Nerf posts, and I think you hit the nail on the head guy right above me, sorry for not quoting your name :) That there are OMG Gallente are teh sux! posts, and intelligent counters on the gallente side to the changes. We should use the term changes more than the term nerf. Nerf is just so much more unprofessional. The Myrmidon will STILL have a killer tank on it, and with that alone, will still be a very viable weapon in pvp. The fact that it got put in line with all of the other Battlecruisers, just shows that it was very overpowered before. For those pilots unable to adapt to such a small change (as far as drone fielding and bandwidth) you are a very poor player to begin with, and I would love to fight against you. The drone change as far as instant recharge was a bit ridiculous in my opinion, and yes, I did use it heavily on my Raven pilot in PVE situations. It isn't the worst thing to happen. If you need a clue, here's one... fit a shield recharger in a high slot, BAM problem solved. Now, however, single drone survivability isn't that much of an issue, as you can fit more waves of drones. As a previous poster pointed out, that's a HUGE plus to things. And I see a lot of Myrm pilots cry about their soon to be changing drone damage, but say absolutely nothing about their blaster damage. That means either you completely throw away a high dps source, or you want to close your eyes to the fact that you will still be putting out loads of dps. Granted, you might not have a ton of range, but, that's the price you pay for fitting the highest dps weapon class in the game. To be honest, the OP really irks me something fierce. This type of player that is unable to look beyond their point of view of how things should be, is the reason behind some discussions of changes that weren't really necessary. There is a counter to everything, and that's how it should be. There shouldn't be a situation where one thing is better than everything else. Counter to drones? Pilot skill or fof missiles. Either way, the drone boat gets an advantage here, as their tank gets some time to rep up. You might lose some dps, but spit out a new drone, your bigger bays give you that option now. Counter to missiles? Tank or speed. Or defenders, but who uses those anyways? Counter to blasters? Autocannons, Rails, Arty, Missiles Counter to Autocannons? Rails, Arty, Missiles, etc Counter to Arty/Rails? Close range/speed. see where I'm going with this? USE YOUR HEAD, or convo me in game to set up some fights, so I can take whatever survived from your wreck. Cookie cutter fits really only work 100% of the time in PVE. Will I lose in my Cane to a competant Myrm Pilot after the patch? Definately. Always? No. People who say otherwise need to get off of EFT or Quickfit, put down the paper and pencil, and pick up the mouse and play some. Learn to adapt, or die. You had a good run as undisputed kings and queens of pvp. If you can't deal with the fact that you are now disputed? reroll amarr and have fun with it. You might learn something.
Medea Aux	Posted - 2007.12.02 04:15:00 - [46] I don't mind this change much at all. Myrm's bread and butter (from a pve context) is T2 Mediums. In pvp heavies are quite a bit slow for most engagements. So losing the ability to field 5 heavies is not much of a nerf for most skilled myrm pilots. Shield recharge changes obviously take away an extraordinary edge from drone boats, but it never really should have been there to begin with. It was merely a skillful use of gameplay mechanics to achieve unlimited hp for drones, effectively making them moving turrets. Drones were meant to be vulnerable. Now they finally are. The changes make drone waves a much more viable and necessary tactic. Not much to complain about aside from the very sad nerfs to Eos. :(
Lord DerekSegan	Posted - 2007.12.02 04:33:00 - [47] Myrm pilots are pathetic whiners. Boo Hoo, they took away my pwn-boat. Guess what -- it was ruining the game for the other 80% of the players. Hello
Polly Prissypantz	Posted - 2007.12.02 06:20:00 - [48] Originally by: Lord DerekSegan Myrm pilots are pathetic whiners. Boo Hoo, they took away my pwn-boat. Guess what -- it was ruining the game for the other 80% of the players. Actually I think that honour goes to nano pilots. At least you can lock down and pop a Myrmidon given sufficient firepower.
ChimeraRouge Caldari Eve University Ivy League	Posted - 2007.12.02 06:53:00 - [49] Originally by: Polly Prissypantz Originally by: Lord DerekSegan Myrm pilots are pathetic whiners. Boo Hoo, they took away my pwn-boat. Guess what -- it was ruining the game for the other 80% of the players. Actually I think that honour goes to nano pilots. At least you can lock down and pop a Myrmidon given sufficient firepower. i don't understand how the overpowerd nanoishtar has't been nerf yet. its cruiser with high resist, BB sized weapon, and inty speed. its not balanced at all.
Liang Nuren The Avalon Foundation Knights Of Syndicate	Posted - 2007.12.02 07:00:00 - [50] Originally by: ChimeraRouge i don't understand how the overpowerd nanoishtar has't been nerf yet. its cruiser with high resist, BB sized weapon, and inty speed. its not balanced at all. Sure. It's a good ship, but its not Godly, and Ogre II's are not BS sized weapons. Of course I'm sure you want it to field mediums and lights with its Dominix sized drone bay. Oh, and wtf is with going over 500 m/sec? Its a cruiser FFS, I should be able to catch it in my mission battleship. Oh, and a web at 250km plz, because this ** is just stupid... can't catch a frigate or cruiser in my battleship wtf ever i quit this stupid game omg! Liang -- Retired forum ***. Plz tell me to STFU. Yarr?
sheis	Posted - 2007.12.02 09:42:00 - [51] Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: ChimeraRouge i don't understand how the overpowerd nanoishtar has't been nerf yet. its cruiser with high resist, BB sized weapon, and inty speed. its not balanced at all. Sure. It's a good ship, but its not Godly, and Ogre II's are not BS sized weapons. Of course I'm sure you want it to field mediums and lights with its Dominix sized drone bay. Oh, and wtf is with going over 500 m/sec? Its a cruiser FFS, I should be able to catch it in my mission battleship. Oh, and a web at 250km plz, because this **** is just stupid... can't catch a frigate or cruiser in my battleship wtf ever i quit this stupid game omg! Liang Are you in fact this stupid or do you just roleplay a moron?
Azuma Hijikata	Posted - 2007.12.02 10:06:00 - [52] Originally by: sheis Are you in fact this stupid or do you just roleplay a moron? He's parodying the typical whine post about nanoships, which I don't necessarily understand from either side (having never the displeasure of fighting one). However, nanoships aren't the point here. Two quick things: Shield recharge "nerf" isn't the end of the world, and the new UI makes it easier to keep an eye on all five of your active drones so you can recall them before things get really ugly. It's annoying to have to wait after you scoop to redeploy, but them's the breaks, kid. Also, the Vexor is still an awesome droneboat on sisi, and I'm not really sure what Liang is trying to say with that comment. 75Mbps of bandwidth is what it currently is on TQ, and it gets an extra 25m3 of bay space to boot (total of 100m3; 1x med/2x light)--fittings and bonuses haven't changed. The Arbitrator can fling more waves of drones, sure, but the Vexor can still fall back on 3x heavies if it really cared to, where Arby can't (75Mbps v 50Mbps).
Diomidis Amarr	Posted - 2007.12.02 11:07:00 - [53] The Myrm is still a great ship. Great slot layout Above slot layout -> tanks with lows = more ewar = more PvP potential. Have bonused, selective dmg type, un-affected by ewar main weapon Can still pack some extra DPS as it has MORE THAN A FEW high slots *Can be painlessly fitted with Projectiles to do decent dmg with ZERO CAP usage... And yes, it's not better than no-more than just 2 drone boats: the Ishtar and the Dominix. Drone "nerfs" affect other drone ships way more than the Myrmidon - especially because few other ships have that slot and fitting flexibility like it - I would say that the "insta-shield-recharge" nerf actually affects a nano-Ishtar fielding Heavy drones way more than a Myrm...forget about other Drone ships like Amarrian Recons that got BOTH their bonuced weapons nerfed... Still, each and everyone of this ships can be a winner - you just have to pick your fights now, as the Myrmidon is no long the best of the pack - it's not worst than a Drake IMHO, as it can tackle and catch up to his prey ALONE. I believe that most whiners mis configured that "usefull in PvP" means - I can hunt and kill a Ratting Raven solo"... As soon as I get some decent drone skills to support my Curse / Pilgrim, I want to try out the Myrm = inevitable post nerf, and yes, I can fly a Drake (pfff).
Neena Valdi Art of War	Posted - 2007.12.04 13:43:00 - [54] Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: Neena Valdi Right... Especially caldari on the last place... Perhaps, check Terra Incognita and Razor killboards next time before you make such conclusion? ;) Last time I fought against Terra Incognita or Burn Eden, they used a bunch of Sabres and nanoships with a Cruise-Damping Raven or two as support. Exactly. So gallente is overpowered and >> caldari as you claimed? ;) Originally by: Liang Nuren Quote: Vaga considered best HAC Nah, best HAC is probably the Sacrilege or Cerberus... especially with the new agility boost. Hello? Are you serious? Originally by: Liang Nuren Quote: Raven best for missions and best heavy dampener / damage dealer Nobody's going to be damping anything post patch... not even the recons will be damping. But we are not talking about 'post-patch'. Also thats pretty arguable if no one really will be using damps post patch. With ecm drones / ecm recons they most likely still will be very powerful when your team is working as one unit. Wait and see... Im sure BE will prove my point post-patch. Originally by: Liang Nuren Raven best for missions, best damage dealer close range, best damage dealer long range, excellent tank, etc, etc, etc. So once again claim about 'gallente >> caldari' is clearly not true. Originally by: Liang Nuren Quote: Rapier/Huginn - considered best recons Nah, they're good, but the Falcon will pwn them both once patch hits. Again I was talking about pre-patch and your claims about gallente >> all other races. And duh.. falcon will not 'pwn' no, but falcon and huginn will be more useful than arazu in many cases post-patch. Originally by: Liang Nuren Quote: curse in the past was considered best recon for solo work It probably still is tbh. Dampener huginn is. Until Trinity ofc. But again - not gallente. Originally by: Liang Nuren Quote: tempest - best long-range sniper No, that belongs to the Rokh, and post-patch, it hands down belongs to the Rokh. Hello? Are you serious? Rokh alpha strike and dps both suck. Range? Does range matter? Sniper fleet usually is warping on a same spot so you can't dictate distance. I could possibly agree if you mentioned apoc - as it doesn't need weapon reload which can be crucial in a lagfests, but rokh? Originally by: Liang Nuren Quote: nighthawk - best command ship tank-wise IIRC the Vulture outtanks it.... (but that's Caldari again.. right?) Are you asking me? It was you who claimed gallente >> all. Originally by: Liang Nuren Quote: sabre - best (by far) interdictor Not by far, tbh. Besides, with the dictor nerf in the patch, they all suck "equally" since they're just a flying coffin anyway. Sabre will remain best in trinity. Even with base speed nerf it will still be able to outrun other dictors. And again it's not eris - not gallente. Originally by: Liang Nuren
Neena Valdi Art of War	Posted - 2007.12.04 14:17:00 - [55] Originally by: NCP S2 I can fit a full rack of Sieges on my Raven with no issues. As in I can fit the same layout as I used with Cruises. Gonna miss hitting rats out at 30k with cruises though, no big issue :) I've said it before in a lot of other Gallente Nerf posts, and I think you hit the nail on the head guy right above me, sorry for not quoting your name :) That there are OMG Gallente are teh sux! posts, and intelligent counters on the gallente side to the changes. We should use the term changes more than the term nerf. Nerf is just so much more unprofessional. What is wrong with using unprofessional terms by not professionals? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nerf_%28computer_gaming%29 As you can see using term nerf is absolutely correct in current situation. Originally by: NCP S2 The Myrmidon will STILL have a killer tank on it, and with that alone, will still be a very viable weapon in pvp. Active tanks have one serious weakness - rely on cap. Myrm dual-MAR tank is HEAVY on cap and can only run as long as you have cap boosters 800. First curse or battleship with neutralizers and you are dead. Its first. Second - drones. You will have to use hammerheads post-patch. Price for 1 HH II is well above 1mil. Drone shield recharging by scooping them will not work anymore, so your drones will be dying like a flies. With drones your dps will be dying and you will endup with at best rack of electron/ion heavy blasters that are only usable on like < 5km range. Originally by: NCP S2 The fact that it got put in line with all of the other Battlecruisers, UNDER the line. Get the clue please. Originally by: NCP S2 just shows that it was very overpowered before. Clue? Originally by: NCP S2 For those pilots unable to adapt to such a small change (as far as drone fielding and bandwidth) you are a very poor player to begin with, and I would love to fight against you. It's not about adapting. It's about ignorance of CCP on this matter. Originally by: NCP S2 The drone change as far as instant recharge was a bit ridiculous in my opinion, and yes, I did use it heavily on my Raven pilot in PVE situations. It isn't the worst thing to happen. If you need a clue, here's one... fit a shield recharger in a high slot, BAM problem solved. Originally by: NCP S2 Now, however, single drone survivability isn't that much of an issue, as you can fit more waves of drones. As a previous poster pointed out, that's a HUGE plus to things. Each wave of HH's will cost you 5mil+. Maybe even more post-patch considering possibly even higher demand on them. Originally by: NCP S2 And I see a lot of Myrm pilots cry about their soon to be changing drone damage, but say absolutely nothing about their blaster damage. Myrmidon doesn't have any bonuses to hybrid weapons and only have 6 high slots. Blasters are also very limited by range and capacitor. One medium cap booster will not sustain running both 2 mars and whole rack of blasters. Post patch Hurricane easily outdps myrmidon in most situations as it can start hitting target much earlier and is not relying on drone dps which means it can use ecm drones and be even MORE effective in gangs. Hurricane tank is ofc inferior, but still is very decent there. Same goes for drake which can be ewar (ecm, damps, nos/neut) immune on top of that by using FOF missiles and passive shield tank. Originally by: NCP S2 That means either you completely throw away a high dps source, or you want to close your eyes to the fact that you will still be putting out loads of dps. Granted, you might not have a ton of range, but, that's the price you pay for fitting the highest dps weapon class in the game. 1. Myrmidon depends on range to deal dps with blasters - Myrmidon can't dictate range as most slow and least agile BC. 2. Myrmidon depends on capacitor to tank - Myrmidon can't tank with neutralizers on it or once it's out of cap booster charges. Do you still fail to see this?
Flurren	Posted - 2007.12.04 14:25:00 - [56] Neena after skimming your posts i really have no desire to read them in detail. The facts alone that you're complaining about the costs of t2 drones and think the myrm is supposed to be blaster boat speak volumes of your intelligence to me. Have you tried reading the description of the myrm? Its supposed to be a long range defensive boat. The logical step up from the vexor but with even better bonuses because it actually gets a great active armor tank (honestly i dont know why there arent more gallente boats with armor tanking and drone damage bonuses). The point of having multiple waves of drones is not so you can spit out new ones when the first ones die, its so you can recall the first wave before it dies and then spit out the second while the first regens in the bay. This is the strength of the new gallente drone philosophy. The logicality of the nerfs has been explained time and time again and you're clearly one of these people of the mind that as long as the ships you fly are better than everyone elses for pvp then everything is ok. Its sad really and i sort of pity you.
Neena Valdi Art of War	Posted - 2007.12.04 14:38:00 - [57] Originally by: Flurren Neena after skimming your posts i really have no desire to read them in detail. The facts alone that you're complaining about the costs of t2 drones and think the myrm is supposed to be blaster boat speak volumes of your intelligence to me. Have you tried reading the description of the myrm? Its supposed to be a long range defensive boat. The logical step up from the vexor but with even better bonuses because it actually gets a great active armor tank (honestly i dont know why there arent more gallente boats with armor tanking and drone damage bonuses). Sorry dude, but I never read ship descriptions. I prefer the practical point of view rather than all these 'theorycraft'. 'Long range defensive boat' I dont know what game you are playing, but definitely not EVE Online. Originally by: Flurren The point of having multiple waves of drones is not so you can spit out new ones when the first ones die, its so you can recall the first wave before it dies and then spit out the second while the first regens in the bay. This is the strength of the new gallente drone philosophy. Another great portion of so-called 'theorycraft'. You are missing one important thing here: time. DPS directly depends on time. Drones will NOT recharge instantly. Scooping drones is NOT instant even if you are on top of them... Hammerheads will be instantly popped by first BS/Carrier with smartbombs. Originally by: Flurren The logicality of the nerfs has been explained time and time again and you're clearly one of these people of the mind that as long as the ships you fly are better than everyone elses for pvp then everything is ok. Its sad really and i sort of pity you. Sigh... no its me who is pity for you as you one of those who are never to find in space, but who are always ready to come and play theorycraft on forums. Myrmidon NEVER was overpowered. I tell you it from the practical point of view of someone who has REAL experience of flying drone boats and for the instance - myrmidon/eos.
Flurren	Posted - 2007.12.04 15:34:00 - [58] Edited by: Flurren on 04/12/2007 15:39:50 Lol, the thing is its pretty clear your version of overpowered is different from everyone elses. You're the type of person that tuts in annoyance when a 1vs1 fight against a ship of equivalent worth ends with you winning with your shield down to 25%. I just find your comment that a ship with a tanking bonus isnt a defensive ship laughable in the extreme. The myrmidon is being changed to what it was supposed to be from the very start which is "a ship to prevent the navys young pilots from going out in a blaze of glory" or something along those lines. It was never meant to be a gank boat which is obscenely clear from its bonuses. It was never meant to be able to field 5 drones 2 sizes up from what most other BCs use. It was CCPs mistake and now theyre fixing it and you're whining. I admit i may have been wrong about long range, however it is possible to be short ranged and still defensively orientated. And to add to comedy you still havent understood the drone changes. The myrmidon has two waves now so the first doesnt need to recharge instantly. It recharges slightly while the second wave is dpsing instead and by the time the second wave is looking beaten up the fight will most likely be close to finishing anyway. I know people like you are averse to any sort of mathematics but lets look at the working for a second (im assuming 3 heavies because this does more dps than 5 mediums even though it may have some trouble catching very light ships. However most BC weapons have varying trouble hitting small light ships, so this is nothing unusual. Im also assuming all skills at V for consistency):- Dps of a kinetic smartbomb II at skill V:- 140/7.5 = 18.67 Effective shield hp of an ogre II vs kinetic damage:- 2691.251.5/0.6 = 840.63 Effective armor of an ogre II vs kinetic damage:- 5761.251.5/0.75 = 1440 Total time required to destroy a hammerhead II with a med smartbomb assuming all skills at V:- (840.63 + 1440)/18.67 = 122 seconds. With 2 waves this gives you easily 4 minutes of drone dps with a bit more added by the fact that the drones at the start shields have regened half way while in the bay and is at the expense of a significant drain on the targets capacitor weakening their tank. Drones could possibly do with a small tweak, shifting more of their hp to their shield and decreasing their shield recharge time by about half but still the viability of drones is far from unfair as it is. Add to this that fitting smartbombs is by no means the general standard and even less so is training them to this level and it gets even fairer (this may start to change after trinity is implemented however). Yes the myrmidon suffered a nerf to its dps when it lost drones but if you still wish to fly it as a blaster boat you're perfectly entitled to do so and the tactics for it remain unchanged (though the effectiveness is reduced). My personal opinion is that it works better with projectile weapons now so all the cap can be diverted to its bonused combat type which is active armor tanking (although i appreciate this is somewhat off the beaten track of gallente training). EDIT: I also note you failed to answer my point that the hurricane is designed as a gank ship with 2 dps bonuses whereas the myrm will naturally have a stronger tank. Why exactly do you believe its tank and dps should be superior to all other BC? (you cant really count the passive drake for pvp as it has no gear to tackle with and pitiful dps and speed).
madaluap Gallente Mercenary Forces Exquisite Malevolence	Posted - 2007.12.04 15:47:00 - [59] Originally by: sheis Originally by: Liang Nuren Originally by: ChimeraRouge i don't understand how the overpowerd nanoishtar has't been nerf yet. its cruiser with high resist, BB sized weapon, and inty speed. its not balanced at all. Sure. It's a good ship, but its not Godly, and Ogre II's are not BS sized weapons. Of course I'm sure you want it to field mediums and lights with its Dominix sized drone bay. Oh, and wtf is with going over 500 m/sec? Its a cruiser FFS, I should be able to catch it in my mission battleship. Oh, and a web at 250km plz, because this ** is just stupid... can't catch a frigate or cruiser in my battleship wtf ever i quit this stupid game omg! Liang Are you in fact this stupid or do you just roleplay a moron? Maybe its time for you to STFU, clueless alt. Quote: Its a cruiser with high resist Like any other T2 ship, so STFU, you have no point. Quote: BB sized weapon Heavy drones are not bs sized weapons Quote:** inty speed SHOW ME I have 1.5 bil to spend, show me that inty speed setup and than tell me how im supposed to keep 1 wave of heavy drones alive, without damps, keeping my inty speed and still kill the target. Clueless... _________________________________________________ Breetime A killmail!11!1 omgrawr: BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOYAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
Wu Jiun	Posted - 2007.12.04 15:56:00 - [60] Originally by: Neena Valdi First curse or battleship with neutralizers and you are dead. Originally by: Neena Valdi Hammerheads will be instantly popped by first BS/Carrier with smartbombs. Waaaaaaah! My Battlecruiser can't kill carriers and bs solo. Waaaaahh! Mummy please help me.
Gypsio III Darkness Inc.	Posted - 2007.12.04 16:07:00 - [61] Originally by: Flurren P.S. I really have no idea how you're getting even half of 460 dps out of your drake, which you claim in other posts is passively shield tanked. Unless you've gimped your tank completely by switching out all but one low for damage mods i just cant see it happening. 460 DPS on a Drake is rather low. 7x HAM II with Terror Rage (fine against BCs and larger) Named MWD, webbie, scram LSE II, 2x Inv II DC II, 3x BCS II (drop a BCS for a PDS if you need the PG) 5x T2 hobgoblins, 3x shield hardener rigs, or 3x extender rigs Needs PG implant, use the PDS otherwise. Add missile ROF and HAM damage implants if you feel like it. Good gank, tackle and a solid enough combination of HP/regen tank. Nobody primaries a Drake, anyway. I'll leave you to run this through EFT. My Drake does over 600 DPS. It's fun.
Diomidis Amarr Mythos Corp	Posted - 2007.12.04 16:57:00 - [62] Edited by: Diomidis on 04/12/2007 17:05:09 Besides Flurren simply excellent post, I'll have to make a notice: @Neena Valdi> Stop being so single minded, and read your ship's description for once... Oh, ok, skip the literature and go down to the bonuses - DOES IT IMPLY IN ANYWAYS THAT YOU SHOULD USE HAMMERHEADS? Does it say 10% bonus to drone's THERMAL dmg - cause I thought Drones boats could actually choose their dmg type. Should you had the bay to field just 1 wave of meds or heavies, the answer would be easy -> go for higher DPS unless you know what you are fighting against. But since you tend to value Iskies more than raw DPS, go for Valkyries or Vespas...problem solved for you... P.S. - Just make a quick calc of how much iskies worth of faction missiles a 47000+ Effective HP Myrmidon needs to go down, add the crazy repping potential of this ship with proper skills without even proper rigs, and then add up...yes, T2 Hammerheads are expensive, but everyone wanting "da best" pays a premium - it's not just the "poor Myrmidon pilots" - yes those fellas that cannot solo a Carrier...you poor things...
Juha85 Beasts of Burden YouWhat	Posted - 2007.12.04 17:21:00 - [63] Edited by: Juha85 on 04/12/2007 17:21:45 Originally by: Liang Nuren Nah, Drake and Hurricane are both better BC's than the Myrmidon now (even for solo work). Harbinger is iffy... I think the new Myrm will be roughly equivalent. Liang Lol, harbinger is quite possibly the best BC even now... or atleast very close to hurricane and myrmidon. You just have to know how to fly it. --------------------------------------- Please resize image to a maximum of 400 x 120, not exceeding 24000 bytes, ty. If you would like further details please mail [email protected] - Cortes
Neena Valdi Art of War	Posted - 2007.12.04 17:33:00 - [64] Edited by: Neena Valdi on 04/12/2007 17:34:47 Originally by: Flurren Edited by: Flurren on 04/12/2007 15:39:50 Lol, the thing is its pretty clear your version of overpowered is different from everyone elses. You're the type of person that tuts in annoyance when a 1vs1 fight against a ship of equivalent worth ends with you winning with your shield down to 25%. I repeat: stop playing theorycraft and start playing EVE Online. There is NO 1 vs 1 in EVE. Never was. Never will be. There is many more things that are important and sometimes even more important than simple raw point-blank dps, or tank. Originally by: Flurren I just find your comment that a ship with a tanking bonus isnt a defensive ship laughable in the extreme. The myrmidon is being changed to what it was supposed to be from the very start which is "a ship to prevent the navys young pilots from going out in a blaze of glory" or something along those lines. It was never meant to be a gank boat which is obscenely clear from its bonuses. It was never meant to be able to field 5 drones 2 sizes up from what most other BCs use. It was CCPs mistake and now theyre fixing it and you're whining. I admit i may have been wrong about long range, however it is possible to be short ranged and still defensively orientated. Originally by: Flurren And to add to comedy you still havent understood the drone changes. The myrmidon has two waves now so the first doesnt need to recharge instantly. Hello? It is possible to have 10 medium drones pre-Trinity too and post-Trinity only ONE set of drones consists of 2 heavies, 2 mediums, 1 small or only 3 heavies. Originally by: Flurren It recharges slightly while the second wave is dpsing instead and by the time the second wave is looking beaten up the fight will most likely be close to finishing anyway. I know people like you are averse to any sort of mathematics but lets look at the working for a second (im assuming 3 heavies because this does more dps than 5 mediums even though it may have some trouble catching very light ships. However most BC weapons have varying trouble hitting small light ships, so this is nothing unusual. Im also assuming all skills at V for consistency):- Total time required to destroy a hammerhead II with a med smartbomb assuming all skills at V:- (840.63 + 1440)/18.67 = 122 seconds. One-two volleys from few large smartbombs is enough to destroy HH's. One volley of heavy missiles from drake is enough. Huginn needs like 2-5 seconds to kill HH. Etc-etc. Welcome to EVE Online. Show me any other ship primary weapons of which is countered that effectively and of top of that show me any other ship that can lose like 5-7 mils in one fight evening if you win the fight. Originally by: Flurren EDIT: I also note you failed to answer my point that the hurricane is designed as a gank ship with 2 dps bonuses whereas the myrm will naturally have a stronger tank. Why exactly do you believe its tank and dps should be superior to all other BC? (you cant really count the passive drake for pvp as it has no gear to tackle with and pitiful dps and speed).[/quote Sigh... Stop playing theorycraft.
Liang Nuren The Avalon Foundation	Posted - 2007.12.04 17:36:00 - [65] Originally by: Neena Valdi I repeat: stop playing theorycraft and start playing EVE Online. There is NO 1 vs 1 in EVE. Never was. Never will be. There is many more things that are important and sometimes even more important than simple raw point-blank dps, or tank. I got a 1v1 a couple nights ago. They respected it. Liang -- Retired forum *****. Plz tell me to STFU. Yarr?
Neena Valdi Art of War	Posted - 2007.12.04 17:43:00 - [66] So you finally posted with your main, mr. Flurren? Good boy! Originally by: Diomidis Edited by: Diomidis on 04/12/2007 17:08:39 Edited by: Diomidis on 04/12/2007 17:05:09 Besides Flurren simply excellent post, I'll have to make a notice: @Neena Valdi> Stop being so single minded, and read your ship's description for once... Oh, ok, skip the literature and go down to the bonuses - DOES IT IMPLY IN ANYWAYS THAT YOU SHOULD USE HAMMERHEADS? No, but all arguments about 'myrm still is high dps' and 'myrm can launch two volleys' were about using hammerheads II. Replace hh's with valks and you wont even reach hurricanes dps. Originally by: Diomidis P.S. - Just make a quick calc of how much iskies worth of faction missiles a 47000+ Effective HP Myrmidon needs to go down, add the crazy repping potential of this ship with proper skills without even proper rigs, and then add up...yes, T2 Hammerheads are expensive, but everyone wanting "da best" pays a premium - it's not just the "poor Myrmidon pilots" - yes those fellas that cannot solo a Carrier...you poor things... Sigh... Originally by: Diomidis And the diff is that T2 ammo DO get spend to get the job done, T2 freq Crystals DO get worn to get the job done, a Drone MIGHT get destroyed will getting the job done. Oh, and launchers and guns also need to be reloaded...so yes, you might catch up for the dmg you receive before your drones get to your target... 5mil of faction ammo is enough for a month of everyday pvp.
Neena Valdi Art of War	Posted - 2007.12.04 17:45:00 - [67] Originally by: Gypsio III Originally by: Flurren P.S. I really have no idea how you're getting even half of 460 dps out of your drake, which you claim in other posts is passively shield tanked. Unless you've gimped your tank completely by switching out all but one low for damage mods i just cant see it happening. 460 DPS on a Drake is rather low. 7x HAM II with Terror Rage (fine against BCs and larger) Named MWD, webbie, scram LSE II, 2x Inv II DC II, 3x BCS II (drop a BCS for a PDS if you need the PG) 5x T2 hobgoblins, 3x shield hardener rigs, or 3x extender rigs Needs PG implant, use the PDS otherwise. Add missile ROF and HAM damage implants if you feel like it. Good gank, tackle and a solid enough combination of HP/regen tank. Nobody primaries a Drake, anyway. I'll leave you to run this through EFT. My Drake does over 600 DPS. It's fun. Read this Mr. Flurren.
Lord DerekSegan	Posted - 2007.12.04 17:59:00 - [68] "One-two volleys from few large smartbombs is enough to destroy HH's. One volley of heavy missiles from drake is enough. Huginn needs like 2-5 seconds to kill HH. Etc-etc. Welcome to EVE Online." Um... yea, except NO ONE fits smartbombs, especially when they are ratting. Thus, solo Myrm pwnboats win all the time when they solo-gank. Hello
Gypsio III Darkness Inc.	Posted - 2007.12.04 18:00:00 - [69] Quote: One-two volleys from few large smartbombs is enough to destroy HH's. One volley of heavy missiles from drake is enough. Huginn needs like 2-5 seconds to kill HH. Etc-etc. Welcome to EVE Online. This is rubbish though, it's more EFT Online. Anyone fitting "a few large smartbombs" deserves to kills drones in short order. They're gimping the rest of their fit to put those smarties on, and many ships simply can't handle the PG. Also, smarties are hardly viable in highsec wars - or outside stations at at gates, where most small-scale combat occurs. More to the point, when people are shooting your drones they're not shooting you. You should be grateful that these people aren't hammering on your own tank. Shooting drones is only sensible in 1v1s and very small gangs, and frequently not even then - especially if the droneboat pilot can easily replace those drones.
Diomidis Amarr Mythos Corp	Posted - 2007.12.04 18:03:00 - [70] Originally by: Neena Valdi No, but all arguments about 'myrm still is high dps' and 'myrm can launch two volleys' were about using hammerheads II. Replace hh's with valks and you wont even reach hurricanes dps. Well we wouldn't want to go THAT low, would we...the difference is that the Hurricane doesn't work in optimal most of the time or its very weak against tracking disruptors / speedy targets. And unlike what ppl think, EM and Explosive are actually great dmg types to use, rarely more tanked than thermal anyways, so there goes your raw DPS advantage. Originally by: Neena Valdi 5mil of faction ammo is enough for a month of everyday pvp. You either roll your smillie eyes too much and didn't do the math, or you have no clue that a Myrmidon will need more than 1M worth of Faction HM or HAMs to go down...surely its a nice trade-off but still you are over-exaggerating on the "unfairness" between ammo and drone actual costs.
Oam Mkoll Caldari HUSARIA Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2007.12.04 18:06:00 - [71] The President of the US will die to one Norwegian soldier 1on1. That does not mean US military needs a buff and Norway is overpowered. This game is not EFT, this game is Eve Online. You never fly alone. Hostiles, pirates and neutrals fly in the systems around you. --- I am violence boat
King Hopy Beasts of Burden YouWhat	Posted - 2007.12.04 18:20:00 - [72] Originally by: Neena Valdi 5mil of faction ammo is enough for a month of everyday pvp. With 5mil I can get around 2k of republic fleet emp M. This 2k of emp M is consumed in killing 2-4 npc'ing ravens drakes. So no, 5mil wont get me a months supply of emp m.
Neena Valdi Art of War	Posted - 2007.12.04 20:32:00 - [73] Originally by: Diomidis Originally by: Neena Valdi 5mil of faction ammo is enough for a month of everyday pvp. You either roll your smillie eyes too much and didn't do the math, or you have no clue that a Myrmidon will need more than 1M worth of Faction HM or HAMs to go down...surely its a nice trade-off but still you are over-exaggerating on the "unfairness" between ammo and drone actual costs. No, it wont cost 1m+. EVE is not about fighting 1 on 1. Stop this theory **** please and go play the actual game.
Neena Valdi Art of War	Posted - 2007.12.04 20:35:00 - [74] Originally by: King Hopy Originally by: Neena Valdi 5mil of faction ammo is enough for a month of everyday pvp. With 5mil I can get around 2k of republic fleet emp M. This 2k of emp M is consumed in killing 2-4 npc'ing ravens drakes. So no, 5mil wont get me a months supply of emp m. 1. 5mil = 4.5k of republic fleet emp M 2. Sigh...
Lyria Skydancer Amarr Uninvited Guests Cult of War	Posted - 2007.12.04 20:39:00 - [75] Originally by: Roy Batty68 Yes, that's the design. And its only for Gallente ships. CCP doesn't like you Gallente anymore. It's part of the Amarr "oomph" project. Originally by: Presidente Gallente You have no recharged shield backup anymore and this is another additional nerf to the Myrm. See, this would be you focusing on just your favorite ship. ALL drone users get nerfed by this, not just the Myrm. And shockingly, not just Gallente use drones. Yes gief more oomph!
Flurren	Posted - 2007.12.04 22:20:00 - [76] Its unsurprising you ignored the maths part of my post neena. The reason i say this is because unless you use calculations everything else in the game is an opinion. You can discuss the logical course of battles which is slightly more objective than simple opinions but still very opinion influenced but you fail to do even this. The content of your posts can basically be summarised thusly:- a) "noes! you're stupid go play eve, you dont play eve! i play eve all day long and i know more about you than eve!" To which i say, unless you play eve by mashing your face into the keyboard constantly and repetitively start discussing real qualities of the ships and their modes of combat and why you consider the myrmidon not to work anymore compared to other battlecruisers. I dunno you could even include a few numbers. After all eve is programmed in maths, you ignore it at your own peril. I wouldnt never say you can learn eve on theory craft alone. You need to know the UI and you need to be aware of your environment, what ships are close by, how they perform in combat and their strategies and what your own chances are. However, do you really think when ccp balances ships they simply argue about who did more pvp over the course of the last month? No, they discuss what the tactics are that each ship uses, how this fares against other ships, what that ships role is and then maybe do a bit of maths in a simulated battle before testing all this on a server. Sometimes they dont get it right but nobodies infallible. You play their game so you must agree with them most of the time or simply be very mashochistic. To summarize, "you play less than me" is not a valid rebuttal. and b) "omgz my ship with one damage bonus cant outdps this other ship with 2 damage bonuses, wtf man!? im gallente i shouldnt have to put up with this crap" Just because you're gallente doesnt automatically mean your ship does the most damage in its class. If you can come up with a valid reason that you should have both better dps and tank than a hurricane then by all means tell me it. To everyone else:- Id really like to hear your views on what i said about drones. Would shifting alot of drones hp to their shield and halving their shield recharge time make up for this drastic drone user nerf thats comming with trinity? That way drone boats with large bays can alternate waves if they are skillful and not lose too much dps (or money, thank you neena).
Flurren	Posted - 2007.12.04 22:35:00 - [77] Edited by: Flurren on 04/12/2007 22:35:34 Originally by: Gypsio III Originally by: Flurren P.S. I really have no idea how you're getting even half of 460 dps out of your drake, which you claim in other posts is passively shield tanked. Unless you've gimped your tank completely by switching out all but one low for damage mods i just cant see it happening. 460 DPS on a Drake is rather low. 7x HAM II with Terror Rage (fine against BCs and larger) Named MWD, webbie, scram LSE II, 2x Inv II DC II, 3x BCS II (drop a BCS for a PDS if you need the PG) 5x T2 hobgoblins, 3x shield hardener rigs, or 3x extender rigs Needs PG implant, use the PDS otherwise. Add missile ROF and HAM damage implants if you feel like it. Good gank, tackle and a solid enough combination of HP/regen tank. Nobody primaries a Drake, anyway. I'll leave you to run this through EFT. My Drake does over 600 DPS. It's fun. Thats really the maximum dps you're ever going to get out of a drake isnt it :P. I put it in with all skills maxed and it comes to 610 so you'd have to be one old char and pretty much have the worst tanked drake in the world :P. Also couldnt run the MWD for more than a minute before you have to switch it off permanently as the thing is only just cap stable without it running. However i can see the attraction to having a drake with a hp buffer and ridiculous dps charging round a fleet battle owning things unexpectedly :P. Wish i had the skills to do it myself :).
Gorefacer Caldari Resurrection	Posted - 2007.12.05 00:07:00 - [78] Originally by: Frug They have said that drone shields won't recharge anymore in one of the dev posts. I don't fly gall ships and I think that change seems a bit unnecessary. I don't fly gall ships either, but I was always under the impression that this change alone would be more than sufficient to bring Myrm in line. "You can't reason someone out of a belief they haven't reasoned themselves into" - Prometheus
Gypsio III Darkness Inc.	Posted - 2007.12.05 00:54:00 - [79] Edited by: Gypsio III on 05/12/2007 00:54:29 Originally by: Flurren Thats really the maximum dps you're ever going to get out of a drake isnt it :P. I put it in with all skills maxed and it comes to 610 so you'd have to be one old char and pretty much have the worst tanked drake in the world :P. Also couldnt run the MWD for more than a minute before you have to switch it off permanently as the thing is only just cap stable without it running. However i can see the attraction to having a drake with a hp buffer and ridiculous dps charging round a fleet battle owning things unexpectedly :P. Wish i had the skills to do it myself :). I do lowsec piracy, so mobility and nanogangs are less of an issue than for what I hear 0.0 is like. Typically, most combat occurs at stations and gates (hence Myrm uberness), and MWD is needed only to get into range or to leg it back to a gate - cap stability isn't required. Which is just as well, seeing as how the Rage ammo screws cap recharge... The missile ROF and HAM damage implants help a bit - it maxes out at 674 DPS with 3% implants (641 DPS without implants, not sure how you got 610, maybe drone or ammo type?) . The tank isn't that bad - but it certainly doesn't compare to the "classic" PVE Drake, and you won't be permatanking sentries, which is a nice feature of the full-blown passive-regen Drake. But it is fun to top killmails in a Drake, ahead of CS and BS.
Neena Valdi Art of War	Posted - 2007.12.06 09:47:00 - [80] Originally by: Flurren Edited by: Flurren on 04/12/2007 22:38:59 Edited by: Flurren on 04/12/2007 22:37:52 Its unsurprising you ignored the maths part of my post neena. The reason i say this is because unless you use calculations everything else in the game is an opinion. You can discuss the logical course of battles which is slightly more objective than simple opinions but still very opinion influenced but you fail to do even this. 1. Your calculations are wrong. I told you to stop playing theorycraft. 2. By this nerf Myrm was put UNDER the line as its gang role is inferior to other BC's. Maybe ask yourself why is everyone were in hurry toget rid of myrmidons? Perhaps, because they are able to recognize that this BC is not worth a peny anymore? Turn on your brain please next time before you post.
Gypsio III Darkness Inc.	Posted - 2007.12.06 10:00:00 - [81] Turn yours on. The Myrm is fine. It can do everything a Drake can do, and do those things better. Still. It ganks more. It tanks more. It's more ewar-resistant. It's more flexible. It's more mobile. It can fit tackle without gimping its tank.
Neena Valdi Art of War	Posted - 2007.12.06 10:06:00 - [82] Edited by: Neena Valdi on 06/12/2007 10:06:35 Originally by: Gypsio III Turn yours on. The Myrm is fine. It can do everything a Drake can do, and do those things better. Still. It ganks more. It tanks more. It's more ewar-resistant. It's more flexible. It's more mobile. It can fit tackle without gimping its tank. Sigh...1) EVE is not solo game 2) drone travel time; 3) blaster range <5km; 4) drones can be easily killed; 5) myrm tanks only while it have charges while drake can be easily passive tanked; 6) drake can be loaded with fof missiles while drones will shoot back only if were launched before you got aggroed; Drake >> myrmidon as it is trully best antisupport.
Inir Ishtori The Guardian Agency Guardian Federation	Posted - 2007.12.06 10:18:00 - [83] Edited by: Inir Ishtori on 06/12/2007 10:18:49 Originally by: Neena Valdi 1. 5mil = 4.5k of republic fleet emp M 2. Sigh... it's not like a myrmidon won't be using faction ammo with those 6 turrets isk for drones + isk for faction ammo >> isk for ammo alone
Gypsio III Darkness Inc.	Posted - 2007.12.06 11:08:00 - [84] Originally by: Neena Valdi Edited by: Neena Valdi on 06/12/2007 10:06:35 Originally by: Gypsio III Turn yours on. The Myrm is fine. It can do everything a Drake can do, and do those things better. Still. It ganks more. It tanks more. It's more ewar-resistant. It's more flexible. It's more mobile. It can fit tackle without gimping its tank. Sigh...1) EVE is not solo game 2) drone travel time; 3) blaster range <5km; 4) drones can be easily killed; 5) myrm tanks only while it have charges while drake can be easily passive tanked; 6) drake can be loaded with fof missiles while drones will shoot back only if were launched before you got aggroed; Drake >> myrmidon as it is trully best antisupport. Sigh indeed. 1) Inconsequential to this comparison. 2-3) Most non-fleet combat occurs at gates and at undock ramps - everyone starts within overheated web range, hence drone flight time and blaster range are largely irrelevant. Sentry drones also. 4) No-one is going to kill your drones in gang - they're going to shoot you instead. And remember, "Eve isn't solo game". 5) Passive-regen Myrm tanks better than passive-regen Drake, and can actually do something useful at the same time. Also, a passive-regen Drake is generally a waste of time in pvp - it's unnecessarily expensive and has gimped damage and cap - that's why I stated the passive-HP Drake above. 6) There are no FOFs for the "pvp" missiles - rockets, HAMs and torps. Deploying drones in time is hardly Challenge Anneka, come on. For fleet antisupport work, I wouldn't take either Drake or Myrm though.
Neena Valdi Art of War	Posted - 2007.12.06 11:25:00 - [85] No, really... this is not even funny. The amount of ignorance here is ridiculous. Originally by: Gypsio III 1) Inconsequential to this comparison. 2-3) Most non-fleet combat occurs at gates and at undock ramps - everyone starts within overheated web range, hence drone flight time and blaster range are largely irrelevant. Sentry drones also. Have you ever flew a myrmidon or dominix? Apparently not. In 90+% of cases the target will be at good 14+ kms away from you and up to 30ish if you and target jump through the gate. Myrmidon MWD speed is at about 1km/s. 10ish seconds to turn, then 10+ seconds to approach for your blaster range. By this time all other BC will be FAR ahead of you in damage done while you have to burn the cap from target to target. HH's do mere 2xx dps even with bonuses. Valk's do much less. Very often nowadays BS's have fitted 1 and more smartbombs. You may notice it in time, you may not notice it and your drones go pooooof. Even if you notice you can't put drones on such target so your dps is only dps from turrets. Originally by: Gypsio III 4) No-one is going to kill your drones in gang - they're going to shoot you instead. And remember, "Eve isn't solo game". Stop playing theorycraft. Originally by: Gypsio III 5) Passive-regen Myrm tanks better than passive-regen Drake, and can actually do something useful at the same time. Also, a passive-regen Drake is generally a waste of time in pvp - it's unnecessarily expensive and has gimped damage and cap - that's why I stated the passive-HP Drake above. Stop playing theorycraft. No one uses passive tanked myrmidons in pvp. Originally by: Gypsio III 6) There are no FOFs for the "pvp" missiles - rockets, HAMs and torps. Deploying drones in time is hardly Challenge Anneka, come on. Stop playing theorycraft. We are talking about drakes and heavy missiles. Originally by: Gypsio III For fleet antisupport work, I wouldn't take either Drake or Myrm though. Ofc you wouldn't as you have no clue apparently.

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